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A Question on Cyberlimbs for all you GMs out there. What are your opinions?

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Glyph

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« Reply #15 on: (22:10:21/10-21-14) »
I don't have a problem with cyberlimb armor per se, but I have always assumed that lower arm/lower leg includes the hand/foot.

ZeConster

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« Reply #16 on: (08:28:44/10-22-14) »
Same here - it's basically full arm/leg, half arm/leg, and quarter arm/leg.

MadBear

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« Reply #17 on: (10:05:49/10-22-14) »
I've personally never liked the way cyberlimbs are ruled, so I handle them differently. I put a Rating max on the limb based on size, Rating 1 for Hand/Foot, Rating 2 for Lower Limb, Rating 3 for Full. Can't abuse it if your hand only grants you 1 point of Armor.
I also handle Customization/Enhancement differently. In my game, you are required to pay for customization up to your current stat, AGL, STR, or Armor, for the limb to function correctly. Base price is for AGL 3/ STR 3 arm, which will not work in a body with 6 AGL/9 STR. That includes armor, for Trolls or sammies with Dermal Plating or Bone Lacing. After that you can Enhance the limb. Makes them more expensive, but also allows for a little higher upper end limit.
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« Reply #18 on: (14:38:25/11-25-14) »
My thought on bone lacing and cyber limbs is that if you have 2 cyber limbs bone lacing is only half effective, and 4 limbs means bone lacing is ineffective, due to there being no bones left to lace together. I also am of the opinion that partial limbs include the hand/foot, thus cannot stack. That still gives the character who gets FBR the possibility of 18 armor, if that's what the player wants to do.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #19 on: (14:30:36/11-26-14) »
My thought on bone lacing and cyber limbs is that if you have 2 cyber limbs bone lacing is only half effective, and 4 limbs means bone lacing is ineffective, due to there being no bones left to lace together. I also am of the opinion that partial limbs include the hand/foot, thus cannot stack. That still gives the character who gets FBR the possibility of 18 armor, if that's what the player wants to do.
Would you give them an essence discount then? Because if you only give them half the benefit, charging them the full amount seems unfair. Especially since they pay a LOT of essence for those limbs too.

Also, ribs and spine and pelvis aren't bones?_?
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firebug

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« Reply #20 on: (15:17:49/11-26-14) »
I'm iffy on cyberlimbs.  I think they are cool, but am unsure on how I feel about the rules.

I do allow them to be customized to racial maximum, meaning I let people have a cyberarm with 9 AGI even though their actual agility may be much lower.  I don't allow it to be applied to limits, but since AGI is used in none, that doesn't come up.  I also disallow armor to be put into just a hand or foot.  You need at least lower arm or lower leg.  I do this because I've seen a lot of characters (usually Face or Hacker) who will gladly ditch the opportunity to have a real cyberlimb for a huge boost to armor for a massively decreased essence cost compared to orthoskin, bone lacing, or dermal plating.

And it wouldn't even be munchkining.  If you could get a small, unobtrusive augmentation in the form of a hand that looks real (synthetic is enough capacity at character creation) and protects you that well, it's just an obvious choice!  Also it would still make you do Physical with a punch, but that's a very minor detail.

I do require a full limb for firing a gun or swinging a sword.  I know there's log that it require your entire body, but to me, the whole arm is enough for it to do most of the work.  I also require two full legs if you want their AGI to replace your movement speed.

While it's only moderately expensive to have 9 AGI in a limb (it's about 48,000¥), it's limited almost entirely to one-handed melee weapons, pistols, tasers, and machine pistols or maybe SMGs, I don't mind.  There's a lot more use AGI gives, and being six dice better at firing a one-handed gun is good but not game-breaking.  It has also never made any of the street samurai who've played with these characters feel upset, because they can still run faster and have the skills to use more weapons, and the essence to buy better combat augments.
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Kincaid

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« Reply #21 on: (16:52:25/11-26-14) »
I scale the max amount of armor by limb size: +1/+2/+3, hand(foot)/ half/ full.

From a balance perspective, I've always disliked the Agi 1/Agi 9 (arm) characters.  Adding the Physical Limit makes that somewhat better, but I suspect that option will always be mechanically available and is best solved by talking to your players.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #22 on: (17:00:35/11-26-14) »
I scale the max amount of armor by limb size: +1/+2/+3, hand(foot)/ half/ full.

That's a very elegant solution to the armor issue.  :)
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firebug

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« Reply #23 on: (17:36:36/11-26-14) »
You don't really need to worry about AGI 1 characters with AGI 9 limbs.  They can't be very effective that way.

I mean, movement rate is a big deal, and if they want to use two-handed weapons as well, that pretty much means 4 Essence right there.  While they could end up with 12 extra armor and 9 STR and AGI in each limb (likely only extra STR in the arms), that's a huge investment of essence and money.  It doesn't even leave enough space for Wired Reflexes 1 at Standard.

Since changing the grade of a limb also effects the price of all the upgrades, the cost can begin to become very high for four limbs, and you'll also need to buy other upgrades at a better grade as well to make up for the essence you've spent.  Or use the more expensive bioware, etc...

Hackers will find that much money will bite them in the ass when it comes to more important purchases, and even if they "don't need physical attributes because they don't intend to be in combat", when it inevitably happens, movement to get to cover or just run away will be important (meaning they'll need to buy the legs as well).

