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Shadowrun 5 Errata

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PiXeL01

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« Reply #510 on: <07-28-18/2106:17> »
I’m in complete agreement about riggers should be using mental attributes and reaction when in VR.
It’s probably an even spilt between the camps however.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #511 on: <07-29-18/0234:31> »
I’m in complete agreement about riggers should be using mental attributes and reaction when in VR.
It’s probably an even spilt between the camps however.
And SRM apparently is leaning towards only-sensor-locks, which unfortunately means my wife will never play a Rigger in an Open Event again.
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Gingivitis

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« Reply #512 on: <07-29-18/1101:26> »
I think the argument for Agility goes like this:

Being able to shoot someone, or pick a lock, or not step on a twig when sneaking is a function of getting your meat-body to do what your mind wants. The mind wants these target hairs to line up and the trigger to be pulled before the target moves. That is Agility. Does your meat-body do what your mind wants in an effective manner?

When you are rigging you just substitute the word "car" for the word "meat-body". Hence Agility. The car becomes your meat body.
« Last Edit: <07-29-18/1103:01> by Gingivitis »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #513 on: <07-29-18/1252:29> »
I think the argument for Agility goes like this:

Being able to shoot someone, or pick a lock, or not step on a twig when sneaking is a function of getting your meat-body to do what your mind wants. The mind wants these target hairs to line up and the trigger to be pulled before the target moves. That is Agility. Does your meat-body do what your mind wants in an effective manner?

When you are rigging you just substitute the word "car" for the word "meat-body". Hence Agility. The car becomes your meat body.
The Argument in the book is you make the gestures.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #514 on: <07-29-18/1303:56> »
I think the argument for Agility goes like this:

Being able to shoot someone, or pick a lock, or not step on a twig when sneaking is a function of getting your meat-body to do what your mind wants. The mind wants these target hairs to line up and the trigger to be pulled before the target moves. That is Agility. Does your meat-body do what your mind wants in an effective manner?

When you are rigging you just substitute the word "car" for the word "meat-body". Hence Agility. The car becomes your meat body.
The Argument in the book is you make the gestures.
So you use the car's Agility for gunnery? Because in most cases when you are performing tasks, you use the vehicle's attributes for tests, not the physical attributes of the rigger. My primary argument for Logic is that using Gunnery through VR is by definition remote.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #515 on: <07-29-18/1340:49> »
I think the argument for Agility goes like this:

Being able to shoot someone, or pick a lock, or not step on a twig when sneaking is a function of getting your meat-body to do what your mind wants. The mind wants these target hairs to line up and the trigger to be pulled before the target moves. That is Agility. Does your meat-body do what your mind wants in an effective manner?

When you are rigging you just substitute the word "car" for the word "meat-body". Hence Agility. The car becomes your meat body.
The Argument in the book is you make the gestures.
So you use the car's Agility for gunnery? Because in most cases when you are performing tasks, you use the vehicle's attributes for tests, not the physical attributes of the rigger. My primary argument for Logic is that using Gunnery through VR is by definition remote.
In AR you can make gestures and use your Agility. VR this explanation fails.
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Sphinx

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« Reply #516 on: <07-29-18/1351:32> »
I think the argument for Agility goes like this:

Being able to shoot someone, or pick a lock, or not step on a twig when sneaking is a function of getting your meat-body to do what your mind wants. The mind wants these target hairs to line up and the trigger to be pulled before the target moves. That is Agility. Does your meat-body do what your mind wants in an effective manner?

When you are rigging you just substitute the word "car" for the word "meat-body". Hence Agility. The car becomes your meat body.

That's a good argument. But the counterargument here is that Agility is your meat-body's ability to carry out instructions from your mind, not your mind's ability to give them. Agility is intrinsic to your meat-body. When the vehicle replaces your meat-body, your Agility is no longer relevant.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #517 on: <07-29-18/1440:24> »
That's a good argument. But the counterargument here is that Agility is your meat-body's ability to carry out instructions from your mind, not your mind's ability to give them. Agility is intrinsic to your meat-body. When the vehicle replaces your meat-body, your Agility is no longer relevant.

The problem with that counter argument is that it argues away Reaction Enhancers having any effect on Jumped In / VR Rigging, and for that matter, even using Reaction for piloting when Jumped In / VR.

Either the Riggers Meat Body plays a role (using Reaction), or it doesn't (don't use Agility for Gunnery).
Can't have it both ways and be sensible.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #518 on: <07-29-18/1442:51> »
That's a good argument. But the counterargument here is that Agility is your meat-body's ability to carry out instructions from your mind, not your mind's ability to give them. Agility is intrinsic to your meat-body. When the vehicle replaces your meat-body, your Agility is no longer relevant.

The problem with that counter argument is that it argues away Reaction Enhancers having any effect on Jumped In / VR Rigging, and for that matter, even using Reaction for piloting when Jumped In / VR.

Either the Riggers Meat Body plays a role (using Reaction), or it doesn't (don't use Agility for Gunnery).
Can't have it both ways and be sensible.
Reaction has always been used for VR vehicle tests before, and is the one big special exception. So that isn't a valid argument, since it didn't come with extra exceptions in past editionsSR4.
« Last Edit: <07-29-18/1456:20> by Michael Chandra »
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #519 on: <07-29-18/1451:56> »
Reaction has always been used for VR vehicle tests, and is the one big special exception. So that isn't a valid argument, since it didn't come with extra exceptions in past editions.

