NEWS

Standard vs Specialty Decks

  • 27 Replies
  • 3416 Views

Desiani

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 112
« Reply #15 on: (13:12:48/02-04-17) »

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 2086
« Reply #16 on: (14:04:26/02-04-17) »
You need Marks to do anything useful.  As soon as you Brute Force on an Icon that Icon's owner (the Spider in this case)  knows about it.  Spider uses Matrix Perception on it's turn to get a count of Marks on the Icon to identify the Hacker's Mark.  Hacker gets one action and then the Spider starts to roll to Erase Mark.  You're not getting much done typically with a single action.  Possibly a few more if you win the Erase Mark tests of course. 

If you're searching for something specific the Base time is 20 Turns, you cut it down to 4 or 5 with a decent Search, so the Spider (and IC) have 12+ checks to find you.  With Teamwork that's going to start to look like a decent chance to get spotted.  And once you find the Icon you need, you Brute Force again and the Spider finds your Mark on that Icon and starts trying to Erase Mark on that Icon.  Potentially you've got one Matrix Action on your Target.

All in all it looks to me like you significantly ramp up your chance for failure by giving the Spider and IC bunches of chances to mess with you for no gain other than cuteness.

Adamo1618

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • The Bearded Avenger
« Reply #17 on: (18:28:27/02-04-17) »
Not all hosts have spiders monitoring them 24/7, mainly because IC is way cheaper. And as far as I know, IC can't remove marks. But yeah, it's a different story once the spider jacks into the Matrix. I can't seem to find any details on what happens when your marks are removed while inside a host. Odd, should be a very important aspect of hacking.
"Home is the place where you can perform the helicopter to Korpiklaani without shame."
 - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
_ _.--´--.
'--O---O-'

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2984
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
    • Moth's Mad Path
« Reply #18 on: (19:30:49/02-04-17) »
You need Marks to do anything useful.  As soon as you Brute Force on an Icon that Icon's owner (the Spider in this case)  knows about it.  Spider uses Matrix Perception on it's turn to get a count of Marks on the Icon to identify the Hacker's Mark.  Hacker gets one action and then the Spider starts to roll to Erase Mark.  You're not getting much done typically with a single action.  Possibly a few more if you win the Erase Mark tests of course. 

Actually you usually do get a lot done with a single action.  And keep in mind that you can probably place marks faster than they can remove, which will come up if you're doing something you don't need 3 marks for.

Quote
If you're searching for something specific the Base time is 20 Turns, you cut it down to 4 or 5 with a decent Search, so the Spider (and IC) have 12+ checks to find you.  With Teamwork that's going to start to look like a decent chance to get spotted.  And once you find the Icon you need, you Brute Force again and the Spider finds your Mark on that Icon and starts trying to Erase Mark on that Icon.  Potentially you've got one Matrix Action on your Target.

The spider and IC can't be both making that many checks and assisting eachother.  It's likely they can't assist eachother in Matrix Perception anyways, as it isn't possible for someone to "point out" an icon in the matrix to someone else.  Assuming you're on a R7 Host (which is pretty high for a fresh character), or the spider has both 6 Intuition and 6 Computer, and a Specialization in Matrix Perception, that's still 13 dice less than you--  AKA, you're rolling almost twice as many dice.  12 rolls is not enough to bridge that gap, especially when you're free to use Edge on the rare chance you roll 4 or less hits.

I'm also still not convinced the spider would be alerted to exactly what file is being attacked.  Regardless though, as this concept requires 10 LOG, such a character could place marks on the file likely faster than the spider could remove them.  And cracking or copying a file only needs 1 mark.

Quote
All in all it looks to me like you significantly ramp up your chance for failure by giving the Spider and IC bunches of chances to mess with you for no gain other than cuteness.

And I'd have to say you're definitely wrong about that.  You may have pointed out how it's not an automatic win, but that hardly makes it somehow absolutely terrible.  You're also only discussing one very specific scenario of hacking a file in a host (and ignoring everything else a host is used for) and missing one of the biggest parts of it.

YOU CAN DESTROY THE SPIDER.

