NEWS

BEST PLAYER TWIST EVER

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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #30 on: (10:42:40/09-17-10) »
As in "was there in ancient days and mostly fictitious?"

Sorry, it was too hard to resist.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Wayfinder

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« Reply #31 on: (18:24:36/09-17-10) »
As in "was there in ancient days and mostly fictitious?"

Sorry, it was too hard to resist.

Did you just say that Critias's e-penis was too hard to resist?

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #32 on: (12:51:56/09-18-10) »
Yes, it was too hard to resist poking...at...

DAMMIT!
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

System

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« Reply #33 on: (13:52:32/09-19-10) »
While I think Cat was a little bit too vicious with his "post birth" version of the character, the player chose the problems associated with having a child.  Assuming that her character would be able to be a Shadowrunner at 6-9 months pregnant is absurd.  A player thinking ahead about consequences would have just created an interim character.  It's not only foolish from a physical standpoint, but also from a psychological standpoint.  Shadowrunning isn't exactly safe or gentle.  It's an ongoing recipe for miscarriage. Only the most aloof and disinterested of mothers would continue any kind of "active" shadowrunning (and it sounds like she did since she was worried about buying new armor and reductions to physical stats).  Even seemingly "harmless" activities like decking/hacking could endanger a fetus based on the amount of neurological shock the mother could incur.  That character should have temporarily retired the second she found out she was pregnant unless the character was some kind of mentally disturbed individual.  In fact, as a GM I would have explained that before I even okayed the idea.  Fast forwarding a year to accommodate for pregnancy and then birth recovery just based on the choices made by a single player seems a bit unfair to everyone else unless you're playing in a campaign where time doesn't actually pass.

And if, fully understanding the impending consequences ahead of time she chose to go ahead, and assuming the player and GM agree that a female character having a child isn't an absurdly bad idea for a violent role playing game...


Don't punish the final character.  If the player is willing to sit though the gestation period, they shouldn't be unduly punished.  A woman who maintains an active lifestyle while pregnant and tries hard shouldn't have to try too hard to get their old physical capabilities back.  If you look at contemporary female athletes (and celebrities with good personal trainers) who have kids, they bounce back quickly.  Just because a lot of women dive into buckets of ice cream and plump up doesn't mean they all do.  Active moms don't lose too much of their bodies.  Maybe a short "recovery period" where their stats are reduced, but forcing the character to spend Karma to get back to normal seems punitive.  Realistically, the character should probably stay retired through that period too, but maybe the player wants to get the character back in action.  Shadowrunners shouldn't considered "typical".  Giving an active runner (ie non-sedentary hacker, rigger etc) the benefit of the doubt seems fair.  They are supposed to be above average after all.

Giving the character all sorts of arbitrary flaws like "Post Partum Depression" definitely isn't fair.  We're talking about a mental disorder suffered by a small fraction of women.  Again, shadorunners should be considered above average.  The consequences should be fairly significant.  After all, having kids is a huge change.  Anybody who has gamed into their thirties knows how many players have been "lost" from the group or severely limited once they had a kid.  For a shadowrunner, caring for a kid may well be the death blow to their career.  What would have been fair to the player was suggesting that the character give the child up for adoption, or find a foster parent for it.  It's a good way to explore the character's contacts, or even a way to bring their family or old friends into it.  Might make an interesting side plot of sorts if you're really into roleplaying it.  If they choose to keep the child, new flaws like "Dependent" are obviously appropriate.  Lifestyle adjustments are obviously appropriate too.

The very fact that the player decided to retire the character after enduring the hardships of playing a pregnant character shows that you probably handled it too heavy-handed.  While it's realistic to say that a Shadowmother would probably retire, and that's why I probably wouldn't allow it in my game unless the player absolutely insisted, it isn't very much fun.  However, don't worry about Critias.  He's not very pleasant a lot of the time.

