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chadawc

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« on: <04-16-13/0005:44> »
I was wondering if the slots for capacity on Military armor are separate from the Armor modification that can be done to the armor. For example the Fire Resistant modification 6 would take up 6 mod slots for medium military armor leaving it with 15 more mods left. The capacity for it how ever is 15 and that you could put in the enhanced strength rating 3 option that would take up 3 slots for the capacity but not effect the mod slots. I may be looking at this wrong and the capacity and mod slots may be one in the same but it doesn't read that way to me in the rules. Thank you for your time and help. 
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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #1 on: <04-16-13/0026:48> »
The capacity replaces the other modding system.
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Reaver

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« Reply #2 on: <04-16-13/0212:08> »
just remember this:


you pull out the milspec armor, the GM pulls out the milspec commandos, Milspec mages, and the Milspec drones.

shoot first, shoot straight, and get the hell outta Dodge keeps you alive longer then "Me Tank, look at Me In Armor"....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #3 on: <04-16-13/0225:13> »
just remember this:


you pull out the milspec armor, the GM pulls out the milspec commandos, Milspec mages, and the Milspec drones.

shoot first, shoot straight, and get the hell outta Dodge keeps you alive longer then "Me Tank, look at Me In Armor"....

Not at first. This is a trap far too many fall into. The whole "escalation" thing does not happen immediately, and it does not go straight to multiple Special Forces units with rocket launchers showing up to blow you up.

Yes, eventually bigger guns may very well be brought to bear, but security teams are not just going to "magically" turn into Mil-Spec commando squads with really big guns just because of one, two or even three times seeing someone using such gear--probably not even the fourth or fifth.
« Last Edit: <04-16-13/0241:40> by All4BigGuns »
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Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <04-16-13/0342:44> »
just remember this:


you pull out the milspec armor, the GM pulls out the milspec commandos, Milspec mages, and the Milspec drones.

shoot first, shoot straight, and get the hell outta Dodge keeps you alive longer then "Me Tank, look at Me In Armor"....

Not at first. This is a trap far too many fall into. The whole "escalation" thing does not happen immediately, and it does not go straight to multiple Special Forces units with rocket launchers showing up to blow you up.

Yes, eventually bigger guns may very well be brought to bear, but security teams are not just going to "magically" turn into Mil-Spec commando squads with really big guns just because of one, two or even three times seeing someone using such gear--probably not even the fourth or fifth.


this depends on the "realism" of your gam e(and I use that term loosely in a Sci-fi/Fantasy game :P)

Lets say you are using this armor on a run to a Corp facility located in the city (say a "B" zone like Tacoma and not in the heart of the Redmond Barrens where no one gives a crap :P)

So you get in the front door, and the shit hits the fan... you have security coming for you!!!
well, the first wave of the security are going to be your typical goons... a couple of drones armed with heavy pistols and tazer type weaponary. The guards are going to be in armored jackets armed with heavy pistols and tazers... your typical "excuse me Sir, you don't belong here" force......

Until they round the corner and go "OMG! WTF??!?! HE'S IN MILSPEC ARMOR???" At this point, realism sets in (or SHOULD) No guard is going to try to go toe to toe with anyone in Mil spec armor when they are so vastly out gunned. the guards will retreat while screaming bloody murder into their links for back up and give an assessment of the situation.

For now, it's not a rolling gun battle, for a case of containment, herding and control. The building Rigger (assuming he's still up) will start to use the building against the mil spec guy by locking doors, dropping gates, and playing with the lighting. The spider might try throwing some drones at the Runner to tie him up and slow him down, and the security guards will do what they can with out readily endangering themselves.

All said, a SWAT level team is probably about 5 to 10 minutes away, and this will include a Mage or two who will probably send a spirit or two after the runner (the spirits can get there much quicker.... 1 to 2 minutes)

Now, even a SWAT level team as only a fair chance to take down a milspec armored foe, so they will try to use novel and unconventional tactics rather then your typical 'we line up like ducks to be shot' that most people seem to think :P Overlapping fields of fire, flash bangs, drones, spirits, Mojo and the kitchen sink will be used.... anything that can throw off the Runner and not expose the SWAT team to deadly, lethal fire. Simply cause they too are only there to herd, and contain the Runner.

The REAL threat is the corp's own Military troops! now these bad boys generally are not sittingin a little room waiting to be called on, so they take time to get on site... say 30minutes to 90 minutes to mobilize and another 10 to get on site. And this is when the Runner is truly screwed!

But this is also the window that the Runner has to get the heck outta there, and A lot can happen in 40 minutes to two hours (like running out of ammo :P) And then there is also the fact that the Corps are not above calling in the Police (that is what the police are for after all!) and the police are not going to just send a squad car or two, they are going to send what ever they can to contain the Runners to the Corp facility, cause after all, they don't want or need some heavily armed crazy running around the streets of the city!

