[Crimsondude]

A lesson I was well-advised of recently IRL.

[FastJack]

Yeah... Grant's recent turn with Batman leaves me thinking he's leaving the book in a straitjacket. Batman, INC. Really?

[Critias]

Batman, INC. Really?

LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, can't hear you!  LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!

[FastJack]

Batman, INC. Really?

LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, can't hear you!  LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!

[Nomad Zophiel]

See, compared to The Invisibles or Filth he's the picture of sanity now. Totally screwing up the plotline of favorite characters is a time honored tradition of new writers on big titles.

[Critias]

I think quite a bit of the recent shenanigans has to do with the nature of the short-term contracting that's become all the rage in comics lately.  Claremont wrote for the X-Men for 17 years.  When you look at the things that team did from 1975 to 1991, there's a general cohesion to the overall plot, there's a surprising amount of consistency to the characters, there's a genuine feeling of teamwork, of caring for the characters, of logic and reason to the broad story arc.  When something happened to the X-Men, you knew that he'd planned it, maybe even planted clues earlier, and that the follow-up would make that ______ (whatever event) matter, in later issues.

You don't get that any more.

We're lucky, as readers, if someone's on board our favorite title for six issues, nowadays.  It takes 'em an issue or two to get running (and maybe change around the roster, while they're at it!), we get two or three issues of reasonable storytelling with consistent character personalities and power levels, and then in the last issue or two every single one of these jackwagons has to make a splash (or, worse yet, he does it on his way into the title, five months earlier), in order to make headlines and get the comic reported in mainstream media outlets about Captain America getting shot, Spidey going public with his identity, or Superman getting a haircut, or Batman dying, or Wonder Woman's swanky new jacket, or someone being gay all along, or whatever.  

It'd be like if every single new freelancer for Shadowrun decided they just had to out Fastjack as an Immortal Elf Vampire shaman of Cthulu, let us know that Dunkie took over Lofwyr's body at the moment of his death all those years ago, that JR Ewing changed his name to Damien Knight in the 1980's and has been drinking the blood of virgins to stay alive, and that uh oh, look out, all of Shadowrun canon so far has actually been a detailed holodeck simulation, a trick played on every PC out there, and we've all been secretly riding around on the USS Enterprise this whole time...all because every freelancer wanted to be famous, wanted his book to be popular (and it's easier to be controversial than good), and wanted to "leave his mark" on the title before moving on to other projects.

I miss continuity in my comics.  I miss the same guy helming the ship for years and years, telling a good story and just letting the results speak for themselves.  

[FastJack]

Everything Critias said +1000.

It's really ironic too, because they have created the new positions of Chief Creative Officer (Geoff Johns, DC; Joe Quesada, Marvel) to monitor continuity. So, they put two guys in charge of the biggest continuity messes (Johns brought back Hal Jordan and Barry Allen and was responsible for Infinite Crisis; Quesada... well, what didn't he do?) to keep everyone on track.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Its also an accidental side-effect of the industry. A certain "cutting edge" company will print absolutely anything author X pitches them. It makes sense because author X wrote their best selling title ever. Anything with his name on it will sell great. Its money in the bank. He gets to be as cray as he wants because it will always sell. Same thing in more mainstream titles, big authors sell copies, so they have a lot of leeway for frakking up the storyline. Someone new to the industry has to play it more conservative until his name sells copies on its own.

When a new author pitches a concept, its immediately compared to author X's One Big Title. If it looks like it would appeal to the same people who read One Big Title, its given a green light. If it sells, it stays. So for the last 15-20 years, the titles they heavily promote are reminiscent of One Big Title. When those succeed it further reinforces the type of titles that get a greenlight. So to cute your teeth with this company, you have to start by writing something like One Big Title. Once that's under your belt and you have name recognition you can pitch Your Own Cray Big Title.

[Usda Beph]

Patrick, please. I know it's shorter, but it's also something reserved for family and REALLY close friends.

Patrick it is then.

[Bull]

I should note, Critias, one thing in your comments...  Captain America getting shot.  Ed Brubaker has been on Cap for since the current series launched in 2004, and he'd been on the title for two years when he shot Cap.  He's publicly stated that he had something like this planned all along, and tying it into Civil War just moved his timetable up a little bit, and gave it a little more punch at the same time.  He also penned Cap Reborn, is still writing Captain America (Now starring Bucky), and is writing two other series that feature Steve Rogers (Super SOldier and Secret Avengers).  So, at least in one corner of the Marvel U, there's a bit of consistency.

