[Bugsplatt]

Asking one of my bound spirits to do a physical task, how long is he willing to do so? If, for example, I'm asking him to dig a hole, how long would he do so? Untill he gets banished or reached the core of the earth? I haven't found an answer to that in the CRB or the Street Grimmoire

[Angado]

I am not immediately aware of any specific rules governing this, so I'll just include what we do at our table...

Firstly, when giving a spirit a physical task the scope of it is important to consider.  For example, are you having an earth spirit dig a shallow grave for a dwarf or are you instructing it to dig a mine shaft into a mountain?   

For the first scenario, with the spirit digging a shallow grave, we look at the capabilities of the spirit to determine how long that might take.  So for a force 6 earth spirit to dig a shallow grave we might allow that within a minute or two (maybe less depending on the circumstances).

For the later, we would rule that as one of those extended services (forgive my terminology, as I don't have my books with me atm) that the spirit could be instructed to take, but forgoes any other services.  In this instances it may take weeks or months depending on the specific instructions provided to the spirit.

For a more firm example, the books indicate that using a spirit to assist with reagent gathering uses a service and that can take up to a base time of 10 days.   You could also command the same spirit to kill a nest of ghouls huddled in a basement in the barrens... that might only take a minute or two.

It may be a bit abstract, but I think that is actually a strength for the players and the game masters.  It allows things to make a logical sort of sense with regard to tasks while still acknowledging the capabilities of the spirits at use.

My two cents.

[Reaver]

Spirits are not dumb. They don't act like mindless automitons. If you asked a spirit to dig a hole, it would probably ask how big and deep you wanted it... Or if it didn't like you because of your spirit index, it may just remove a cubic foot of dirt and say 'task complete!)

Unless the spirit is bound, it disappears at sunup/sundown (whatever comes first).

Remember, A spirits intelligence is tied to its force, so a mage that summons a high force spirit is summoning a being that could be much smarter then he is! - and if that really smart spirit also doesn't like the mage because of past spirit interactions (spirits have a group memory).... well that mage could be in for a world of hurt! A comnand of "save me from my enemies" to a high force spirit that doesn't the mage could lead to the spirit picking the mage up, and glying him a 100 meters into the air... at that point the spirit says "task complete!" - and drops the mage! (For a 50P fall damage test!)

[Hobbes]

In addition to Spirit Index, bound Spirits are quite specifically surly.  Away from Books so I can't cite the page, but one of the Red Boxes in the summoning chapter specifically calls out that bound spirits will push the limits of their orders when possible.  Either by doing as little as possible, or by using semantics as justification to do unintended things.

A normally conjured, but unbound spirit is generally presumed neutral to friendly and as pointed out, can be quite intelligent.  Unless the conjurer has done something to piss off the Spirit(s)  it should exercise some initiative to help out the summoner, like ask "how big should I dig the hole?"

[Senko]

Which is one of the reasons I don't like the binding rules. There are quite a few tasks that take longer than sunrise to sunup (or vice versa) so to have a spirit complete it you need to "bind" it which promptly turns it from a friendly deal (I give you this valuable thing if you do that task for me) to more of a forced deal (I'll give you this but you have to do that, don't feel its good enough too bad I set the terms). I'd really prefer a way to keep a spirit around for several day's service that didn't make it automtically resentful and trying to get out of it. Even if it moves from You offer the spirit vague nebulous item of value but no real world impact in exchange it performs a service to You offer the spirit specific item it wants in exchange for prolonged service. Exact same rules/limits as the binding ones with the exception that instead of a surly spirit you have a co-operative even friendly one but you have to sacrifice lose an item of X value. Doesn't need to specify what item the spirit wants in exchange can just be a vague for X amount of time you need to pay X amount of nuyen to represent your purchasing whatever sacrifice the spirit wants (incense, rare foods, the latest videogame or a formal gown) you to burn/lay at its altar/etc.

[Rosa]

I agree with Senko that 5th editions rules and fluff about binding are somewhat silly, it's almost like the designers decided that the players shouldn't bind spirits and then progressed to make it as punishing for players to do so without downright cutting it. I view binding as akin to a long term contract and it's not like the spirit doesn't get paid, I mean what else are all the required reagents for? Now I'm all for the spirit index punishing you if you abuse your spirits and that spirits dislike long term binding /fettering, I mean who wouldn't object to the mind numbingly boring task of patrolling some Corp facility for a year, but regular binding should be ok in my book.

