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A question of grenades and setting them off

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LionofPerth

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« on: (13:36:54/07-13-14) »
Greetings all

As I've been playing Sniper Elite 3 a bit of late, I've had something of an idea that would allow a clever group or player to deal with foes, assuming they're wearing grenades in sight and unaware, of detonating the grenade at distance.

Now, I'm aware that some explosive ordnance disposal is performed with high calibre weapons, though I do understand the size of the round is there for penetration of outer materials, as well as to ensure that any detonating mechanism for things like artillery shells, car bombs maybe, are pulverised, to put it lightly.

My questions, which I hope someone with some EOD/explosives training can answer, are my above perceptions accurate? If they're not accurate, how so?

Fellow GM's, how would you feel about a player trying to set off a grenade at distance? Would you let it happen? Would you limit it to grenades based on explosives, or could things like stun/concussion/flashbangs also have some effect?

Thanks ahead
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martinchaen

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« Reply #1 on: (13:50:59/07-13-14) »
A sufficiently powerful round can set off some explosives, for sure; a .308 rifle round will more likely than not detonate a standard fragmentation grenade with a direct hit, whereas something like 12ga buckshot fired from sufficiently close proximity will simply destroy the grenade. For other non-grenade ordnance you'd need more specific rules; ANFO (and other tertiary explosives like it) is incredibly stable, for instance, whereas good old fashioned nitroglycerin (and other primary explosives) can be extremely volatile.

I would let a player shoot an exposed grenade with a called shot; would be a difficult one as far as I'm concerned, likely necessitating a -8 dice pool modifier at the very least.
« Last Edit: (13:54:29/07-13-14) by martinchaen »

MijRai

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« Reply #2 on: (14:52:17/07-13-14) »
I would not let a person shoot a grenade, myself.  The problem with doing so is that the case of the grenade is solid steel.  The chances of setting off that explosive with something besides the fuse is pretty unlikely.  They're designed that way, mostly because people carry them round on their person.
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Reaver

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« Reply #3 on: (15:34:25/07-13-14) »
I'm a little of both minds on this, and it has actually come up in our advanced group a few times now...

How we resolve this is as follows:

If the explosive charge is detonated by:  pressure, or heat.
If the barrier rating of the grenade is breeched, it goes boom. Target takes damage from the grenade ONLY,  not the bullet. (This is to comply with SR's "no double dipping damage" rule)

If the barrier is not breeched, the grenade resists damage from the attack as normal, if 3 boxes of damage are done, the explosive is disabled and can not detonate.


If the explosive is detonated by some other means: water, air, electricity, etc...
The best the shooter can hope for is disabling the grenade...

This makes it possible to turn 'naders into a deterrent for groups, as now that 'nader is a possible ground zero for friendly AOE damage (ouch!), as well as giving some of the insanely high rolling gunbunnies a use to make them feel bad-ass (as the modifiers to hit a tiny, moving target, at range, are insanely high)

So far, it has worked well: But remember, "Good for the goose..."
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adzling

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« Reply #4 on: (17:45:44/07-13-14) »
this is total hogwash.
current high-safety modern explosives materiel (and Srun is another 60 years from now) can only be detonated with the right electronic signal.
you can chuck this stuff into an open fire, attach a car battery to it, run it over with a truck, toss it off the empire state building, put a stick of dynamite under it and none if would do anything to it.
if you lucky you might disable it by disrupting it's shape or casing (i.e. blow it to smithereens).

with grenades being carried on the person they should use the most safe and stable explosives.

now if your target is carrying grenades from ww2 (or even some current modern ones) you might get lucky.
Or I guess if the target is carrying some super cheapass grenades made with a lower safety/ class explosive.

ymmv

;-)

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #5 on: (18:05:52/07-13-14) »
this is total hogwash.
current high-safety modern explosives materiel (and Srun is another 60 years from now) can only be detonated with the right electronic signal.
you can chuck this stuff into an open fire, attach a car battery to it, run it over with a truck, toss it off the empire state building, put a stick of dynamite under it and none if would do anything to it.
if you lucky you might disable it by disrupting it's shape or casing (i.e. blow it to smithereens).

with grenades being carried on the person they should use the most safe and stable explosives.

now if your target is carrying grenades from ww2 (or even some current modern ones) you might get lucky.
Or I guess if the target is carrying some super cheapass grenades made with a lower safety/ class explosive.

ymmv

;-)

This.  Although dynamite *will* cause a secondary triggering of the explosives.  That's how explosives work - the intense and instant heat and pressure causes a chain reaction spreading to the rest of the explosive matter.  If that wasn't the case, an electric current wouldn't detonate the whole explosive, just the narrow path it flows into/through.

Granted, otherwise you can cook with the stuff.  I would expect all corporate and military grenades to work like this.

Now, grenades that runners buy on the black market might be made on the street in drug labs or by other home grown arms dealers.  Who knows what those grenades are packed full of.  TNT or Dynamite would be pretty common (they were in WWII), and older grenades may be well past their expiration...

adzling

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« Reply #6 on: (18:12:38/07-13-14) »
thanks for the clarification Jimmy.

FYI this is similar to the old movie "blow up the car by shooting the gas tank" crap.
Although I guess that has little relevance in 2073 due to no gasoline cars in most places.

