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[FA] New options from Forbidden Arcana

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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #45 on: (18:10:07/05-19-17) »
Drain is described as
"The manipulation of mana, whether forming of a spell, brewing a potion, or bringing forth a being from another plane, can exhaust or injure you. Mana is a form of energy, and channeling greater quantities of that energy can strain the body and mind. This effect is referred to as Drain. [...]
Drain generally is inflicted on you as Stun damage, though there are situations in which it can be Physical damage."

I'd say that is a pretty strong argument that Drain is in fact incoming damage.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #46 on: (18:24:04/05-19-17) »
If we want to be pedantic about it, you could potentially argue that all damage is "incoming." I'm making the argument that it is referring to damage coming from an outside source, e.g. that Flamethrower coming at you. Since drain is internalized (it doesn't come in from somewhere else), it is never incoming.

Also:
incoming: to arrive, to come in.
inflicted: to cause to suffer.

They aren't synonymous.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #47 on: (18:31:41/05-19-17) »
Your argument is that the damage doesn't come from outside, but the text says it stems from the magic energy that is channeled through you. That is definitively damage from outside that is inflicted on you not that is caused by you on you.

Incoming damage is in my opinion a differentiation to damage that you already have recorded on your health bar. It merely clarifies that this quality doesn't heal/reduce damage you already have suffered.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #48 on: (19:56:12/05-19-17) »
Your argument is that the damage doesn't come from outside, but the text says it stems from the magic energy that is channeled through you. That is definitively damage from outside that is inflicted on you not that is caused by you on you.

Yes, inflicted, but never incoming (arriving from outside). It is damage that is being caused by you through the channeling of the magic. There is no way for Drain to be directed outside. Not to mention that we could argue that when the drain is "incoming" it isn't elemental, the Elemental Focus quality changes it to that element. It's a simple matter to make these two qualities stack in a way that is unbalancing.

Incoming damage is in my opinion a differentiation to damage that you already have recorded on your health bar. It merely clarifies that this quality doesn't heal/reduce damage you already have suffered.

How could a quality ever be used to heal damage that you've already taken? Are you suggesting that a character spontaneously gain this quality and have it heal old damage? The phrase "[reduce] damage from their chosen element by half" coupled with the clarification "damage is halved before rolling for damage resistance" already does all of that.

All I'm suggesting is that GMs who feel that the combination of these two qualities is unbalancing has room to rule that drain taken through the Elemental Focus quality is not subject to the halving of the Elemental Master quality. You very clearly would still be immune to the secondary effects of that element, even from your drain.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #49 on: (11:00:10/05-20-17) »
The mana certainly doesn't come from inside the mage, but the manasphere  ::)

There are a few qualities and powers that remove damage that isn't incoming but has already been sustained - most notably the one that gives regeneration or the one that let's you transfer damage.
And no, I'm not suggesting that the Elemental Master is healing previously sustained damage. Quite the reverse. Whatever gave you that idea?

The GM is always free to ban anything he doesn't want in his game. That's rule 0. I am talking about what is RAW (and therefore not necessarily about what is RAI or - for that matter - sane).
If a GM doesn't want that combo because it's too powerful for his table - fine.
If he bans it because he really believes that "incoming damage" excludes drain damage, I'd certainly argue that this is bullshit. 

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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #50 on: (18:08:53/05-20-17) »
RAW in Shadowrun has never been a simple matter, and quite frankly a lot of things even Rules as Written has a lot of room for interpretation and sometimes entire rules areas where things just aren't defined.

So yes, there is a difference between some (rare) qualities or items that remove or heal damage, and qualities or items that reduce damage taken. The verbage that they use for those two different operations are already quite different. Your comment that the use of "incoming" was a clarification on that difference is what I was trying to refute.

The SR rules are filled with terminology usage that is never clearly defined. In fact, there is exactly 1 instance of the core rulebook referring to damage as "incoming damage" which is on page 397 in the Example for Hardened Armor. It is referring to the damage when it is being compared against the Armor Value. The only other time they even use the term "incoming" is in reference to attacks coming at a target. All of these uses are outside attacks that are inbound toward the target.

