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Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask

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ScytheKnight

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« on: (02:37:40/06-18-15) »
Well, this is one of those situations of WTH are we supposed to look at for prices...

Working on a character and am putting together the armor including a Ballistic Mask which I felt could do with some additional sensors to increase data for the character, especially as it has a datajack to DNI all this sensor data.

Thinh is, what are the prices for this kind of thing? For example I can install an Olfactory Sensor for [1] Capacity... the question is how much does an actual Olfactory Sensor like this cost? are we using them from Sensors P445 in which case it's Rating X 100 for a single sensor, or do we take it from Augmentations, in which case it's Rating x 4,000... which needless to say is a MASSIVE difference for a rating 6, or even 8 Olfactory Senser compare to an Olfactory Booster... and the description of Olfactory Sensor states to treat it just like the Booster augmentation...
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #1 on: (02:42:40/06-18-15) »
You use normal (cheap) sensors. But be aware, that your mask has a limited size, so you won't be able to install a rating higher than 2 or 3, limiting it's usefulness.
The cyberware stuff is always more expensive (Just compare smartlink for your glasses to smartlink for your eyes...)
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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #2 on: (02:46:20/06-18-15) »
huh... is that coming from the table on P446?

SENSOR HOUSINGS
SENSOR
PACKAGE
MAX
SENSOR
RATING
RFID, audio or visual device, headware 2
Handheld device, small (or smaller) drone 3
etc.

This type of stuff is why I actually discouraged my players away from Riggers (as sensor suites are an important part of spy/overwatch drones) so much of this stuff is just insanely confusing.

from what I can work out... this would use the 'headware' sized housing thus be limited to rating 2, costing 200 and providing +2 to olfactory perception tests yes?
« Last Edit: (02:48:34/06-18-15) by ScytheKnight »
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #3 on: (02:56:12/06-18-15) »
Nope, that would allow you to make olfactory perception tests with your perception or electronic warfare skill and be limited to two successes...
yeah, that is pretty crappy.

If you integrate one in your armor you could at least get a rating of 3.

These kind of sensors are more useful for stuff you can't stealth like cyberware or millimeter wave scanners
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I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #4 on: (03:28:35/06-18-15) »
Nope, that would allow you to make olfactory perception tests with your perception or electronic warfare skill and be limited to two successes...
yeah, that is pretty crappy.

If you integrate one in your armor you could at least get a rating of 3.

These kind of sensors are more useful for stuff you can't stealth like cyberware or millimeter wave scanners

Totally wrong! That's like saying that Vision Enhancement limits your Visual Perception tests to 3... basically a ludicrous statement.

ScytheKnight... you can put a Senor Rating 2 in the Ballistic Mask. You use the Sensor chart (pg 446) not the Augmentation chart (pg 452). It will give a +2 bonus to any Smell Perception Test the Limit is still Mental... it doesn't provide a Limit increase like Vision/Audio do.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #5 on: (06:22:14/06-18-15) »
You are mixing up cyberware that costs essence with sensors and sensor suits that you access through AR.

Relevant rule on p.184

"To detect a person, critter, or vehicle with sensors, the character/vehicle must make a successful Sensor Test. Characters roll Perception + Intuition [Sensor], vehicles roll Pilot + Clearsight [Sensor]. If the target is trying to evade detection, make this an Opposed Test versus the
targetís Infiltration + Agility [Physical] (metahumans, critters), Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (driven vehicles), or Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling] (drones)."
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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #6 on: (06:36:48/06-18-15) »
On the other hand that's a sensor for a drone or vehicle rather than a sensor on a piece of equipment being accessed via a DNI...
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #7 on: (06:54:55/06-18-15) »
How else do you access the sensor of a drone?

If you want the goodies you have to pay extra cash and essence  ;D
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #8 on: (06:56:55/06-18-15) »
Jack_Spade
To be fair, I think you're mixing up the usage of Vehicle Sensors with that of enhancements. The OP isn't accessing a drone sensor; he's accessing an olfactory enhancement installed in a mask, similar to vision and audio enhancements.

Quote from: SR5 page 446
Olfactory scanner: The olfactory sensor picks up and analyzes the molecules in the air. It works in the same way as the olfactory booster cyberware.

Quote from: SR5 page 452
Olfactory Booster: This cybersnout enhances, identifies, and records smells, and can play them back later. The massively enhanced olfactory capabilities of a sniffer open up a whole new world of sensory data to you - youíll be able to sense things that ordinarily only a scenthound would. You can smell peopleís emotions in their sweat (and if applicable, the makerís mark of their tailored pheromones), traces of ammunition propellant, explosives, or biological and chemical warfare compounds - the list goes on and on. A cut-off function allows you to completely ignore intense odors, possibly the most convenient feature for use in your daily life. The olfactory booster can even be used in VR to create an even more immersive experience. Add the boosterís rating as a dice pool modifier to your scent-based Perception Tests.

The above is more similar to audio and video enhancements than it is to a sensor.

Quote from: SR5 page 444
This sharpens a characterís vision at all ranges, providing visual acuity closer to that of the average hawk than that of the average metahuman. It adds its Rating as a positive modifier to your limit on visual Perception Tests. Wireless: Add the vision enhancementís rating as a dice pool modifier to your visual Perception Tests.

