NEWS

dice pools...cap

  • 11 Replies
  • 5839 Views

wylie

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • *
  • Posts: 298
« on: (17:58:10/02-21-11) »
Yes,  i know the cap is 20 dice

Here is my question: Take a gunslinger, through skill, specialization, cyber/ magic, and attributes to get a dice pool of 22. Throw in amdexious and fire 2 pistols, spltting the dice pool. Would the dice pool be 10, as the cap is 20, or would it be 11 for splitting the 22 dice pool?

Since this falls under Mission guidelines, I am asking it here. If it has already been asked, cool. if not..thoughts/ rulings?
There is always a player looking for a loop...

theKernel

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • I believe you like it served cold -Matador
« Reply #1 on: (18:06:24/02-21-11) »
I don't like caps...just sayin
HACK THE PLANET
Theres no place like 127.0.0.1
Always start and end character creation by asking yourself "why is this character not an ork." If you don't have a good answer you should be an ork. -UmaroVI
"Stay at least one lie ahead of everyone else"-Vitriol
SR4+++hbB?!Wdk++o+++++M+P-

Bull

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2414
  • Crotchety Old Ork Decker
« Reply #2 on: (19:11:31/02-21-11) »
The dice cap is actually Double your natural Attribute+Skill rating, or 20, whichever is higher (p.62, SR4A).  Which means for a human, it's possible to get 24 or even 28 dice on a test, if they had maxed attribute and skill ratings and the Improved Attribute and Skill qualities.  (I emphasized Natural because a lot of folks miss that.  This does mean that augmented ratings do not count...  So a Sammy with 6 Pistols, 5 Agility, and Muscle Replacement 4 would cap at 22 (Agility 5 + Pistols 6), not 30 (Agility 5 (9) + Pistols 6).

The other thing to not is that this cap is after dice penalties.  So if your natural cap would be 20, and your mods would give you a theoretical dice pool of 24, and you suffer 4 points of negative dice pool mods due to wounds or whatever, you still get your 20 Dice Pool, not 16.  Negative DP penalties come off of Bonus Dice and Augmentations first is a good way to look at it.

Now, that said, looking at "Attacker using a Second Firearm" (p.150, SR4A).

Quote
Split the dice pool before applying modifiers.

The interesting thing about that is when calculating max dice pool, you figure it out after penalties.  Since you split your dice before that, in this instance I'd say that you split your full base dice pool (Skill, plus augmented attribute, plus specialization).  You do not gain the benefit of a smartlink or laser site, and you apply all modifiers to each split pool (So negative penalties do kinda double whammy you).  The only restriction here is that if you somehow had enough bonus and augmented dice to somehow push either of the split pools up over what your normal dice cap would be, you're still effected by the cap.  Not certain how you could do that normally, but I'm sure someone could work that out.

I should note that the intention for splitting DP is to split the pool as evenly as possible, but...  It doesn't say that you have to do it that way.  So that might be one way to try and cheese the Dice Cap would be if your Natural Cap is 20, but you have 28 theoretical Dice Pool, and you split your dice 27 & 1.  In this case, you still cap out at 20 for the first gun, so the best you could do is 20 for the first and 7 for the second, before modifiers come into play.

Bull

wylie

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • *
  • Posts: 298
« Reply #3 on: (21:43:20/02-21-11) »
that is very interesting
I did not see it from that viewpoint. which if done with enough munchining, could make a deadly character with 2 pistols

thanx

Charybdis

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1506
  • If it's last name is Dragon, first name Great: RUN
« Reply #4 on: (22:58:25/02-21-11) »
that is very interesting
I did not see it from that viewpoint. which if done with enough munchining, could make a deadly character with 2 pistols

thanx
I have a Gun-Fu phys-ad who does heartily agree.....
'Too much is never enough'

Current PC: Free Spirit (Norse Shamanic)
'Names are irrelevant. Which fake ID do you want me to quote from?'

Phreak Commandment V:
If Thou Be In School, Strive To Get Thine Self Good Grades, For The Authorities Well Know That Scholars Never Break The Law

wylie

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • *
  • Posts: 298
« Reply #5 on: (18:09:59/02-24-11) »
been messing around some with the concept, and it got me wondering:

What is preferred to make a 20+ dice pool character?
adept? cyber? elf? troll?

i have been working with a troll & a elf. the troll is right at 20 w/ automatics, while the elf has 24 dice to shoot semi-automatic pistols. both are adepts

and is it worth specializing so highly in one skill?