Mythbusters is you friend for most of these types of questions.

this is total hogwash.
current high-safety modern explosives materiel (and Srun is another 60 years from now) can only be detonated with the right electronic signal.
you can chuck this stuff into an open fire, attach a car battery to it, run it over with a truck, toss it off the empire state building, put a stick of dynamite under it and none if would do anything to it.
if you lucky you might disable it by disrupting it's shape or casing (i.e. blow it to smithereens).

with grenades being carried on the person they should use the most safe and stable explosives.

now if your target is carrying grenades from ww2 (or even some current modern ones) you might get lucky.
Or I guess if the target is carrying some super cheapass grenades made with a lower safety/ class explosive.

ymmv

;-)

This.  Although dynamite *will* cause a secondary triggering of the explosives.  That's how explosives work - the intense and instant heat and pressure causes a chain reaction spreading to the rest of the explosive matter.  If that wasn't the case, an electric current wouldn't detonate the whole explosive, just the narrow path it flows into/through.

Granted, otherwise you can cook with the stuff.  I would expect all corporate and military grenades to work like this.

Now, grenades that runners buy on the black market might be made on the street in drug labs or by other home grown arms dealers.  Who knows what those grenades are packed full of.  TNT or Dynamite would be pretty common (they were in WWII), and older grenades may be well past their expiration...

Ishmell

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« Reply #7 on: (18:25:53/07-13-14) »
If i remember correctly, the Mythbusters did a show on this exact subject. I think the high powered rifle set them off while the buckshot and 45 pistol destroyed it without setting it off.
Majored in mechanics at law school.

adzling

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« Reply #8 on: (18:32:19/07-13-14) »
wrong type of explosive, they used a binary one iirc.
we're talking more like advanced RDX

If i remember correctly, the Mythbusters did a show on this exact subject. I think the high powered rifle set them off while the buckshot and 45 pistol destroyed it without setting it off.

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #9 on: (19:14:27/07-13-14) »
Do we know what kind of batteries SR cars use?  Some designs could totally be explosive, though normal bullets probably wouldn't do the trick.  Still, hit a hydrogen fuel cell with a tracer and you might get some fireworks.

Reaver

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« Reply #10 on: (20:39:41/07-13-14) »
Do we know what kind of batteries SR cars use?  Some designs could totally be explosive, though normal bullets probably wouldn't do the trick.  Still, hit a hydrogen fuel cell with a tracer and you might get some fireworks.

Nope. Hydrogen fuel cells are a solid state device that uses hydrogen to power a catalytic process, turning the cell into a giant discharging diode. They don't cook off, or ignite when exposed fflame. At least the ones Ballard makes today. (I worked with and installed them for the city of Vancouver Metro buses back in 98.)
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Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

martinchaen

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« Reply #11 on: (21:40:00/07-13-14) »
To the naysayers; check your facts before spouting off.

A high-energy round (like a .308 round, which has ballistic energy of over 3500 J at the muzzle) can substitute for the function of the grenade fuse (or primary explosive/detonator, if you prefer) if it penetrates the steel outer shell and impacts the Comp B charge (which is essentially a mix of RDX and TNT, both of which are secondary explosives) of a modern day US hand grenade like the M67.

Keep in mind that a FMJ .308 will penetrate anything from 1/4" to 1/2" thick steel plate at 300m, depending on the type of steel used. There's a reason marksmen use so-called "gongs", 3/8" thick armored steel plates" for target practice at 500m+. The steel case of a hand grenade like the M67, which is designed to fragment and not to stand up to direct hits from a high-power round like a .308, will most likely not be able to stand up to said round if a direct hit is scored, and the resulting energy exchange will more likely than not set off the grenade.

A lower-power round, as mentioned above about Mythbusters and a .45 and 12ga buckshot (I haven't seen this one, does anyone know which episode it is) would more likely than not simply destroy the outer casing without causing the grenade to go off, as they are not energy-rich enough to substitute for the role of the primary explosive.

Now, if we're talking modern compound explosives this changes dramatically because these are what I referred to as tertiary explosives; yes, you can technically shoot a bullet through a brick of C4, but I'd be hella wary to be anywhere near someone deciding to give that a try. Besides, explosives are not usually carried on the outside of a tactical vest like a hand grenade is, so it's more plausible for a grenade to be a target than a brick of explosives.
« Last Edit: (21:43:01/07-13-14) by martinchaen »

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #12 on: (22:05:13/07-13-14) »
To the naysayers; check your facts before spouting off

You are assuming shadowrun grenades are built like modern grenades.  Considering shadowrun firearms are significantly redesigned, I imagine TNT and RDX do not factor into 2075 grenade manufacture. 

Unless you've got a reference you'd like to cite?

martinchaen

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« Reply #13 on: (22:49:22/07-13-14) »
Jimmy Crisis
You'll note that the OP asked this:
Quote from: LionofPerth link=topic=17351.msg306473#msg306473
My questions, which I hope someone with some EOD/explosives training can answer, are my above perceptions accurate? If they're not accurate, how so?
How do you propose someone with ROD experience answer this question if not relating it to real world facts and experiences, so that the OP can make up his own mind about future tech?

If you choose not to relate your answer to the OPs question, what are you even doing here? Anyone can speculate wildly about SR tech, but in this case the OP asked a very specific question, which I chose to answer with facts and my own experiences, rather than wild conjecture and/or speculation.

As if that wasn't enough, you'll also do well to note that while some SR firearms tech has changed, but you'll note that things like ballistic efficiency has not. Sniper rifles still have comparable range, and only assault cannons and other heavy weapons are likely to reliably pierce armored vehicles, and explosives are still deadly. To me, this exemplifies that while we have some new tech, the basics remain the same in general as for modern tech.
« Last Edit: (22:52:47/07-13-14) by martinchaen »

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #14 on: (00:01:01/07-14-14) »
Segregate your answer into real world applicability and 2075 future tech.

We are all speculating wildly about future technology.  Considering that shadowrun technology has evolved separately from our current timeline since at least the year 2000, I would hazard a guess that 75 years of weapons evolution might just throw any modern 'real world' expertise out the goddamn window.

So the question is, what kind of grenades would a corporation issue to HTR teams or local tactical units?