Faces might be good with one limb (likely synthetic), but they really can't afford to spend 4 essence to make up for having only 1 point of agility.  And again, this would cut into the money they need for Tailored Pheromones and would leave them without essence or nuyen to spend on initiative enhancers--  A sure-fire way to have them get themselves killed should a social roll go too poorly.

However, the more reasonable option of a single or even two limbs with average AGI works, but as I stated before...  In my experience, that doesn't become unbalancing, though it may seem.
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MadBear

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« Reply #24 on: (18:07:25/11-26-14) »
I scale the max amount of armor by limb size: +1/+2/+3, hand(foot)/ half/ full.

That's a very elegant solution to the armor issue.  :)

I believe I said this very same thing back in Oct...  Kincaid was just a little more clear.
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #25 on: (18:16:44/11-26-14) »
I love the idea of cyberlimbs. Chop off your arm and then get weapons, gyromounts etc. implanted instead. What I hate is the potential for munchkin especially with hands/feet and armor. At my table I've disallowed any armor except for full limbs. Kincaid's solution is a very sound one, however, so I may adapt that instead.

I do wish that limbs could go +4 though. I really can't see a reason why they should not be able to. Potential agi 10/agi 1 characters does not bother me, if that's all they can do. As others have mentioned it's only for one-handed tasks.
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Reaver

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« Reply #26 on: (22:35:50/11-26-14) »
I've had a love/hate thing for cyber limbs for a long while now. I love them for the ambiance they provide the setting... I hate tthem for the munchkin abuses they can bring in (the 1/9 agility, the armor, etc).

I have used house rules in the past....

Removed mods from them...

Banned them except for fluff... (want a metal arm?? ok you got one! same stats as your reg arm...but no money spent)



For 5e I said "WTF, take them as is and see what happens. "

and so far, they haven't been more then an annoyance at best, a detriment to the player at worse..... Yea the extra armor makes them soak more... but big deal, just means they fall down 2 rounds later (or a round earlier in the case of the "tank".... Told you 1 WILL was a bad idea...)

yea the arm with 9 agility makes them shoot that pistol really good.... but does nothing for almost all other tests... or at least tests that require more then your arm....


all said, I feel arms are mostly balanced... well as balanced as a robot limb in a setting that also has dragons and magic can be, especially considering the cash and essence costs.

And really, those 2 things are the biggest parts for the equation of balance (other then the fact that, you know, your are missing a freaking LIMB!). For the cash and the essence costs of a cyber limb, the player could have gotten a whole other piece of ware that could have been equally as good (or several smaller combinations). However, unlike other cyberware, a limb is a freaking large piece of meat to cut out!

Don't want that datajack any more? No problem, the doc can cut it out and stich the wound closed.. in and out in 5 minutes! (ok well not really, but you catch my drift)

Want to replace your wired reflexes with a synaptic booster? Sure, yank out the wired, throw in the SB and away you go! you even have an essence hole for the next upgrade!

Tired of your cyberleg? No problem! just rip that mother off and hop to your next job!!! Now you really do resemble a "Gun Bunny"! (so wear the swimsuit damn it!)


I mean, until Vat grown limbs come back (if they ever do, what with the nano problems), a character that takes a cyber limb is making a final change to their character that they can't walk away from if they end up unhappy with their choice (in the case of a cyber leg, literally!)
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« Reply #27 on: (03:00:55/11-27-14) »
I never really felt like being able to throw 3 armor in a hand or foot while a helmet only gave 2 seemed silly. I think maybe 1 in a hand or foot. 2 at most, but 3 always seemed silly to me.
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« Reply #28 on: (12:54:57/11-27-14) »
I scale the max amount of armor by limb size: +1/+2/+3, hand(foot)/ half/ full.

That's a very elegant solution to the armor issue.  :)

I believe I said this very same thing back in Oct...  Kincaid was just a little more clear.

I wasn't trying to divert credit from whoever said it first, just trying to say the idea was very good.  So you said it first - congrats.  It's still a very good solution to the issue.
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MadBear

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« Reply #29 on: (10:31:48/11-28-14) »
I scale the max amount of armor by limb size: +1/+2/+3, hand(foot)/ half/ full.

That's a very elegant solution to the armor issue.  :)

I believe I said this very same thing back in Oct...  Kincaid was just a little more clear.

I wasn't trying to divert credit from whoever said it first, just trying to say the idea was very good.  So you said it first - congrats.  It's still a very good solution to the issue.

I wasn't upset, i was going for humor. Thread was dead for a month, and suddenly it pops back up with a fresh discussion that includes the limitations I use. Fount that interesting.

I think most of us have issue with munchkining armor in hands/feet. I've never seen a player try though. I do have an Orc combat decker with, for background reasons, two partial limbs and a full, and with the 1/2/3 Armor limit that gives him 7 Armor. Combine that with 1 from Plastic BL and an Armor Jacket and he's rolling 20 dice for Armor alone. He's a scrawny little turd with Bod 5, so he needs that armor. The extra soak die from BL and one more for Toughness and that's 27 dice total for a soak roll, he averages 9 hits, so he's pretty hard to damage.

Point is, even with the limits that have been suggested, it's pretty easy to pile on the armor. A couple of full limbs, Dermal Plating, Titanium BL, and you could have a serious tank. Wouldn't be too hard for a Troll to get up over 35+. It's just more balanced now with cost/essence.
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