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Prices run wild in Running Wild

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Ajax

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« on: (13:30:42/03-21-12) »
Purchasing pre-trained animals is possible under the rules given in Running Wild, page 35. The chart lists the cost multipliers for a training critters in single tasks... but what if I want to purchase an animal that can do more than one thing? Now, the rules do state that not all critters are available trained, and GMs have the final say on if a character can find a trained specimen, but since I'm looking for a trained, mundane dog... I don't think this will be a problem. But there is a problem, oh yes, you see if I want a trained dog I need to cough up over two million nuyen. That is not a typo.

The rules say "To calculate the trained price, multiply the base cost of the critter by the training level multiplier and then by the Willpower multiplier." So if I have a Dog (100), Willpower 3 (x2) trained as a Guidedog for the Blind (x7), it will cost me 1400... but, unless I've misread the book, the Guidedog won't know how to Sit, Stay, Lay Down, or sleep in its Crate.

Since every trick you pruchase it pre-trained in adjusts it base cost, a dog with just basic obedience lessons quickly exceeds the value of a new sportscar!

Dog (100); Sit (250); Lay Down (625); Crate Training (1,562.5); Bark on Command (3906.25); Shake (9765.63); Recall (24,414.07); Heel (61,035.16); Stay (152,587.90)...

Want it to be trained at Tracking?  2,136,230.60

Am I doing something wrong here, or did the designers of Running Wild really not want player's to have access to trained pets? Two million nuyen for a dog with basic obedience and a single Advanced training is nuts. I could just slap Skillwires, a Killswitch, and a bucket of Skillsofts into Fido for far, far less than the cost of getting him obedience lessons: Even paying detaware prices for the `ware and x2 or x3 the cost for special "canine edition" skillsofts. For the price of a trained Tracker... I can buy a fully armed tactical attack jetfighter.

At these prices, why would any Shadowrunner bother stealing paydata from megacorps or prototype weapons from the military? Just steal a guidedog from a blind person, sell it at 50% of market value, and retire to a permanent Luxury Lifestyle!
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FastJack

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« Reply #1 on: (13:53:20/03-21-12) »
I think you're over-thinking. Pre-trained would mean that they could do all that you would think would be included in the package, including the sit/heel/etc. commands. For instance, taking the Advance level for a seeing-eye dog would include anything in the lower levels, unless it was definitively against what may be in the training for a seeing-eye dog (i.e. Drug-sniffing, Follow through obstacle course, etc.).

SeriousOne338

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« Reply #2 on: (13:54:53/03-21-12) »
Well that's what you get for buying pure breed.
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Mx

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« Reply #3 on: (13:55:09/03-21-12) »
I kinda just assumed(the examples IMO support this) you pick a general training level you want for the pet and then adjust the price accordingly.
So that dog would just cost the 1400 nuyen.

Put even if thats not how your GM rules it, your still doing somethink weird with your math.
All adjustments are for the base cost, the list you used is 4 instinctive 3 basic and 1 advancet level thinks.
so that 4*1,25+3*2+7 = 18 times the base cost, in this case 100 so 1800 times 2 for the willpower = 3600 nuyen, not that much really.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Ajax

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« Reply #4 on: (14:50:21/03-21-12) »
Well that's what you get for buying pure breed.

Nope, I started with a standard 100 Dog. Cloned, sterile, and readily available.

I think you're over-thinking. Pre-trained would mean that they could do all that you would think would be included in the package, including the sit/heel/etc. commands. For instance, taking the Advance level for a seeing-eye dog would include anything in the lower levels, unless it was definitively against what may be in the training for a seeing-eye dog (i.e. Drug-sniffing, Follow through obstacle course, etc.).

I would think that, but it isn't stated to work that way in the book. Each task is a seperate Animal Training extended test if you "do it youself," and must be purchased seperately if you paid to have the animal pre-trained.

(B
)ut even if thats not how your GM rules it, your still doing somethink weird with your math.
All adjustments are for the base cost, the list you used is 4 instinctive 3 basic and 1 advancet level thinks.
so that 4*1,25+3*2+7 = 18 times the base cost, in this case 100 so 1800 times 2 for the willpower = 3600 nuyen, not that much really.

But once Fido has been trained in one task, his cost goes up. From 100 to 250 to 625 (100*1.25*2; 250*1.25*2; Etc.) all the way up to little Timmy's Lassie costing more than an aircraft carrier. Even if we do things the way you propose, you forgot that you mutliply evey task based on the dog's Willpower, not just the whole education. 7000 for a Guidedog? 8000 for a basic police K-9 dog?

  • Sit: (100*1.25*2) = 250
  • Down: (100*1.25*2) = 250
  • Crate: (100*1.25*2) = 250
  • Speak: (100*1.25*2) = 250
  • Shake: (100*2*2) = 400
  • Come: (100*2*2) = 400
  • Heel: (100*2*2) = 400
  • Stay: (100*2*2) = 400
  • Guide Dog: (100*7*2) = 1400
  • Sit: (100*1.25*2) = 250
  • Down: (100*1.25*2) = 250
  • Crate: (100*1.25*2) = 250
  • Speak: (100*1.25*2) = 250
  • Come: (100*2*2) = 400
  • Heel: (100*2*2) = 400
  • Stay: (100*2*2) = 400
  • Attack on Command: (100*5*2) = 1000
  • Defend on Command: (100*5*2) = 1000
  • Dodge: (100*5*2) = 1000
  • Attack to Disable: (100*7*2) = 1400
  • Directed Bite Placement: (100*7*2) = 1400
I know that in Shadowrun's dystopian and technological future, animals are going to be a premium. I know that, for gameplay reasons, you want to steer most RPG players away from "pet class" concepts. But this is Shadowrun, common starting characters can have dozens of semi-independent drones. I just want a ex-cop and his dog.
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FastJack

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« Reply #5 on: (15:49:20/03-21-12) »
Again, I think you're reading WAY too much into this. The Level of training indicates How Much the animal has been trained, not specific tricks he's learned.