Charybdis

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1506
  • If it's last name is Dragon, first name Great: RUN
« Reply #6 on: (18:36:15/02-24-11) »
been messing around some with the concept, and it got me wondering:

What is preferred to make a 20+ dice pool character?
adept? cyber? elf? troll?

i have been working with a troll & a elf. the troll is right at 20 w/ automatics, while the elf has 24 dice to shoot semi-automatic pistols. both are adepts

and is it worth specializing so highly in one skill?
I believe it is, especially if you can guaranteen a good supply if weird, whacky and powerful ammo for pistols.

Pistols are a good generic weapon for Shadowrunning...they can be accurate to 50m, decently concealable, and pack more than enough punch to take out very powerful enemies (if the right skill and ammo is utilised)

If you start doing things at longer ranges (or needing more Kaboom), then branching out into other guns and weapons is advisable, but especially for starting PC's, I really recommend a pistols (of all types, Hold-out, Light, Machine and Heavy).
'Too much is never enough'

Current PC: Free Spirit (Norse Shamanic)
'Names are irrelevant. Which fake ID do you want me to quote from?'

Phreak Commandment V:
If Thou Be In School, Strive To Get Thine Self Good Grades, For The Authorities Well Know That Scholars Never Break The Law

DWC

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
« Reply #7 on: (19:41:11/02-24-11) »
I tend to believe that it's not worth going all in on a single combat skill for two reasons. 

1)  Missions isn't actually that combat heavy.  I'd say about half of the Manhattan missions were easily accomplishable without drawing a weapon or firing a shot, and most of the ones that did have combats were fairly low key.

2)  Raising the soft cap is often far more work than just exceeding it, and with the omnipresence of dice pool penalties you're going to end up down at the soft cap a lot of the time anyway.

However, if you're going to sell out on one skill, I'd go with Automatics over pistols.  A heavy pistol wins out over a machine pistol slightly at ranges that you should be using a real gun for, but loses big time when you step inside the three point line.

wylie

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • *
  • Posts: 298
« Reply #8 on: (17:46:22/02-25-11) »
i agree that many of the mission can be completed without firing a shot, which leads me to think of other skills. maybe not max out at 20, but spellcasting at high dice pools could be a good alterntive.
Martial arts, stealth, hacking, and several other skills can benefit also from high dice pools, skills that could used to complete a mission without firing a shot

and a character with high stealth & martial arts could be more useful then a gun nut

Xzylvador

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3669
  • Ask me about NERPS! 30% Sales!
« Reply #9 on: (04:52:31/03-01-11) »
Quote
spellcasting at high dice pools
Maximum Drain Soaking dice sound more useful than maxing spellcasting dice itself. It's usually the drain that ends up being the spellslinger's weakness...


Quote
Missions isn't actually that combat heavy.  I'd say about half of the Manhattan missions were easily accomplishable without drawing a weapon or firing a shot, and most of the ones that did have combats were fairly low key.

That would largely depend on the group you're in...


SPOILER



In the Denver mission with the Geisha's, we got the building floorplan, detailed security information (20 armed Yakuza in the building), an invitation to get inside and a chance to scope the place out without raising any suspicion... the best my group could come up with all of that was: "We attack the guards to create a distraction on the upper floors!".
« Last Edit: (04:56:44/03-01-11) by Xzylvador »

KarmaInferno

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1873
  • Armor Stacking Cheese Monkey
« Reply #10 on: (08:46:23/03-04-11) »
I have to say, 14-16 dice have been plenty for most Missions games I've been in.



-k

Bull

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2414
  • Crotchety Old Ork Decker
« Reply #11 on: (12:22:42/03-04-11) »
Missions aren't designed for really high end characters out of the gate.  They're designed for "Average" characters, and to be playable with nothing but a table full of pregen acrhetypes from the book, since we frequently get players at conventions who have never played Missions before, so they end up grabbing a Pregen since they need a character.  When writing, I assume that most players will have around 10-14 dice for their "primary skills", and stat out NPCs to correspond to that.

Of course, the boilerplate at the front of Season 4 encourages GMs to look their players over and adjust the NPCs on the fly as needed.  So if a GM sits down at a table full of min-maxed, 100+ karma characters, he should adjust the NPCs to make them a bit more capable.

Plus, some of the Pushing the Envelope additions can get a bit rough.  Plus, there are occasions when if the players just go in guns blazing, or try to mess with the wrong NPC, they're going to possibly have issues unless they're really well and truly min-munched.

Bull