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High Concept and Shadowrun

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Crimsondude

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« on: <10-30-10/1450:35> »
This is based on a discussion that arose in discussing Spy Games.

On another forum, someone said that SR has turned into the Marvel Universe. I laughed because I've said the exact same thing since Arsenal came out, and especially after Runner's Companion. You can literally play Marvel superhumans in SR now because of power creep or whatever you want to call the fact that there are now rules to make nearly anything possible. Not that it wasn't before. I saw rules legal robot ninjas in 3e (I GMed them, in fact) and other crazy things. But now the floodgates are open.

Anyway, the suggestion is that this is a Very Bad Thing.

Fuck. That. Shit.

This game could give good old King Jack Kirby himself a run for his money any day when it comes to high concept ideas. So let's not pretend James Bond is beyond the pale. This is a game where an AI took over a cubic kilometer pyramid in downtown Seattle for 16 months to experiment to death on 90,000 of the 100,000 inhabitants in order to draw its creator out from hiding so it could download itself into 1,000 peoples' brains and then reupload itself to be a free-floating Matrix-dwelling AI during the IPO for one of the biggest corps in history until its "birth mother" fought it to the death as a Norse apocalypse cult teamed with a sociopathic computer-brain hacker blew up the Matrix and set off a nuclear weapon above the server farm as part of a plot to bring about Ragnarok/recreate the Matrix in her image.

That's canon. And that's one of the most hardcore adventures/campaigns and storylines I think has ever been published for SR (Well, RA:S, Brainscan and the Deus stuff in System Failure. As a whole that book is hit and miss, but it does not lack for vision). It's one part of a vast tapestry of ideas that are ultimately up to the players to actually set the tone according to their own whims.

I ran a year-plus long campaign that went even further down the rabbit hole. It took that insanity and jacked it up to 12. It begins with three runners paid an insane amount of money to successfully kidnap Nadja Daviar at the beginning of the campaign during a massive firefight at Sea-Tac. And then are ordered  by Lugh Surehand, who was being hunted by his own men, to team up with a guy who is nearly an archvillain to rescue/kidnap someone from inside the SCIRE while a fragment of Deus and Tadashi Marushige tried to retake the building as part of a plan to take some measure of permanent political power over Seattle as a new haven for the Banded that ends with two ghosts and an ex-Mafia adept hitman performing a multi-combo kill of Marushige as a multi-thousand karma PC extracts a general from the SCIRE command center with a Delta team and a mage/drone battle occurs on the rooftop. And yet to this day almost everyone tells me it was a deep and compelling look at the closure of, well, Shadowland, and a satisfying closure to a lot of long-running character stories.

When those three runners acted in unison to destroy Marushige's magical protection (one PC), throw him through a wall (another), and then shoot him in the face (third) it would have looked like something out of The Expendables (actually, Statham performs the move the adept used to throw Tadashi through the wall during the fight in the tunnels) and yet it was dramatic and tense because two of those PCs have been looking to kill him for literally years IRL.

It's all to your taste. So why not toss a bone to the people who want to have some wacky hijinks every now and then? But there is nothing that precludes a dark and gritty story, even if you're using fairies and free spirits, AI, or robots.


I hope SR is like the Marvel U. Some of the most mature stories aren't the tortured, talky nonsense of Bendis, et al. It's Tobin and Parker writing the all-ages Marvel Adventures books where the Avengers became MODOKs and played baseball vs. Galactus, and tell stories without the lazy and overwrought tropes available to "adult" books. Oh, no. Purple Man isn't a mass-murdering rapist in Dr. Doom and the Masters of Evil. Still one of the best Doom stories written in decades. Stories and games don't suck because of ideas or characters. Ideas and characters are neutral. It's how they're used. And that's what I hope people understand.

If we do our job right, any type of story is possible. Any genre. Any theme. And to be fair to the last 20 years of authors of SR, who've I've given no end of shit to when I was young and stupid, they made a relatively sane game with batshit crazy elements. But now there are rules for some of the wackier stuff. And that's awesome. Because to paraphrase Predator: If there are rules for it, it can die.

Remember, Rule Zero for every group should be: Have Fun. Shadowrun is Awesome Town, population: You.