To the OP:
I'd argue that a ballistic mask is as large as or even larger than a handheld device, so I'd say you could put a Rating 3 sensor in your mask. As always, check with your GM.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #9 on: (07:03:28/06-18-15) »
I see your argument.
But even if you grant the bonus dice (as a GM I'd allow it) you are still limited by the sensor rating.
The olfactory booster is not listed with the audio and video enhancements but with the sensor functions.
Also the cited text is from the rigger chapter, but it is not limited to drones and vehicles.

Otherwise you could argue, that a simple sensor tag on your helmet is enough to provide you with limitless perception, because you "DNI access it".

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I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #10 on: (09:48:38/06-18-15) »
I see your argument.
But even if you grant the bonus dice (as a GM I'd allow it) you are still limited by the sensor rating.
The olfactory booster is not listed with the audio and video enhancements but with the sensor functions.
Also the cited text is from the rigger chapter, but it is not limited to drones and vehicles.

Otherwise you could argue, that a simple sensor tag on your helmet is enough to provide you with limitless perception, because you "DNI access it".

Still wrong even having the exact descriptions pointed out to you... nifty. What part of "works in the same way as Olfactory Booster cyberware" confuses you??? The part where it works just like the Olfactory Booster cyberware or the part where it works just like the Olfactory Booster cyberware? I'm curious...

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #11 on: (09:56:31/06-18-15) »
No need to get aggressive:

It's a sensor, yes?
Sensors are governed by the rules on p.182
That means, their rating applys as limit to perception tests.
Visual and Audio Enhancements are not sensors, their rating is added to your mental limit

The olfactory sensor is not listed in the enhancement table but in the sensor write up, together with other special sensors like millimeter wave, cyberware scanner and weather forecast.

You may get your +2 to the check, but you still are limited by the rating, since there is no exception mentioned and the general rule on sensor functions takes precedence.
talk think matrix

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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #12 on: (11:02:01/06-18-15) »
I'd say there's two ways of reading "works in the same way as the olfactory booster cyberware", neither of them wrong.

1. Cyberware rules take precedence, as this is a special rule that overrides the general rules for sensors
2. Cyberware rules do not take precedence, as the olfactory sensor is still a sensor

Without further information from the book, any argument of the above boils down to interpretation. As always; ask your GM. :D

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #13 on: (11:16:23/06-18-15) »
Well said ;)
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Xenon

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« Reply #14 on: (11:26:03/06-18-15) »
I_AM_ZHOUL!!!, I meant to ask you for awhile now; Why do you keep using "!!!" and "???" in your posts? It give most your posts a very hostile tone.


What part of "works in the same way as Olfactory Booster cyberware" confuses you???

The crunch you are talking about is this sentence:

SR5 p. 452 Olfactory Booster
Add the boosterís rating as a dice pool modifier to your scent-based Perception Tests


You have a solid argument that it will add the boosterís rating as a dice pool modifier to your scent-based Perception Tests, just like the chrome version.

What Jack_Spade is saying is that there are general rules for using a sensor. The Olfactory Scanner is not something you put on your nose, you might as well place it on the back of your hand or in your belt. Its a sensor.

As always in SR5 rules are spread out all over the book. The Olfactory Scanner is described briefly on p. 446 but more in detail on p. 365 and also under Olfactory Booster on p. 452. There are also some rules for them under Gas Delivery Systems on p. 366.


Sensor Rules are unnecessary complex and to be honest it is one part of the rules I'm not fully up to date on; but on p. 445 there is an interesting notation about Sensor Arrays that might or might not be relevant for this topic.

SR5 p. 445 Sensors
When you use the sensor array for Perception Tests, you may use your Electronic Warfare skill in place of your Perception skill, and you may use the sensor's Rating as your limit.

If this does not apply (because we are talking about a single sensor and not a sensor array or what not) then we need to go back to the rules in the combat chapter.

SR5 p. 184 Sensor Attacks
To detect a person, critter, or vehicle with sensors, the character/vehicle must make a successful Sensor Test. Characters roll Perception + Intuition  [Sensor]

Together with:

SR5 p. 452 Olfactory Booster
Add the boosterís rating as a dice pool modifier to your scent-based Perception Tests


To detect explosives or ammunition rather than a person, critter, or vehicle you follow rules on p. 365

SR5 p. 365 Olfactory Scanner
Also known as chemical detector systems or chemsniffers, analyse molecules in the air for nitrogen-rich particles like those given off by explosives or firearm ammunition. To detect explosives or ammunition, roll a dice pool equal to the chemsniffer's rating against a threshold of 2 (3 if the explosives/ammo are hermetically sealed). Apply modifiers as noted on the Chemical Detection Modifiers table.


To detect the difference between a metahuman and an animal or pinpoint gender you use the rules on p. 366

SR5 p. 366 Olfactory Sensor
...In order to pick up a scent, the scanner rolls its Device Rating against a threshold of 3 (2 for characters with tailored pheromone bioware).


It can also be used to detect gas;

SR5 p. 366 Gas Delivery System
...The gamemaster may secretly conduct Perception Tests to see if any characters notice the gas, basing the threshold on how noticeable the gas is (many gases are colorless and odorless). Characters equipped with an Olfactory Scanner (see p. 452) may be alerted by their gear.