[Xenon]

The topic of dual wield pop up now and then. Probably because the SR5 rules around it are spread out and that there isn't much to read about it at all. I think it is time we gather all the thoughts in one thread and discuss different perspectives on the matter and hopefully reach some sort of conclusion how the rules actually work.

Thread to discuss single wield firearms (burst fire, attacking multiple targets etc) can be found here:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11992.0


So, first of all. What does the rules state?

Read for yourself:

Multiple Attacks p.164
A character may use a Free Action to attack multiple targets in a single action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 196) by splitting their dice pool. This action must be combined with a Fire Weapon Action, Throw Weapon Action, Melee Attack Action, Reckless Spellcasting, or Cast Spell Action.

• Can be used to attack multiple targets
• When you attack multiple targets you split pool
• No mentioning of attacking same target with multiple attacks.

Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto p.165
A character may fire a readied firearm in Semi-Automatic, Single-Shot, Burst-Fire, or Fully-Auto mode via a Simple Action (see Firearms, p. 424) but may not take any other attack actions in the same Action Phase. If a character has one weapon in each hand, he may fire once with each weapon by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 96); the offhand modifier applies (see Attacking Using Off-Hand Weapon, p. 178). When taken as Simple Actions, Burst Fire fires 3 bullets, while Full-Auto fires 6 bullets.

• No mentioning that you can attack multiple times if using one weapon with SA, SS, BF or FA
  
• Can attack two times if dual wield
  
• Offhand modifier apply if you dual wield
  
• Can attack multiple attacks if you dual wield (no mention of single wield)
  
• No mention that it have to be, or that it even can be, different targets.

Throw Weapon p.166
A character may throw a ready throwing weapon (see Ready Weapon, p. 165) by taking a Simple Action. The character may not take any other attack actions in the same Action Phase. Multiple readied throwing weapons can be thrown at a target within Short or Medium range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 196).

• You can attack multiple times at ONE target
  
• There is no mentioning that you need or are even allowed to attack multiple targets. just multiple attacks.
  
• No mentioning about dual wielding

Fire Full-Auto Weapon p.167
A character may fire a readied firearm in Full-Auto fire mode via a Complex Action (see Firearms, p. 424). If a character has one weapon in each hand, he may fire once with each weapon by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 196). Off-hand modifier applies (see Attacker Using Off-Hand Weapon, p. 178). When fired as a Complex Action, Full-Auto uses 10 bullets. Remember the effects of cumulative recoil when using these fire modes. And good fragging luck!

• No mentioning that you can attack multiple times if using one weapon with FA
  
• Can attack two times if dual wield
  
• Offhand modifier apply if you dual wield
  
• No mention that it have to be, or that it even can be, different targets.

Fire Long Burst or Semi-Auto Burst p.167
A character may fire a readied firearm in Long Burst or Semi-Auto Burst via a Complex Action (see Firearms, p. 424). A character may attack multiple targets within Short or Medium range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 196). If a character has one weapon in each hand, he may fire once with each weapon by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 167). Off-hand modifier applies (see Attacker Using Off-Hand Weapon, p. 178). Remember the effects of cumulative recoil when using these fire modes.

• Can attack multiple targets (not just multiple attacks) if using one weapon with Long-BF or SA-Burst
  
• Can attack two times if dual wield
  
• Offhand modifier apply if you dual wield
  
• No mention that it have to be, or that it even can be, different targets.

Melee attack p.167
A character may make a melee attack by taking a Complex Action (see Melee Combat, p. 184). A character may also attack multiple targets within melee range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 196).

• There is no mentioning about single or dual wield
  
• You can attack multiple targets with a melee attack

There is more text (and other rules) on another page in the book:

Single Shot (SS) p.178
Firing a Single Shot (SS) weapon uses a Simple Action that cannot be combined with any other attacking Simple Action in the same Action Phase. SS weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action if the attacker is wielding two such weapons. Single Shot weapons include bolt-action rifles, single-action revolvers, pump-action shotguns, lever-action rifles, and some large weapons that need extra time to chamber a fresh round due to the cartridge’s size. Single Shot fire assumes another round is readied with each shot as long as rounds are available in the gun.