Wrong.

In past editions, except maybe 4th, Riggers never went VR for rigging.  They just became the machine.

And you can't call upon the mistakes of previous editions to justify the mistakes of the current edition.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #520 on: <07-29-18/1455:26> »
Reaction has always been used for VR vehicle tests, and is the one big special exception. So that isn't a valid argument, since it didn't come with extra exceptions in past editions.

Wrong.

In past editions, except maybe 4th, Riggers never went VR for rigging.  They just became the machine.

And you can't call upon the mistakes of previous editions to justify the mistakes of the current edition.
So you are claiming that it was a mistake in SR4 that you used Reaction but not Agility, so SR5 using Reaction but not Agility would be wrong?_? If so, okay, guess there's no point to a public debate on this, since precedence doesn't matter. Bye.

Okay, time to bow out again, since it's ridiculous to keep having this 'yes but!', 'no but!' debate in the Errata topic.
« Last Edit: <07-29-18/1457:57> by Michael Chandra »
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #521 on: <07-29-18/1503:44> »
So you are claiming that it was a mistake in SR4 that you used Reaction but not Agility, so SR5 using Reaction but not Agility would be wrong?_?

I'm claiming that the moment the game changed from Riggers physically linking with the machine, to VR / Mental interaction, it was wrong to keep any physical attributes involved at all.

I mean, they should have learned from the 2nd / 3rd debates over whether or not Reaction Enhancers had any business being used while Jumped In, back when the Rigger used their "physical" parts of their brain and it was debated on if a Datajack used for Rigging could also be used for Decking.

Marcus

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« Reply #522 on: <07-29-18/1511:27> »
The VR thing in relation to vehicle riggers remains stupid. You're a limp veggie while riding your bike,  it's just not in keeping with fantasy and aesthetic of the Archtype. We need to let that crap go, and divide up drone rigger and vehicle riggers. As I suggested before. The solution is easy, drone rigger are now a subset of decker with an RCC addon to a deck, and Vehicle riggers are subset of street sams, with VRC as an addon to Wired Reflexes. We make a vehicle weapon mount skill, and drone weapon skill, make the drone one logic, and we make vehicle mount skill reaction, everyone is happy no more M.A.D.(ness).  This whole mess of an argument gets wrapped nice and tidy with a bow. 
« Last Edit: <07-29-18/1513:24> by Marcus »
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Xenon

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« Reply #523 on: <07-29-18/1539:34> »
The set of rules are very simple: You use the same attribute, skill and limit no matter if you are using manual operation, remote operation or jumped in (with the added rule that all actions you take while [remote] controlling a device use either the normal limit for that action or your Data Processing rating, whichever is lower; Due to SR5 p. 238 Control Device).

* Piloting use Reaction (Piloting is linked to Reaction)
* Gunnery use Agility (Gunnery is linked to Agility)
* Perception use Intuition (Perception is linked to Intuition)

Basically the only two exceptions to the above are:
1. Remote operation of vehicle (not drone) mounted weapons (which use Logic; Due to SR5 p. 183 Gunnery).
2. Sensor attacks (which use Logic and [Sensor]; Due to SR5 p. 184 Sensor Attacks).

Other than that you always use the same attribute, skill and limit no matter if you are using manual operation, remote operation or jumped in.


SR5 p. 237 Control Device
The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally.
« Last Edit: <07-29-18/1544:54> by Xenon »

Finstersang

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« Reply #524 on: <07-29-18/1615:38> »
I´m leaning heavily towards the Mental Attributes + Reaction, but the most important thing is that we get a clear solution here.
Even "Agility for Shooting always and everywhere" would be better than "LOL whatever  ::)"

A solution like this:

  • Agility for manual targetting (including remote control)
  • Logic for Sensor targetting (active and passive)

would be fitting as well, however in this case it´s even more  important to give the Signature Table an Overhaul and get Sensor Targetting out of the "too shitty to ever use"-corner. All possible targets except large vehicles*. have a negative modifiers right now, including metahumans at a whooping -3. A -3 modifier already means that a basic patrol Drone loadout (Pilot 3, Clearsight 3) is pretty much unable to do its job right now. Not to mention active targetting, which is almost guaranteed to result in a wasted action. Shouldn´t Metahumans and Critters be pretty easy to detect? Think about body heat, breathing, heartbeat... (It´s also weird that there are 3 seperate lines with the same -3 Modificator. Could it be that this table isn´t actually RAI, but an overlooked editing hickup?  ???)

Anyways, more reasonable would be something like this:
+3  Oversized Vehicles and Critters (i.e. Dragons), Fire Spirits (makes sense, right?)
+1  Large Metahumans (i.e. Trolls), Critters and Drones, Cars
+0  Medium-Sized Metahumans (i.e. Elves, Orks Humans), Critters and Drones, Motorcycles, Other Spirits
-1   Small Metahumans (i.e. Dwarfs), Critters and Drones
-3   Minidrones, Very Small Critters
-6   Microdrones
And also a +1 Modificator for Targets with spotted wireless Equipment/Presence.

*And Spirits, which are missing from the table whatever reason. Probably means that there is no modifier, but with the way spirits are "balanced" right now, I wouldn´t be surprised if we get an Errata that explicitly states that Spirits can´t be targetted by sensors at all  ::)
« Last Edit: <07-29-18/1742:40> by Finstersang »
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