[ShadowSmith]

So kinda new... okay by comparison to some of you VERY new ... to Shadowrun and after getting setup with Hero Labs and some of their add-ons I found that I'm a bit of a "Char Building" junky. I'm learned quite a bit from a few conversations here, especially the Archetypes thread...

One thing that I've noticed (especially after getting to play over the last couple months) that getting as many passes as possible is paramount to optimizing or simply building for dice (might be one and the same ... might just be "newbish"). I suppose it's a universal truth, the more chances you have to act and react, the better your chances of coming out of a situation better off than when you entered it (I consider "still alive" as better off, especially where Shadow Running is concerned). I have seen the myriad of threads, posts and comments comparing the initiative system of 4E to previous versions and the ever debated Street Samurai... It's not my intention to rehash that. I'm looking for a "devil's advocate" for a 1IP character ... is it simply to build a particular flavor of character for the sake of role playing (I hope the GM is sympathetic to the "sake of role playing" because the combat isn't)

[UmaroVI]

First, keep in mind that "1 IP is bad" and "get as many IPs as possible" are not really the only options. What I think is actually the case is that there's some diminishing returns after the 2nd IP, and very large diminishing returns after the 3rd. It's not really worth getting 4 IPs in most cases, and frequently not worth getting 3, but it is worth getting 2 with a few exceptions.

The first exception is if you aren't actually interested in being good at combat, and are an adept. Increased Reflexes is really expensive, and 'ware costs you IPs. If you're a mage, you can get cheap IPs from a sustaining focus, if you're a mundane you can get cheap IPs from Wired Reflexes 1, if you're a technomancer you can just use VR.

The second exception is if you are really tight on resources at character creation and are willing to just use drugs (cram/jazz) and/or suffer some until you can afford to upgrade later. This is mostly going to be if you are a mundane who wants to get a lot of high-cost 'ware aside from Wired Reflexes, like a hacker who wants a lot of cyberlimbs. You then really want Synaptic Boosters, and it blows to have to throw out and replace 80000ny SB 1. If you're an adept, you should just get the adept power then lose it when you get SB.

As far as the diminishing returns go: 2 IPs is twice as many as 1, and the 2nd IP comes up very often. 3 IPs is only 50% more than 2, and the cost is usually about or a bit higher than 50% more than the second: 2->3 for wired/MBW, .5->1 for SB, 1.5->2.5 for Increased Reflexes. All of those also give +1 reaction, which is good. On the other hand, though, the 3rd IP both doesn't always come up, and is less important than the 2nd - there's a good chance the fight has already been decided by then.

The 4th IP is only 1/3 more than 3, and costs way more than 33% more than the 3rd. WR/MBW jump from 3 to 5 essence, SB jumps from 1 to 1.5, Increase Reflexes jumps from 2.5 to 4. They do offer +1 reaction, again, which at a certain point is worth it (and it's not as bad for adepts if they can get a Way, or Way+Cheese Gaesa to discount it), but it's still a very large investment for a marginal improvement.

[ShadowSmith]

So your perspective is spend wisely and only be left behind a fraction of the time... an extremely potent point. As far as how often multiple IPs come up is completely dependent on the GM of course. So in the event of not knowing the GM would you decide differently? If so, would return on investment be your only consideration?

[Ympulse]

Unless you're a main combat character, that third IP is generally not worth it, especially since the only goons that would be around in the third IP are the ones you don't want to mess with to begin with.

[emsquared]

So your perspective is spend wisely and only be left behind a fraction of the time... an extremely potent point. As far as how often multiple IPs come up is completely dependent on the GM of course. So in the event of not knowing the GM would you decide differently? If so, would return on investment be your only consideration?

I'd say it more depends on the group you Run with than the GM. Generally, Runners should be entering into a situation only where they have the optimal advantage, including gun-fights, and the GM should generally allow that route to be a possibility (with proper legwork, etc.). Minimal noise, minimal killing (the more bodies, the more someone is gonna care). But if you're in a group that likes to go in guns blazing (or are playing a campaign styled to be very combat-heavy), sure, later IPs and refreshed initiatives will come up a lot more.

[Ethan]

Must Haves:

- Perception
- Infiltration
- A Social Skill

Why:

Perception: A 'runner that doesn't know what's going around them is a dead 'runner.
Infiltration: You're not a Sunrunner, you hafta be sneaky sometimes.
Social: Con or Etiquette usually lets you go through with life without being a bumbling oaf.

These deserve 1-3 points at least and can be ignored if your character concept doesn't jive with that.


