[Medicineman]

So, based on the FAQ, it seems quite clear that metahumans and sapient critters have a set hard cap or augmented maximum to their physical attributes.
Well,Well
Its not the first Time(and I'm afraid not the Last either) that the FAQ contradict the RAW !
It definitely says that the Physical attributes of Vessel and Spirit add together .There is now Hardcap in the RAW
(and the NPCs are made up after this).
It also makes sense with a High level Spirit
F.E. a Lvel 10 Possesing spirit inhabits a normal Human.With the FAQ it's STR would be capped at 9
Same spirit inhabitating a dead Body would have STR 10
Makes no Sense ImO

with different Dances
Medicineman

[Charybdis]

F.E. a Lvel 10 Possesing spirit inhabits a normal Human.With the FAQ it's STR would be capped at 9
Same spirit inhabitating a dead Body would have STR 10
Makes no Sense ImO

I thought that dead bodies still used their previous strength. So a Dead troll (Str=10) possessed by F10 now Str = 20
From memory, troll maximum is 12 +50% = 18?

[Billy_Club]

Charybdis is correct. Pg. 86 of Street Magic on dead vessels.  Not only are their stats the same as in life, but they degrade 1 point/week until they are prepared (enchanted) at which point it drops to 1 point/month.  However, as an inanimate vessel there would be no augmented maximum anymore based on what I'm reading.

Still like to know if there is a hidden rule out there somewhere about augmented maximums and critters (aside from the +/- 3 point alpha critter reference in the core book which I don't believe to be the same thing).

[Tagz]

So, based on the FAQ, it seems quite clear that metahumans and sapient critters have a set hard cap or augmented maximum to their physical attributes.
Well,Well
Its not the first Time(and I'm afraid not the Last either) that the FAQ contradict the RAW !
It definitely says that the Physical attributes of Vessel and Spirit add together .There is now Hardcap in the RAW
(and the NPCs are made up after this).
It also makes sense with a High level Spirit
F.E. a Lvel 10 Possesing spirit inhabits a normal Human.With the FAQ it's STR would be capped at 9
Same spirit inhabitating a dead Body would have STR 10
Makes no Sense ImO

with different Dances
Medicineman

Actually, it's not contradicting the RAW.  By RAW magical attribute enhancement is capped by augmented maximums.  The rules for possession do not state an exclusion or exception to this rule.  Ergo, the rule applies.  The only way it wouldn't apply without a clear statement of exception is if it was not magical in nature, cybernetic in nature, or any other catagory mentioned in SR4A p 68 (although many include a few not mentioned due to common sense as well as this rule existing before genetech and nanotech, etc.).

Interesting to note though that the writer of the possession rules INTENDED for spirits to break those hard caps, but the language was written ambiguously and neglected a clear exception to the rule.  Not the first time someone wrote a rule with one intent and didn't use completely clear language.  Besides that, playtesting revealed it to be unbalancing, giving possession spirits a clear advantage as well as a complete break from a mechanic that is universal in other forms of enhancement, hence the quote by Synner.

Though your spot on about the possessed dead body.  I like to look at it as the caps are in place not so much as "this is all the spirit can enhance" so much as "this is the most the spirit can enhance without killing the host".  Which is why I made "Spirit Burn", a spirit redlining rule.

Spirit Burn (Redlining Spirits):
Available to all Possession spirits.  A Simple Action may be spent by a Possession Spirit to allow it to exceed it's vessel's Augmented Maximums.  Physical Attributes may be increased to the spirit's Force.  This is stressful to both vessel and spirit and will cause 2x the amount of raised attribute values each combat turn to both.  Use body to resist, tracking vessel and spirit tracks separately.  Spirits will almost never Burn willingly and must usually be ordered with use of a service, this counts as spirit abuse in most cases.

[Billy_Club]

Spirit Burn (Redlining Spirits):
Available to all Possession spirits.  A Simple Action may be spent by a Possession Spirit to allow it to exceed it's vessel's Augmented Maximums.  Physical Attributes may be increased to the spirit's Force.  This is stressful to both vessel and spirit and will cause 2x the amount of raised attribute values each combat turn to both.  Use body to resist, tracking vessel and spirit tracks separately.  Spirits will almost never Burn willingly and must usually be ordered with use of a service, this counts as spirit abuse in most cases.

