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"Sub-optimal"

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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #30 on: (18:09:49/12-07-11) »
Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier. In fact I had to tone the adept down to keep from getting too ridiculous. (11P DV with -3 AP just ain't right, so I dropped it down to 9P DV).
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

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Tsuzua

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« Reply #31 on: (19:11:29/12-07-11) »
Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier. In fact I had to tone the adept down to keep from getting too ridiculous. (11P DV with -3 AP just ain't right, so I dropped it down to 9P DV).

Out of curiousity, can we see the sheets?  I have some guesses of what the characters look like, but I'll like to see.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #32 on: (19:23:24/12-07-11) »
Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier. In fact I had to tone the adept down to keep from getting too ridiculous. (11P DV with -3 AP just ain't right, so I dropped it down to 9P DV).

I guarantee you, this is because the augmented adept is taking silly things instead of effective things. Post the sheets.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #33 on: (19:27:48/12-07-11) »
Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier. In fact I had to tone the adept down to keep from getting too ridiculous. (11P DV with -3 AP just ain't right, so I dropped it down to 9P DV).

I guarantee you, this is because the augmented adept is taking silly things instead of effective things. Post the sheets.

You misunderstand, the augmented wasn't an adept. Pure cyber and/or bio implants. I would never, ever ever put implants in an adept.

Augmented Troll.

[spoiler]
== Info ==
Street Name: Truck
Name: Maxwell Schmidt
Movement: 15/35, Swim: 7
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Troll Male Age 28
Height 8'6" Weight 600 lbs
Composure: 4
Judge Intentions: 4
Lift/Carry: 20 (165 kg/110 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 2900

== Attributes ==
BOD: 9
AGI: 4 (6)
REA: 3 (5)
STR: 9 (11)
CHA: 1
INT: 3
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 4

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   1.0
Initiative:                6 (8)
IP:                        1 (3)
Matrix Initiative:         8
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     13
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 2
Animal Training            : 0                      Pool: 2
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 5
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Automatics                 : 4 [Submachine Guns]    Pool: 12 (14)
Blades                     : 4 [Axes]               Pool: 10 (12)
Climbing                   : 1                      Pool: 12
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 5
Computer                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 1
Data Search                : 0                      Pool: 1
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 8
Dodge                      : 4                      Pool: 9
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 5
First Aid                  : 0                      Pool: 1
Flight                     : 1                      Pool: 12
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 5
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 5
Gymnastics                 : 1                      Pool: 7
Hacking                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 7
Infiltration               : 4                      Pool: 10
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 5
Longarms                   : 0                      Pool: 7
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 2
Palming                    : 0                      Pool: 5
Parachuting                : 0                      Pool: 8
Perception                 : 4                      Pool: 7
Pilot Ground Craft         : 1 [Wheeled]            Pool: 6 (8)
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 4
Pistols                    : 0                      Pool: 7
Riding                     : 0                      Pool: 4
Running                    : 1                      Pool: 12
Shadowing                  : 0                      Pool: 2
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Swimming                   : 1                      Pool: 12
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 5
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Unarmed Combat             : 6 [Martial Arts]       Pool: 12 (14)

== Knowledge Skills ==
Alcohol                    : 3                      Pool: 6
English                    : N                      Pool: 0
Music                      : 3                      Pool: 6
Or'zet                     : 5                      Pool: 8
Sports                     : 3 [Urban Brawl]        Pool: 6 (8)

== Contacts ==
Fence (3, 5)
Fixer (3, 4)

== Qualities ==
Hawk Eye
Incompetent (Demolitions)
SINner (Criminal) (UCAS)
Thermographic Vision
Uncouth

== Lifestyles ==
Middle  2 months

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Bone Density Augmentation Rating 4
Dermal Plating Rating 2
Muscle Augmentation Rating 2
Muscle Toner Rating 2
Wired Reflexes Rating 2

== Armor ==
Armor Jacket              12/8
   +Delta-Amyloid
   +Gel Packs
   +Nonconductivity 6
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit10/4
   +Delta-Amyloid
   +Gel Packs
   +Nonconductivity 6

== Weapons ==
Combat Axe
   +Custom Look Rating 2
   DV: 10P   AP: -1   RC: 2
FN P93 Praetor w/ Electronic Firing
   +Stock
   +Underbarrel Weight
   +Custom Look Rating 2
   +Electronic Firing
   +Flashlight, Standard
   +Gas Vent 3
   +Trigger Removal
   DV: 5P   AP: -   RC: 9
Unarmed Attack
   DV: 9P   AP: -   RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Custom Commlink (5, 5, 5, 2)
   +Custom Commlink OS [Firewall 5, System 5]
   +FTL Matrixware Net Wizard [Analyze 3, Browse 3, Command 1, Edit 2, Purge 3]