In regards to how long you can have a bound spirit perform an ongoing task, there was a thread a while back that discussed this in regards to how long you could have a spirit guard your place by expending a single service, some were of the opinion that it would do so indefinitely even though that would totally make the rules for long term binding effectively redundant. My opinion back then and now is that in order to avoid that kind of abuse, an ongoing physical service should cost an additional service once per 12 hours at sunrise and sunset or alternatively once per 24 hours.

NB: a houserule that we have in my game is that binding won't be regarded negatively by spirits for the reasons I stated above but on the other hand if you mistreat your spirits then once you have passed a certain level of negative spirit index they get to try and break free of the bond every time you call them as well as they will actively do their best to try and circumvent your orders.

[Kiirnodel]

In addition to Spirit Index, bound Spirits are quite specifically surly.  Away from Books so I can't cite the page, but one of the Red Boxes in the summoning chapter specifically calls out that bound spirits will push the limits of their orders when possible.  Either by doing as little as possible, or by using semantics as justification to do unintended things.

The sidebar you're talking about is on page 301 of the core Rulebook. And it only says that bound spirits sometimes try to struggle against the mystic bonds. That struggle manifests as a strain on the magician (-1 penalty on actions). It also specifically says that it should only be applied if the magician is particularly abusive or cruel.

A normally conjured, but unbound spirit is generally presumed neutral to friendly and as pointed out, can be quite intelligent.  Unless the conjurer has done something to piss off the Spirit(s)  it should exercise some initiative to help out the summoner, like ask "how big should I dig the hole?"

The book never says that unbound spirits are more likely to be helpful or take extra initiative. The relationship between spirit and conjurer is based on tradition and how the mage treats their spirits overall. Spirits don't like being bound, so they might be more likely to be more frugal. But if the summoner has a good relationship with their spirits, they should still be fine.

Which is one of the reasons I don't like the binding rules. There are quite a few tasks that take longer than sunrise to sunup (or vice versa) so to have a spirit complete it you need to "bind" it which promptly turns it from a friendly deal (I give you this valuable thing if you do that task for me) to more of a forced deal (I'll give you this but you have to do that, don't feel its good enough too bad I set the terms). I'd really prefer a way to keep a spirit around for several day's service that didn't make it automtically resentful and trying to get out of it. Even if it moves from You offer the spirit vague nebulous item of value but no real world impact in exchange it performs a service to You offer the spirit specific item it wants in exchange for prolonged service. Exact same rules/limits as the binding ones with the exception that instead of a surly spirit you have a co-operative even friendly one but you have to sacrifice lose an item of X value. Doesn't need to specify what item the spirit wants in exchange can just be a vague for X amount of time you need to pay X amount of nuyen to represent your purchasing whatever sacrifice the spirit wants (incense, rare foods, the latest videogame or a formal gown) you to burn/lay at its altar/etc.

Senko, what tasks do you think take longer? If you're setting your spirits on prolonged tasks it makes perfect sense to require binding. The whole offerings thing is specifically not written specifically and isn't even required. If you want to play up making extra offerings when you bind a spirit and you're using the Spirit Index rules, spend the extra reagents to keep yourself accruing the bad rep.

[Bugsplatt]

Okay, got my answer. There are no rules, but Spirits will get pissed if I force them to do something which takes a lot of time and I don't want that happening.

Cheers, as always, thank you pals (and gals)

[Reaver]

But seriously, what tasks really take a long time to complete?

The only 2 I can think of is 'teaching' and 'aid ritual' - both of which require a bound spirit anyways...

And giving a spirit a silly/mindane/unreasonable task is a sure fire way to piss it off - just like if your boss gave you the same type of task.

The way I explain Spirits to new players is: "they are the peopke of the astral. They have the same range of emotions and personalities as ither people, and actions that piss off regular people will piss them off too! How often do you hang out with that buddy that ALWAYS gets you into fistfights? How much do you like that boss that always belittles you and gives you crap job tasks? Same thing with spirits."