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Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations

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Sichr

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« Reply #285 on: <11-07-13/0630:33> »
Hm. IDN about that. UV zone, the way I understand it, are "Matrix" real, which means you have no idea that you are power cell unless someone from outside tells you.

Mirikon

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« Reply #286 on: <11-07-13/1747:57> »
Not quite, Sichr. UV nodes are hyperrealistic, and often have rigidly enforced parameters, the equivalent of an uber-high level reality filter. If, for example, the UV host was an Arthurian landscape, your hacker's icon would change to that of an armored knight, their attack programs to a sword and lance, their defenses to armor and a shield, and so on. Patrol IC may take the form of armored knights, and may look for those not wearing the 'colors' of the kingdom. It is still the matrix, but the rules are different.

What you're describing, however, would be like what this wackjob scientist (Shalbermat, I think) did with his 'children'. He took a bunch of kids, and had them constantly hooked up to the matrix, perhaps from as young as newborns. They literally did not know they were in the Matrix, because they'd known nothing else. A technomancer, on the other hand, would know the difference, since they'd have lived outside before.
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« Reply #287 on: <11-07-13/1805:09> »
Not quite, Sichr. UV nodes are hyperrealistic, and often have rigidly enforced parameters, the equivalent of an uber-high level reality filter. If, for example, the UV host was an Arthurian landscape, your hacker's icon would change to that of an armored knight, their attack programs to a sword and lance, their defenses to armor and a shield, and so on. Patrol IC may take the form of armored knights, and may look for those not wearing the 'colors' of the kingdom. It is still the matrix, but the rules are different.

What you're describing, however, would be like what this wackjob scientist (Shalbermat, I think) did with his 'children'. He took a bunch of kids, and had them constantly hooked up to the matrix, perhaps from as young as newborns. They literally did not know they were in the Matrix, because they'd known nothing else. A technomancer, on the other hand, would know the difference, since they'd have lived outside before.
Some Technomancers believe that reality is fake and that the Matrix is the real world. A mancer from that stream would probably be all about being a brain in a jar.

Mirikon

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« Reply #288 on: <11-07-13/1829:00> »
Except that doing that would destroy their connection to the Resonance, DeathStrobe, unless they were fitted with the special ware that MCT made that drives them utterly insane in a matter of weeks.
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« Reply #289 on: <11-07-13/1847:48> »
What you're describing, however, would be like what this wackjob scientist (Shalbermat, I think) did with his 'children'. He took a bunch of kids, and had them constantly hooked up to the matrix, perhaps from as young as newborns. They literally did not know they were in the Matrix, because they'd known nothing else. A technomancer, on the other hand, would know the difference, since they'd have lived outside before.

Halberstam.  'Shelbramat' was an anagram of the name, used as the name of the 'school' for the brain-in-a-jar babies.  He first appeared in the fiction in the back of the original Matrix book, working for UCAS Data Systems, if I remember correctly - though I probably don't.  That, I vaguely recall, was owned by Renraku ... but again, I may be wrong on the details.  However, Halberstam might have been the most wonderful 'low-power' mundane boogieman coming out of 1st Edition.

I honestly do somewhat doubt that he's still seriously active; after all, with the advent of the 'jarhead', no doubt due to his hard work, his life's goals work is pretty much completed.  And while the brain-in-a-box and 'full conversion cyborgs' are a significant trope of cyberpunk, I do feel it was 'rushed into' during 4e ...

Some Technomancers believe that reality is fake and that the Matrix is the real world. A mancer from that stream would probably be all about being a brain in a jar.

Probably true - but a brain-belief finds it very, very difficult to override a body-reality.  All may be maya, illusion, but as the man says, until one is enlightened and can see maya for what it is, one must live within its rules ...
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Sichr

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« Reply #290 on: <11-08-13/0322:44> »
Not quite, Sichr. UV nodes are hyperrealistic, and often have rigidly enforced parameters, the equivalent of an uber-high level reality filter. If, for example, the V host was an Arthurian landscape, your hacker's icon would change to that of an armored knight, their attack programs to a sword and lance, their defenses to armor and a shield, and so on. Patrol IC may take the form of armored knights, and may look for those not wearing the 'colors' of the kingdom. It is still the matrix, but the rules are different.

What you're describing, however, would be like what this wackjob scientist (Shalbermat, I think) did with his 'children'. He took a bunch of kids, and had them constantly hooked up to the matrix, perhaps from as young as newborns. They literally did not know they were in the Matrix, because they'd known nothing else. A technomancer, on the other hand, would know the difference, since they'd have lived outside before.

Not so sure about that. Hackers being trapped in UV nodes are somrthing i do recall, ant talking about the diferencesbbetween meat and matrix world is none. For brain source of signals is indestinguishable(word?)