Critias

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« Reply #34 on: (15:25:48/09-19-10) »
However, don't worry about Critias.  He's not very pleasant a lot of the time.
Love you, too?  I've got no idea where that sort of hostility's coming from, but whatever floats your boat.
« Last Edit: (00:28:39/09-20-10) by Critias »

Irian

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« Reply #35 on: (16:29:21/09-19-10) »
GMTool - PreAlpha released (also on SourceForge)
Random Ramblings about Shadowrun (german only)

Angelone

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« Reply #36 on: (17:04:41/09-19-10) »
I'm with Critias on this it was too harsh. Cat's idea was interesting, but harsh and extreme.

PS- You don't want to make Critias angry, you won't like him when he's angry.
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TranKirsaKali

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« Reply #37 on: (00:58:06/09-20-10) »
Sounds like some unnecessary bookkeeping in an effort to provide realism (or what a bunch of guys think is realism) at the expense of a player's fun.  

I'd just tack on a lifestyle increase, offer them an alternate character for the last trimester or so, and then ask 'em how they wanted to handle the game afterwards.  With magic and technology as capable as they are in Shadowrun, it doesn't need to be that big a deal.
I don't agree (don't completely disagree, though).  The player wanted a guilt and consequence free "life intrusion" in the game.  Children dramatically alter a person's life, be it a man or a woman, or even a couple.  Those things are serious, and blowing them off would feel like a cheap cop-out to me.

They could have just downtimed the last few months and just glossed over that time for all characters there.  That would have included the player's character a bit more, but still had the dramatic penalties for having a child.  And even with the advanced medical technology of the late 21st century, the mother is still SINless and would still need to aquire everything on the sly from the black market.  The price increase would accurately represent that.

However, taking it to the level that several people seem to have seems a bit harsh.  It seems to me like they were intentionally punishing the people for wanting to add this in.  In our world today women keep working and moving and going even when pregnant. We do not disappear for 10 months to a year and just hide.  Not everyone gets morning sickness ect.  Some  changes are going to happen.  But I think people went to extremes from what I read.  Not that I would personally ever let my runner get pregnant till she was ready to retire. 

Julius Q Enderby

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« Reply #38 on: (01:04:19/09-20-10) »
Well, call me Switzerland. I like that Cat shared the derail situation and found his reaction a humorous read. My initial assessment was also very similar to Critias. I couldn't help but feel sorry for the poor player. However, Cat did point out that there was first a context of the players thumbing their noses at him.

Back in the day, I had runners decide to shack up also. Wedding and a baby on the way. But it was different in that it was not a derail so much as a rerail for a little while. No one's nose was being thumbed. The wedding and the pregnancy became the runs. It was great! They earned more than 2 Karma for that. They earned enemies by then so little Runner Jr Foetus was certainly not safe for those 9 months. (12 months? She was an elf; I can't remember if we decided the term was longer - can't recall if previous editions commented on gestation period. I only remember that SR1 clearly made sure that females had two mammae, whatever the metatype.  ??? )

I didn't touch lifestyle. I wasn't that savvy plus it was a good group; they deliberately sank nuyen into the affair. Not just the couple either, the rest of the team was fully supportive, committed to the success of the relationship and the safe coming to term of the baby, getting generous gifts and donating superb skills. The team had some monetary success by then so taking a hit on income for a while was not even really discussed. Sure there was some fast-forwarding involved but it made a nice change of pace and it still had action and other social challenges where there was clearly opposition but where blamyourdead solutions were out of the question. You don't do that to your inlaws. Even if racism and other biggotry is involved. Even if they're mob. (Especially if they're mob?).

While the parents might have wanted to keep a low profile for the rest of their lives, that wasn't going to be an option. She was an elf mob princess and he was Voodoo magician. The feotus started showing signs of "special" well before the birthday and not every power in the 'verse was content to let that slide.

That was before we had kids. Now that we know better, I would pretty well run that the same way. Good times. But no one was thumbing their nose at me. That might have made a difference.

