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Shadowrun 5 Errata

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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #525 on: (17:27:38/07-29-18) »
Hm, is this really still disputed?

Going through the book we have gunnery rules mentioned at:

GUNNERY (AGILITY)
Gunnery is used when firing any vehicle-mounted weapon, regardless of how or where the weapon is mounted. This skill extends to manual and sensor-enhanced gunnery.
p.146 core

GUNNERY
The rules and modifiers for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons. Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Weapon Skill + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems.
p.183

PASSIVE TARGETING
In passive targeting, the vehicle’s Sensor attribute substitutes for the Accuracy of the weapon as the advanced targeting system makes up for any flaws in the weapon design. The attacker rolls Gunnery + Logic [Sensor]. The target’s Signature modifiers are also applied as a dice pool modifier.
p.184

CONTROL DEVICE
(VARIABLE ACTION)
Marks Required: varies
Test: (as action) [Data Processing (or special)] v. (as action) or Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall
You perform an action through a device you control (or at least control sufficiently), using your commlink or deck like a remote control or video-game controller. The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally. For example, firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test, and using a remote underwater welder calls for a Nautical Mechanic + Logic test.
p.238

VR AND RIGGING
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or other device, you’re in Virtual Reality mode. The control rig allows you to treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in; this includes Vehicle Control Tests, Gunnery Tests, and Sensor Tests.
p.266


If you read it one after the other it becomes pretty clear: The base assumption is that you are handling a mounted weapon with your own hands and eyes - and use agility (p.146)
If you are not with your hands on the weapon you are controlling it remotely, therefore you use Logic instead of Agility (p.183)
Also, if you are using sensors to target, you use Logic (p.184)
The Control Device text is the one causing the confusion. If you look at the bolded text you see, that you still can use the rules for remote operations and sensor targeting - because if you are in VR, your normal operation will be using sensors to target your gun and move the turret remotely instead of manually.
p.266 only clarifies that VR will give you boni to your gunnery tests
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Lewis Greywolf

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« Reply #526 on: (17:50:55/07-29-18) »
I´m leaning heavily towards the Mental Attributes + Reaction, but the most important thing is that we get a clear solution here.
Even "Agility for Shooting always and everywhere" would be better than "LOL whatever  ::)"

A solution like this:

  • Agility for manual targetting (including remote control)
  • Logic for Sensor targetting (active and passive)

would be fitting as well, however in this case it´s even more  important to give the Signature Table an Overhaul and get Sensor Targetting out of the "too shitty to ever use"-corner. All possible targets except large vehicles*. have a negative modifiers right now, including metahumans at a whooping -3. A -3 modifier already means that a basic patrol Drone loadout (Pilot 3, Clearsight 3) is pretty much unable to do its job right now. Not to mention active targetting, which is almost guaranteed to result in a wasted action. Shouldn´t Metahumans and Critters be pretty easy to detect? Think about body heat, breathing, heartbeat... (It´s also weird that there are 3 seperate lines with the same -3 Modificator. Could it be that this table isn´t actually RAI, but an overlooked editing hickup?  ???)

Anyways, more reasonable would be something like this:
+3  Oversized Vehicles and Critters (i.e. Dragons), Fire Spirits (makes sense, right?)
+1  Large Metahumans (i.e. Trolls), Critters and Drones, Cars
+0  Medium-Sized Metahumans (i.e. Elves, Orks Humans), Critters and Drones, Motorcycles, Other Spirits
-1   Small Metahumans (i.e. Dwarfs), Critters and Drones
-3   Minidrones, Very Small Critters
-6   Microdrones
And also a +1 Modificator for Targets with spotted wireless Equipment/Presence.

*And Spirits, which are missing from the table whatever reason. Probably means that there is no modifier, but with the way spirits are "balanced" right now, I wouldn´t be surprised if we get an Errata that explicitly states that Spirits can´t be targetted by sensors at all  ::)

I'm going to agree with ALL of this, I want to see something simple and consistent. So that you can make a character and go to a Missions game and know what to expect. Something that you could actually explain to a new player that wants to use a Rigger without adding a bunch of If / Then special conditions before they can go shoot at things.

