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High Concept and Shadowrun

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Longshot23

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« Reply #60 on: <11-09-10/1028:54> »
Leaving the Kane bagging alone now . . .

The SR3 Companion had a few ideas about alternate campaign premises: 

a DocWagon High Threat Response team;
some kind of media outfit;
a SpecWar game;
a cops game;
some vague all-magic game.

SOTA64 presented the idea of an espionage-themed campaign.  With organisations like the Atlantean Foundation and DIMR, arcano-archaeology is possible.

I guess my point is, an SR campaign doesn't have to be about grinding the PCs faces into the dark gritty parts and racking up body counts - that's what Cyberpunk is for.

Angelone

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« Reply #61 on: <11-09-10/1154:53> »
As FastJack said, Kane doesn't need anyone to defend him, his story does it for him. He started off in the 50s as a CAS pilot, whose girlfriend gets captured by the Azzies, he goes buckwild on them until she is freed. Then he realizes the lifestyle he was leading was fun and profitable and becomes a full time pirate. He commits so much damage he's on 20ish nations most wanted lists. He challenges Gingerbread Man another pirate who has a TV show, nothing comes out of that IIRC. At some point Kane gets his own show and he's still active. Honestly how do you top that?
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FastJack

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« Reply #62 on: <11-09-10/1209:21> »
The thing with Gingerbread Man was that Kane was on his way to the fight, found a ship spoiling to be raided and did that instead.

What I'd like to know is if they are going to talk more about how Gingy's currently lost in the Bermuda Triangle...

Qemuel

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« Reply #63 on: <11-09-10/1353:06> »
That may be why I settled on an Occult Investigator as my SR4 character - kind of straddles the line.  Besides, can you imagine Jim Rockford or Magnum PI or even MacGyver with magic?  ;D

The concept that the individual matters less than the group also plays a part.  Funnily enough, the corps play this up more than governments.

I also like a quote from Angel: "We live as though the world was as it should be, to show it what it can be."

I'm kind of surprised that no one leapt to Kane's defence though  ::)

I really like the investigator concept, too.  My 2nd SR4A character was based on a combination of that archetype, Dresden (see my avatar) from Dresden Files, and me.  One of these days, I'll post him up for feedback.

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #64 on: <11-09-10/1550:30> »

I guess my point is, an SR campaign doesn't have to be about grinding the PCs faces into the dark gritty parts and racking up body counts - that's what Cyberpunk is for.


Funny you say that since my whole post about characters with higher aspirations than a paycheck was more or less paraphrased from Cyberpunk. At the end of that day, though, the players have a lot of room to decide what their characters care about. The more fully they're fleshed out, the more reasons they will have to do things besides pay the rent.

Usda Beph

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« Reply #65 on: <11-12-10/0813:24> »
Yeah Our Sniper (Dust) uses gel rounds mostly in on a mission. Primarily because unconcious gurads and executives draw a lesser punishment than dead ones. ;D
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Mystic

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« Reply #66 on: <11-12-10/0916:34> »
Yeah Our Sniper (Dust) uses gel rounds mostly in on a mission. Primarily because unconcious gurads and executives draw a lesser punishment than dead ones. ;D

Funny, as a merc, I usually get paid more for the opposite.  ;)
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Longshot23

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« Reply #67 on: <11-13-10/0252:41> »
Yeah Our Sniper (Dust) uses gel rounds mostly in on a mission. Primarily because unconcious gurads and executives draw a lesser punishment than dead ones. ;D

Wouldn't calibre and muzzle velocity for sniper rifle pretty much guarantee a kill?

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #68 on: <11-13-10/0904:22> »
Only if it were real life.

Usda Beph

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« Reply #69 on: <11-16-10/0958:22> »
Yeah Our Sniper (Dust) uses gel rounds mostly in on a mission. Primarily because unconcious gurads and executives draw a lesser punishment than dead ones. ;D

Wouldn't calibre and muzzle velocity for sniper rifle pretty much guarantee a kill?

Comes rather close in game but the rules (and dusts dice) make it not as easy a kill as you'd think.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #70 on: <11-16-10/1843:52> »
Which leads me to my other big problem at Marvel (and DC)...  Editors that don't fraggin' edit.  One of the biggest complaints about Civil War was inconsistency between the various titles...
They made some pretty serious changes after CW, but especially was that they got everyone who was going to work on an event tie-in access to everyone else's scripts--which is why Siege was so consistent that it was pointless because of all of the redundant redundancy of seeing the same stuff said/done with slight variations in angle and style by different artists.

