[Critias]

The Inhumans and Doctor Strange are about as far from street level as you can get.  For Iron Fist and Power Man it really just depends on where you are in their story arc (early on they could be pretty replicable, but much like Daredevil and Batman they get better under later writers, Danny especially), but Black Bolt, Karnak, Doc Strange, etc?  Yikes.  Those guys are about as "street" as Wonder Woman.

[The Cat]

The only problem with anyone going off on the heroic, save the citizen, superhero is that anyone he really cheeses off is quite capable of demolishing him.  That bit about not killing will simply get him killed.  There aren't any real bricks running around in SR, aside from huge anthroform drones, so the damage output of any even slightly organized group will put the would-be hero down.

Not to mention the (relative) ease of following someone around with a watcher spirit and then having that spirit report back to his master so a strike team can take him out, or use a cloud of RFID tags to follow the guy and do the same thing, and anyone who becomes a serious threat to crime (organized or not) is writing their own death warrant.

Not that it can't be done, for a while at least, but the life expectancy of that individual will be really, really short.

I dug around in my disks and found one of the drafts of my original article.  This is pretty much the take I had, except the RFID tags (those were still extremely rare when I wrote it).  In fact, the first "out and out" superhero, he was a psychiatric patient who slipped his leash, was beaten to death by a gang in the barrens shortly after he appeared on the scene.

My take was the "real" superheroes were mostly headcases.  People who had the time and drive (and lack of reason) to dedicate to becoming extremely skilled at their chosen style.  They were dangerous and unstable, but extremely skilled and oft times had the money or training to be extremely effective.

The "sane" people were the "posers."  They were closer to what we really have today.  A smattering of people, some mental illnesses, but mostly people who had flat out enough and where "helping' the police clean up the streets.  They were nowhere near as individually skilled or effective as the "real" thing, but were sane enough to know it and band together in what amounted to poser gangs for mutual assistance and defense and ended up being more effective through strength in numbers.

[The Cat]

I tossed him a PM about it, to make sure he swings by and checks out the thread.

Not much to say at the moment, but here's a link to The Good Fight. Good enough article when I wrote it, I suppose, but looking back I'm not sure if I went far enough.

A number of interesting ideas in there.  I took a different approach, instead incorporating "Superheroes" into the standard game, working to explain their psychology and motivations and modus operandi for doing it in the regular game world.  Mind you, at that time the gamers I was playing with were sparking a lot of good ideas (for instance, using the smartlink system for things other than firing a gun, "mundane" magic items like mana-active bacteria powered cigarette lighters and national/international social societies).

[Crimsondude]

The Inhumans and Doctor Strange are about as far from street level as you can get.  For Iron Fist and Power Man it really just depends on where you are in their story arc (early on they could be pretty replicable, but much like Daredevil and Batman they get better under later writers, Danny especially), but Black Bolt, Karnak, Doc Strange, etc?  Yikes.  Those guys are about as "street" as Wonder Woman.

Hey. Greg Rucka had Wonder Woman running around playing spy for the U.S. government.

Karnak is why I wish Kinesics wasn't gimped by the rules because he's pretty much what you get if Kinesics and Combat Sense stack, especially if you also get Centering (Small Unit Tactics). I had a couple of PCs with that metamagic and they were disgusting.

Aside from Black Bolt, a lot of Inhumans are actually doable in SR as changelings, etc.

Dr. Strange is doable now that he's not Sorceror Supreme. The Strange mini by Mark Waid and Emma Rios is a good example. But he'd be fun for the basis of a high concept magical/metaplanar adventure, too.

The Daredevil-based Shadowland (hehehe) event is a possible influence based on what I've heard since it incorporates pretty much every New York street-level hero.

But to bring this around to high concept, you can take the Punisher and turn him into Frankenstein and have him battle cyber-samurai led by a 100-year old steampunk cyborg as Frank defends an underground community of monsters before taking the battle to the enemy by riding a dragon armed with a gatling gun as he battles zombie Nazis and nearly gets sucked into Limbo through a machine that opens a gateway to basically one of Marvel's hells. FrankenCastle was fucking amazing, and anyone who isn't intrigued by the preceding description, well... I don't think we can be friends.

