[White_Ghost]

What are the costs for attributes and skill group ranks, so we can get an idea?

Certainly:

• Knowledge/Language Skills: New Rating x 1
• Active Skills: New Rating x 2
• Active Skill Groups: New Rating x 5
• Attributes: New Rating x 5
• Qualities: Custom (not required to be divisible by 5. Ex: The lucky Quality is now 12 karma)
• Complex forms: 4 Karma
• Spell/Ritual/Preparation: 5 Karma
• Power points(mystic adept) 2 Karma

[quindraco]

What are the costs for attributes and skill group ranks, so we can get an idea?

Certainly:

• Knowledge/Language Skills: New Rating x 1
• Active Skills: New Rating x 2
• Active Skill Groups: New Rating x 5
• Attributes: New Rating x 5
• Qualities: Custom (not required to be divisible by 5. Ex: The lucky Quality is now 12 karma)

Excellent, thanks!  Do you have the numbers on new spells and complex forms?

[White_Ghost]

Ah I apologize, I'll add those to the initial post above.

Personally, I agree with many others about the low cost of power points for mystic adepts. I would think that 5 karma would be better, even 4.

[quindraco]

What are the costs for attributes and skill group ranks, so we can get an idea?

Certainly:

• Knowledge/Language Skills: New Rating x 1
• Active Skills: New Rating x 2
• Active Skill Groups: New Rating x 5
• Attributes: New Rating x 5
• Qualities: Custom (not required to be divisible by 5. Ex: The lucky Quality is now 12 karma)
• Complex forms: 4 Karma
• Spell/Ritual/Preparation: 5 Karma
• Power points(mystic adept) 2 Karma

That's interesting!  I did some column conversions; Attributes assumes a human, but of course the better your Metatype, the more valuable your Attribute points if you put them in stats your metatype is good at.  Attributes and Skills assumes you try always try for a higher rating before moving on to something new (so 12 = 5+4+3, not 4+4+4, for Attribute E).
Attributes:
A: 425
B: 355
C: 285
D: 250
E: 215
Magic/Resonance:
A: Technomancer: 185, Mage: 215
B: Adept: 125, Aspect: 125, Technomancer: 98, Mage: 125
C: Adept: 56, Aspect: 45, Technomancer: 34, Mage: 55
D: Adept: 15, Aspect: 15
E: 0
Skills:
A: 469
B: 327
C: 203
D: 146
E: 126

[Makki]

why did you leave out the other two columns?

Metatype (Human)
A: 215 (Edge 7, Mag 6)
B: 160 (Edge 7, Mag 4) or 180 (Edge 7, Mag 6)
C: 125 (Edge 7)
D: 60
E: 15

Money: (assuming Karmagen, 1 karma = 2.500 Y )
A: 180
B: 110
C: 56
D: 20
E: 2.4


btw: What's the 2nd number in the skills column?

[quindraco]

why did you leave out the other two columns?

Metatype (Human)
A: 215 (Edge 7, Mag 6)
B: 160 (Edge 7, Mag 4) or 180 (Edge 7, Mag 6)
C: 125 (Edge 7)
D: 60
E: 15

Money: (assuming Karmagen, 1 karma = 2.500 Y )
A: 180
B: 110
C: 56
D: 20
E: 2.4

I left out money because I had no basis for setting a particular amount of nuyen equal to a particular amount of karma, and I left out metatype because of how complex it is analyzing its costs relative to things like Magic, Resonance, and Edge (for example, A, B, and C humans are *equal* if Magic/Resonance is E).

[Shinobi Killfist]

Ah I apologize, I'll add those to the initial post above.

Personally, I agree with many others about the low cost of power points for mystic adepts. I would think that 5 karma would be better, even 4.

You could make it 8 points and it would still make mystic adepts way way too powerful compared to normal mages.  And a standard mage aint a slouch.  At 8 karma per point it might almost be balanced at char gen but as the character grew in power he'd be getting more from each additional magic point than the mage would and in a relatively short while, he would be far better than the mage. 

Though on advancement side in general attributes are now even more valuable than they were in 4e and they still cost the same as a single skill group,  That is a serious cost discrepency, I am not sure how that could be missed yet again. 