I don't follow.  Stats can be raised to spirit's Force?  So does this mean a Force 6 spirit can raise a vessels stats to 6 or by 6?

2x the amount of raised attribute values each combat turn to both... so if you raise a vessels Bod, Agi, Str, Rea (say they start at 4 each) all to 8, then you are taking 32 damage to both the vessel and the spirit seperately?  This doesn't seem like it does anything because it would be entirely unusable.

I know this is a rule you are offering on your own, but I don't get it.

Also, anyone with critter augmented maximum suggestions yet?

[Tagz]

Good catch, that's a typo on my part.  It should be additive.

On the math, well, I admit I wasn't clear on the point that it's the difference between the character's augmented maximum and the raised value.  Sorry, this was written for my group and I hadn't gone over the language with a fine tooth comb to ensure the intent.  I understand a little bit now how the writers feel after they see their rules interpreted by people.  I also forgot to write it as "up to", allowing partial increases.

Anyhow, your example Spirit Burn wouldn't be necessary or helpful.  If the Natural values are 4 and a Possession spirit possesses them, 8 is well within their augmented maximums.

So instead lets take an example of a human with [Bod 3 Str 4(6) Agi 6(7) Rea 5(], possessed by a Force 4 spirit.  Possessed the human will have [Bod 3(7) Str 4(9) Agi 6(9) Rea 5(9)], 9 being the augmented maximum cap.  If Spirit Burn was used then all the human would become: [Bod 3(7) Str 4(10) Agi 6(11) Rea 5(12)].  For figuring the stress damage to host and spirit we tally the total points above the augmented max of 9, so 1 from Str, 2 from Agi, 3 from Rea.  Our total damage per turn is 12P, resisted separately each combat turn. 

The separate resists is so that the spirit could potentially kill it's host, and having a dead host means that it no longer is subject to attribute caps.  I put that in so that it can be used strategically to kill opponents and enhance your spirit at the same time.

I'm going to work on the language of my little house rule and see if I can't clean it up a bit.

[Billy_Club]

I'm assuming the smiley is supposed to be an 8?  lol

OK, I'm seeing now what you were going for.  Allowing for a little wiggle room perhaps with getting some more out of a normal human, but the burn damage still seems a bit high.  With your example of 12 damage, that host is burnt out in two or three turns.  Granted, this is plenty for a combat, but that means going through a fair number of vessels.  I'd also argue that doing this to an unwilling vessel is evil, spirit abuse, and probably both. 

When you put in to track damage separately I initially assumed that meant both the spirit and the vessel took damage, but now I think I see what you intended.  (still think that damage is a bit rough for anything other than intentionally killing off vessels though).

Back on topic a tad:  Anyone find anything on better critter rules for augmented maximums?  Would be a joy to learn they are out there.  You would have thought they would have made it into Running Wild, but alas, same old.

[Tagz]

That damage is very rough.  But then Redlining a cyberlimb is equally painful.

If you Redline a cyberlimb and increase EVERY physical stat by 2 you'll probably see a similar result.

As far as critter maxes, sadly no.  There doesn't seem to be a great guildline for them. 

One could assume that for non-paracritters they are already at their natural maxes.  When looking at the genetic modification Attribute Enhancement (Mundane) it increases an attribute by 50%.  Looks fairly similar to the natural max x 1.5 = augmented max.
Though in the case of Attribute Enhancement I'm not certain this counts as a augmented value, but rather may be an increase in Natural Max given the wording under Genetic Modifications.

Anyhow, I like to consider the critter's natural stats as their maximum values.  It's a harsh world out there, critters need to be strong to survive.  Really, they should have mentioned critter augmented maxes when they introduced biodrones, even if it was just to say they ignore them (though I don't know why they would).  A pretty large oversight in my opinion.

[Ten-Hex]

Tagz is spot-on pointing out that without an explicit exception, attribute enhancement from possession follows the general rule for attribute enhancement - limited by augmented maximums. Even then, they are nasty.