I've always viewed Drain as the Magician's ability to channel the energy that they are shaping into the spells they are creating. As they channel more magic, the strain becomes greater, resulting in a higher amount of Drain to resist. This is supported by the Sensitive System negative quality which outright states that because of your more sensitive system you sometimes take more damage as the energy being channeled hits your body harder. So I relate this to essentially Magical Fatigue Tests. I wouldn't count Fatigue as "incoming" damage either, it is damage caused by overexertion (like Running) or lack of something your body otherwise needs (Hunger, Thirst, Sleep, etc).

And yes, the mana is certainly coming from inside the mage or at least channeling through them. The manasphere isn't "taking a spell order" dishing out the effects of the spell to the target and then giving the mage back their change in the form of Drain. There isn't some outside source sending the Drain at them independent of the Magician.

With the Elemental Focus quality, the Magician has essentially tapped into a way to increase their control over their chosen element (dice pool bonus), but at the cost of channeling part of that damaging effect through themselves. Essentially changing the Drain Value to result in the effects of Elemental Damage. The Elemental Mastery quality protects you (and your gear) against incoming threats of that Element, but (to use a Fire reference), it doesn't help you when you're burning yourself from the inside out. You handle the elemental effects better (being immune to the secondary effects), I just don't think it reduces the actual Drain Value. Oh, plus the fact that Elemental Focus states that the drain is "taken" as that Element, which would be after it is "incoming." Just noticed that part...

UnLimiTeD

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« Reply #51 on: (18:36:56/05-20-17) »
Actually, that last sentence might just be the most relevant.
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #52 on: (03:47:26/05-21-17) »
I hope you have noticed that consistent terminology isn't exactly a strength of CGL's Shadowrun.

But the fact that you use the word "channeling" already shows that there is an outside force (mana) that is routed through the magician into the mundane world. That is fact inside and outside the game world. It's the reason you can't cast in space and why mana voids are bad for you.

Leaving ingame fluff explanations aside: Drain is not fatigue damage. Drain is damage you receive for performing magic.. To borrow a D&D term (The game has its own problems, but at least they use keywords and consistent terminology): Drain is usually untyped damage. Elemental focus changes the damage type. Elemental master makes you resistant to that damage type (I'm pretty sure whoever came up with the quality was at least subconsciously influenced by the D&D 5 concept). 
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Myriad

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« Reply #53 on: (03:21:09/05-22-17) »
Probably the easiest one, but overlooked:

Archivist + Any logic (or int) tradition + College Education + C+ resources

Augment:  Daredrenaline (.1), (optional Cereb boost x2 (.4), narco (.2)), pain editor (.3 after gen) = 1 essence, or 5 magic.

5 logic/5 int base = 20 skills * 2 college = 40 'academic magic ranks' / 4 = 10 qualifying / 2 archivist = +5 for drain code until physical is taken.  AKA Force 10.

+2 daredrenaline/pain editor for willpower, use a dwarf or gnome, for 9 willpower (optional)

Can skip cereb booster, and narco for foci but this comes out a little stronger at gen since karma is needed so much for binding.
« Last Edit: (03:23:40/05-22-17) by Myriad »

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #54 on: (03:36:17/05-22-17) »
That's quite a large investment for something you can do with reagents (set the limit to your Mag rating so spells don't get physical drain)
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #55 on: (05:44:34/05-22-17) »
But the fact that you use the word "channeling" already shows that there is an outside force (mana) that is routed through the magician into the mundane world. That is fact inside and outside the game world. It's the reason you can't cast in space and why mana voids are bad for you.
That's kind of my point, the energy is taken in, then (potentially) damages you on the way back out. Drain is a result of outgoing energy, otherwise you would take drain before the effects of the magic took place. This is the primary reason I wouldn't consider Drain to be "incoming" damage.

