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"Sub-optimal"

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UmaroVI

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« Reply #60 on: (12:14:35/12-08-11) »
Alright, I feel like I should take a step back here. Mostly, the "adepts are fine because the GM can pitch you softballs" and "but adepts have HEART" arguments were pissing me off.

First, I should note that (assuming the GM allows nonlimiting Gaesa, which is a topic I'll return to), that is a good adept build and will hold up against a street samurai.

The real questions IMO are:

Do pure adepts hold up against street samurai?

Do pure adepts hold up against augmented adepts?

Do augmented adepts hold up against street samurai?

Now let me try to answer those.

If you don't allow nonlimiting Gaesa or Ways, pure adepts basically just blow chunks, but augmented adepts are about on par with street samurai. The obvious fix is to allow Ways and Gaesa...but the problem there is that this does not solve the problem that augmented adepts are better than adepts. That build, while good, would still be better as an augmented adept. If you allow Ways and nonlimiting Gaesa, you end up generally with augmented adepts being better than adepts who are now on par with street samurai (at pure combat - the adept will be more specialized, still).

I don't think it's a problem that the Bestest at Kung Fu is an adept. That's fine, because said adept is also paying a good chunk of points to be the bestest at kung fu, and the street samurai can still be good at kung fu and also good at another thing or two. I do think it's a problem, though, that you can't make an adept who wouldn't be better off augmenting themselves.

That's why my recommended solution is to limit Gaesa to actually for real limiting things and not bullshit, and to "not being Augmented." That leaves augmented adept as the way to go if you want to be a hyperspecialist at one thing, adept as a bit less of a hyperspecialist (since you can afford more powers, but you can't stack adept powers and ware), and samurai if you want more flexibility/defense. All of them have strengths and weaknesses in this setup and I think that's a good place to shoot for.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #61 on: (12:47:49/12-08-11) »
It seems to me that the flavor of the Adept is supposed to be the guy who trains hard and focuses his magic internally into being as good as he can be at what he does. This "sub-optimal" stuff probably stems from that the people saying it want the Adept to be able to do what he's chosen to become good at as well as a laundry list of other things. To be perfectly honest in my opinion, putting implants--whether cyber or bio in nature--is seriously hampering the Adept and making him truly suck because not only do you lose a point of Magic and hence power points from the maximum, but you also lose a point from your current Magic attribute. There was a time when I considered the idea of using initiation to build  a buffer for implants, but I realized just how much of a waste of karma that would be.

I guess what I'm saying is, instead of looking at the Adept as sucking because he "has to specialize", look at him as being that eternal seeker of perfection of body/mind/spirit--whichever a particular one might be going for--that he is. He may not be able to do everything that street samurai can do, but he's likely managed being better at something than that street samurai.

Side note: How in the bloody hell were people getting 50+ plus dice on Face Adepts??!! (If this isn't a sign of Adepts being just fine--if not a bit over the top--I don't know what is.) Kinda want to see the build for this because I don't really see dice pools that high being feasible.
« Last Edit: (12:59:43/12-08-11) by All4BigGuns »
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Tsuzua

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« Reply #62 on: (13:10:44/12-08-11) »
Side note: How in the bloody hell were people getting 50+ plus dice on Face Adepts??!! (If this isn't a sign of Adepts being just fine--if not a bit over the top--I don't know what is.) Kinda want to see the build for this because I don't really see dice pools that high being feasible.

It's been a while, but a rough breakdown is this:  Charisma 8 Elf + Metagentic Improvement 1 + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) 1 + Social Skill 7 + Improved Ability 3 + Emotoy 6 + Kinesics 3 + Pheromone Receptors 2 + Specialization 2 + Tailored Pheromones 3 + Glamour 3 + First Impression 2.  That's a total of 41 dice.  I'm sure there's more widgets and bonuses I'm missing, but that's the basics. 

Overall, you're getting 6 dice from being an adept (Improved Ability + Kinesics) and 6 dice from ware (Genetic Optimization + Pheromone Receptors + Tailored Pheromones) so it's 50-50.  If you can get a force 10 Increase Charisma spell cast on you, you can get up to 5 more dice from that.

