[kirk]

I have a young minmaxing player who wants a mage with full arm stacked with agility. That much I allowed.

He wants to be able to shapechange (spell) and claims the arm would change with him; that it would be come a limb as appropriate to the shape, with augmentation.

I'm leaning hard toward "no" but am interested to see if some here think it should be "yes" - and reasons why.

[Mason]

The arm does change with him...into the form he is becoming, Unaugmented. Shapechange is bad enough already, no need to do that!

On another note, what are the augmented maximums of critters? If I have a mage chapechange into a bear and get 6 hits, he really shouldn't have bear Agility + six.

[Medicineman]

He paid for it in Essence so the Cyberarm(with all Gimmicks) became Part of him
so it Transforms with the Mage (Into A Cyberpaw ,Horseleg or whatever)

with a Transformed Dance
Medicineman

[Malathis]

From pg. 87 of Runners companion on Shapeshifter charachters.

In practice, this means that shapeshifters can only accept
deltaware implants, and only in their natural animal forms. These
implants do not carry over to their human form, but they don’t
disappear either—they’re simply not available while the character
is in human form.

Useing that as a precedence I would say that the in a changed form the the arm doesn't function and is replaced with a normal limb for the form the charachter is in. Once they drop the spell the arm and it's full functionality returns.

[Thermo]

From pg. 87 of Runners companion on Shapeshifter charachters.

In practice, this means that shapeshifters can only accept
deltaware implants, and only in their natural animal forms. These
implants do not carry over to their human form, but they don’t
disappear either—they’re simply not available while the character
is in human form.

Useing that as a precedence I would say that the in a changed form the the arm doesn't function and is replaced with a normal limb for the form the charachter is in. Once they drop the spell the arm and it's full functionality returns.

Just to play devil's advocate, does that mean that a character who doesn't have any legs gets them back if he turns into an animal form? After all, if the character had twin cyberlegs, their meat legs are gone but managed to re-grow them to become, say, a wolf.

[Mason]

From pg. 87 of Runners companion on Shapeshifter charachters.

In practice, this means that shapeshifters can only accept
deltaware implants, and only in their natural animal forms. These
implants do not carry over to their human form, but they don’t
disappear either—they’re simply not available while the character
is in human form.

Useing that as a precedence I would say that the in a changed form the the arm doesn't function and is replaced with a normal limb for the form the charachter is in. Once they drop the spell the arm and it's full functionality returns.

Just to play devil's advocate, does that mean that a character who doesn't have any legs gets them back if he turns into an animal form? After all, if the character had twin cyberlegs, their meat legs are gone but managed to re-grow them to become, say, a wolf.

Yes. The spell states you become an average specimen of whatever species you are shifting to, with +1 per net hit to all Physical Attributes of the assumed form. The average critter has all it's limbs, and doesn't have cyberlimbs.

[Medicineman]

The average critter has all it's limbs, and doesn't have cyberlimbs.

So You're saying that his Cyberware transforms back to Flesh and Blood ?
All Cyberware (Cybereyes, boosted Reflexes )?
Bioware Too ?
And You don't think that if the developers would've mentioned it  if it would be that way
and You ignore/forget that they often mention that Cyber(Bio)ware that is paid for in Essence becomes part of the body (casting through Cybereyes f.E.)

I don't think so

with a doubtful Dance
Medicineman

[rasmusnicolaj]

If a cyberlimb then changes with the spell does it then become a cyber animal limb og does it stay in its original form because the shapechange spell doesn't change that part?
A cat with human sized raptor hind legs would look kind of stupid 

Basically I agree with Mason that you become a average critter with no cyber- or bioware. Else the transformation would be rather hard to figure out. If you have a cyberarm with strength 9 and transforms into a cat would it then be a cat with an arm as strong as a troll? Strange I think for a maxed out cat cyberlimb whuold never be that strong (if anybody would ever made such a limb).

Rasmus

[Carmody]

The average critter has all it's limbs, and doesn't have cyberlimbs.

So You're saying that his Cyberware transforms back to Flesh and Blood ?
All Cyberware (Cybereyes, boosted Reflexes )?
Bioware Too ?
And You don't think that if the developers would've mentioned it  if it would be that way
and You ignore/forget that they often mention that Cyber(Bio)ware that is paid for in Essence becomes part of the body (casting through Cybereyes f.E.)