Digital Grimoire has a decent writeup on how to run spirits with the Possession power, which unfortunately didn't put in a clear statement about possession of living targets (which would have been a perfect place to reinforce the commentary in the FAQ). It does, however, point out that commanding a spirit to possess a particular object requires a service in and of itself... plus, left to its own devices a spirit will possess what is most appropriate to the summoner's tradition. It even suggests applying negative modifiers to the possession test if the spirit takes a complex action to jump into an inappropriate vessel, plus making the spirit unhappy to be forced into such a vessel. (Having the spirit world slotted off at your summoner is solely a RP thing, but I don't know a GM who wouldn't salivate at the magician havng the spirit world out to get him.)

Speaking of Digital Grimoire, the possession writeup suggests that the hardened armor gained from ItNW during possession applies to the armor and encumbrance rules. So using Tagz example above, the Body 3 character possessed by the force 4 spirit is going to gain 8/8 hardened armor, suffering a -1 to Agility and Reaction if he's wearing no other armor. I'm not sure how I feel about that... it flies in the face of rules for mystic armor power, the armor spell, etc. However, even if it's in a pdf-only supplement that counts as RAW(?)

[Tagz]

Well, Ten-Hex, if we follow that guideline of a spirit's armor adding to encumbrance (and SR4A p160 doesn't exclude this possibility, haven't checked other sources yet) your example wouldn't be encumbered.

Our Body 3 character would have a unencumbered armor limit of 6 sure, but once possessed by the Force 4 spirit his body also increases, becoming Body 3(7).  His new max armor before encumbrance is 14.  So he/she will easily use the spirit's armor without problem and can stack on an additional 6 points.

It's only when you've got a character near his/her Body Augmented Maximum and wearing a ton of armor already that this would become a problem.  So long as the character's Body doesn't cap out the increase from the spirit will allow it to wear the new armor.

Course, that's only if you play with that rule.  I think a lot of tables may consider spirit armor to be "natural", like a troll's +1, and doesn't apply to encumbrance.

[James McMurray]

It does, however, point out that commanding a spirit to possess a particular object requires a service in and of itself... plus, left to its own devices a spirit will possess what is most appropriate to the summoner's tradition.

It also clearly states that possesion does not require a service if it's part of another command. For instance, if you command a spirit to use Concealment on you and your group, it will use Materialize or Possession as appropriate prior to using Concealment, since it has to be physically present to use physical powers. The only time Possession should count as a service is if the mage is commanding that a specific target be possessed. For eample, when the houngan in our group gets himself possessed so he'll have the higher attributes all day.

Speaking of Digital Grimoire, the possession writeup suggests that the hardened armor gained from ItNW during possession applies to the armor and encumbrance rules. So using Tagz example above, the Body 3 character possessed by the force 4 spirit is going to gain 8/8 hardened armor, suffering a -1 to Agility and Reaction if he's wearing no other armor. I'm not sure how I feel about that... it flies in the face of rules for mystic armor power, the armor spell, etc. However, even if it's in a pdf-only supplement that counts as RAW(?)

I'm not sure which part of the write-up you're refering to, but ItNW most definitely does not count for encumbrance.

FAQ: "Any worn armor counts for purposes of the armor encumbrance rules (p.161, SR4A); implants and magical spells or powers do not."

[Billy_Club]

Speaking of Digital Grimoire, the possession writeup suggests that the hardened armor gained from ItNW during possession applies to the armor and encumbrance rules. So using Tagz example above, the Body 3 character possessed by the force 4 spirit is going to gain 8/8 hardened armor, suffering a -1 to Agility and Reaction if he's wearing no other armor. I'm not sure how I feel about that... it flies in the face of rules for mystic armor power, the armor spell, etc. However, even if it's in a pdf-only supplement that counts as RAW(?)

I'm not sure which part of the write-up you're refering to, but ItNW most definitely does not count for encumbrance.

FAQ: "Any worn armor counts for purposes of the armor encumbrance rules (p.161, SR4A); implants and magical spells or powers do not."

He's referring to Pg. 11 of Digital Grimoire, bottom right hand last paragraph where the text implies invoking this rule (probably equivalent to a houserule) as a GM's prerogative.  Personally, I don't think the armor boost should apply either, but as Tagz pointed out its usually irrelevant anyway.

Not finding or hearing about any alternatives, I'm probably going to go with 1 1/2 of base stat as an augmented maximum for critters.  While this might lead to some weird (and high) numbers, in afterthought it isn't so much more blasphemous than some of the metavariant, surge, etc. maximums out there.