TranKirsaKali

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« Reply #39 on: (01:05:51/09-20-10) »
Well, yeah.  Of course you disagree, you've already shared how you handled it and that made your idea pretty clear.  I tried to be pretty brief and explain why I felt the way I did, but since that apparently didn't make my point clearly enough, that's fine;  I'll go a little more long-winded, too.

snip

Those of you high-fiving him and clapping him on the back, here in this thread...ask yourselves, really, how did driving this character away, and making a PC miserable, make the game better?

I just have to say I really liked this post.  I thought it was very well thought out.  And yes it takes a certain kind of woman to RP.  I would hate for any to be driven away because of harshness.

Critias

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« Reply #40 on: (01:11:17/09-20-10) »
They earned enemies by then so little Runner Jr Foetus was certainly not safe for those 9 months. (12 months? She was an elf; I can't remember if we decided the term was longer - can't recall if previous editions commented on gestation period. I only remember that SR1 clearly made sure that females had two mammae, whatever the metatype.  ??? )
For the record (not to derail or anything), SR1 sets the suckling time at 25 months, but has no mention of gestation.  SR2 sets gestation at 360 days and suckling time at "over 25 months" (so somewhere between 2050 and 2nd Edition, elf babies decided they liked boobies a little more?).  SR4 just confirms gestation at "just under a year."  I seem to have eaten my SR3 book, but I can't imagine it changed much (I seem to remember it being a little light on the pseudo-science).

System

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« Reply #41 on: (02:02:55/09-20-10) »
(12 months? She was an elf; I can't remember if we decided the term was longer - can't recall if previous editions commented on gestation period.
For the overly curious, according to my trusty 1st Ed hardcover:

Dwarf:  284 Days (~9.5 months) w/15mos+ suckling
Elf: 365 Days (~1 year) w/25mos+ suckling
Human 266.5 Days (don't forget that half day you cheaters.  ~8.8 months) w/12mos+ suckling
Ork: 187 Days (Just over 6 months) w/7mos+ suckling
Troll: 259 Days (Just over eight and a half months) w/15 mos+ suckling

To answer Critias, 3rd's core book made no biological references to the races except for average height, weight, skin color (completely pointless as all entries were pale pink or pinkish white to ebony so it would have been easier to just have said at some point "Like normal human tones) and life span.  2nd's entries were identical to 1st's.
« Last Edit: (02:04:31/09-20-10) by System »

System

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« Reply #42 on: (02:20:56/09-20-10) »
In our world today women keep working and moving and going even when pregnant. We do not disappear for 10 months to a year and just hide. 
While this is true, few women have jobs that involve anything on the level of shadowrunning.  My friend's wife was in the military and they essentially put her behind a desk.  Not that females in the military participate in any of the more strenuous occupations, but she was relegated behind a desk, put in a non-deployable status, and excused from most of the physical training they did (it was assumed that she'd exercise on her own at her own pace) to prevent any complications that might arise from the physical nature of the job.  Shadowrunning is, on a regular basis, far more strenuous and dangerous than the stateside garrison life of a non combat arms military member.  Female firefighters, for example, are also the same way.  They get put on administrative duties as soon as they find out they are pregnant.

I think assuming that any sane or rational mother would continue to actively run is a stretch.  I freely admit to not being a woman, so by all means feel free to disagree with me.  The human fetus is a tougher little bastard than many people realize, but it seems like it would take a real callous and indifferent, or severely mentally unstable woman to continuously put her unborn child at that level of extreme risk. 

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #43 on: (07:13:58/09-20-10) »
Of course, "mentally unstable" might be all the description required for most shadowrunners.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Angelone

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« Reply #44 on: (10:17:58/09-20-10) »
Out of curiosity, Cat how did your players thumb their noses at you? What were they doing? Were they being disruptive? Did their behavior bring the game to a screeching halt?  ???

I'm not trying to be combative, I am honestly curious about why you feel the situation should have been handled like it was and why you feel your players were insulting you.
REJOICE! For bad things are about to happen.
la vida no vale nada