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A beef with some missions: Amount of Pay

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« Reply #75 on: (11:28:31/09-22-10) »
Again, I'm playing my character wrong?

BTW, I have to agree here.

Bull, I think we all understand where you're coming from in regards to playing Missions. We understand that you feel the power levels shouldn't get out of control. But you don't help your case by posting your opinion every time this discussion comes up. If you want to change the feel of the game, you need to change the rules as spelled out in the FAQ. I'm sure you understand that folks want to play the game THEIR way which may or may not match your way. Throwing tons of dice on a test is powerful and fun, and as long as the rules provide for it, people will continue to do it.

As coordinator, you need to develop a balanced FAQ that addresses the issues as you see them. Put your stamp on the feel of the game. People will play or not as they see fit based on those rules. Do you want to be a popular guy with Missions players? Take out most of the restrictions on play, gear, dice, etc. Do you want tables to be filled with runners trying to eke out a living, barely surviving, but all at around the same level as a new guy with a fresh character? Put in restrictions out the wazoo. Whatever the decision, it needs to be DOCUMENTED in the FAQ. It can't be hearsay or postings of opinion on these forums. And by all means, update the FAQ as often as needed to address the concerns. Players have questions now. If you have an answer, document it and make it legal. That's really the only way to settle the questions. (You'll never settle the discussions about whether something is fair or not.)

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #76 on: (11:39:04/09-22-10) »
I agree that the emotitoy should be limited by its sensors, but really, who wants one of those things crawling around on you anyway?



:)



-karma

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« Reply #77 on: (13:09:14/09-22-10) »
 :o

You win teh internets sir! Congratulations!

TranKirsaKali

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« Reply #78 on: (13:13:46/09-22-10) »
Again...  two things..

1)  Not listing a cap is suicidal to game balance, since I've seen a face at a con get something like 17 net hits.

2)  The baseline payments are intended to be decent paydays.  We balance these things so that groups without Face characters don't get screwed.

3)  Extra stuff is outside the scope of Missions.  The more you add, the more complicated it gets, and the more problematic it becomes.

4)  Don;t over specialize.  Again, 5 net hits means, on average, you were throwing 15 more dice than the Johnson.  Yes, exceptions happen.  But still.  5 Net hits is a freaking lot of net hits.  If this isn;t enough for you, then obviously the Johnsons aren't good enough at their job.  Rating 10 Emotitoys, Tailored Pheremones, a social adept, and hey, I can start giving the Johnsons street cred scores as well, if necessary.

5)  If 5 net hits aren't enough pay for you.  Walk away from the run.  <shrug>

6)  Likewise, shadowrunners are disposable assets.  If you demand too much, Mr. Johnson can always walk away as well.  The city is full of shadowrunners eager to take on jobs.  

7)  the other option is I can not limit net hits...  But make the bonus for net hits negligible.  Your pay is 8,000, plus 50 per net hit.  

8 )  Don't over specialize.  If you find that you're capping your hits every time?  It's time to start putting points in other things.

<shrug>

This is a topic that's been discussed to death, and I'm sorry, but there's not going to be more to it than this.  It won't necessarily always be 5 hits.  Sometimes they will offer additional incentives beyond pure cash.  But not always.

Bull

1.  I still think not capping the character but just what the budget is for the Johnson is best.  To be honest, I do not want to know how many hits over the Johnson I got.  That takes the role playing out of the game for me.  And when I am told I got 10 hits over the Johnson and just can't get any more money of of him is when I try for other stuff.  If I am told no then I go with it.  If I am told yes, well hey it is a bonus.  Sorry Midnight I can only pay you XXX I do not have anymore than that would be just fine.  

2. I disagree that the payments are good.  If they were we would not have felt the need to loot anything and everything of value not nailed down.

3.  Let this be GM purview and character role play.  In other words, if the Face can come up with something reasonable as an extra incentive and the Johnson feels they can provide it cool.  If the Face over shoots then the Johnson says no.

4.  I agree with not overspecializing.  I tend to create the focus of my character as high as I can while still adding in things like pistols, infiltration and perception.  Those skills tend to be low.  Mainly because I plan on those being the first that get increased.  That way my character is good at what she wants to be from the get go and has character development as she gains in karma.  There is rounding but rough edges are their to be smoothed out.  