Marcus

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« Reply #527 on: (18:05:42/07-29-18) »
Eh. Stilling going in the sense the board has collectively talked at one another on this issue for like 3 or 4 whole threads on this topic. Nothing comes, and as far i can see nothing is going to come of it. We can't have attribute only tests, they have no limit. While I think most of us recognize that Rigger has issues, but the will to do something about is just not there. It's not a broken TM we comfort ourselves. But at the same time is has no resemblance to the class we had 3rd. The 4th group are too busy whining about destruction of the drone decker thing briefly popularized in 4th, and 5th is stuck the odd man out.
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HP15BS

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« Reply #528 on: (19:02:01/07-29-18) »
Hm, is this really still disputed?

Going through the book we have gunnery rules mentioned at:
...
If you read it one after the other it becomes pretty clear: The base assumption is that you are handling a mounted weapon with your own hands and eyes - and use agility (p.146)
If you are not with your hands on the weapon you are controlling it remotely, therefore you use Logic instead of Agility (p.183)
Also, if you are using sensors to target, you use Logic (p.184)
The Control Device text is the one causing the confusion. If you look at the bolded text you see, that you still can use the rules for remote operations and sensor targeting - because if you are in VR, your normal operation will be using sensors to target your gun and move the turret remotely instead of manually.
p.266 only clarifies that VR will give you boni to your gunnery tests

Thank you for laying it all out so plainly.

I would only amend the "If you are not with your hand on the weapon" part to read "If you are not using your hands to control the weapon."

Then there's no contradiction for AR.
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Xenon

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« Reply #529 on: (16:08:52/07-30-18) »
Hm, is this really still disputed?
Your assumption that vehicle-mounted weapons also include drone-mounted weapons is not valid because it is in direct conflict with the example on p. 238


Please compare the rule on p. 183 with the example on p. 238:

SR5 p. 183 Gunnery
Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems.

SR5 p. 238 Control Device
firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test


The base assumption is that you are handling a mounted weapon with your own hands and eyes - and use agility (p.146)
No, the base assumption is that you use the same skill, attribute and limit no matter if you are using manual operation, remote operation via AR, remote operation via VR or jumped in.

SR5 p. 238 Control Device
The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally

Which mean you [always] use Gunnery + Agility (unless otherwise noted).

The "Gunnery" chapter (on p. 183) does mention an exception which change the attribute from Agility to Logic for vehicle-mounted weapons (but not drone-mounted weapons);
- Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems.

The "Drone Gunnery" chapter (later on p. 183) does not mention any exception which mean drone-mounted weapons use the attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally (ie Agility). This is further confirmed by the example on p. 238;
- firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test

Xenon

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« Reply #530 on: (16:27:53/07-30-18) »
Piloting use Reaction unless otherwise noted

Vehicle-Piloting
Manual: Reaction
Remote AR: Reaction
Remote VR: Reaction
Remote Rig: Reaction

Drone-Piloting
Manual: Reaction
Remote AR: Reaction
Remote VR: Reaction
Remote Rig: Reaction


Gunnery use Agility unless otherwise noted

Vehicle-Gunnery
Manual: Agility
Sensor: Logic (due to exception on p. 184)
Remote AR: Logic (due to exception on p. 183)
Remote VR: Logic (due to exception on p. 183)
Remote Rig: Logic (due to exception on p. 183)

Drone-Gunnery
Manual: Agility
Sensor: Logic (due to exception on p. 184)
Remote AR: Agility
Remote VR: Agility
Remote Rig: Agility


Perception use Intuition unless otherwise noted

Vehicle-Perception
Normal: Intuition
Sensor: Intuition
Remote AR: Intuition
Remote VR: Intuition
Remote Rig: Intuition

Drone-Perception
Normal: Intuition
Sensor: Intuition
Remote AR: Intuition
Remote VR: Intuition
Remote Rig: Intuition

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #531 on: (16:33:12/07-30-18) »
So, your argument is that if you remote control a Lynx you have to use Agility, but if you remote control a dodge scooter with a weapon mount you can use Logic, because one is a drone and the other a vehicle?  ::)

The control device example is one of the many SR5 example texts that are just badly edited. The text isn't specifically a rule for using gunnery in VR but rather a general rule on how to use control device. And it clearly speaks about the AR case where you use your commlink like a gamepad - i.e. as a manual control.

VR does not allow you to use a gamepad: "Your body relaxes and your meat senses are blocked, as though your body were asleep." p.229
Which means you can only aim by using sensors and control the weapon remotely.
Manual operation is not an option and therefore neither is Agility.