Ajax

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« Reply #6 on: (16:01:35/03-21-12) »
I've read and re-read the relevant section of RW a dozen times now, and cannot make heads nor tails of it. The rules are unclear as to whether training is tasked-based (half the examples, the charts on p.38-39) or based on a broader level of training (the other half of the examples). Grrr.
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Mx

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« Reply #7 on: (16:24:02/03-21-12) »
[But once Fido has been trained in one task, his cost goes up.
His price yes, but the base cost never changes
Even if we do things the way you propose, you forgot that you mutliply evey task based on the dog's Willpower
I dont see any reason for this.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Ajax

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« Reply #8 on: (16:30:30/03-21-12) »
Even if we do things the way you propose, you forgot that you mutliply evey task based on the dog's Willpower
I dont see any reason for this.

"To calculate the trained price, multiply the base cost ("B") of the critter by the training level multiplier ("T") and then by the Willpower multiplier (W)." Running Wild, p. 35 (parentheical notes mine). That makes the forumla B*T*W, not B*T as you suggest.

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Sichr

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« Reply #9 on: (17:48:26/03-21-12) »
Well on the same page I can see nice example telling me that Seeing-eye dog = 1400Y...this also tells me that advanced training means 7 times basic cost of the animal, and I suppose that it also means that for the price animal can every command listed on p.37/38 + those my GM sees as approved for this level of training.
Yes, willpower multiplier counts..well...the same example shows Hellhound, fragin dual killing machine with LOS ranged flamethrower for 200000 Y... That is the price of two pursuit cars... not that much IMO

Lethe

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« Reply #10 on: (17:54:48/03-21-12) »
"To calculate the trained price, multiply the base cost ("B") of the critter by the training level multiplier ("T") and then by the Willpower multiplier (W)." Running Wild, p. 35 (parentheical notes mine). That makes the forumla B*T*W, not B*T as you suggest.
You both meant the same. Your formular was B*T*W+B*T*W+..., while Max used (B*T+B*T+...)*W. Distributive Law.

Sichr

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« Reply #11 on: (18:03:37/03-21-12) »
Well there is no "+" in this
Its simply Base Cost * Training Level Multiplier * Willpower Multiplier.
That is all...one simple formula.

Quote from:  Running Wild, p. 35
To calculate the trained price, multiply
the  base  cost  of  the  critter  by  the  training  level
multiplier  and  then  by  the  Willpower  multiplier.

Ajax

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« Reply #12 on: (18:04:26/03-21-12) »
Well on the same page I can see nice example telling me that Seeing-eye dog = 1400Y...this also tells me that advanced training means 7 times basic cost of the animal, and I suppose that it also means that for the price animal can every command listed on p.37/38 + those my GM sees as approved for this level of training.
Yes, willpower multiplier counts..well...the same example shows Hellhound, fragin dual killing machine with LOS ranged flamethrower for 200000 Y... That is the price of two pursuit cars... not that much IMO

The problem is that at no point in the book do they say that an animal learns any task other than those it has been trained for. A 1,400 Seeing-Eye Dog will not "heel" or "sit" on command. The Hellhound, from that same example, will fight when told to... but it isn't Crate Trained.  If we assume that training an animal works by the level of training, then any dog trained as "Guide Dogs for Disabled" is also trainned for "Drug-Sniffing, Search and Rescue, ... Attacking to Disable..." (p.35). Holy drek, forget what I said about mugging blind people, they've got combat-ready service dogs. :o
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Ajax

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« Reply #13 on: (18:05:30/03-21-12) »
Well there is no "+" in this
Its simply Base Cost * Training Level Multiplier * Willpower Multiplier.
That is all...one simple formula.

Quote from:  Running Wild, p. 35
To calculate the trained price, multiply
the  base  cost  of  the  critter  by  the  training  level
multiplier  and  then  by  the  Willpower  multiplier.

There is a "plus" in this, if you want to train the animal in more than one task...
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Sichr

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« Reply #14 on: (18:08:38/03-21-12) »
LOL

For Dog with advanced training you get:
Quote from: Running Wild, p. 38
Instinctive: Sit, Lay Down, Crate Training, Bark on Command
Basic: Shake, Recall, Heel, Stay
Moderate:  Attack  or  Defend  on  Command,  Jump  Through
Hoop,  Follow  Obstacle  Course  (off-leash,  verbal/visual
commands), Dodge
Advanced:  Drug -Sniffing ,  Search  and  Rescue,  Tracking ,
Directed Bite Placement (e.g. bite gun-arm), Guide Dogs for
Disabled, Attacking to Disable, Attack (general or non-identified
metahumans) Without Handler Present

Against instincts training adds you:
Quote from: Running Wild, p. 39
Against Instincts: Combat Training (with loud gunfire), Not
Chasing a Running Target, Not Attacking a Threat

EDIT: Applying the point where you are trying to say that you have to pay for every one of those maneuvers specialy, this I would call attempt to break functional and clear rule. In that case, I think that you are just trolling ;)
« Last Edit: (18:14:51/03-21-12) by Sichr »