I could plink him to death with Brute Force if I wanted to.  He has no way of taking me out first; and none of the IC will find me.  Now he's out of the picture, and I only have to bother with a lazy Patrol IC that won't be able to spot me.  They have no way of removing marks anymore either.  A normal build who takes out the spider still has the threat of IC trying to kill them.
« Last Edit: (19:33:48/02-04-17) by firebug »
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Adamo1618

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • The Bearded Avenger
« Reply #19 on: (20:36:22/02-04-17) »
C'mon, any GM would pit your 20+ matrix stealth decker against a better-than-average-spider. You're not facing a Log 6/Int 6 spider.
"Home is the place where you can perform the helicopter to Korpiklaani without shame."
 - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
_ _.--´--.
'--O---O-'

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 2086
« Reply #20 on: (20:55:25/02-04-17) »
I can't seem to find any details on what happens when your marks are removed while inside a host. Odd, should be a very important aspect of hacking.

Nothing.  You're already in.  But to do anything meaningful you've got to remark.

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 2086
« Reply #21 on: (21:10:00/02-04-17) »

I'm also still not convinced the spider would be alerted to exactly what file is being attacked. 

The target Icon reports to it's owner that it's under attack.  Spider should know what Icon you're attacking.

p. 236  - Bold by me

If you succeed with an Attack action, your target
becomes aware that it is under attack by another icon,
but it doesn’t automatically spot you. It will most likely
actively search for you on its next action, although it
will almost always alert its owne
r to the attack and (if
it’s a host) launch IC, depending on the owner’s preferences and the gamemaster’s judgment.

And Hacking a Host isn't a niche thing, it's the most difficult thing a Hacker does.  I'm not saying it's unworkable, or bad, I'm saying you're adding an additional chance of failure that Sleaze hackers don't have.

You can have a Hack on the Fly pool equal to your Brute Force roll and you'd still be undetectable by anything sane.  Failed Sleaze rolls are bad, but not instantly fatal.  Most of the time anyway   ;D

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6473
« Reply #22 on: (04:48:33/02-05-17) »
Yeah,
getting a MARK is just a matter of reboot and/or remove MARK. Failing a brute force damages your deck permanently (at least for the duration of the mission).
Just get the Fade To Black quality and you can hide with the same action as the one you use to erase the MARK.
With stats as high as these you can keep the game up almost indefinitely
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2984
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
    • Moth's Mad Path
« Reply #23 on: (07:39:40/02-05-17) »
You're not discussing just basic hacking a host, you're discussing a host-focused datasteal, based around Matrix Search and copying files.  Which doesn't make sense anyways, because Crack File is an Attack action and so there's no way to do it other than alerting the spider to which file you're removing protection from!  All the things you mentioned about the spider just immediately knowing you attacked a file apply to literally anyone.  What's to stop a spider from just going "You removed the protection, I put it back on, you removed it, I put it back on, you removed it, I put it back on."  If your answer would be "They're not marked as the Owner, and so can't put the protection back on it", then I'd like to point out that they wouldn't be alerted to attack actions against it either, then.

Once you take out the spider (don't ignore this), you don't need to worry about your marks being removed.  And if you fail a Sleaze action and get marked, that gives all the launched IC a turn to attack you.  I still think it would be better to just blow the spider away, then risk a few points of damage on a failure over all the IC swinging at you.  If the launched IC includes a Probe IC, then even one turn of them attacking you could mean failure.  Even if you didn't alert everyone with Attack actions, a failed Sleaze action alerts them too, so if you failed again you're get swarmed, where you can afford more than one or two failures with Attack actions unless you somehow absolutely botch the roll and take 4 boxes at once (in which case, you could also have just botched the Erase Mark or Hide roll and then get overrun).

Also, Adamo, even a Lesser Demigod (Professional Rating 5) only has a pool of 13 (Electronics Group 8, 5 INT).  So trust me, what I said is not an average spider.  Even a Professional Rating 6 Greater Demigod, who has the Electronics group at 11 and 6 INT is still 10 dice below you.  They won't be totally unable to spot you ever, but unless they send Fastjack or Slamm-O! after you, you'll have an advantage.  Against any opponent who a fresh runner would actually be facing, it's a joke.
« Last Edit: (08:10:08/02-05-17) by firebug »
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 2086
« Reply #24 on: (10:25:53/02-05-17) »
You're not discussing just basic hacking a host, you're discussing a host-focused datasteal, based around Matrix Search and copying files.  Which doesn't make sense anyways, because Crack File is an Attack action and so there's no way to do it other than alerting the spider to which file you're removing protection from!  All the things you mentioned about the spider just immediately knowing you attacked a file apply to literally anyone.  What's to stop a spider from just going "You removed the protection, I put it back on, you removed it, I put it back on, you removed it, I put it back on."  If your answer would be "They're not marked as the Owner, and so can't put the protection back on it", then I'd like to point out that they wouldn't be alerted to attack actions against it either, then.