You have a very valid point about the others though.  I'd point out that Spidey was being mainly written by JM Strazynski and had been for several years when he revealed his identity, but that was, I suspect, editor fiat.  JMS has commented about editorial mucking around in his stories a few times.

This is definitely a complaint I agree with though with comics.  I loath both the current "Decompressed storytelling" that became all the rage (It's reigned back a bit since the first half of the decade thankfully, but seriously, remember the days when comics could fit an entire storyline into 1 or two comics?  Now it takes 4 to 6 issues to tell that same story) as well as the "write 6 issues and go work on something else" thing.

I really appreciated the Brand New Day stuff they did with SPidey for one reason:  Having a solid, hands on editor (Steve Wacker) coordinating the various teams that were doing the 3 Times a Month publishing schedule really did help give the title some stability and cohesiveness for the two years (and 36+ issues). 

Which leads me to my other big problem at Marvel (and DC)...  Editors that don't fraggin' edit.  One of the biggest complaints about Civil War was inconsistency between the various titles...  The exact same scene would play out in multiple comics, and it would be a little bit different in each one (if we're lucky, a couple times it was a good deal different).  Or we'd see two different-but-similar events take place in different comics, but it would play out very differently each time.  (I think Steve and Tony met to talk and try and make peace three different times in different comics, and each one was completely different and ignored the other ones).  This all gets laid on the feet of Tom Brevoort (IIRC), who pretty much admitted this when called out about it in an interview, saying that he was "Giving the writers each their freedom to tell the stories in their own way".  Which basically means he wasn't doing one of his jobs, which is to coordinate and edit the comics for consistency!

Sorry, major pet peeve of mine there...

Anyway..  Yeah.  I'm still a huge comic fan, but... Not a fan of the crazy, or lazy editing, lazy writing, or any of that.

Bull

[Longshot23]

One problem is the mindset of the SR world, that's been pretty much hardwired into it from day one.  The all-but 'end justifies the means, whatever makes us a stack of cred and gets us through the run' viewpoint.  Admittedly it holds with runners being at the 'bottom' of society, but personally I like my characters to be more high-minded.  When the world got Evo and Horizon, it wasn't 'cool, there are actually some okay people in the world' - it was 'no way, they are hiding the monsters, we'll keep digging until we find them.'  Yeah, I know, backstory still unfolding.

I had warm fuzzies for the Draco Foundation for a long while (as player, cos i never got to run for them as any character) - then I realised they had to be as ruthless and underhanded as anybody to survive.  Hell, there could be a campaign out there somewhere in which the Azzies are Bright and Shining Heroes. (Any Mexican players on the forum?)

Just look at the differences between two of the Names - Kane and Argent.  Sure, they MIGHT work together - once.  They seem more likely to work at cross-purposes, just going on how they've been written.

Hmm, having trouble putting thoughts into words . . .

[Nomad Zophiel]

No, I get you. Shadowrun catches the 'punk' aspect of cyberpunk in its default assumption that the characters come from an exploited underclass. Its the cold, impersonal, money makes the world go 'round type of world that gave punk music its start. What it doesn't necessarily have, unless the players bring it, is that punk ethos of fighting that system even when you're at the bottom. Sure, most every run hurts some corp but it helps another. The runners themselves have become just another commodity in a commoditized world and by and large they seem to be OK with that.

Don't forget, Evo and Horizon have to play hardball just like the Draco foundation. Big groups of any sort just don't have room to care much about the individual. Individuals are usually too caught up in their day to day survival to look at what they can do to change the big picture. Any system where the cops deliberately leave an entire district as a breeding ground for crime so that they can keep their contract prices high is probably not a good one. Obviously, Shadowrunners can use this to their advantage. When asked if it  seem morallys repugnant, though, they're likely to say the same thing as bankers who made $40 million personally while their banks were being bailed out.

"That's the system. If you have a problem with it don't blame me, change the system."

[FastJack]

@Longshot:

The best way to get the players up on the high horse and act noble? Take money out the equation. Seriously, if you want them to start runs that are trying to change the world, make it so they no longer need to rely on a paycheck (the Leverage route).

[Longshot23]

That may be why I settled on an Occult Investigator as my SR4 character - kind of straddles the line.  Besides, can you imagine Jim Rockford or Magnum PI or even MacGyver with magic? 

The concept that the individual matters less than the group also plays a part.  Funnily enough, the corps play this up more than governments.

I also like a quote from Angel: "We live as though the world was as it should be, to show it what it can be."

I'm kind of surprised that no one leapt to Kane's defence though 

[FastJack]

Kane doesn't need anyone to defend him, his rep says it all.

Honestly, if Argent is Hulk Hogan, Kane's "Rowdy" Roddy Piper.