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Line of Sight

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blackangel

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« on: (01:53:53/02-19-13) »
The topic on radar is a bit too heavy so I try something else to understand SR mechanics.

With this said and writen :
"Line of Sight (LOS): The spell can target anything the caster can physically see or assense, regardless of the distance (see p. 173, SR4). The caster may not target anything that is completely behind cover or otherwise obscured. Since the caster only needs to see part of the target, a Perception Test may be necessary to see if the caster can spot enough of the target to cast. Visibility modifiers apply to the Spellcasting Test. Note that full body armor does not “conceal” the person within and prevent them from being targeted."

Can a mage blindfire someone ? Spotting someone behind a wall doesn't bother if you want to shoot at him and try to pass threw his cover.
But, is it the same for magic ?
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #1 on: (01:56:29/02-19-13) »
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).
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« Reply #2 on: (03:30:36/02-19-13) »
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?
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Reiper

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« Reply #3 on: (03:33:12/02-19-13) »
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?

Because you can't see them.

Spells are already borderline overpowered, being able to go through barriers would make it a bit too much. An AOE would be just as effective, just a bit more drain (thats why if I'd always have one direct and one aoe at the least).
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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #4 on: (03:50:52/02-19-13) »
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?

Because you can't see them.

Spells are already borderline overpowered, being able to go through barriers would make it a bit too much. An AOE would be just as effective, just a bit more drain (thats why if I'd always have one direct and one aoe at the least).
That makes no sense.  I said an area spell, the same as his example.  The only difference is direct instead of indirect(such as Powerball vs Blast).
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #5 on: (03:54:13/02-19-13) »
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?

Because you can't see them.

Spells are already borderline overpowered, being able to go through barriers would make it a bit too much. An AOE would be just as effective, just a bit more drain (thats why if I'd always have one direct and one aoe at the least).
That makes no sense.  I said an area spell, the same as his example.  The only difference is direct instead of indirect(such as Powerball vs Blast).

With Direct, you don't see it, you don't affect it. Period.
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RHat

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« Reply #6 on: (03:58:39/02-19-13) »
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?

Because you can't see them.

Spells are already borderline overpowered, being able to go through barriers would make it a bit too much. An AOE would be just as effective, just a bit more drain (thats why if I'd always have one direct and one aoe at the least).
That makes no sense.  I said an area spell, the same as his example.  The only difference is direct instead of indirect(such as Powerball vs Blast).

With Direct, you don't see it, you don't affect it. Period.

Indeed.  If you're having trouble conceptualizing it, this is how it goes:

   - Direct spells come into existence at the point you designate, which is any point you can see.  Points of origin and effect are the same.
   - Indirect spells travel toward a thing you can see, originating from you.  The points of origin and effect are different.
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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #7 on: (04:00:07/02-19-13) »
I don't understand.  You would have to see the spot you were targeting, sure, that's the same for indirect/direct... but both are area spells that center on that spot.  The spell I'm describing would be Powerball, by the way.  So you have to see the spot you want to hit, but it'd still hit the guy that you can't see behind the cover the same as an indirect spell.
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Glyph

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« Reply #8 on: (04:06:34/02-19-13) »
Area-effect direct combat spells don't send out an area of effect - they are transmitted to targets within an area of effect, if you can see them.  The sidebars on the manipulation of magic in the magic section go into more detail.  Being able to affect targets that are not visible is one of the few advantages of indirect spells, which create an actual physical manifestation of energy in the "real" world.

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« Reply #9 on: (04:07:43/02-19-13) »
Excellent answer, I'll go find that sidebar.  Thanks, Glyph.
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« Reply #10 on: (04:12:03/02-19-13) »
I found where it says that in the SR4A and Street Magic, but both say it unilaterally affects all spells, not just direct or indirect.

Quote
Area Eff ect: As described on p. 173, SR4, area spells aff ect
all valid targets within an area of eff ect. Area spells cannot aff ect
individuals who cannot be seen, even if they are within the area
designated for the eff ect. Magicians also may not selectively ignore
valid targets within the area of eff ect, including themselves.
Th e base area of eff ect can be centered anywhere within line of
sight and has a radius equal to the spell’s Force in meters.
« Last Edit: (04:19:56/02-19-13) by mtfeeney »
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #11 on: (05:12:03/02-19-13) »
The part that makes indirect spells able to affect unseen targets is under the indirect combat spells in the main book (it's in the Combat Spells section).
Quote
Indirect Combat spells may affect other targets that the caster cannot see if they are caught within the spell’s area of effect.

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« Reply #12 on: (06:55:56/02-19-13) »
Excellent, clear and concise.  Thanks for clearing that up.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #13 on: (07:53:16/02-19-13) »
Yeah, being able to hit things you can't see is one of the things that really lets spells like Fireball shine. Just need LOS to the target point, and FWOOSH! "Oh look, there's someone leaning out of that helicopter with a machine gun." Fireball inside the helicopter. "Well, the person with the machine gun is NOT happy with you. He's even less happy with the pilot who is giving off this really smoky smell, and is leaning forward on the controls like he's dead. Oh, that's because he is. Now for the happy fun crash!"

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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #14 on: (08:27:56/02-19-13) »
Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.
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Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.