Your whole argument is based on a rules text that isn't even about that specific topic and also leaves a whole lot of room for interpretation.
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Marcus

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« Reply #532 on: (17:45:25/07-30-18) »
Gunnery
The rules and modifiers for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted
weapons. Vehicle-mounted weapons are
fired using Weapon Skill + Agility [Accuracy] for manual
operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic
[Accuracy] for remote operated systems. A Complex
Action is required for shooting weapons mounted on a
vehicle in any firing mode. Characters shooting handheld
weapons follow the normal rules for ranged combat and
suffer a –2 dice penalty for firing from a moving vehicle.
Stationary vehicles do not confer any of these effects,
though they may inflict the Firing from Cover modifier.
Drone Gunnery
Drones attack using their Pilot + [Weapon] Targeting
autosoft rating (p. 269), limited by Accuracy. Drones
must have an autosoft appropriate to the weapon they
are wielding in order to attack. They cannot fire a weapon
untrained.
Core 183

So that's the text for how gunnery is intended to work.

Active: Sir Rigs-a-Lot is “jumped in” and controlling his
rotodrone directly. He’s having some trouble hitting a couple
of pesky microskimmers that are bee-lining for his team and
loaded with the drone equivalent of suicide vests, so he decides
to get a lock on them before wasting any more ammo.
Sir Rigs-a-Lot makes a Sensor Test by rolling Perception
+ Intuition [Sensor] against the microskimmer’s Pilot +
Evasion [Handling] and scores 3 net hits. That means that
when defending against Sir Rigs-a-Lot’s attack, the targeted
drone loses 3 dice from its Defense test. If Sir Rigs-a-Lot
targets the other drone, he gets no bonus and the targeted
drone may try to break sensor contact by making a Sensor
Defense test. If the target is successful, Sir Rigs-a-Lot has
to spend another action locking on again.
The example from 184

The lock on thing I assume what you are referring to? Isn't it just simpler to assume the example is wrong?

I think the whole thing needs a reset, split the skill run one off reaction and one off logic.
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PingGuy

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« Reply #533 on: (11:46:28/08-09-18) »
I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but I saw a minor issue last night.  The skill table around page 92 has the skill group name for the Resonance skills listed as something else (I forget what).  They are listed as Resonance skills in the section that details skills (pages in the 130's or so), and also on the Priority Table's column for magic, so that skill table seems to be the only place that doesn't match.

Also, in the Character Advancement section (starts somewhere around page 108), the table for Skill Group Improvement Costs doesn't match the formula from the text.  The formula is listed as New Rating * 5, but the table shows numbers that are higher than that.  I want to say it was New Rating * 10 but I can't remember.

I'll try to check these later and update the post if the info is wrong.  But I didn't want to forget about them.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #534 on: (12:01:27/08-09-18) »
I'm not commenting on the validity of any claims (yet), just adding in the missing detail before making any comments.

The skill table around page 92 has the skill group name for the Resonance skills listed as something else (I forget what).

I believe you are referring to the Skill Groups and Individual Skills table on page 90 of the 2nd printing Core book.  It lists them as the Tasking Skill Group.
On page 143, it lists those skills under the heading of Resonance Skills, and each one is listed as being part of the Tasking Skill Group.

Also, in the Character Advancement section (starts somewhere around page 108), the table for Skill Group Improvement Costs doesn't match the formula from the text.

Karma Advancement for Skills table, page 107.


With that out of the way, on to my commentary.

The Resonance skills grouping suffers from two ways to group it.  By the linked Attribute, and the Skill group.  Kind of like the skills in Firearms are also Agility skills.
A clean up would be nice.

On the other hand, the Skill advancement table is a proud nail to me.  It is meant to be read as the Karma cost to raise said skill / group / whatever from 0 to the rating you reference.  If you want to go from 4 to 5, for example, you have to take the cost from 5 and subtract the cost from 4 to get the value to raise the skill / group one point.
It is very unintuitive, to say the least.

PingGuy

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« Reply #535 on: (13:27:06/08-10-18) »
That makes sense, thanks for the clarifications.

Xenon

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« Reply #536 on: (19:44:08/08-21-18) »
So, your argument is that if you remote control a Lynx you have to use Agility, but if you remote control a dodge scooter with a weapon mount you can use Logic, because one is a drone and the other a vehicle?
You use Reaction for controlling both the vehicle and the drone...