== Gear ==
Contact Lenses Rating 3
   +Image Link
   +Smartlink
DocWagon Contract: Basic
Earbuds Rating 3
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
Goggles Rating 3
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Vision Magnification
   +Low Light
Medkit Rating 6 x2
Spare Clip (Submachine Gun) x10
   +Ammo: Regular Ammo (Submachine Guns)

== Vehicles ==
Harley-Davidson Scorpion (Chopper)
   +Metahuman Adjustment, Troll
   +Pimped Ride Level 2
   +Vehicle Sensor
[/spoiler]

Now the Adept.

[spoiler]
== Info ==
Street Name: Mack
Name: Victor Harmon
Movement: 15/35, Swim: 7
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Troll Male Age 27
Height 8'6" Weight 600 lbs
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 5
Lift/Carry: 16 (135 kg/90 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 3400

== Attributes ==
BOD: 7
AGI: 4 (5)
REA: 3 (4)
STR: 9
CHA: 2
INT: 3
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 3
MAG: 6

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                6 (7)
IP:                        1 (2)
Astral Initiative:         6
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         6
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     12
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 2
Animal Training            : 0                      Pool: 2
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Automatics                 : 0                      Pool: 4
Blades                     : 0                      Pool: 4
Climbing                   : 1                      Pool: 10
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 4
Computer                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Con                        : 0                      Pool: 1
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 1
Data Search                : 0                      Pool: 1
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 1
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 6
Dodge                      : 4                      Pool: 8
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 4
Etiquette                  : 1                      Pool: 3
First Aid                  : 0                      Pool: 1
Flight                     : 1                      Pool: 10
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Gymnastics                 : 1                      Pool: 6
Hacking                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 4
Infiltration               : 4                      Pool: 9
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 1
Intimidation               : 0                      Pool: 1
Leadership                 : 0                      Pool: 1
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 4
Longarms                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 2
Negotiation                : 1                      Pool: 3
Palming                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Parachuting                : 0                      Pool: 6
Perception                 : 4                      Pool: 7
Pilot Ground Craft         : 1 [Wheeled]            Pool: 5 (7)
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 3
Pistols                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Riding                     : 0                      Pool: 3
Running                    : 1                      Pool: 10
Shadowing                  : 0                      Pool: 2
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Swimming                   : 1                      Pool: 10
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 4
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Unarmed Combat             : 5 [Martial Arts]       Pool: 12 (14)

== Knowledge Skills ==
Bars and Clubs             : 3                      Pool: 6
Magical Threats            : 3                      Pool: 6

== Contacts ==
Fixer (3, 2)

== Qualities ==
Adept
Poor Self Control (Vindictive)
Sensitive System
SINner (Criminal) (UCAS)
The Warrior's Way
Thermographic Vision

== Powers ==
Counterstrike Rating: 2
Critical Strike Rating: 4
Improved Ability (Combat) (Unarmed Combat) Rating: 2
Improved Physical Attribute (AGI) Rating: 1
Improved Reflexes 1
Killing Hands
Nerve Strike
Penetrating Strike Rating: 3

== Lifestyles ==
Downtown Efficiency  3 months
   Comforts:      Low
   Entertainment: Middle
   Necessities:   Low
   Neighborhood:  Middle
   Security:      Middle
   Qualities:     Easy-Going Landlord [1LP]
                  AI in Residence [-3LP]
                  Network Bottleneck [-1LP]

== Armor ==
Armor Jacket              8/6
   +Nonconductivity 6
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
   +Nonconductivity 6
SecureTech PPP Armor (Ensemble)2/6

== Weapons ==
Unarmed Attack
   DV: 9P   AP: -   RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Novatech Airware (3, 3, 3, 3)
   +Iris Orb
   +AR Gloves
   +FTL Matrixware Net Wizard [Analyze 3, Browse 3, Command 1, Edit 2, Purge 3]

== Gear ==
Contact Lenses Rating 3
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Image Link
   +Flare Compensation
DocWagon Contract: Basic
Earbuds Rating 3
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
Flashlight x2
Medkit Rating 6
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: (19:32:28/12-07-11) by All4BigGuns »
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

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UmaroVI

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« Reply #34 on: (19:45:10/12-07-11) »
That's more because the augmented character is built more poorly than the adept. It's easy enough to make a street samurai who's better than that at melee combat, you just need to use good things instead of bad things, like cyberspurs rather than bone lacing.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #35 on: (19:48:10/12-07-11) »
In the interest of actually providing examples, check my sig.