[RHat]

If you forced the Mystic Adept to pay something for gaining power points after chargen - having to take it as a metamagic, for example, and thus taking it would mean not taking something else.

As for skill groups...  There is the fact that most of the time, taking a new rank of a skill group is going to be less costly than taking a rank of the attribute, because the attribute will be higher; both are options aimed at generalists.

[Mara]

As for skill groups...  There is the fact that most of the time, taking a new rank of a skill group is going to be less costly than taking a rank of the attribute, because the attribute will be higher; both are options aimed at generalists.

Depends on how high the skill group is. If you are a human, and are taking a Skill Group of Agility related skills,
and your agility is 6, and your Skill Group is 6...which is going to be cheaper to raise with Karma, assuming no
Exceptional Attribute is purchased? Yup..the Skill Group, because it CAN be raised. That is one of the big changes
people seem to be forgetting about: Skills now have a 12 cap, while Attributes still have their old caps. This means
that only a Troll will likely ever have a point where she/he is having to decide which is better at the higher(9+) levels without
augmentation.

Also, a question I asked earlier that seemed to have gotten overlooked: Can one still do Karma for Cash after Chargen
by RAW? If so, that would actually help level the playing field a bit if the Street Sam can trade in Karma for the extra
nuyen he/she needs to get that cyber-upgrade.

[Makki]

I left out money because I had no basis for setting a particular amount of nuyen equal to a particular amount of karma, and I left out metatype because of how complex it is analyzing its costs relative to things like Magic, Resonance, and Edge (for example, A, B, and C humans are *equal* if Magic/Resonance is E).

btw, I just calculated the most valuable combination: Metatype Human C, Attributes D,  Magic B, Skills A, Ress E
and the worst possible combination: Metatype Human A, Attributes E,  Magic C, Skills D, Ress B

the difference is 230 karma. You need a hell lot of roleplaying to make up for this handicap *g*

[Lysanderz]

Interesting. I wonder if I picked that array by sheer coincidence or subconscious math as I was building my Neo-Anarchist....

[Michael Chandra]

If you forced the Mystic Adept to pay something for gaining power points after chargen - having to take it as a metamagic, for example, and thus taking it would mean not taking something else.

After chargen I thought that actually was the only way for them to get extra Power Points, since they don't get it automatically through a Magic increase? But at chargen they kinda sound superior to Magicians, since they trade in Astral Projection and X karma (astral perception) for the ability to buy additional Power Points for X karma per PP. "Anything you can do, I can do as well, and I got extra tricks up my sleeve." Maybe there's something else we're missing, something only magicians get?_?

[quindraco]

I left out money because I had no basis for setting a particular amount of nuyen equal to a particular amount of karma, and I left out metatype because of how complex it is analyzing its costs relative to things like Magic, Resonance, and Edge (for example, A, B, and C humans are *equal* if Magic/Resonance is E).

btw, I just calculated the most valuable combination: Metatype Human C, Attributes D,  Magic B, Skills A, Ress E
and the worst possible combination: Metatype Human A, Attributes E,  Magic C, Skills D, Ress B

the difference is 230 karma. You need a hell lot of roleplaying to make up for this handicap *g*

Nah, no way, I bet I can beat you (the Magic/Resonance column return rate is awful since we have no equivalency between karma and being the listed type, so e.g. we can't distinguish in karma between being an aspected magician and a magician).  Ress is Resources, right?  Even at 1 karma = 2000 nuyen, which is a number I heard quoted on another forum, Resources is a pretty awful choice.  I'll leave Resources at E as well, since I have no idea how to set up a reasonable equivalency.

Skills A, Attributes B, Elf C, Magic D, Resources E is 469 for optimal skill allocation + 425 for optimal stat allocation on an Elf + 75 for Magic 5 = 969 + whatever you like for nuyen equivalency.
Skills A, Magic B, Human C, Attributes D, Resources E is 469 (skills) + 125 (not a technomancer) + 125 (Edge 2->7) + 250 (optimal attributes on a human) = 969 + nuyen equivalency

Never mind, I can't beat you.  :-P

[Makki]

well, I did write a quick code to calculate all possible permutations
only considering the values mentioned before, of course

[Michael Chandra]

That 2.000 confused me because I could have sworn I read 2.500 before.