The Big Peat

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« Reply #63 on: (13:21:41/12-08-11) »
All4BigGuns, it doesn't stem from wanting them to be all-round badasses. It stems from comparing a number of builds and finding out that the Augmented character did what the Adept specialised in better, and had added flexibility to boot. And then comparing the Augmented Adept and finding he'd do it even better, it slightly less flexibly. It might appear from reading the books that putting implants in an Adept hampers them. I can assure you that if you do the maths and compare like builds you will find it does no such thing. On the contrary, it makes for the most powerful builds, as you get to stack the bonuses of both. You probably won't be very versatile, but you will be rocking every bonus possible. The 50 dice (I think it was only 49 actually) Adept is an example of this, as they will be using bioware.

If, as Umaro says, adepts were specialists and Street Sams were generalists, everyone would be happy. But they're not.

I'm still tinkering with numbers for an augmented build to compare with JustADude's quick ninja and I think, in fairness, that will come ahead of it sort of and that's fair and how it should be... although what he's done with gaesa is mildly abusive (which given that its an optional rule may not fly at a lot of tables)... even then, the Augment will hit more often (in unarmed barely and at throwing by lots) and be more stealthy (quite considerably), be a better athlete, a bit sturdier... its the 'doing insane amounts of damage with bare hands/knives' that you can't really replicate with an augment. So, he'd do better in the specialisation of 'hurt people', worse in the generalities - and that works for me. But this is using two sets of optional rules, one in a manner most GMs would balk at, and using one of the few things Adepts do have genuine options on (i.e. unarmed combat). Plus this is without cyberware, for that truly stealthy feeling (cyberware would probably level things up on damage).

So... we have one case where it works (just about), but I've seen plenty where it doesn't.

Oh. JustADude's version will have an extra initative pass. Which is a fair advantage. I have to say, sticking gaesa and a Way onto Increased Reflexes makes it a serious plus for the Adept vs the Augment.

Oh, and Tsuzua - You're missing out that its a Dryad using glamour at least. I forget the rest. Might go look it up... seem to recall Home Turf is used as well.

edit: The Adept can add on dice from a mentor spirit and therefore this is another field where, as is right, the specialised adept will beat out the augment.

edit edit: Found it, halfway down this page... http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4610.30 - I can't find the minor biosculpting bit in the rulebooks, but if its right, we're back to augment beating adept. For a lot less. If it isn't, you get one more dice for the Adept, and I'm fairly sure it will cost more.
« Last Edit: (13:56:53/12-08-11) by The Big Peat »

Katrex

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« Reply #64 on: (13:34:20/12-08-11) »
Adepts can initiate and thus have a better late game potential, there is only so far you can take a cybered character. An  elf cybered character can get 7 ranks in a skill 12 agility and +1 for recorded reflexes.
an adept (with a little bioware granted)  can get 12 agility 7 in a skill +3 for improved ability not to mention centering.
So technically they have a higher cap.

Then consider a social adept, much better than any standard face.

A melee adept with 10 ranks in critical strike, and so forth.

Adepts are weaker starting out, but if you have a game with decent karma progression, say a 50 week campaign with 5-10 karma a session... well your adept will be better in his chosen field. Once again though its at the cost of a not spending that karma on other things. Adepts are specialised and they will become the best at that speciality if you invest.

FastJack

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« Reply #65 on: (13:50:53/12-08-11) »
Guess what, kiddies?

We've reached the circular logic stage of this thread!

Two sides are arguing points and neither side is giving ground. Mostly because it all depends on HOW YOU WANT TO PLAY THE GAME™. Which changes from person to person. Now, I'm going to leave this thread open to continue the discussion, but if we're doing nothing but discussing opinion on why individuals like or don't like adepts (regardless of whether or not you can back it up with rules), then I'm thinking that not much else can be gained from this thread and I'll lock it down and shelve it.

Mäx

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« Reply #66 on: (14:31:34/12-08-11) »
Side note: How in the bloody hell were people getting 50+ plus dice on Face Adepts??!! (If this isn't a sign of Adepts being just fine--if not a bit over the top--I don't know what is.) Kinda want to see the build for this because I don't really see dice pools that high being feasible.
Here you go
[spoiler]Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)

3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51[/spoiler]

But do note that only 6 of those dice come from being an adept.

Edit: Also your correct about it not being feasible, in the sense that you won't ever need that many dice, so your better of spending points for other thinks.
But knowing the full build, makes it easier to make decicions on what to get and what not to get 8)
« Last Edit: (16:15:20/12-08-11) by Mäx »
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JustADude

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« Reply #67 on: (14:31:53/12-08-11) »
That's why my recommended solution is to limit Gaesa to actually for real limiting things and not bullshit, and to "not being Augmented."

