[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Now to be fair I don't like Grimoir at all, FA is a much better magic book. If you read my posts subject I have said no shortage terrible about Grimoir but this isn't BESM or some other brand new easy to break system. SR is on 5th edition, there are holes in 5th, but nothing you can drive a truck like that through.

Dude, when I started reading SR5 core, it took me 30 minutes to find the possibility to use 3 characters with Leadership-Rally to create endless turns. That's not a truck, it's a whole flock of Australian Road Trains. The gate is wide open, it's a no-brainer.

You might wanna spend more than 30 minutes looking at the Leadership rules, then.  You can't have characters A B and C using leadership on each other.  If A uses Rally on B and C, B can't use Rally on A or C.  A is the recognized leader.  C can't use Rally on A or B, because A is the recognized leader.

[AJCarrington]

But tbh, can we focus on the Noble Sacrifice and Channeling topic? We are still nowhere near a clarification, while everyone tells me, that shadowrun has great rules that cant be abused. Can you make that poitn by clarifying channeling and noble sacrifice? Thanks.

Note that the people on this forum are fans/players of the game. Periodically, we get a couple of freelancers popping in, but for the most part there is little direct CGL input. The best we can do is provide our opinions...which may or may not answer your question(s).

[adzling]

i think EVERYONE knows the rules are hot mess Notion.

You're not "proving" anything that everyone doesn't already know.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Someone tell me how to interact with people in this forum please.

Notion, do me a favor.  Everytime someone says 'up to the GM' or anything like that, translate it to:

"I agree that the rule is unclear as written and two different people might read it differently and without any sort of 'official guidance on the matter, the arbitration must fall upon the presiding GM, hopefully."

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

If this is supposed to an answer to the discussion between me and adzling, feel free to elaborate how it is related to the topic...

You said:

I do not want to force any "official" ruling, I just want people to acknowledge, that my problem is not myself being unable to read RAI, but is an intrinsical Ambiguity in the rules.

I don't think anyone has ever said you're wrong about there being ambiguity in the rules (please accept my preemptive mea culpa if in fact someone did without my having seen/remembered it).  In fact numerous people, including myself, have consistently agreed with you on that statement.  In fact adzling went so far as to say:

i think EVERYONE knows the rules are hot mess Notion.

You're not "proving" anything that everyone doesn't already know.

Now being honest with you, it does sound like despite what you said you do want more than empathy and you do want an official ruling on Noble Sacrifice.  If that's correct, you're hardly going about it the best way.  You've been told in effect that one will come if and when it comes, and in the meantime just roll with the GM on it.  And not just by myself, I'll point out. Whether you accept that advice or not accept that advice, it's unreasonable to expect the Powers That Be to change their entire paradigm on issuing errata just because you've demanded it.

If you feel so strongly on any given particular rules issue that the Powers That Be should hurry up on errata/clarifying, then my advice is completely unofficial and coming from a fellow plebeian: you should engage in a more emotionless, more logical argument explaining how and why the issue demands immediate attention.  Certainly stop with the name-calling. You need to convince people to reprioritize what they're already doing.  They won't do it based on complaints.

... because I can not see, where the "Strong-GM"-debate is in any way related to what we were talking about.

As far as I can tell, you don't see it because you've been arguing from an implicit premise that "Shadowrun shouldn't have to rely on a GM to clarify a rule's application".  Honestly until you drop that presumption, you're really never going to be satisfied with Shadowrun.

[Michael Chandra]

I feel I should remind people that technically this topic is for asking for official statements, so any lengty unofficial debate between players that isn't a straight-up rule/source/reference-quoting might be best to handle in a separate topic in a polite manner.

[Michael Chandra]

While some questions might be answered in this thread, it's mainly for the collection of questions, so please bear with us if folks aren't able to answer right away.

[Michael Chandra]

Could someone involved in the Channeling discussion perhaps make a topic for it, if deemed necessary to continue the conversation? I've got too big a self-protection list to be able to summarise it properly.

[AJCarrington]

I can do, but if I do, Stainless Steel Troll Rat is going to troll it until it gets locked, so that wont help y'know?

No, I don’t know. I do know that resorting to name calling is a great way to get one closed though. I suggest you open a separate thread if you’d like to pursue the conversation further.