But I really wasn't talking about superheroes in SR. Though you could make a case that maybe some of the stuff we did was superheroics and didn't even realize it. When one of Critias' adepts and some other PCs fought a bunch of Yak/MCT slavers who had taken a whole Puyallup building hostage, it was just another day of killing Yaks and slavers on Shadowland (when I first created that location, it was used for an FBI agent hunting down and straight up murdering some Yak cybergoons like he was Frank Castle). But that was some straight-up Batman and the Outsiders-type stuff Critias ran. Or maybe Heroes for Hire.

Maybe it just seems like I'm seeing a complaint that doesn't exist anymore (or on this board, anyway). Or I'm so used to having run games with Critias who is super-street level action that I got the idea that people don't think or are afraid (and I'm not saying Critias is either. He's just really good at focusing on the street-level, DIY, low-power stuff when he GMs) of running games that involve high-grade initiates, PCs with power armor, personal drone-jets, and drone ninjas fighting cyberzombies, God-chipped SF commandos, insect spirits, modified SCIRE Constructs, AIs and and toxic spirits. Or battling waves of shedim and a powerful mage who's really good at Divination leading an Awakened army. Or having a decker travel across America restoring a hard drive into a Rating 12 knowsoft. Or maybe time has made me realize some of my games were fucking insane.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Karnak is why I wish Kinesics wasn't gimped by the rules because he's pretty much what you get if Kinesics and Combat Sense stack, especially if you also get Centering (Small Unit Tactics). I had a couple of PCs with that metamagic and they were disgusting.

Yeah, Kinesics is gimped in the new version but Emotitoys aren't. How's that a good thing? The social game is anemic enough as it is.

[Patrick Goodman]

Wait, what? Doc Strange isn't the Sorceror Supreme anymore? Man, have I been out of touch for, like, ever.

Indirectly, Crimsondude, what I'm hearing you say is I didn't go far enough with The Good Fight. Maybe someday in my copious unstructured free time, I'll be able to revisit that and really go to town.

Maybe.

I need to fall back in love with SR again first, though, and at the moment, that's not too high on the list...which is kinda sad.

[Bull]

Patrick:  Yeah, Doc lost his title a couple years ago.  During the World War Hulk storyline, Doc STrange apparently broke a rule and summoned up some big nasty demon to fight a crazed Hulk who'd taken over New York.  This led to him having to find a new Sorcerer Supreme to take over the title, and he went around talking to a bunch of the heavy Magic Hitters in the Marvel U.  Eventually, he found his successor...  Doctor Voodoo.

Bull

[FastJack]

There's reasons I stopped reading comic books. The list starts at Identity Crisis and Marvel Illuminati and keeps growing every year.

[Critias]

There are some diamonds out there...but lots and lots of rough, too.  I can't blame ya.

[Nomad Zophiel]

I quit following "cape" comics. Instead I buy a few series every time a compendium comes out. DMZ (great feral city), Ex Machina, Walking Dead and a couple of others. Every time I try for a regular series I get disappointed.

[Critias]

Scalped has yet to disappoint me, for non-superhero titles, and Walking Dead continues to shock/amaze/terrify/prepare me for the Zombpocalypse.

I feel too much like an abuse victim crawling back into a relationship, with superhero comics.  Every time I start to like something and start to collect, I get hurt.  Then something catches my eye, I go crawling back, and then the relationship turns to crap again just when I start to love.  I still own a couple hundred trade paperbacks -- and that's after selling or giving away a bunch prior to the move -- but I tend to have a big chunk of a title, then it drops off completely when I got pissed about it.  Or, in one instance, when it got canceled (damn them for making Immortal Iron Fist so good, early on, and then just letting it wither and die).

The only superhero title I still buy without at least sampling a friend's copy is Secret Six.  I'm a tremendous Catman fanboy -- I mean, I was Catman at Dragon*Con a few years ago -- and I love what Gail Simone and crew have done with the character since Villains United.  It's the only Marvel/DC gig I'll buy sight unseen. 

I'm timidly trying a relationship with the recent Captain America run again (from Winter Soldier on), ran with it up past Civil War and the Death of Captain America, liked it and kept going while Bucky put on the new outfit, etc, etc...but I let it stall out for all the recent crossover junk again.  I'm just scared I'll get my heart broken again.