A 1 IP character must maximize that Initiative Pass. A mundane character would do well to invest in some Automatics and provide suppressive fire for his team. Or, use Heavy Weapons such as a Grenade Launcher and make it difficult to be hit/seen or just blow the other guys up.

Alternatively, you could turn to magic or the matrix. A Magician doesn't really need multiple IPs, especially if he has summoned a Spirit to do the fighting for him. Likewise, Hackers and Riggers, and normal folks, can boss around some Drones.

Having 1 IP is limiting but it's not the end of the world as long as you don't intend to be a primary combat character. You'll need at least 2 IP then, and would be more comfortable with 3.

[ShadowSmith]

I think your (EM^2 and Ethan's) posts go hand in hand. Personally, I'm not the "I have/need to know it for myself or it doesn't count" kind of guy, but I can see how a person might want or need that for themselves. From my perspective (absences not with standing) so long as someone can sneak and find, and they can relay that info to you, yer good!

The character I play is an Idiot Combat Monster (Berserking Minotaur with 9 Str & Body, trained in martial arts with Oblibious and Poor Self-Control - Combat Monster). Since this is my first Shadowrun character, I wanted to keep it basic. He fits that primary combat char persona you mentioned.

[emsquared]

I think your (EM^2 and Ethan's) posts go hand in hand. Personally, I'm not the "I have/need to know it for myself or it doesn't count" kind of guy, but I can see how a person might want or need that for themselves. From my perspective (absences not with standing) so long as someone can sneak and find, and they can relay that info to you, yer good!

The character I play is an Idiot Combat Monster (Berserking Minotaur with 9 Str & Body, trained in martial arts with Oblibious and Poor Self-Control - Combat Monster). Since this is my first Shadowrun character, I wanted to keep it basic. He fits that primary combat char persona you mentioned.

I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to get out of this thread.

You asked for an argument for a 1IP character (I think anyway, at first I thought you wanted general standard inclusions, like FFFBA, audio and viz enhancements, etc.), Umaro gave you a very thoughtful and accurate analysis on the values of each level of IPs, and you seem to not want to accept it as being valid on the grounds that, "what if you don't know what kind of game you're gonna be playing?" or "what if you're just the meat-shield, killer?"... I don't get it.

Also, I didn't say anything regarding, must haves or even a "needing to know for yourself" approach, while I was validating Umaro's statement that it depends on your role, I was more saying that your view of "the GM controls the way a run goes or how a group plays" is wrong. The players should determine how the game is played, the GM should allow them to tell that story in the context of his vision.

So, if players want to build 1 IP characters, the GM should be aware of that and account for that, regardless of the character's role, unless he's that kind of GM that looks for the TPK because the players didn't "do things the way they should have been done".

[ShadowSmith]

My bad, I was unclear on that... I wasn't asking for things that ought to be included as a standard... but more from my perspective (immature as it is) it seemed as though you'd ALWAYS want to include things to boost your IPs. I figured there was probably a different perspective, which was provided by all of you quite well I think. It has opened a different viewpoint for me.

As far as accepting his response or not, I absolutely accepted it. My follow up question was to find out if say he was at maybe a convention playing shadowrun and didn't know the GM who was playing, if he would following the same perspective. Umero hasn't responded, but I took Ympulse's response to say that generally speaking, experienced players didn't consider IP:3 worth the expense unless you're trying to be a combat monster.

Ethan's response was possibly a bit twisted compared to my intention (that I didn't convey well enough). However, as I read it, I thought that he was offering what he thought was important with regards to character creation as well as another comment about 1 IP characters.

The "need to know for yourself" comment was strictly regarding having a character who can perceive, shadow, and be social ... MY character if required, wouldn't notice, would only cast a shadow, and simply be a social disgrace ... in short he probably wouldn't have accepted (or been offered) that job.

As far as how a GM runs a game... I doubt that I'm experienced enough to discuss GM'ing philosophies. I can't disagree at all with how you've said a GM should run a game. A scenario should be concretely presented, but the GM should be ready to follow whatever path or method the players decide to pursue. The GM should be able to set a framework around the mission/story so that whichever way the players decide to skin the proverbial cat, fits inside of the rest of what might be happening. As much as I completely agree, I believe that whoever is able to do that would be one considered among the best of GM's. To have a GM like that would be awesome!

As far as the original post... we can consider it answered. Thank you very much!

[UmaroVI]

Generally speaking, the less I know about the GM/game, the more I'd be inclined to make a more flexible character and I'd be likely to go with a 2-3 IP character who could do more things besides shoot people.

[farothel]

One of the things you should consider is that if you're the only 1IP character in the game, and all the others have 2-3 IPs, you're going to spend quite some time waiting until it's your turn again.