SOTA64 presented the idea of an espionage-themed campaign.  With organisations like the Atlantean Foundation and DIMR, arcano-archaeology is possible.
*Scoff*

I like to think there's a reason Games of State is basically being rewritten six years after its release as compared to Shadowbeat's almost-20 years. GoS was kind of not really okay at being a primer for an alternative campaign like the ones presented in the back of the SRComps. I didn't write an 8-page PDF titled "Espionage and the Shadows" for my fucking health. It was because where it matters--how espionage affects runners and can be integrated into existing campaigns--was utterly nonexistent. Not to mention that it reads like an IRAB (I Read A Book) high school report on intelligence (Actually, that's not true because I literally did write a high school paper on 1986 as the Year of the Spy and the most prominent American traitors who got busted [or almost did in one case] that year). Speaking of which, I learned about a month ago that my boss actually knew Ed Howard when he defected and that learning that Howard dodged the CIA and FBI in Santa Fe and managed to disappear into the aether was one of the more surreal moments in his own rather interesting and storied life.

Point being, and how this ties into the OP is this: As I said to another writer on SG, if we do our job right you will be able to run any spy campaign you like from A to Z (with A being a very notable High Concept  franchise and Z being another very distinct one).

But really almost all of SR is already espionage. Shadowruns are themselves inherently acts of covert espionage of some undefined sort. If you can't incorporate concept that is the title of the game then you're doing it wrong. GoS did it wrong, and by God I intend to see that SG will not.

Also, I've been saying that Dunk and the DR were just as evil, even if their intentions were good, since 1996.
« Last Edit: <11-16-10/1915:49> by Crimsondude »

Longshot23

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« Reply #71 on: <11-16-10/2034:47> »
Which leads me to my other big problem at Marvel (and DC)...  Editors that don't fraggin' edit.  One of the biggest complaints about Civil War was inconsistency between the various titles...
They made some pretty serious changes after CW, but especially was that they got everyone who was going to work on an event tie-in access to everyone else's scripts--which is why Siege was so consistent that it was pointless because of all of the redundant redundancy of seeing the same stuff said/done with slight variations in angle and style by different artists.

SOTA64 presented the idea of an espionage-themed campaign.  With organisations like the Atlantean Foundation and DIMR, arcano-archaeology is possible.
*Scoff*

I like to think there's a reason Games of State is basically being rewritten six years after its release as compared to Shadowbeat's almost-20 years. GoS was kind of not really okay at being a primer for an alternative campaign like the ones presented in the back of the SRComps. I didn't write an 8-page PDF titled "Espionage and the Shadows" for my fucking health. It was because where it matters--how espionage affects runners and can be integrated into existing campaigns--was utterly nonexistent. Not to mention that it reads like an IRAB (I Read A Book) high school report on intelligence (Actually, that's not true because I literally did write a high school paper on 1986 as the Year of the Spy and the most prominent American traitors who got busted [or almost did in one case] that year). Speaking of which, I learned about a month ago that my boss actually knew Ed Howard when he defected and that learning that Howard dodged the CIA and FBI in Santa Fe and managed to disappear into the aether was one of the more surreal moments in his own rather interesting and storied life.

Point being, and how this ties into the OP is this: As I said to another writer on SG, if we do our job right you will be able to run any spy campaign you like from A to Z (with A being a very notable High Concept  franchise and Z being another very distinct one).

But really almost all of SR is already espionage. Shadowruns are themselves inherently acts of covert espionage of some undefined sort. If you can't incorporate concept that is the title of the game then you're doing it wrong. GoS did it wrong, and by God I intend to see that SG will not.

Also, I've been saying that Dunk and the DR were just as evil, even if their intentions were good, since 1996.

yeah, well, the stuff in SOTA64 wasn't much more than an appetiser.  Sort of like letting [us] know what other options and possibillties exist.

Your writing is great stuff.  Agree about most of SR being intell/covert ops to one extent or another.

Not sure I agree re Dunk etc - but that's okay.  There's room for both our viewpoints.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #72 on: <11-17-10/1335:55> »
Well, perhaps I am biased. I still have the Encyclopedia of Espionage sitting in a pile in my kitchen and a folder full of declassified manuals and documents from the National Security Archive as reference for campaigns I was running when SOTA64 came out, and so a lot of the stuff wasn't new to me. I never really liked Szeto's writing (apart from things like the Atomic Kiva in SoNA being based on completely made-up nuke tests) because it reads like a textbook. I will never understand the line in his CAS chapter about why his narrator didn't get why people keep asking about canon militaries (Uh, gee. For character backgrounds? Nah...). I'm more interested in things like the fact that four of the five women CIA officers who immediately come to mind were mothers, and the one who wasn't was the one who was in the least amount of danger (One was pregnant on ops in the Middle East. Another was the team leader of the CIA team killed in a suicide bombing in Khost, Afghanistan).

There are three quotes I keep in mind as I write SG:

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"Espionage is always political"—Zviad Baakovi (as written by Greg Rucka and Eric Trautmann), Checkmate v2 #23. DC Comics (2008).

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"You see, everyone’s been treating this like it’s a game of chess. But you only play honourable games if you don’t care about the pieces. If lives and nations are at stake--one cheats."—Pete Wisdom (written by Paul Cornell), Captain Britain and MI13 #15 (Marvel Comics. 2009).