• Can only dual wield if you have TWO single shot weapons
  
• Can use Multiple Attacks if dual wield
  
• Does not mention you can use Multiple Attacks if you single wield a SS weapon

Semi-Automatic (SA) p.178
Semi-automatic weapons fire a round every time the trigger is pulled and automatically chamber a fresh round after each shot. Semi-Automatic weapons fire a single round with a Simple Action but cannot combine that with any other attack Action in the same Action Phase. Semi-automatic weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action if the shooter has two semi-automatic weapons. They also have the option of using a Semi-Automatic Burst (see below). See Firing Mode Table (p. 180) for attack information.

• Can only dual wield if you have TWO semi-automatic weapons, not using SA-burst
  
• Can use Multiple Attacks if dual wield
  
• Does not mention you can use Multiple Attacks if you single wield a SA weapon, not using SA-burst

Semi-Automatic Burst p.179
Semi-Automatic Burst mode is three semi-automatic shots taken in quick succession. Semi-Automatic weapons can fire a burst of three rounds with a Complex Action. With more shots going downrange they increase the chance that a bullet will hit. Semi-Automatic bursts can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst. See Firing Mode Table (p. 180) for attack information

• No mentioning that you are allowed to dual wield if you are shooting SA-burst
  
• Can attack multiple targets with SA-burst

Burst Fire p.179
Burst Fire (BF) weapons are usually SMGs or assault rifles, but some pistols and shotguns can be modified for this mode. In burst-fire mode a gun rapidly fires three bullets every time the trigger is pulled. Firing a weapon in Burst Fire mode is a Simple Action that cannot be combined with any other attack Simple Action in the same Action Phase. Burst Fire weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst. See Firing Mode Table (p. 180) for attack information

• No mentioning that you are allowed to dual wield if you are shooting BF
  
• Can attack multiple targets with BF

Long Burst p.179
Long Burst (LB) mode is really just quickly firing in Burst Fire mode. In this mode, a gun fires two three-round bursts in rapid succession. Firing a weapon in Long Burst mode is a Complex Action. Long Burst weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst. See Firing Mode Table (p. 180) for attack information

• No mentioning that you are allowed to dual wield if you are shooting Long-BF
  
• Can attack multiple targets with Long-BF

Full-Auto p.179
Weapons that can fire in Full-Auto (FA) mode can throw bullets for as long as the attacker keeps the trigger pulled and the rounds last. Full-Auto weapons can be fired as a Simple Action, firing 6 bullets, or a Complex Action, firing 10 bullets. Full-auto weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst. See Firing Mode Table (p. 180) for attack information.

• No mentioning that you are allowed to dual wield if you are shooting FA
  
• Can attack multiple targets with FA

Multiple Attacks p.196
Characters sometimes want to really put on the hurting in a single Action Phase and can choose to attack more than once in a single Action Phase by using the Multiple Attacks Free Action. This action represents both attacking multiple times from a single melee weapon and attacking with two different weapons (firearms or melee). The attacker’s dice pool is calculated with all modifiers (Wound, Environmental, Situational, and the full recoil of all attacks if it’s a ranged attack) and then split as evenly as possible between all attacks, and each attack is handled separately. (Keep in mind as the dice pool gets smaller the chances of a glitch rise.) Edge spent on this test adds into the pool before it is divided. The total number of attacks you can make in a single Action Phase is limited to one-half the attacker’s Combat Skill.

• You can take this action to attack multiple times if you dual wield firearm or melee
  
• There is no mentioning that you need or are even allowed to attack multiple targets. just multiple attacks.
  
• The max number of targets is skill/2 (one target is less than skill/2)
  
• Can explicit attack multiple targets with a single melee weapon (not with a firearm?)