Mil spec armor is serious bad news for Runners, it paints a huge neon sign on you and makes your life harder then you can know.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Mirikon

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« Reply #5 on: <04-16-13/0402:30> »
I tend to give my characters multiple armor loadouts. I have a casual/public set (Lined coat or similar, or perhaps some holowear, depending on the character, with PPP). Not going to stand up to heavy assault, but it can be worn most anywhere without raising eyebrows. Then you have your 'work' set (sometimes this is the lined coat from before, or a chameleon suit, or heavier stuff depending on the character's armor max). Generally, this set will draw more attention if you, say, walk into a bar anywhere outside the Barrens wearing it. Then you have your "Drek is going DOWN" set. This is where milspec comes in, for those times when you're going in expecting a drekload of trouble, and you'll need the milspec to either blend in or just to survive.

Like Reaver said, after the first alarms go off, you're going to have escalating responses as time goes on. If the milspec is the difference between you getting bogged down in a firefight, and being able to break through before the real milspec boys show up, then you're going to want the milspec. And if you have the nuyen to spend on milspec, you might as well get the sucker ruthenium coated. That will help with the whole 'being seen' bit. The real key, though, is an exit plan, which doesn't stop once you're outside the facility. Finding someplace to change from your milspec (which conveniently hides your biometrics) into something more casual (and switch from the stolen van to your regular van while you're at it) is what you want to do. Then you've just got to act like a normal sheeple when the police stop you at the roadblocks, and let the Face do the talking.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #6 on: <04-16-13/1003:27> »
just remember this:


you pull out the milspec armor, the GM pulls out the milspec commandos, Milspec mages, and the Milspec drones.

shoot first, shoot straight, and get the hell outta Dodge keeps you alive longer then "Me Tank, look at Me In Armor"....

Not at first. This is a trap far too many fall into. The whole "escalation" thing does not happen immediately, and it does not go straight to multiple Special Forces units with rocket launchers showing up to blow you up.

Yes, eventually bigger guns may very well be brought to bear, but security teams are not just going to "magically" turn into Mil-Spec commando squads with really big guns just because of one, two or even three times seeing someone using such gear--probably not even the fourth or fifth.


this depends on the "realism" of your gam e(and I use that term loosely in a Sci-fi/Fantasy game :P)

Lets say you are using this armor on a run to a Corp facility located in the city (say a "B" zone like Tacoma and not in the heart of the Redmond Barrens where no one gives a crap :P)

So you get in the front door, and the shit hits the fan... you have security coming for you!!!
well, the first wave of the security are going to be your typical goons... a couple of drones armed with heavy pistols and tazer type weaponary. The guards are going to be in armored jackets armed with heavy pistols and tazers... your typical "excuse me Sir, you don't belong here" force......

Until they round the corner and go "OMG! WTF??!?! HE'S IN MILSPEC ARMOR???" At this point, realism sets in (or SHOULD) No guard is going to try to go toe to toe with anyone in Mil spec armor when they are so vastly out gunned. the guards will retreat while screaming bloody murder into their links for back up and give an assessment of the situation.

For now, it's not a rolling gun battle, for a case of containment, herding and control. The building Rigger (assuming he's still up) will start to use the building against the mil spec guy by locking doors, dropping gates, and playing with the lighting. The spider might try throwing some drones at the Runner to tie him up and slow him down, and the security guards will do what they can with out readily endangering themselves.

All said, a SWAT level team is probably about 5 to 10 minutes away, and this will include a Mage or two who will probably send a spirit or two after the runner (the spirits can get there much quicker.... 1 to 2 minutes)

Now, even a SWAT level team as only a fair chance to take down a milspec armored foe, so they will try to use novel and unconventional tactics rather then your typical 'we line up like ducks to be shot' that most people seem to think :P Overlapping fields of fire, flash bangs, drones, spirits, Mojo and the kitchen sink will be used.... anything that can throw off the Runner and not expose the SWAT team to deadly, lethal fire. Simply cause they too are only there to herd, and contain the Runner.

The REAL threat is the corp's own Military troops! now these bad boys generally are not sittingin a little room waiting to be called on, so they take time to get on site... say 30minutes to 90 minutes to mobilize and another 10 to get on site. And this is when the Runner is truly screwed!

But this is also the window that the Runner has to get the heck outta there, and A lot can happen in 40 minutes to two hours (like running out of ammo :P) And then there is also the fact that the Corps are not above calling in the Police (that is what the police are for after all!) and the police are not going to just send a squad car or two, they are going to send what ever they can to contain the Runners to the Corp facility, cause after all, they don't want or need some heavily armed crazy running around the streets of the city!

Mil spec armor is serious bad news for Runners, it paints a huge neon sign on you and makes your life harder then you can know.