I don't think so

with a doubtful Dance
Medicineman

Well, I agree that this is strange that the dev do not mention what happens to cyberware/bioware, however this statement applies whatever the chosen solution.
Plus, you mention that as the cyber is paid for in Essence it becomes part of the body. This is for me an argument in favor of Mason understanding:
   - the cyber/bio is part of your body
   - your body is transformed into another critter
   - therefore your limb is transformed also
and to me it makes more sense that your limb is transformed in a standard limb that in a cyberlimb.

Eh, if magic was able to change limbs in cyberlimbs, why would we bother with insane Force attribute boost (or armor, or whatever) spells?

[Medicineman]

If a cyberlimb then changes with the spell does it then become a cyber animal limb og does it stay in its original form because the shapechange spell doesn't change that part?
Why wouldn't it transform the Cyberleg ?
The Spell transforms the other leg (and Arms) too, so why shouldnt it ?
the Cyberleg is part of the Body, so it will be transformed too, just like every other Cyber (or Bioware )

- the cyber/bio is part of your body
   - your body is transformed into another critter
   - therefore your limb is transformed also

It is transformed into an Animal Cyberleg
If You assumme, that a Cyberleg will be transformed into a normal (Flesh & Blood) Animal Leg
than you also have to assume that every other Cyber & Bioware will be transformed too thus rendering it Nonfunktional, but this creates (ImO) too many Problems and is also wrog (I'm sorry that I don't find the right Words for it in English)
Don't make the Game unnessecary complicated

with an easy Dance
Medicineman

[Carmody]

Medicineman, I understand your concern and in fact I was not clear: I assume that all cyber/bio will become non functional when shapeshifted, including but not limited to cyber limbs.

I do not understand why it complicates the game to assume that all cyber/bio is transformed and rendered non-functionnal. For me it is simpler (but I have to admit none of my players uses that spell, so I speak in theory).
With my solution you just take the baseline critter stats + nets hits.
If I were to assume that all cyber/bio is still working I would have to take all that into account (review all cyber/bio to find out and apply the different bonuses). That seems more complicated to me.

[Thermo]

It sounds like the two trains of thought are that:

a) the animal form is reflective, at least appearance-wise, of the original human form
b) the animal form is that of the original animal, albeit bulked up to reflect the skill of the caster, and is totally independent of the original appearance

I'm personally inclined to believe that it's path "b". While it might be reasonable on a wolf to have a cyberpaw, what about if the character turns into a bird? Cyberwing? Begins to lose me a little there. Plus, one of the prime benefits of turning into an animal is that you're concealed and look like an animal. If you have a cyber-torso, you kinda stand out.

Finally, what happens if you have Shiva arms? a 6-legged lion (bulked up by caster's successes) would be pretty awesome   

[kirk]

The reason I was saying "no" to cyber changing as well was "Turn to Goo."

[Mason]

I will admit that a transformed cyberlimb is pretty awesome, but I find it unlikely. Magic and machine can only meet in a very tenous way, and the spell description does say that you become an average member of the species. HOWEVER, because the spell does not adress this problem specifically, it can be left up to the individual GM and his needs in his game. Just pick which path you prefer, and apply it

[tzizimine]

I also would go with the 'Path: B' idea (i.e. no cyber) if no other reason than not all cyberware/bioware/nanoware/genetech/etc. works equally well with an animal.


For example. Human with Titanium Bone Lacing can still walk. Bird with Titanium Bone Lacing is too heavy to fly. Octopus needs a flexible 'skeleton' of mostly cartiledge to swim so Octopus with Titanium Bone Lacing would sink. Likewise, neurological bioware works on the model of the metahuman brain, so who can say that a Trauma Dampener for a human would work in rhino.


And given the fact that the animal form cannot make use of most of the skills we use (no opposable thumbs), things like gyromount cyberlimbs and smartlinks are worthless, regardless of if they work or not.


Finally, using the Shapeshifter's rules on cyberware as precedent, I would say that implants would just go dormant.


(Oh, and this is not a slight to the developers in any way... I appreciate the hard work they do and understand that fine details like this slip through the cracks in the final weeks before printing... but the idea of 'if the developers didn't say X, it must be Y' is a bad idea... that is why we have FAQs and Erratas after publication. Even the writers can't anticipate everything we players are going to bring up.)