[Xenon]

what I gather from all of that is the following:

Multiple Attacks must always be on multiple targets. The most obvious reason to interpret it this way is because of the description of melee weapons. Multiple Attacks are described as attacking multiple times with one melee weapon or with multiple weapons, be they melee or firearms. You used this to assume that since single Firearms weren't mentioned, this must be referring to attacking one person more than once. Yet the description of the Melee attack says that using multiple attacks is hitting multiple people, regardless of whether you have one melee weapon or two.

Melee weapons can attack more than one person no matter what. The only way a gun can do this is to fire more than one bullet at a time. That's why the descriptions for firing weapons in a mode that shoots one at a time specify that you need two guns to use Multiple Attacks, while the descriptions of the bursts say you can use Multiple Attacks with one gun.

When splitting your attack from a burst, every target gets the same defense penalty. I have gathered this because it doesn't specifically say you split the penalty up by the targets, and because burst defense penalties work on a similar system to the Shotgun rules, which does explicitly say that all targets in range of the spread take the same penalty.

The total number of attacks you can make in a Combat Phase is always half your Combat Skill, regardless of what weapon you're using or how you're making the attacks. This information is presented on a separate line, as a stand alone sentence within the Multiple Attacks definition. It would thus apply equally to everything involving the Multiple Attacks action.

Logically, you can only hit a maximum number of people in the same burst as the number of bullets you fired. This should go without saying, but the book really should have said so anyway.

[Xenon]

• Multiple Attacks p.164 state you can use Multiple Attacks to attack multiple targets.
• Throw Weapon p.166 state you can use Multiple Attacks to attack a single target multiple times.
• Attacks on p.167 state you can use Multiple Attacks to attack twice (nothing about multiple targets, multiple times on a single target or if both are allowed).
• Attacks on p.178 state you can use Multiple Attacks to attack twice (nothing about multiple targets, multiple times on a single target or if both are allowed).
• Multiple Attacks p.196 state that you can attack Multiple Attacks (nothing about multiple targets or multiple times on a single target).

In other games; if you are allowed to dual wield firearms you are allowed to fire at one target with both weapons at the same time (this is the "norm"). In some rare cases you are allowed to split your attention and attack with two weapons at two different targets, but that would normally be an edge case where you would have much less chance to hit.

In SR5 you are:

• Allowed to use Multiple Attacks to hit the same target (with throwing weapons if you split your pool for each attack).
• Allowed to make two attacks if you dual wield. Offhand modifiers apply.
• Only allowed to use Multiple Attacks to hit different targets (not multiple attacks on the same target) if you use a single weapon with various burst or full auto modes

- I see nothing that stop you from attack two different targets (one with each weapon) if you dual wield.
- And, since you obviously are allowed to use the Multiple Attacks to attack a single target more than once, I see nothing that stop you from attacking one single target twice if you dual wield. This, however, is up to debate.

This quote stop us from attack one single target twice if you dual wield:

Does the Multiple Attacks free action allow you to attack one target twice in a single action phase, or is it always applied as attacking multiple targets at the same time?

Multiple targets at the same time, not one target twice.

There is very little about dual wielding melee weapons.

There is a offhand penalty for using a melee weapon in your offhand unless you have the ambidextrous quality and p.196 mention that Multiple Attacks can be used to attack multiple times (not explicit multiple targets) with a single weapon as well as attacking multiple times with two weapons (firearms or melee). p.167 melee attacks state you can use a single weapon to attack multiple targets (no mentioning about attacking same target twice or what you can or can not do if you dual wield two melee weapons).



IF we can reach the conclusion that you are allowed to attack the same target twice with two firearms THEN I don't see why you should not be allowed to do the same if you dual wield two melee weapons. Splitting pool is after all a very harsh penalty and often never worth it in the first place.