Besides, it's just a game. If you don't like it, ignore it or change it. No one's putting a gun to your head and making you use technomancer critter swarms and kitteh protosapients (I just don't like using contemporary names for stuff).

Bull

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« Reply #1 on: <10-30-10/2123:32> »
Hehe.

Fun fact.  We were stating up Marvel characters in SR2.  So this isn't really just an SR4 thing.  I think it's just that since SR4 has come out, the nature of internet fandom has changed.

We used to be a group of fans who got together and celebrated the fact that we were all fans.  Sure, there were arguments, but they rarely got all that heated.  At the end of the day, we were all there because we loved the product, and we knew it.

These days?  Internet fandom tends to be mean and spiteful.  The vocal fans are perpetually disgruntled because things aren't done how they think they should be, no one else is allowed to have an opinion that varies from their own, and in general, they just all seem to enjoy being miserable and making others feel that way.

Slight tangent there, I know, but...  The point is, 15 years ago, I wrote up rules for playing Spider-Man.  I created rules for web shooters, someone else had created a custom Gecko Crawl adept power.  And it was a fun time.  Most of the folks on the old RN mailing list said "Hey, cool.  I'd never use taht in my game, but good job."  and that was that. 

Other people created Wolverine (Really easy) and other superheroes.  At one point, someone had rules for Caps Shield, throwing it, catching it, etc.  The really crazy powerful characters tended to get left out, so no Superman or anything, but a lot of the low and mid-level heroes?  They were done at one point or another.  And no one said the game sucked because you could do that.  No one said that we sucked fo thinking that was an interesting excercise in rules and character design. 

Nowadays?  If we started a thread about that, it would be lucky to get 20 posts in before someone starting bitching.  Because apparently anyone having fun in a way that differs from theirs totally ruins the game for them. ;/

Wankers.

Hrmmm...  You know...  Maybe I'll work up a team of Marvel Hero based runners to use as an opposing Shadowrun team for Missions or something.  :)

Bull

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« Reply #2 on: <10-30-10/2212:31> »
SR by its very nature IS high concept. When you can have a group of cyborg killing machines hanging out with wileders of archane art and those who can manipulate the flow of data with their mind; the fact that one can emulate "robot ninjas" is the least of their worries. I like SR for this very reason; I got a bit tired of playing sword and wand in or hardcore Sci-fi and nothing in-between. Yeah, SR is can be a lot to wrap their brain around, but that's part of the fun.
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voydangel

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« Reply #3 on: <10-31-10/0129:44> »
...
Hrmmm...  You know...  Maybe I'll work up a team of Marvel Hero based runners to use as an opposing Shadowrun team for Missions or something.  :)
Bull

You totally should. My friends and I still make movie and comic characters for fun / character building exercise. It's especially fun when you can figure out 2 or 3 completely different ways to make the same movie/comic character.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #4 on: <10-31-10/1715:27> »
These days?  Internet fandom tends to be mean and spiteful.  The vocal fans are perpetually disgruntled because things aren't done how they think they should be, no one else is allowed to have an opinion that varies from their own, and in general, they just all seem to enjoy being miserable and making others feel that way.
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The Cat

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« Reply #5 on: <10-31-10/1939:04> »
Back in SR3 I wrote a smallish (unpublished) article on Superheroes in the Shadowrun universe.  The piece was still in the early stages of writing (I think it was in the second draft) when the e-zine it was for folded up and I never did a real final draft.

My basic take was that there ARE superheroes in the Shadowrun universe.  They're rare and they are for the most part mentally ill or people pushed beyond the point of a "reasonable" response into the unreasonable.  They believe themselves to be real-life comic book heros.  The original concept was based on the actual "real life" superheroes running around right now then adding in the ability to actually become super human.

While I never incorporated the article into my games formally, I have had two groups of runners run into someone claiming to be a superhero.

Critias

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« Reply #6 on: <10-31-10/1942:47> »
Patrick Goodman wrote something somewhat similar, once.  If he stumbles across this thread he may post a link or something.

The Cat

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« Reply #7 on: <10-31-10/1949:31> »
Patrick Goodman wrote something somewhat similar, once.  If he stumbles across this thread he may post a link or something.

