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How much do you use the matrix in your games ?

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mcv

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« Reply #30 on: (11:46:34/02-17-19) »
It SHOULDN'T be a matter of GM whim/fiat as to whether a bricked gun can shoot...the answer is a firm "no" (SR5, PG 228).  Unless of course it's explicitly a throwback gun, of course.
I'm leaning strongly towards common sense here. A gun is a mechanical device. A smartgun system is the only sensible reason why a gun might be brickable at all, and considering the vulnerability a smartgun adds to the system, it seems weird for people without a smartgun system to use a brickable gun.

I've seen discussions about this before, and even with a smartgun system, I don't think everybody agrees about this. Furthermore, when bricking a gun is really easy, particularly through Dataspike which as far as I understand doesn't require a mark, wouldn't decking end up being too powerful in combat?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #31 on: (13:11:32/02-17-19) »
It SHOULDN'T be a matter of GM whim/fiat as to whether a bricked gun can shoot...the answer is a firm "no" (SR5, PG 228).  Unless of course it's explicitly a throwback gun, of course.
I'm leaning strongly towards common sense here. A gun is a mechanical device. A smartgun system is the only sensible reason why a gun might be brickable at all, and considering the vulnerability a smartgun adds to the system, it seems weird for people without a smartgun system to use a brickable gun.
If your gun isn't using a smartgun system, why exactly do you have its wireless turned on to begin with? Sounds like people trying to make up an excuse to defend against bricking.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #32 on: (13:21:31/02-17-19) »
It SHOULDN'T be a matter of GM whim/fiat as to whether a bricked gun can shoot...the answer is a firm "no" (SR5, PG 228).  Unless of course it's explicitly a throwback gun, of course.
I'm leaning strongly towards common sense here. A gun is a mechanical device. A smartgun system is the only sensible reason why a gun might be brickable at all, and considering the vulnerability a smartgun adds to the system, it seems weird for people without a smartgun system to use a brickable gun.
If your gun isn't using a smartgun system, why exactly do you have its wireless turned on to begin with? Sounds like people trying to make up an excuse to defend against bricking.

People have wireless turned on for all their gear all the time.  Not everyone is a Shadowrunner.

Hell, most people today are perfectly fine with asking their home surveillance units for pancake recipes, alerting would-be robbers when they'll be on vacation via social media, and happily carrying around a tracking device whenever they leave the house.

Now, yes, you absolutely have a point in that anyone "smart" would have wireless shut off on any and everything that doesn't give an explicit wireless bonus.  But doing so would be screwing hackers out of having something to do in combat.  They've already got a rough enough time being relevant because of the action economy... they don't need to be further punished by having NPCs be "smarter" than real life people.
« Last Edit: (13:25:30/02-17-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #33 on: (13:23:20/02-17-19) »
It SHOULDN'T be a matter of GM whim/fiat as to whether a bricked gun can shoot...the answer is a firm "no" (SR5, PG 228).  Unless of course it's explicitly a throwback gun, of course.
I'm leaning strongly towards common sense here. A gun is a mechanical device. A smartgun system is the only sensible reason why a gun might be brickable at all, and considering the vulnerability a smartgun adds to the system, it seems weird for people without a smartgun system to use a brickable gun.
If your gun isn't using a smartgun system, why exactly do you have its wireless turned on to begin with? Sounds like people trying to make up an excuse to defend against bricking.

People have wireless turned on for all their gear all the time.  Not everyone is a Shadowrunner.

Hell, most people today are perfectly fine with asking their home surveillance units for pancake recipes, alerting would-be robbers when they'll be on vacation via social media, and happily carrying around a tracking device whenever they leave the house.

Now, yes, you absolutely have a point in that anyone "smart" would have wireless shut off on any and everything that doesn't give an explicit wireless bonus.  And maybe the game would be improved if wireless-off were removed as a mechanic.  But doing so would be screwing hackers out of having something to do in combat.  They've already got a rough enough time being relevant because of the action economy... they don't need to be further punished by having NPCs be "smarter" than real life people.
If we don't want to punish players, then why are we arguing we can't brick->unusable guns that are wireless without a smartgun system?
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #34 on: (13:32:46/02-17-19) »
If we don't want to punish players, then why are we arguing we can't brick->unusable guns that are wireless without a smartgun system?

That's a doozy of a question... so many negatives I'm not  100% clear on what exactly you're asking.