The Ronin archetype is about as good in a fistfight as that adept, which is quite sad because the Ronin is a ranged-combat character who picked up Unarmed 4 and a shock glove as a tertiary thing.

The Bad Enough Trog is simply a much better melee combatant.

If you don't want to be super unsubtle (eg, by being robotroll) you can easily enough make an augmented character who's better at melee combat than that adept and not actually worse at anything else.

JustADude

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« Reply #36 on: (20:37:38/12-07-11) »
You mean, a physad holding an ordinary weapon? Foci get their ratings reduced by background count, and a -6 essence cyberzombie would drop a force 6 weapon focus down to 0.

You mean a -6 Essence Cyberzombie would drop it by 4 points in a 6 meter radius. All CZ's have a BC of 4.
Thanks, Mason.

Yep, so the PhysAd still has a Rating 2 Weapon Focus, plus whatever powers they still have left, meaning they can still hurt the thing MUCH worse than any other weapon (Immunity to Normal Weapons) like grenades, missiles, rockets, bullets, etc. So, when fighting the Cyberzombie, which would you rather have, a PhysAd or a Thor shot? Because he's definitely walking away from the one that ain't magical.

Actually, Thors have a zone in the center, 200m IIRC, where it's "you are vaporized, no dodging, no resistance, no second chances". The DV 30 starts at the edge of that.
« Last Edit: (00:07:43/12-08-11) by JustADude »
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Exodus

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« Reply #37 on: (22:33:42/12-07-11) »
The only time I had a campaign where the Adept was actually awesome is when I ran a game where the BP for gear was capped at 5 BP. They were street-level gangers working there way up from the lowest gutter. Adepts and gang Lieutenants with wire were the only ones in the district who had more than 2 IPs without drugs. Near the end of the campaign the Adept started to lag behind and finally ended up falling off a speeding train...
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Slazarith

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« Reply #38 on: (01:10:18/12-08-11) »
After the initial reassurance that adepts are fine as long as one doesn't care about throwing absolute max dice, all I see is examples of why they suck harder than a joygirl...

Mäx

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« Reply #39 on: (02:34:57/12-08-11) »
Honestly, I don't see it. I just made a troll adept unarmed fighter the other day, and an augmented troll unarmed fighter. The augmented one was a hair 'tankier' but all in all, the pure adept version came out much scarier.
Why did you waste points on making the augmented one a ranged combatant too, if the point was making 2 melee fighters and compare them to each other?
Get rid of that Bone Density augmentation, use resricted gear to up the ratings of both muscle implants to 4 and also pick up a supratyroid gland,.
Doing that up his strength to 14, maxes his agility to 7 with a natural agility of 2 so you can move 2 points from agi to rea resulting in a reaction of 8 and ups the body to 10.
Also get rid of the unarmed skill and up the blades skill to 6 instead, if you want to be able to still go into a fight when ever with out carrying around a big ass axe/sword, just get a cyber spur.

After the initial reassurance that adepts are fine as long as one doesn't care about throwing absolute max dice
WHUT
Adepts are the ones who get the max dice pools, not the other way around.
« Last Edit: (03:04:44/12-08-11) by Mäx »
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Xzylvador

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« Reply #40 on: (05:45:35/12-08-11) »
After the initial reassurance that adepts are fine as long as one doesn't care about throwing absolute max dice
WHUT
Adepts are the ones who get the max dice pools, not the other way around.

But at what cost? Being completely useless at pretty much everything else?
If getting (near) max dice pools is your aim, get an augmented char, it'll still have points left to be good at something else.
If being surprisingly good is your aim though, adepts have their merits.
A security team trying to arrest cybertroll will show up with 10 heavily armed, trigger happy guards and air support. When they take him down, they'll lock him up in a cell without windows or bars and 5ft thick armored concrete walls.
The same security team wanting to arrest that unaugmented feeble-looking human might send in 3 guys with stun batons, and they won't last a second. If he doesn't resist and allows himself to be captured, they'll probably throw him in the same cell they use to lock up drunks overnight; and that feeble-looking unaugmented human can break down those bars as is they were made of... something not so strong.