Crack File is an Attack action, so yes, the Spider could put the File Protection back on the Icon as a reaction.  However the RAW is that the Spider only knows a successful Attack action targeted that Icon.  Could be Brute Force, could be Data Spike, could be Crack File, or whatever.  The Spider really should have to spend an action using Matrix Perception to figure it out.  But yes, a Dick GM can stop all Matrix Data Steals forever.  They could do that anyway, they're the GM. 

And if the Spider isn't considered the owner of every Icon in the Host I think the Matrix breaks in a fundamental way.  That's wandering towards hand-waiving territory that the Matrix rules rely on. 

And if you're just taking a tour to check out the host Architecture, fine, but if you actually want to do something you typically need to find the Icon associated with that thing.  Be it a Data Steal, Elevator Controls, or whatever.  Unless you're conveniently using Direct Access on the thing you want to Hack anyway (which happens a lot) you still need to do a Search to find the Icon to do a thing.  If you need to find multiple Icon's to do things you're spending a long time in that host.  The more dice rolls you have to make the greater the chance of failure.

And if there is a Meat space component to your run you've just tripped the Alarm.   


Once you take out the spider (don't ignore this), you don't need to worry about your marks being removed. 

It's simple risk avoidance.  If doing A always creates a risk, and doing B sometimes creates a risk, unless the risk created by B is catastrophic failure, you go with B.  Starting a Hack with an Attack Action always alerts the Icon Owner once you get a Mark.  Brute Force doesn't give you a better chance of getting a Mark than Hack on the Fly.  If Brute Force had a greater chance than Hack on the Fly in getting that initial Mark it would be a different story.

The risk from a failed Sleaze action is that the Icon's owner responds with an immediate Data Spike that Bricks the Deck in a single shot.  Which isn't really a big deal, one hour later you can try again.  (Presuming the Decker has a Hardware skill and toolbox anyway....).  As long as the Deck isn't Bricked, Re-boot (or Erase Mark, whatever), and try again.

Absolutely you can take out the Spider.  The Samurai can gun down the rent-a-cops on site too.  But starting the Run with "Roll initiative" is usually a terrible idea. 

Again.  Hilarious concept.  I've thought about making similar concepts, it just boils down to Brute Force requires another skill to be maxed (Cyber Combat) and another Matrix Attribute (Attack) that Sleaze focused Hackers don't have to invest as much in.  And it doesn't increase your overall chance of Success.  (arguably Hack on the Fly could have a higher limit so would have a greater chance of success overall, but....)  And actual play would take forever since you immediately drop into initiative passes, but as you mention, don't play this build 'cause it's a dick move. 

The real key to the build is the silly high levels of dice to oppose Matrix Perception, and that benefits a Sleaze based approach just as much.

Novocrane

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2225
« Reply #25 on: (19:40:16/02-05-17) »
Quote
Absolutely you can take out the Spider.  The Samurai can gun down the rent-a-cops on site too.
The difference is that rent-a-cops take time to reinforce, while a spider you forcefully eject from a host can be replaced and reinforced from anywhere around the world at the speed of logging in.

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2984
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
    • Moth's Mad Path
« Reply #26 on: (10:01:30/02-06-17) »
Well, at the speed the spider calling his employers, telling them what happened, then them calling another spider, who (assuming they aren't busy doing something else) needs at least a minute to get ready, and then logs in.

And then you can just take them out again if you need to.  What is it with this backlash?  Do all of you think cybercombat is worthless outside of decker fights on the grid?  Do you really think the only way to accomplish things in a host is Hack on the Fly?
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 2086
« Reply #27 on: (12:09:18/02-06-17) »
Agreed that a back up Spider showing up in the handful of seconds a typical hack takes is unlikely.  If there were multiple Security Spiders available I'd expect all of them to show up rather quickly instead of taking a number.  *shrug*

I really disagree with putting forward the idea that using Brute Force instead of Hack on the Fly is a good plan.  There may be some odd-ball situations where it's better, but overall, it's a bad idea, especially when hacking a Host.

IMO alerting a Host is a very bad thing.  For numerous reasons.  (Meat space Alarms, Notoriety/Public Awareness, Slows down play, dramatically increases the number of opposed checks needed...)  There should be significant upside to justify using Brute Force to get marks other than "I'm invincible (or Invisible, or whatever)".