Not to keep the circle going, or anything, but I would just like to know how the emphasized part of the quote ISN'T a "non-limiting Geas" for someone who never intended to take cyberware to begin with?
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Mäx

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« Reply #68 on: (14:44:40/12-08-11) »
Not to keep the circle going, or anything, but I would just like to know how the emphasized part of the quote ISN'T a "non-limiting Geas" for someone who never intended to take cyberware to begin with?
It is, but as not getting ware automatically makes you weaker then you could be, it's an exception he would allow.
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JustADude

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« Reply #69 on: (14:47:16/12-08-11) »
Not to keep the circle going, or anything, but I would just like to know how the emphasized part of the quote ISN'T a "non-limiting Geas" for someone who never intended to take cyberware to begin with?
It is, but as not getting ware automatically makes you weaker then you could be, it's an exception he would allow.

Ah, so my bullshit was just the wrong flavor of bullshit, then? ;)

And yes, that disgusting mental image was intended as a form of humor.
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UmaroVI

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« Reply #70 on: (15:52:01/12-08-11) »
Yes, those are meant to be exclusive. You can either have an actual limiting gaesa, or, as the one exception to that rule, the special "unaugmented" gaesa.

Glyph

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« Reply #71 on: (22:05:18/12-08-11) »
Pure adepts are not optimal, although with Ways, geasa, and the optional rule that lets you buy power points at initiation, they can be pretty decent.  Even without the above, they are still suited for the specialized roles they were intended for.  But when you try to emulate a street samurai with one, you will wind up with a character that is overall weaker than an augmented character would be. 

Adepts are different than street samurai.  Some abilities are very inexpensive for them (powers such as critical strike or enhanced perception), while others are very expensive for them (initiative or Attribute increases).  This is one of the things that makes augmented adepts so appealing.  You can get some bioware for the things that are expensive to increase with your adept powers, and then buy the cheap, good stuff with your adept powers.

The other main thing that makes augmentations appealing for an adept is that even for the good powers, augmentations stack with them.  You can get kinesics and improved ability for your social skills, then add tailored pheromones and empathy software to that.  You can get bone density: 4 and then add critical strike to it.

So when you combine those two things, you can see why, even though adepts are not bad by any means, you can almost always do better by augmenting them.  Is this bad?  I guess it depends on the intent.  If the game designers just wanted to differentiate adepts from street samurai, then this is an unintended consequence.  If they wanted even adepts to feel tempted by the cheap, easy boost of augmentation, then they succeeded.

It can be frustrating to some people, because they prefer "pure" adepts, and those are not as powerful.  It is like playing an Oni - you are sacrificing some optimization for the character concept.  And while I by no means advocate the Stormwind fallacy, I don't think every character has to be completely optimized every time.

JustADude

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« Reply #72 on: (22:25:04/12-08-11) »
And while I by no means advocate the Stormwind fallacy, I don't think every character has to be completely optimized every time.

What is this Stormwind Fallacy you speak of?

EDIT: Nevermind, I forgot about Google for a minute there... very interesting point, however one feels compelled to point out that a Fallacy is something that is incorrect and fails to hold up to logic, which is rather the opposite of what Stormwind intended.
« Last Edit: (22:31:49/12-08-11) by JustADude »
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RelentlessImp

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« Reply #73 on: (22:47:19/12-08-11) »
And while I by no means advocate the Stormwind fallacy, I don't think every character has to be completely optimized every time.

What is this Stormwind Fallacy you speak of?

EDIT: Nevermind, I forgot about Google for a minute there... very interesting point, however one feels compelled to point out that a Fallacy is something that is incorrect and fails to hold up to logic, which is rather the opposite of what Stormwind intended.

'Fallacy' is the correct term. The 'something that is incorrect and fails to hold up to logic' is the argument that optimization and roleplaying are mutually exclusive.
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JustADude

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« Reply #74 on: (23:02:00/12-08-11) »
'Fallacy' is the correct term. The 'something that is incorrect and fails to hold up to logic' is the argument that optimization and roleplaying are mutually exclusive.

Ah, my bad. I'm used to Fallacies, Paradoxes, etc being named for the person/thing that inspired them, not a counter-example.

You know, like the Monty Hall Paradox, or the Ad Populum or Straw Man Fallacies.
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"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
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