Leaving ingame fluff explanations aside: Drain is not fatigue damage. Drain is damage you receive for performing magic.. To borrow a D&D term (The game has its own problems, but at least they use keywords and consistent terminology): Drain is usually untyped damage. Elemental focus changes the damage type. Elemental master makes you resistant to that damage type (I'm pretty sure whoever came up with the quality was at least subconsciously influenced by the D&D 5 concept).

While I agree with your assessment of the D&D influences, my point about comparing Drain and Fatigue was to draw the parallels between them. Yes, I know that Drain isn't Fatigue or a type of Fatigue, but in a lot of ways I think it has more in common with Fatigue than it does with other types of damage. Drain is a direct result of the strain that you put yourself through when you perform magic. It isn't the spell shooting out and part of it arcing back and hitting you, it isn't the manasphere sending retribution for your intrusion on its domain. It isa direct result of attempting to use that magic. Just calling it "damage you receive for performing magic" makes it sound like some entity is out there doling out damage when people trying to perform feats of magic.


That's quite a large investment for something you can do with reagents (set the limit to your Mag rating so spells don't get physical drain)

The results of Archivist is not quite the same as using Reagents. Using reagents to set your Limit means that you are capped on the number of hits you can use. Myriad's suggestion allows you to use up to 10 hits without your Drain being switched over to Physical Damage. This means that the Force 10 Fireball with 10 hits (which would be a whopping 17 damage at AP -10, in a 10 meter radius blast) would only deal 9S in Drain damage (by default).
Yeah, it's a lot of resources spent on a very niche thing, and debatable whether or not it is truly useful, but it would essentially guarantee that you never take Physical Damage from Drain. On that note, however, I have been in situations before where taking Physical Drain was actually preferable because the Magician didn't want to fall unconscious from Stun damage, however, that's what the Pain Editor is for. It's definitely an odd combination, being a super-book-smart educated magician that pushes the limits of drain so hard that you've been modded to not feel pain and push yourself to the brink by overcasting and not caring because all the drain is Stun damage.

UnLimiTeD

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« Reply #56 on: (07:32:55/05-22-17) »
Not everything that's possible in the rules makes sense in character development.
At that point, you might as well utilize fetish casting and subject yourself to a mentors mask.
Well, and of course if you're willing to specialize you can pick a hedge wizard and initiate into Structured Spellcasting, and that Fireball will suddenly only deal 3 Drain.
Many options, though most have drawbacks.
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #57 on: (08:13:33/05-22-17) »
@Kiirnodel

I think we'll have to agree to disagree - we certainly won't convince each other.

@Archivist Quality

The opportunity cost for this method is quite high: Investing all your starting Knowledge into (probably redundant) magical knowledge skills to gain an advantage that only changes the type of damage you get instead on focusing to reduce drain is sub optimal. Especially if the reagents trick allows you a flexible approach with much lower cost (1 Karma is worth about 100 reagents - you need to cast quite a lot of high force spells before you can even begin to break even)
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gradivus

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« Reply #58 on: (01:03:33/06-11-17) »
I wouldn't go out of my way to maximize magic knowledge skills as Myriad suggested.

However, if you use life modules you usually end up with multiple magic knowledge skills as an awakened, so throwing archivist to capitalize on that I'd do.

Did anyone mention Dedicated Conjurer Chain Breaking Shaman Aspected Mage:
At MR6 that's 10 spirit types to summon
« Last Edit: (01:09:20/06-11-17) by gradivus »
"Speech" Thought >>Matrix<< Astral

Marcus

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« Reply #59 on: (02:29:36/06-11-17) »
FA really did open up a pile of doors, the one that does interest me the most is priority seeing aspect. Yeah sure seeing Astral is cute, and all but it does something else that worth considering.
You can bond weapon Foci, and while you won't get any magic powers from it you could also have a mentor spirits, lets keep in mind Shark and Stag are both combat dice adders and plenty more are social dice adders. Sure Magic 4 and access to no powers there are some very real limits on what you can get done, but it's an interesting new option to consider.
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