[Nomad Zophiel]

I can deal with self contained cape arcs. Seven Soldiers of. . .whatever. . .the one with Zatanna, was good. Or Justice, Kingdom Come, about half the Elseworlds or any Warren Ellis limited series. Marvel's Frontline mini-series to go with each big event is always great. I really like the perspective of the guys on the street in a world of dueling demigods. There was a great Punisher arc in Civil War about a mobster who had it in for capes and wound up becoming one by the time it was over. Most Green Lantern Corps stories are more or less self contained, but don't get me started on the Darkest Night, Brightest Day, rainbow alliance crap. Continuity is cool, after a fashion, when you read month to month and follow the changes. Decade to decade, though, writers come and go. They all try to leave their mark. They all try to retcon things they don't like. It winds up a mess.

I'd just as soon an episodic format where Peter Parker is always a senior in college, he's always just about to ask MJ to marry him etc. Its better than him getting married, then everyone forgetting he was married, then him not really being Peter Parker, then going public and having a techno-suit, then going back underground etc etc. Same thing with Clark Kent. The stories everyone remembers from the big name capes are timeless. They stand up to modernizing, they're about situations real people can relate to. Why trash that?

[Usda Beph]

Sorry guys, I am a hero at heart. We got a Wet job and personnally I can't see a character of mine doing it, much less assisting. I can kill raging hordes of humanoids all day. but taking a job to wack some scientist who may be making something really bad (OK him I can stop!) or creating a cure for cancer that company B doesn't want to hit the market before thiers does. Just ain't MY style.

I want our group to be misfit heroes not just another group of Runners out to make a buck.

[Crimsondude]

@Patrick

Perhaps. I never got a chance to run a solo campaign for a character who can be described as Batman with Superman's powers. In Shadowrun. I think what matters is scalability, and being clever at creating challenges for powerful characters and ideas. That's why I love Grant Morrison. He told one of the best Superman stories ever and still treated him like he was, you know, Superman. I can't recall, but I think Final Crisis was coming out as we were wrapping up There's Nothing Free and I would be lying if I didn't think that hasn't affected my writing. If not then, certainly now.

[hazmat the monstar]

Hehe.

Fun fact.  We were stating up Marvel characters in SR2.  So this isn't really just an SR4 thing.  I think it's just that since SR4 has come out, the nature of internet fandom has changed.

We used to be a group of fans who got together and celebrated the fact that we were all fans.  Sure, there were arguments, but they rarely got all that heated.  At the end of the day, we were all there because we loved the product, and we knew it.

These days?  Internet fandom tends to be mean and spiteful.  The vocal fans are perpetually disgruntled because things aren't done how they think they should be, no one else is allowed to have an opinion that varies from their own, and in general, they just all seem to enjoy being miserable and making others feel that way.

Slight tangent there, I know, but...  The point is, 15 years ago, I wrote up rules for playing Spider-Man.  I created rules for web shooters, someone else had created a custom Gecko Crawl adept power.  And it was a fun time.  Most of the folks on the old RN mailing list said "Hey, cool.  I'd never use taht in my game, but good job."  and that was that. 

Other people created Wolverine (Really easy) and other superheroes.  At one point, someone had rules for Caps Shield, throwing it, catching it, etc.  The really crazy powerful characters tended to get left out, so no Superman or anything, but a lot of the low and mid-level heroes?  They were done at one point or another.  And no one said the game sucked because you could do that.  No one said that we sucked fo thinking that was an interesting excercise in rules and character design. 

Nowadays?  If we started a thread about that, it would be lucky to get 20 posts in before someone starting bitching.  Because apparently anyone having fun in a way that differs from theirs totally ruins the game for them. ;/

Wankers.

Hrmmm...  You know...  Maybe I'll work up a team of Marvel Hero based runners to use as an opposing Shadowrun team for Missions or something. 

Bull

People have become very mean on the internet, based on the fact that they don't have to face the person theyr'e degrading. It's rediculous, and keeps me away from any form of chat generally. This forum is the only one I go on, and there are so many cool people here. I think it's awesome. I'm not very technically savvy, so sometimes I come off stupid, and peopl who are super-chatters attack with a fury. Perhaps It's all their pent up aggression because they can't talk that way in real life. Or maybe they get bullied. Idk. But as far as Bull is saying, RPGs are supposed to be FUN. Why can't you do whatever the hell you want in a game? I personally don't go beyond what I can reason. But how different is a tallented runner than Batman?