NEWS

Gillette in an awakened world

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JustADude

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« Reply #45 on: (03:44:25/07-09-12) »
It's a case of one size not fitting all. The rules make sense for everything but frag grenades, really, since the "shredding" effect of the criss-crossing shockwaves really will do much more damage than one, bigger kaboom hitting at the same spot...
In this context, how simultaneous do the explosions have to be?

The whole idea is that before the material has finished "absorbing" one explosion's Impulse (Impulse = Force * Time), it gets another Impulse that increases the overall sheer-stress on the target and imparts a new vectors to the sheer that a single impulse would never be able to create by itself.

Practically speaking, I'd say somewhere within a generously-sized fraction of a second, usually. Easily within the realm of a det-cord setup or modern radio-detonation system, since it's a major tool in the arsenal of a modern commercial demolitionist.
« Last Edit: (03:47:32/07-09-12) by JustADude »
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TheNarrator

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« Reply #46 on: (08:58:04/07-09-12) »
Yeah, I asked because I was wondering about whether it would work with an automatic grenade launcher, since the grenades wouldn't detonate simultaneously. The modern Mk 19 has a cyclic rate of 325-375 rpm, so if the Gonryu is similar than the grenades would hit and detonate less than one-fifth of a second apart. Probably close enough for these purposes.

I hadn't really thought about how the overlapping explosion rules would apply with a grenade launcher before. It makes the Gonryu a lot more brutal than I'd realized. Suppressing Fire with this thing would lay waste to whole areas, and narrow bursts put the Anti-Tank Mortar to shame.

JustADude

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« Reply #47 on: (16:54:49/07-09-12) »
Yeah, I asked because I was wondering about whether it would work with an automatic grenade launcher, since the grenades wouldn't detonate simultaneously. The modern Mk 19 has a cyclic rate of 325-375 rpm, so if the Gonryu is similar than the grenades would hit and detonate less than one-fifth of a second apart. Probably close enough for these purposes.

I hadn't really thought about how the overlapping explosion rules would apply with a grenade launcher before. It makes the Gonryu a lot more brutal than I'd realized. Suppressing Fire with this thing would lay waste to whole areas, and narrow bursts put the Anti-Tank Mortar to shame.

All Shadowrun weapons capable of standard Full Auto firing (i.e. not HV or Minigun), are theoretically capable of putting out 2000+^ RPM.

 Even assuming there's some unintended shenanigans involved in that number, due to the way cyclical rate interacts with IP boosts, the Gonryu would probably double or triple the Mk 19's rate of fire... which is still enough to do a fair imitation of modern air-to-ground cluster munitions.

^5 IPs per CT * 20 CTs per minute * 20 rounds per Suppressive Fire action = 2000 rounds per minute... which, even then, isn't just jamming the trigger and holding it down.
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CanRay

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« Reply #48 on: (17:05:45/07-09-12) »
Well, the MAC-10 can get to half of that cyclic rate with 1970s technology.  And the MG42 did it in 1942 (The ROF was so fast that it sounded more like a buzzsaw than a machine gun, which had troops calling it "Hitler's Zipper"), and that design is still in use as the MG3.

With Smartgun technology, you can probably automatically adjust the cyclic rate by adjusting the gas-operation of the firearm to whatever you like.  I mean, the damned thing does everything else except make you a sandwich for after the firefight.
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JustADude

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« Reply #49 on: (17:11:15/07-09-12) »
Well, the MAC-10 can get to half of that cyclic rate with 1970s technology.  And the MG42 did it in 1942 (The ROF was so fast that it sounded more like a buzzsaw than a machine gun, which had troops calling it "Hitler's Zipper"), and that design is still in use as the MG3.

With Smartgun technology, you can probably automatically adjust the cyclic rate by adjusting the gas-operation of the firearm to whatever you like.  I mean, the damned thing does everything else except make you a sandwich for after the firefight.

Oh, I'm not complaining... well, except a minor grumble that every FA gun seems to have exactly the same RoF... just noting that the Gonryu is theoretically capable of burning through the standard 50-round belt it comes with in about 1.5 seconds.


EDIT: Of course, that makes me wonder about how one would modify a suppression zone for grenades, since we've already established they're not treated like bullets.
« Last Edit: (17:23:40/07-09-12) by JustADude »
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CanRay

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« Reply #50 on: (20:54:53/07-09-12) »
EDIT: Of course, that makes me wonder about how one would modify a suppression zone for grenades, since we've already established they're not treated like bullets.
If you're anywhere near the blast radius of the full-auto grenade launcher's impacts, you need to make a Composure test and find a new set of underwear.
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Cass100199

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« Reply #51 on: (19:47:26/07-10-12) »
I mean, the damned thing does everything else except make you a sandwich for after the firefight.

You didn't buy that feature?
You can't tell me what toys I can play with.

JustADude

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« Reply #52 on: (01:56:37/07-11-12) »
EDIT: Of course, that makes me wonder about how one would modify a suppression zone for grenades, since we've already established they're not treated like bullets.
If you're anywhere near the blast radius of the full-auto grenade launcher's impacts, you need to make a Composure test and find a new set of underwear.

Well, I figured that part was obvious. ;)

I was more thinking about the damage to objects in the area being blasted into a crater. For ease of math, maybe just assume 1 at 0m scatter (for the primary damage source), 1 at 1m, and 2 each at 2m-10m? The falloff would be a bit more complicated, but I'd probably go with a -X/m/m... -X (the normal increment) per meter per meter.

So, for a HE volley it would go 10 + ((9 + 16 + 14 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 + 0) / 2) = DV 51 AP -18 (not -21, since 3 'nades don't reach them) for anything caught in the primary blast zone. At the edge of the blast zone, the DV takes a total penalty of of -1 at 1m, -3 at 2m, -6 at 3m, -10 at 4m, -15 at 5m, -21 at 6m, -28 at 7m, -36 at 8m, - 45 at 9m, and -55 (aka, no effect) at 10m.

EDIT: Whoops... got my High-Explosive and Fragmentation Blast increments mixed up, there. It's really 10 + ((8 + 12 + 8 + 4 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0) / 2) = 26 DV AP -9 (only 8 'nades apply to any given spot) , and -2 at 1m, -6 at 2m, -12 at 3m, -20 at 4m, -30 (no effect) at 5m from the edge.

Frags, with their higher DV and lower increment would be potentially much deadlier, but much more random, since they'd work out to DV 72 AP +52 and zeroing out at the 12m mark. WP works out to DV 49 AP -50%*, DV 25 for 10 turns, zeroing out at the 10m mark.

Using this model, suppressing with Frags will make people dive for cover and cause randomly devastating injuries among armored troops ranging from 'gravely injured' to 'fine red mist' over a 44m diameter area, but not do much against vehicles. Using HE will cause less damage at any one point, but will cause a seriously bad day for just about anything in a 28m diameter. WP grenades will, effectively, create a 38m diameter micro-apocalypse.

*When using OE rules for -50% AP mods, you essentially add -25% to the base for every AP -50% after the first. That means 3 or more WP grenades would totally nullify any armor except fireproofing, making such a strike an inevitable OHK against even heavy tanks. Hence why I'm sticking to AP -50%. The actual result should be -525%.
« Last Edit: (02:57:04/07-11-12) by JustADude »
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