Mirikon

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« Reply #41 on: (07:37:31/12-08-11) »
+1 Xyz. This is what some people don't get. Dice pools aren't everything. Yes, an uber-augmented character may throw more dice than an adept. But adepts don't set off MAD scanners, don't attract as much attention from cops, and their abilities are always on, and can't be hacked. Unless you're assensing them, you know the only way you can tell a physical adept from Joe Wageslave? When the physical adept goes Chuck Norris on you.
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JustADude

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« Reply #42 on: (07:50:13/12-08-11) »
+1 Xyz. This is what some people don't get. Dice pools aren't everything. Yes, an uber-augmented character may throw more dice than an adept. But adepts don't set off MAD scanners, don't attract as much attention from cops, and their abilities are always on, and can't be hacked. Unless you're assensing them, you know the only way you can tell a physical adept from Joe Wageslave? When the physical adept goes Chuck Norris on you.

Agreed.

A quick jaunt with Chummer let me whip up a pretty damn good infiltrator that has 4 IPs and slings 16 dice on Unarmed to deal 11P AP-Half Impact (thanks to Elemental Strike ;) ), throws 11 dice for Throwing Knives @ 8P AP-0, has Traceless Walk, the Stealth and Athletics groups at 4 each, and plenty of BP left for Martial Arts, more skills, and gear.

Not being a total munchkin is different than being pathetic.

P.S. Thanks to Quick Draw, he doesn't even have to spend an action readying those knives.
« Last Edit: (07:53:34/12-08-11) by JustADude »
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Xzylvador

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« Reply #43 on: (08:04:24/12-08-11) »
^ Please, post build!

Just wanted to point out that sub-optimal all depends on what you find optimal.
Mathematically, my money's on cybertroll.
But personally, my combat builds usually are full of bioware -which is also numerically inferior to cyberware- or they're adepts (possibly but not necessarily with a point of bioware installed), but never chromed street sams.
Imo, even in 2072, a person with 4 armored chromed limbs will put security on alert. Not saying they'll be immediately arrested, but security will keep a closer eye on someone who looks like Robocop than on someone who looks like John Doe; and all that attention is often really unwelcome when on the job.
Unless playing high-aggression shadowrun jobs, bioware-augmentation or adepts are simply more 'optimal' when it comes to anything but fighting.
« Last Edit: (08:17:34/12-08-11) by Xzylvador »

JustADude

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« Reply #44 on: (09:30:26/12-08-11) »
^ Please, post build!

Here ya go; and there's 20 BP and 4,500¥ left to play around with on this... Might not actually be "plenty", but that's still enough to slap in some Martial Arts and armor. Can get 24 BP to play with if you save the Specializations for buying with Karma.

A bit low on Edge, perhaps, but I never tend to use it much, honestly.

Also, the character is built on the assumption that Hardliner Gloves are compatible with Adept Powers. If you want to go the other route, just subtract 1DV from the total damage for Unarmed, since Elemental Strike requires Killing Hands to begin with.

Also, since a dose of 15¥ Rating 6 Adhesive Solvent can act as a very nasty toxin*, and you can deliver a dose of an injection toxin via a bladed weapon, it's definitely worth picking up as well.

[spoiler]
Metatype: Ork (20BP)

ATTRIBUTES
(255BP)
BOD: 4          AGI: 5
REA: 5 ( 8 )   STR: 7
CHA: 2          INT: 3
LOG: 2          WIL: 3
EDG: 2          MAG: 6

QUALITIES
(+20BP, net)
Adept
The Warrior's Way
Any 35BP of Negative

SKILLS
(124 BP)
Athletics Group        4
Stealth Group          4
Thrown Weapons   4 (Spec. Throwing Knives)
Unarmed Combat  6 (Spec. Martial Arts)

ADEPT POWERS
(Powers marked with * are discounted by Warrior's Way)
(All under Geas, pick whatever kind you want)

*Critical Strike 6 (.75 PP)
Elemental Strike (Ice) (.38 PP)
*Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) 3 (.75 PP)
*Improved Reflexes 3 (2 PP)
Killing Hands (.38 PP)
Mystic Armor 1 (.38 PP)
Power Throw 3 (.56 PP)
Traceless Walk (.75 PP)

GEAR
Hardliner Gloves
Throwing Knife x20
[/spoiler]

*See Arsenal P81 "Ingested or Injected Compounds" sidebar. Exact stats are as follows:
Vector: Ingestion, Inhalation, Injection
Speed: Immediate
Penetration: -6
Power: 6
Effect: Physical Damage, Nausea
« Last Edit: (09:38:47/12-08-11) by JustADude »
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