To clarify what I just said:
I'm not in favor of punishing hackers.
I AM arguing that all guns that are not explicitly throwbacks can be bricked.  The presence or absence of a smartgun system is irrelevant.

Philosophically, I prefer to rationalize that people universally leave wireless-on for their gear because they're lazy/accustomed to the benefits it brings.  Just like Real Life people are accepting of Alexas in their homes and Smart Phones in their pockets!  Having every Tom Dick and Harry act like they're elite corp sec or shadowrunners and turn wireless off on everything they "should" is unrealistic and needlessly punishes hackers.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #35 on: (13:49:30/02-17-19) »
I AM arguing that all guns that are not explicitly throwbacks can be bricked.  The presence or absence of a smartgun system is irrelevant.
I support that. But mcv argued against that. And I argued against mcv. And somehow you argued against me instead of with me. XD
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Overbyte

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« Reply #36 on: (13:53:35/02-17-19) »
My two cents:
I think the bricking gun thing (which never happens in my games because no one uses the matrix) comes down to really one simple question:
"Does the gun have an electronic or mechanical firing mechanism".
Almost every gun these days is purely mechanical, but the argument has been made on these boards that most guns in 2070 (or whenever) have electronic firing pins.
I suppose you could ask the secondary question: "Does the gun have an electronic loading mechanism", but my thinking on that is that unless you have some sort of skipping function it most likely does not although I could see the argument that automatics do not, while revolvers do since automatics require the mechanical powering of the slide mechanism in order to work while a revolver might have a motor to spin cylinders.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #37 on: (14:00:23/02-17-19) »
I AM arguing that all guns that are not explicitly throwbacks can be bricked.  The presence or absence of a smartgun system is irrelevant.
I support that. But mcv argued against that. And I argued against mcv. And somehow you argued against me instead of with me. XD

Ah, I see that now.  The tunnel of quotes got too deep.

My two cents:
I think the bricking gun thing (which never happens in my games because no one uses the matrix) comes down to really one simple question:
"Does the gun have an electronic or mechanical firing mechanism".
Almost every gun these days is purely mechanical, but the argument has been made on these boards that most guns in 2070 (or whenever) have electronic firing pins.
I suppose you could ask the secondary question: "Does the gun have an electronic loading mechanism", but my thinking on that is that unless you have some sort of skipping function it most likely does not although I could see the argument that automatics do not, while revolvers do since automatics require the mechanical powering of the slide mechanism in order to work while a revolver might have a motor to spin cylinders.

A bricked device is totally useless (SR5 pg 202)

to expound on what that means, there's a paragraph following that statement:
Quote from: SR5 pg 202
If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries
are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed
up with melted internals, and so on. That said, not all
devices are completely useless when bricked. A vibrosword
is still sharp, a roto-drone glides to the ground
on auto-gyro, a lock stays locked. The firing pin on an
assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just
fine for stabbing smug hackers. And you canít exactly
brick a katana, ne? And donít panic when your trickedout
combat bike gets bricked; it will ride again Ö if you
know a competent technician.

So, yeah, there's explicit support for your gun not firing but it's bayonet still being perfectly useful.  But every other function of the gun is implicitly gone (integral guncam in your smartgun system, the ability to wirelessly eject a clip, etc etc)

If the revolver isn't a throwback, when it's bricked it's just a heavy lump of metal.


Michael Chandra

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« Reply #38 on: (14:06:03/02-17-19) »
By the way, any player worried about bricked guns should take the Throwing Weapons skill. 8) What's the damage of a thrown Predator?
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Overbyte

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« Reply #39 on: (18:28:25/02-17-19) »

A bricked device is totally useless (SR5 pg 202)

to expound on what that means, there's a paragraph following that statement:
Quote from: SR5 pg 202
If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries
are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed
up with melted internals, and so on. That said, not all
devices are completely useless when bricked. A vibrosword
is still sharp, a roto-drone glides to the ground
on auto-gyro, a lock stays locked. The firing pin on an
assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just
fine for stabbing smug hackers. And you canít exactly
brick a katana, ne? And donít panic when your trickedout
combat bike gets bricked; it will ride again Ö if you
know a competent technician.

So, yeah, there's explicit support for your gun not firing but it's bayonet still being perfectly useful.  But every other function of the gun is implicitly gone (integral guncam in your smartgun system, the ability to wirelessly eject a clip, etc etc)

If the revolver isn't a throwback, when it's bricked it's just a heavy lump of metal.