Code: [Select]

Type  One hand attack      Targets  Action Pool  Shots Dodge Notes
====  ==================== ======= ======= ===== ===== ===== ============================
Melee Melee Attack            2    Complex  /2    N/A   -0   
SS    Single Shot             2    Simple   /2    1+1   -0   recoil apply
SA    Semi-Automatic          2    Simple   /2    1+1   -0   
SA    Semi-Automatic Burst    2    Complex  /2    3+3   -2   
BF    Burst                   2    Simple   /2    3+3   -5   
BF    Long Burst              2    Complex  /2    6+6   -5   
FA    Full Auto               2    Simple   /2    6+6   -5   
FA    Long Full Auto          2    Complex  /2   10+10  -9   
Edit Post updated to reflect that we can not take the free action to attack the same target twice with dualwielding

[Xenon]

Questions left to answer:

• Can you dual wield two firearms with different fire-modes?
• Can you attack one target twice if you dual wield two firearms? - No you can not.
  
• Can you benefit from Laser Sight and/or Smartgun while you dual wield two firearms?
• Can you dual wield two melee weapons?
• Can you attack one target twice if you dual wield melee weapons? - No you can not.
  
• Is there any advantage of dual wield melee weapon over single wield melee weapon?
  
• Can you dual wield one firearm and a melee weapon?
• Can you attack with both a firearm and a melee weapon?
• Can you attack with a firearm and take a parry interrupt action with a melee weapon?

[Michael Chandra]

I asked for FAQ clarification on the missing information here. My personal guesses:

Different Fire Modes: I assume the rule will be you must fire both in the same type of Action.
Targetting the same target: I assume yes.
Dualwielding melee: Detailed rules regarding this will likely be in whatever book the gun-part of Arsenal ends up in, including limitations such as "no dual-wielding weapons with a reach above 1" like in SR4.
Targetting the same target: I assume yes will be in that book, with the additional -1 defense penalty like in SR4.
Dualwielding melee+firearm: No way.

[Palladion]

Using smartgun or laser sight bonuses for dual wielding firearms. I do not believe it is explicitly stated if these bonuses cannot be used while firing two weapons (as it is in previous edition).

[forgarn]

Questions left to answer:

• Can you dual wield one firearm and a melee weapon?

I would say yes you can dual  wield this way as long as you understand that you cannot attack with both at the same time since a melee attack is a complex action and shooting a gun for the most part is a simple action.

[Xenon]

Using smartgun or laser sight bonuses for dual wielding firearms. I do not believe it is explicitly stated if these bonuses cannot be used while firing two weapons (as it is in previous edition).

Good catch. Ill add that one.

Questions left to answer:

• Can you dual wield one firearm and a melee weapon?

I would say yes you can dual  wield this way as long as you understand that you cannot attack with both at the same time since a melee attack is a complex action and shooting a gun for the most part is a simple action.

How about attacking with your ranged weapon, but taking an interrupt parry action with your melee weapon...?
Ill add that one as well.

[Os_V]

When splitting your attack from a burst, every target gets the same defense penalty. I have gathered this because it doesn't specifically say you split the penalty up by the targets, and because burst defense penalties work on a similar system to the Shotgun rules, which does explicitly say that all targets in range of the spread take the same penalty.

I believe this is wrong. With this, executing Multiple Attack Burst-Fire with one weapon would be much better, than using Multiple Attacks while dual-wield same weapons. PC won't get any bonuses from dual-wielding and making two burst attacks over splitting one burst attack, exept doubling recoil penalty and doubling ammo expense (which aren'ta bonuses anyone seek for, lol). So, dual-wielding submachine guns, for example, is pretty much useless.
Dual-Wielding Burst-Fire will make sense when you split the penalties from autofire. I acccept that my reasons are more of groundless rationalization than of rule interpretation (and my Engrish is probably Ogrish :\), but still. I think that Burst-Fire rules don't work similar to Shotgun ones. When applying autofire penalties to target's Defence, you apply strictly same amount of penal dice, as number of bullets you fired (after the first). This is more clear when you look to Not Enough Bullets section. Accoring to this, I assume that PC must divide the amount of bullets fired in same manner as his Attack dice, and resolve this Multiple Attack as two (or more) Burst-Fire attacks with Not Enough Bullets.