I rather hope he does.  Since mine was never finished a lot of the ideas where "useably half formed" and I've never really gone back to finish it off.  Seeing other's takes on the idea is interesting enough from that standpoint alone.

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #8 on: <10-31-10/2000:44> »

My basic take was that there ARE superheroes in the Shadowrun universe.  They're rare and they are for the most part mentally ill or people pushed beyond the point of a "reasonable" response into the unreasonable. 


Well, it makes sense. If you're SINless, in a SINless neighborhood where the corp cops don't patrol and you've got augmented abilities and a motivation to fight crime, its almost logical. Take the Signature Negative Quality so the Yakuza (or whoever) know who's hunting them. Put on a mask, which is pretty much standard shadow gear already. Even a single starting character can hold his own against your average street gangers if he plays his cards right. Voila, starting masked vigilante of the Batman/Shadow persuasion. Taking it that far is as sane and reasonable as any armed neighborhood protection group.

Add in a Code of Conduct about protecting the weak and not killing, no matter how much they deserve it, and you've got a comic book hero. It actually makes more sense in the world of SR than it does in a modern setting.

Critias

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« Reply #9 on: <10-31-10/2155:27> »
I tossed him a PM about it, to make sure he swings by and checks out the thread.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #10 on: <11-01-10/0459:05> »
The only problem with anyone going off on the heroic, save the citizen, superhero is that anyone he really cheeses off is quite capable of demolishing him.  That bit about not killing will simply get him killed.  There aren't any real bricks running around in SR, aside from huge anthroform drones, so the damage output of any even slightly organized group will put the would-be hero down.

Not to mention the (relative) ease of following someone around with a watcher spirit and then having that spirit report back to his master so a strike team can take him out, or use a cloud of RFID tags to follow the guy and do the same thing, and anyone who becomes a serious threat to crime (organized or not) is writing their own death warrant.

Not that it can't be done, for a while at least, but the life expectancy of that individual will be really, really short.
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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #11 on: <11-01-10/0603:32> »
Well, that kind of presupposes that you're going after people with that level of skill. I'm thinking more of your superhero who's just starting out. Chasing street thugs, maybe taking on a small band of Halloweenies as a big climactic battle. Think of guys like the Punisher and Daredevil or a much earlier Batman. They're outmatched by their opponents so they have to use stealth, planning and brains to even the odds. Kind of like Shadowrunners that way. Now sure, as the character progresses and starts pissing off the Yak and/or megacorps he's going to have to develop some clever techniques fast, or find some other like-minded "heroes" (read: Shadowrunners) to work with. Once he starts operating at that level, its going to take more than what the thugs have in their pockets to pay the bills, so he might start taking jobs on the side under another mask. The refusal to kill aside, I imagine that a lot of Runners get their start this way, trying to make a difference for people who matter to them that society won't help out.

But the life, it gets under your skin. There's the thrills, the (relatively) high living, the edge. Next thing you know, you're pulling down jobs to get the next cool piece of cyberware. Can't fight crime on Thursday, that's Inferno night. Might be some work to be had there. Maybe help out the Yakuza just this one time. The money's too good to turn down. Should I go to my sister's wedding or take this really lucrative run on Evo?

Which, honestly, is the stuff good drama is made of.

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #12 on: <11-01-10/0913:50> »
I tossed him a PM about it, to make sure he swings by and checks out the thread.
Not much to say at the moment, but here's a link to The Good Fight. Good enough article when I wrote it, I suppose, but looking back I'm not sure if I went far enough.
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Angelone

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« Reply #13 on: <11-01-10/1237:27> »
Bull, you totally should. I made Deadpool and Cable I have them floating around somewhere. I might throw them up here one day to see what people think.

I seem to remember a fat Japanese guy who ran around as a superhero in Shadowrun. Who at one point gets in over his head and needs help. Was that in any book or did I just see that on the web?
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Usda Beph

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« Reply #14 on: <11-01-10/1252:19> »
Some sample Heroes for street level ShadowRunning That cross my mind

Luke Cage & Ironfist
Inhumans (Blackbolt, Medusa, Karnak, Gorgon et al)
Ghost Rider
Nova
Doc Strange (not quite street level but doable)


Ok off the top those are my ideas.
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