...and to fire mounted weapons you use Agility (as Agility is the linked attribute for Gunnery).
Exception 1: Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Logic for remote operated systems.
Exception 2: In passive targeting the attacker rolls Gunnery + Logic [Sensor].


The control device example is one of the many SR5 example texts that are just badly edited.
This might or might not be true.

It is clear that vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Logic for remote operated systems. If the control device example had said Gunnery + Logic then it would be clear that drones use Logic as well, but it doesn't.


Either the example is wrong and there is no difference between vehicle-mounted gunnery and drone-mounted gunnery (= both always use Logic)

Or the example is correct and there is a difference between vehicle-mounted gunnery and drone-mounted gunnery (= drones use Agility except for sensor targeting)


And it clearly speaks about the AR case where you ...
Unless otherwise specified you would use the same skill, attribute and limit for manual, AR, cold- or hot-sim VR or VR while jumped in.


Which means you can only aim by using sensors ...
Not sure I fully understand the reasoning why you must use sensor targeting from cold- or hot-sim VR and while jumped in. Did you find any examples or rules to support this?

Isn't Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] (from p. 183) a valid option while in VR?

(Not saying you are wrong, I am genuinely curious)



Your whole argument is based on a rules text that isn't even about that specific topic and also leaves a whole lot of room for interpretation.
My whole argument is that this is the only reading where none of the existing examples and rules conflict. I am the first to admit that if one or more of the examples or rules are changed then my whole argument will fall.


The lock on thing I assume what you are referring to?
I was thinking about the rules text;

SR5 p. 184 Passive Targeting
In passive targeting, the vehicle’s Sensor attribute substitutes for the Accuracy of the weapon as the advanced targeting system makes up for any flaws in the weapon design. The attacker rolls Gunnery + Logic [Sensor]. The target’s Signature modifiers are also applied as a dice pool modifier.


Isn't it just simpler to assume the example is wrong?
It sure is, but since we asked for errata, clarification or SRM ruling without any response for the last 5 years or so I will go ahead and assume that rules and examples are indeed correct and that we are just reading it wrong.

So far I only found one reading where rules and examples doesn't conflict (which I described in my posts above). Most other readings assume that the control device example is not correct...

HiddenBoss

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« Reply #537 on: (05:07:11/09-08-18) »
RCCs and Decks have the same concealability of -2, page 420 core.

page 215 put decks at "deck: A tablet-sized computer used to hack the Matrix; it is
restricted or illegal in most of the civilized world"
page 266 puts RCC at "It’s about the size of a briefcase."

I don't think the RCC concealability is right some how.

HP15BS

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« Reply #538 on: (13:27:27/09-12-18) »
These incredibly literal readings drive me up a wall. (hint: not literally)

What logical reason is there - could there be - to distinguish remote-operated vehicles from remote-operated drones here? They're literally exactly the same except for size, and thus the option for manual piloting.
(And I'll prove it with RAW here in a sec.)

Either the example is wrong and there is no difference between vehicle-mounted gunnery and drone-mounted gunnery (= both always use Logic)
Or -
Or the example is right, and is illustrating how to use Control Device to do things the way you normally would.

SR5 p. 238 Control Device
The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally
- And what is the "normal " way to perform gunnery?   Manually.

Which mean you [always] use Gunnery + Agility (unless otherwise noted).
- What is the exception that's noted?    Remotely operated vehicles.

- - And what's an example of a remotely operated vehicle? 
Quote from: Core "Matrix Jargon"
drone: An unmanned vehicle that can be controlled via direct wireless link or through the Matrix.
- Core 215
A drone is an unmanned Vehicle.

So there's no conflict whatsoever.
« Last Edit: (14:41:23/09-12-18) by HP15BS »
To Deckers the Foundation really is a crazy place from Alice in Wonderland. How does that stuff just happen? How do they work when everything about them defies logic?
Then a Techno comes, high 5's Caterpillar, takes a swig of Mad Hatter's tea, & wanders away chatting up White Rabbit.
- Marcus Gideon

Marcus

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« Reply #539 on: (22:48:45/09-12-18) »
Does anyone feel like we have gotten anywhere with this?
I'm still holding out hope that some sort of useful conclusion can be reached, whatever they are.
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