If use this, Burst-Firing from two weapons (and making more shots) will actually make some sense.

[Xenon]

good point.
(I will make a similar thread with rule texts and analysis tomorrow - that focus on burst fire and different attacks you can do with different weapon modes).

a few notes;
1) if it is ok to attack the same target twice with both weapons, then this is probably the major advantage of using dual wield as single wield only seem to be allowed to hit one target once (or multiple target once each).

2) another argument that was raised was that one bonus to dual wield would be that you can hit two targets that are spread far away, while full auto sweep would probably have to hit people next to each other in a cone (found no rules to support that, but the reasoning make sense).

3) in SR2 (or if it was SR3) you would waste one bullet per meter between targets. unless you had a smartgun system (then you would essentially become Robocop)

4) one argument to keep the dodge modifier is that there is still a lot of bullets in the air in a small area

5) are targets required to be at short or medium range even when you take a multiple attack  with one weapon in BF, simple FA or complex FA as well? or is that really only a rule when you use Long-BF and SA-Burst.


having said that. most correct would be to split bullets with number of targets (round down) and give them [number of bullets] - 1 as negative dodge modifier; as you suggested. this would let you put more lead at targets with dual wield (but only two targets or one target twice), making it harder to dodge. but also harder to control the recoil (negative attack modifiers from recoil and splitting the pool = higher odds you will glitch).
- make common sense
- no rule to support it.

[Xenon]

added table to my 3rd post in this thread (scroll up).
will update it if things change.

let me know if there is something you disagree with please.

[Xenon]

We got a response from Aaron in the FAQ thread which indicate that you are not allowed to attack the same target twice (which would mean you can not use the Free Action with dual wield to attack the same target twice).

Does the Multiple Attacks free action allow you to attack one target twice in a single action phase, or is it always applied as attacking multiple targets at the same time?

Multiple targets at the same time, not one target twice.

His word weight heavy imo, so i will edit my OP with this information until I get other confirmation.

(However, this does not fully explain the rule about Throwing weapons that state you can take the Free Action to attack a target multiple times...)

[Cormroc]

I would be inclined to say that you can dual-wield weapons with different fire modes, you just have to use the same action for both. So you could fire a single shot with a pistol and  a burst with a SMG as a simple action, or a SA Burst and a Long Burst as a complex.  However this raises several new questions/complications on current questions, esp. if the weapons are not identical.

How are defense penalties applied in this situation? We don't seem to have a consensus on how this works in the basic case. Depending on the consensus achieved this question may be fairly simple or somewhat more complex.
If you are have different skill levels for each weapon how do you calculate your dice pool before the split?
Can you use 2 smartgun systems simultaneously? If only 1 weapon has smartgun do you still get dicepool bonus?
While DW can you shoot at more than 2 targets? How does accuracy apply if you are? Damage? Even if you can only shoot at 2 targets total the rules don't seem to support declaring a specific weapon being fired at each target so the questions still apply.

[Xenon]

It is currently not even sure you are allowed to attack the same target at all if you wield one weapon in each hand...

what we do know from reading the rule text is that you can attack two individual targets, once with each weapon. calculate all modifiers first, then split the pool with the number of targets you are attacking (2).

if it is allowed to use two different weapons (not sure it is) then you probably calculate all modifiers and apply it to both pools and then you split booth pools with the number of targets you are attacking (2).

[Raiden]

well, tbh there is no advantage to dual wielding in this case, should their be? game wise I believe so, realistically? unless its melee then probable not. but then again if you have to smgs pointed at one dude, its usually better than one smg. even if the one lets you aim better :p