SR Mod

[Marcus]

Could someone involved in the Channeling discussion perhaps make a topic for it, if deemed necessary to continue the conversation? I've got too big a self-protection list to be able to summarise it properly.

It doesn't work and for many reasons, the two most obvious ones being no one lives through summoning a force 40 spirit, and two you don't get to use the drain stats of a channeled spirit, unless those drain stats are worse then yours. Threading it will simply going to result in some moron trying to do this at a con, and with my luck it'll be at my table. So given the current situation unless you feel strongly about it Michael, I'd rather just leave sleeping dogs lie.

[Michael Chandra]

Could someone involved in the Channeling discussion perhaps make a topic for it, if deemed necessary to continue the conversation? I've got too big a self-protection list to be able to summarise it properly.

It doesn't work and for many reasons, the two most obvious ones being no one lives through summoning a force 40 spirit, and two you don't get to use the drain stats of a channeled spirit, unless those drain stats are worse then yours. Threading it will simply going to result in some moron trying to do this at a con, and with my luck it'll be at my table. So given the current situation unless you feel strongly about it Michael, I'd rather just leave sleeping dogs lie.

Ah, makes sense, then a detailed debate doesn't seem useful, since the math is against the situation. I know that in my campaign my brother bribed a Force 20 with 1 dram of Orichalcum (refined from second stage to fourth=orichalcum himself) to please not edge-resist against the summoning, then spent 2 Edge on the Summon and Drain rolls to survive the summon attempt. That was a nice campaign final, with drone armies, big booms, F20 Energy Aura and worse. =)

Uhm... Let's see, I DID have a player who had like 30 Drain Resist dice, let's just derail 1 bit more and run the math on unedged Spirit vs Rerolled Drain... (I am a nerd...) F30 has 14.64% chance to k.o. with 10 Physical drain. Now if it's an edging spirit... Let's simulate edged dice with max 3 explosions, which averages to 0.399691 vs the real 0.4... Vs F30 spirit Pushing Limit, 30 rerolled drain dice have 13.27% chance to not take 10P or more drain... And there's 69.68% chance to die outright at 4 Body.

Code: [Select]

AnyDice:
S: {0:2, 2:1}
R: {0:4, 1:5}
E: {0:432, 2:180, 4:30, 6:5, 8:1}

output [highest of 0 and 45dE - 30dR]

[RickDeckard]

Was there a rules FAQ document published based on this thread?

[PiXeL01]

No, but many of the questions have been talked about by the Errata Team.

[Shredni]

Hi All.
Just looking for a consensus of opinion on a couple of topics that I have recently experienced. Please feel free to share your thoughts.
1) Adepts are too overpowered.
2) Adepts can effectively get two power points per initiation grade, one for raising their magic and one from picking 'power point' as their initiation benefit.
3) Adepts must turn all powers on or off. If they are on and they go through a mana barrier their powers are switched off and they may permanently loose them.
4) If an Adept has powers on, an astal mage can attack them with spells, by 'grounding' them through the adept abilities.
5) If an Adept has astral sight they still cannot affect astral space or anything in it.

Comments please...

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Hi All.
Just looking for a consensus of opinion on a couple of topics that I have recently experienced. Please feel free to share your thoughts.
1) Adepts are too overpowered.

Powerful, sure.  OP? I wouldn't say so.  Unless we're looking at Mystic Adepts... in which case yes.  Adept Powers + Spells + Spirits = Stupid.

2) Adepts can effectively get two power points per initiation grade, one for raising their magic and one from picking 'power point' as their initiation benefit.

False.  Increasing your magic does not grant more adept powers.  Adept powers must be purchased with power points.

3) Adepts must turn all powers on or off. If they are on and they go through a mana barrier their powers are switched off and they may permanently loose them.

False on both counts (can turn all or some off; there's no risk of permanent loss unless essence or magic loss occurs)

4) If an Adept has powers on, an astal mage can attack them with spells, by 'grounding' them through the adept abilities.

False.  The one exception is Astral Perception, which does establish a link for the adept to astral space when in use.

5) If an Adept has astral sight they still cannot affect astral space or anything in it.

False.  Killing hands and Weapon Foci both work on purely astral forms, so long as you have Astral Perception active.