Yes. I read that, but it leaves some leeway and I prefer sensible interpretations over blind loyalty to the "blurbs".
My point was that (IMO) there is a spectrum of possibilities between throwback and completely wireless for all functions.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

Reaver

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« Reply #40 on: (22:04:44/02-17-19) »
Well, the guns of SR, are not the guns of today, that much is very clear.

All firearms in SR use caseless ammo - something that was researched and abandoned by 1993 for us.

Also, technological creep is probably also a factor. Take your phone for example; why is a device that you are supposed to speak into capable of surfing the internet, playing full length videos, play games, record full length video (or millions of pictures), report your location, and help you navigate a city!?!? ITS A FUCKIN PHONE!!! - YOU TALK INTO IT!!! Firearms in SR probably could order, and and make you a cup of soy-caf with all the extra shit they have put into it...

(I can just see it now... the Runner, slinking through the hallway, approaching the guard station, pulls his pistol.
GUN: "Good evening Mr. Smith. It is currently 73 degrees outside, with a humidity factor of 4%. Rain Expected at 7am -Pack a umbrella. Lightning levels low, activating low light sights, and gun flashlight - no need to thank me. You currently have APDS ammo loaded, adjusting sights to compensate for propellant load and projectile weight. Please, Don't forget to update to Firmware patch 45.23a At your earliest convenience. Thank you for Shopping Ares!
Runner: "Fuck... forgot to put it in silent mode..."
Guard: "Yep... And don't worry about that Firmware update. Its crap." *BANG!*)

Anyhow, thanks to the caseless ammo, it could be argued that the current firearms use a electronic spark to fire the round instead of a percussion explosion now, and that is the very thing that gets "bricked" when the gun is bricked... you can pull that trigger all day long, but no spark, no ingition of the propellant, no shooty stuff.


But really, at the end of the day, it boils down to an attempt to make the Decker archtype a little more viable by not only giving him something matrix-y to do during combat, but also helps de-pioritize direct combat skills for the decker. A big complaint for deckers has always been skill bloat and "you can't make an effective decker and an effective combatant"... well now you don't have to, and still have an effect on combat.
 

So really, this becomes mute pretty fast if you don't have a decker on your team... as event the most proficient  NPC decker isn't going to to be able to do much that changes the outcome... Yea he bricks a gun - which you use to beat him to death with. Then spend an hour with a electronics kit to get your gun working again... And really, who doesn't carry a spare gun?

Or four...
« Last Edit: (22:23:07/02-17-19) by Reaver »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #41 on: (00:36:35/02-18-19) »
Dragon Song had Deckers. They ended up mostly stressing out the GMs, who needed an excuse to destroy the decks during/after the fights to prevent players from obtaining too much loot. I literally had a bad guy blow up 'the evidence', including his unconscious decker teammate, to get rid of one.
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Reaver

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« Reply #42 on: (02:05:29/02-18-19) »
not familiar with any of the Missions products...

(but it tickles a bell... if this was a 3e mission - I may be remembering it..)
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Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

mcv

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« Reply #43 on: (09:10:35/02-19-19) »
Alright, I accept that practically every gun should be brickable according to the rules. So how does this work out in practice? Have any of you had deckers try to brick everything? How did that work out?

I imagine during a spontaneous shoot-out, the decker won't be fast enough to do more damage decking than if they were shooting, but during a stand-off, the decker might be quietly hacking into the opposition's guns without them noticing. Bricking them will draw attention, but as long as they're just collecting marks and only start bricking stuff when the situation heats up, the decker could short-circuit the whole situation. Is that cool or will the decker deny the other runners their opportunity to shine?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #44 on: (10:13:41/02-19-19) »
Well the Decker can usually neutralize targets via hacking faster than they can neutralize them with a gun... depending of course upon how bad the hacking and how good the weapon skills are.

The real rub is whether the Decker can neutralize threats via hacking faster than the Sammy or Mage can neutralize them via simple violence.  Early in my Chicago Decker's career I'd score marks on cybereyes or a gun only to see that target get geeked before my next action. 

It's the action economy that makes combat hacking so very difficult.  Recent books have addressed it a bit. BtB gives the (imo mandatory for all hackers) Quality that allows you a free bonus matrix action before the first pass of every combat.  Kill Code provides rules for performing actions that require marks without first scoring those marks.  Put the two together and you no longer need 3 passes to eliminate 1 threat.