Mirikon

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« Reply #291 on: <11-08-13/1140:24> »
Hackers have been trapped in UV nodes, yes. But without the use of simsense conditioning (essentially brainwashing) they still KNEW they were in the matrix. The amount of processing required to make a UV host is already exorbitant. It would take even more to make a host that is indistinguishable from the real world, on top of the simsense conditioning programs to make the people forget they're in the matrix. And the moment they stepped out of that host, the whole thing would come crashing down. Even in the UV host, there are simple clues that you just can't get rid of without using enormous processing power, and constantly adjusting the programs in real time. For instance, consider if the setting of the host was a sprawl. Are you going to individually program every car, devil rat, NPC, and so on in the sprawl? Of course not, that would get insane, both in the time and processing required. No, you'll rely on scripted actions/reactions, traffic patterns, and so on. The problem is, unless they are raised to not know anything different (as with the movie Matrix or the Truman Show), the test subjects are going to notice the inconsistencies and patterns before too long. That is, unless you rely on conditioning, distractions, or both to keep them from noticing. But conditioning takes time, and too many convenient distractions is itself an indicator that something was wrong.

Now, that's over the short term (weeks to months). After that period, people will start adapting to the situation if they haven't found a way to escape it. You'll see them start forgetting details of their lives before, and have trouble remembering that they are in a simulation without contact from the outside. After a few years, you'll have a similar situation to Halberstam's children, where they didn't know they were in the matrix, though if they got out of the box, they could remember. But outside of evil science projects like Halberstam, what would be the reason for taking TMs and throwing them in a UV host using all that processing power for months or years? What possible benefit would the corp get? Remember, MCT wasn't doing this for giggles. They were using the jarhead TMs as 'living' IC in their nodes.
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« Reply #292 on: <11-08-13/1313:16> »
One of the Artifacts adventures traps players in a UV node without their being aware of it...
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Mirikon

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« Reply #293 on: <11-08-13/1323:46> »
Yes, but that is a special case, RHat. A short-duration event, with a dose of laes beforehand, and plenty of distractions (escaping a detention center while under fire) to keep them from really examining the situation. The situation we're talking about here is something that goes on for more than just a few hours, but continuing for weeks, months, or more.
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« Reply #294 on: <11-08-13/1435:02> »
Hackers have been trapped in UV nodes, yes. But without the use of simsense conditioning (essentially brainwashing) they still KNEW they were in the matrix. The amount of processing required to make a UV host is already exorbitant. It would take even more to make a host that is indistinguishable from the real world, on top of the simsense conditioning programs to make the people forget they're in the matrix. And the moment they stepped out of that host, the whole thing would come crashing down. Even in the UV host, there are simple clues that you just can't get rid of without using enormous processing power, and constantly adjusting the programs in real time. For instance, consider if the setting of the host was a sprawl. Are you going to individually program every car, devil rat, NPC, and so on in the sprawl? Of course not, that would get insane, both in the time and processing required. No, you'll rely on scripted actions/reactions, traffic patterns, and so on. The problem is, unless they are raised to not know anything different (as with the movie Matrix or the Truman Show), the test subjects are going to notice the inconsistencies and patterns before too long. That is, unless you rely on conditioning, distractions, or both to keep them from noticing. But conditioning takes time, and too many convenient distractions is itself an indicator that something was wrong.

Now, that's over the short term (weeks to months). After that period, people will start adapting to the situation if they haven't found a way to escape it. You'll see them start forgetting details of their lives before, and have trouble remembering that they are in a simulation without contact from the outside. After a few years, you'll have a similar situation to Halberstam's children, where they didn't know they were in the matrix, though if they got out of the box, they could remember. But outside of evil science projects like Halberstam, what would be the reason for taking TMs and throwing them in a UV host using all that processing power for months or years? What possible benefit would the corp get? Remember, MCT wasn't doing this for giggles. They were using the jarhead TMs as 'living' IC in their nodes.

Without a motivation outside profit Its pretty much for their own amusement I think.....

Sichr

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« Reply #295 on: <11-09-13/0819:54> »
Yes, but that is a special case, RHat. A short-duration event, with a dose of laes beforehand, and plenty of distractions (escaping a detention center while under fire) to keep them from really examining the situation. The situation we're talking about here is something that goes on for more than just a few hours, but continuing for weeks, months, or more.

You are defending wrong statements with lots of arguments. UV nodes are as real as reality is. I don`t see the need for philosophic discussion about how difficult this is and how much HW you need for this. As UV node is able to alter subjective time perception, it is quite easy to keep trapped hacker/TM as long as needed, and obviously also long enought to initiate and develop the UV addiction the the extent subject would not want to exit the node.

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« Reply #296 on: <11-09-13/1033:14> »
It still causes Essence loss, though. Any way you (hehe) slice it, TMs need their full bodies, regardless of their personal philosophies.
Scoop the brain out of a solipsist, the same thing happens.

Sichr

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« Reply #297 on: <11-09-13/1133:48> »
OK.
Now, we were "speculationg" on the nature of those beings overiding personalities of some people. And one of such hypothesis was, that those things may be personas of Technomancers previously being used in some experiments and possibly killed somehow, matrix personas being separated in process.

Mirikon

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« Reply #298 on: <11-09-13/1631:40> »
Then they would be e-ghosts, same as any other, without resonance abilities.
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« Reply #299 on: <11-09-13/1654:34> »
I dont see why resonance would be needed to rewrite someones synapses...