That is not "realism". That is still a "magical" upgrade, and is just utterly ridiculous. If you want the "realism" stuff, number one, you have to remove everything from the game that does not exist in the modern day, real world (pretty much everything in the game), and number two, it will take several months for the "escalation" stuff to show any measurable increase.
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« Reply #7 on: <04-16-13/1422:43> »


That is not "realism". That is still a "magical" upgrade, and is just utterly ridiculous. If you want the "realism" stuff, number one, you have to remove everything from the game that does not exist in the modern day, real world (pretty much everything in the game), and number two, it will take several months for the "escalation" stuff to show any measurable increase.

well then please provide us with what you would consider to be a realistic (in a sci-fi/fantasy game) level of response to a typical run, let alone one where the Corp is VASTLY outgunned? I would be most interested on your view (So I can see where you are coming from)
« Last Edit: <04-16-13/1424:30> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #8 on: <04-16-13/1427:48> »
What is the biggest advantage corporate security has over a runner team? Numbers. Even with military armor, enough bullets in the air from enough people will take that "tank" down regardless of what the security team is using. Hell, they would go down even more quickly because the most likely runner to have that armor will have the capacity to take less Stun than Physical.

Sure, eventually the corporate security will have big enough guns to penetrate that armor, but until they've had probably around half a dozen incursions from people with such gear, the bottom line of profit would prevent them from being willing to expend the resources to do so.
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« Reply #9 on: <04-16-13/1507:48> »
What is the biggest advantage corporate security has over a runner team? Numbers. Even with military armor, enough bullets in the air from enough people will take that "tank" down regardless of what the security team is using. Hell, they would go down even more quickly because the most likely runner to have that armor will have the capacity to take less Stun than Physical.

Sure, eventually the corporate security will have big enough guns to penetrate that armor, but until they've had probably around half a dozen incursions from people with such gear, the bottom line of profit would prevent them from being willing to expend the resources to do so.

I guess we view things very differently.


We know from canon material that many Corps already maintain military level troops. And we know from various write ups that even their security has to deal with a variety of threats from the simple rambling hobo, to angry ex-wageslaves, to Neo-anarchist mobs, to shadowrunners.... Now, that said, not EVERY building a Corp owns is going to have military troops stationed in it. Nor is every building going to have Magical security. But you can bet that a Corp with a sizable presence in a city is going to have both (magical and military) troops somewhere in the sprawl.

As for the argument of that they WOULD NOT have said troops because of bottom lines... well that depends on what you consider to be the bigger drain on the bottom line. Dead security guards (and thus death payouts to surviving family), lost production from low morale ("My Corp can't protect me/doesn't care about me"), lost vital research and resources due to incursions and property damage.

 To me, it makes sense for them to have scaled security to handle all levels of threats that could possibly hurt the bottom line. After all, the guys with tazers and pistols are not going to make a mob of rioting Neo-anarchists back down.... But a squad of security personnel equipped with anti-riot gear, sub-machine guns, tear gas and sour dispositions will give them pause. but like I said earlier, they are probably NOT going to located at every facility a Corp owns in a sprawl, but located somewhere where they can respond to calls for help from all facilities in a reasonable amount of time.


but, that's just my opinion.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

JoeNapalm

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« Reply #10 on: <04-16-13/1524:26> »

If you're going into places that can't field a response to milspec gear, why is Mr. Johnson paying for overkill?

If it's a weefle corp, he can save money and hire weefle Runners.

You don't hire top talent to knock over the Stuffer Shack.


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« Reply #11 on: <04-16-13/1608:28> »

If you're going into places that can't field a response to milspec gear, why is Mr. Johnson paying for overkill?

If it's a weefle corp, he can save money and hire weefle Runners.

You don't hire top talent to knock over the Stuffer Shack.


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true, but in typical player (not Character) logic, they usually bring their biggest and baddest to every run!

"Hmmmm..... so the Johnson wants us to grab a hardcopy of file #11821-123a from the records room so Tikka-Toys has no back up for their next Tikka-Takka-Tonka toy...... Guess I'll bring my heavy military armor, my mini-gun, ballista backpack. and my tazer....."
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

JoeNapalm

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« Reply #12 on: <04-16-13/1617:04> »

If you're going into places that can't field a response to milspec gear, why is Mr. Johnson paying for overkill?

If it's a weefle corp, he can save money and hire weefle Runners.

You don't hire top talent to knock over the Stuffer Shack.


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true, but in typical player (not Character) logic, they usually bring their biggest and baddest to every run!

"Hmmmm..... so the Johnson wants us to grab a hardcopy of file #11821-123a from the records room so Tikka-Toys has no back up for their next Tikka-Takka-Tonka toy...... Guess I'll bring my heavy military armor, my mini-gun, ballista backpack. and my tazer....."

I guess I'm more Trench Coat than Mohawk.

If Mr Johnson is spending the money to hire that kind of hardware for a job, there's more to the job than meets the eye...

...either that, or Mr. Johnson is going to be pretty unhappy that you brought mini-guns and milspec armor (and all of the extra heat that accompanies this) on his milkrun.


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PeterSmith

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« Reply #13 on: <04-16-13/1618:42> »
But you can bet that a Corp with a sizable presence in a city is going to have both (magical and military) troops somewhere in the sprawl.

It's one thing to have a presence in the sprawl. It's another thing to be in the same building. I live in Chicago, when this place gets crowded it's nasty to move about. I have an old co-worker who moved to NYC. He said the daily crowds are about as bad as Chicago's busiest crowds. I can't imagine that a heavy response team would always be able to get from their staging facility out to where the runners are very quickly.
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #14 on: <04-16-13/1624:31> »

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