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"Look, killing isn't about weapons... It's about the humans who use them."—Victor Bout, New York Times Magazine, August 17, 2003.

Now, I'm not trying to dog on Szeto or anyone. What his writing may lack in elegance, at the very least makes up for in useful detail. But I have a different perspective and writing style when it comes to Shadowrun, and that's how I approach things. Because the policy on Shadowland was that canon had to be adhered to to make sure everyone was on the same page even when it became clear that we didn't need to worry about new people trying to jump in, there was no end of bitching about some of the canon aspects. If you look at the foreword of TNF, there is an outright backhanded compliment to the System Failure writing team. However, that campaign is evidence that the true value of the material is in the gaps that the players are left to fill. Everything that we did except for one scene description was rules legal and canon (none of which, AFAIK, has been retconned or contradicted) because the material hasn't delved into the details of what happened during that time period in SR lore.

I can honestly say that for as much as some plots drove me and others nuts at the time that we were able to do some of our best gaming ever because we still had the leeway and opportunity to build our own adventures from that. That is what I'm hoping to do with my writing, and what I am trying to say is that the books are just the beginning of the adventure--and it took almost 20 years for me to consciously realize that's how I'd been playing. I thought Ghostwalker was kind of stupid; that he appears out of this rift a mile from the White House, scares the shit out of everyone, then disappears only to emerge and pull a Godzilla on Denver. Only instead of destroying it, he becomes its political governor. But can you imagine all the different jobs a runner could pull off while that was going on? Because it was going on? Those are character-defining events. Superheroes and villains have emerged from lesser spectacles.

In the same thread that lead to the creation of this one, someone was talking about how there's nothing for runners to do in Lagos. A third of Feral Cities is about Lagos. That's patently false. Aside from that it's just incomprehensible to me. Now, I made my opinion about SR's Africa pretty clear on my tumblr, but I now look at it as a work in progress rather than something to just bitch about. However, maybe it's just the perspective seems off.

One of the things that I like about this forum and the power of DS is that it provides an opportunity to connect authors and fans. I never really appreciated that until now from the other side. I understand intellectually that not everyone has been following espionage or certain other subjects like I have, and whether one realizes it or not that informs writing styles and can make or break a book. I get frustrated to the point of jackassery (see above) about some stuff because I already know it, or I know the subject better than the author. I think that was the issue with Szeto, where so many of our apparent interests/expertise overlaps a lot of the time it's "Yeah. Yeah. Get to the point." The same is true with Bobby Derie in certain areas. In others I don't get the joke (and his writing seems to be full of little references and jokes about stuff that go over my head). But other people don't, and it's a careful dance to not lose the reader by being too inside baseball on tradecraft, but also keeping a piece on military fresh for, say, the many vets and active military SR players out there.

I think Jay Levine's chapter on Hong Kong in Runner Havens is fantastic because it really paints a picture. And part of that is in the fact that it is self-referential, and really emphasizes that everything is connected by not being afraid to discuss something twice. It has some pretty high concept ideas like the Yama Kings controlling Kowloon, TMs backing up their own memories (which doesn't have rules for it, but it doesn't have rules prohibiting it either), and the Legion of Doom swamp base on Lantau Island. I've never been there, and neither has he, but I'd swear he had been if I didn't know better.

Grant Morrison made a memorable comment at SDCC this year when he discussed how people start losing their ability to accept fiction at face value as they get older. That sometimes you have to accept that characters are just that, and that to a certain extent you have to let it be what it is. I don't pine for the older cyberpunk days I grew up in. I accept that we're living in the dystopia that they feared would come. But I also look at the course of human history and know that life is getting better overall. Topps could kill the game tomorrow and there will still be one guy a hundred years from now who's still running a campaign either set in 2172, 2050, or 4645 just like there are now. For every moment I've forgotten it's a game set in a fictional world when something is wrong or different (and this used to drive me nuts about military and security stuff) I now know that I can take a fistful of those magnetic word tiles and throw them at a fridge, and then pair off words and probably come up with the name of a real DOD special access program. I can then pluck three words from a hat of tradecraft disciplines, agencies and general mission goals and I assure you the result would be a real program. So who the fuck cares if the White Lions were made up for one line in a 15 year-old SR2 book. I bet there's a SAP somewhere with that name.
« Last Edit: <11-17-10/1426:41> by Crimsondude »

Longshot23

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« Reply #73 on: <11-18-10/0629:48> »
@Crimsondude:

I get the impression that I'd either love or hate playing under your GMing.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #74 on: <11-19-10/1211:14> »
Well, if you could deal with my being a bit flighty at times, I assume that you'd like it. I collaborate with my players on a lot of things, and the one thing that was great about having a lot of time to spend on a single game is that it gives a lot of opportunity for creative turns and alterations as the game/campaign went on.

That said, my official policy is to try and kill the PCs. However, that never actually happened, but it's come close. And of course that ended up with a new revenge-based run after the PCs recovered.