5.  People do not want to just walk away from the run.  They paid to play.  Most of the time once the game has started you can not get your money back.  And at 6 dollars or more a game, people do not want to just throw that money away.

6. Yes and no.  I agree with the you get what you pay for.  My characters assume you came to them for their specific skill set or the fact that you have heard about the team and want what we've got.  So we should get paid as close to what we are worth as we can be.

7. Just remember, when runners feel they aren't getting paid enough, And the qualifier is can I retire in comfort before I die doing this, then they will loot and pillage their way through the run. To get the money they want for gear and to live comfortably.

8.  Just a repetition of 4


As for the emoti toys and software, if the Johnson knows the runner is using it, I think they should get a bonus of some kind.  I mean really, If I am running around with a very popular toy on my shoulder that is highly recognizable, why shouldn't the Johnson either get the opportunity to turn on his own software or try to fool the toy?  This is why I have the software not the toy. No need to throw it in someones face.  But if it replaces my skill. . .  Well then I am not hard capped like I thought.  Just give me a little more time.

Bull

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« Reply #79 on: (15:13:27/09-22-10) »
1) Writers should be using table rating to give Mr Johnson the same toys the runners have (if my table brings a talented face, Mr. Johnson is going to get TR rating emo soft added to his gear)

They should.  To a degree.  The thing to keep in mind is that we have to write for ALL groups.  And I've GMed for and play with enough groups that either didn't have a face at all, or didn't have a "Pornomancer" taht was totally tricked out.  And these groups would be at a massive disadvantage we always tricked out Johnsons.  

At the end of the day, limited successes is a balancing factor for this reason...
 
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2) The baseline for pay is a total joke in season 3, only made better by use of TR.

I almost always played at TR 6, so I never noticed.  Though even at TR 6, some missions pay was ridiculous (Burning Bridges comes to mind).  But, it can be argued that you working in a corp Enclave.  They controlled the jobs, they controlled the money, and thus they controlled the pay rates.

Seattle is a different bag of tricks, and is a different setting and theme.  Pay rates will be higher, on average.  

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3) A simple side box written in the mod listing options for extra success.

This is a giant pain in the ass for writers, trying to come up with interesting things to list for every module.  Plus, what happens when Mr. Johnson can offer up, say, a Beta Cyberarm to a team made of nothing but Adepts and Mages?  This is the same problem that New York's affiliation awards had.  Random Loot sucks.  It's complicated, it's cumbersome, and it's more work than we need to do.

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4) So I'm not playing my character right?

Nope.  There is never a way to play you're character wrong  But realize you're limiting yourself.  You're better off spreading yourself out a little more, after a certain point.  

I'm telling you flat out that in the future (and at the present), you're capped at successes.  If this limit kills the fun of your character and you feel it's not worth playing him anymore, then that's up to you.

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5) I have to take my character off the table because he's not being paid what he's worth?  I dont mind hits being capped, a sam can only kill a guy with the same bullet so hard.  My issue is that the value of those successes needs to be looked at.

ANd I'm telling you that it's perfectly reasonable and perfectly fair.  You walk into a job interview in real life, they tell you what the job pays, and you think you're worth more, does that mean they have to pay you that?  No.  Same goes for Mr. Johnson.  

I've told you that out of character, it's a balance issue.  We limit how much karma you can get, we limit how much money you can get, so that two missions in, you're not sitting on a ton of cash and karma.  If you've played 5 missions and another player has played the same 5 missions with a different group, the two characters should be at relatively similar karma and money scales.  They won;t be identical, and the smarter player with the better face on their team will have an advantage, but it won't be overwhelming.

#5 here, that was my "In Character" rationale to go with the out of character.  There's a point in any adventure where you have to make the decision...  Is this worth it to my character?  And more importantly, is this worth it to me as a player?  Do I really want to play this adventure?  Sometimes, the answer may be no, and at which point you walk away.  If the adventure is an assassination job, you can;t negotiate a different mission.  it is what it is.  That's the nature of Missions.  YOu're signing up to play the game as it is.  There's a limit to what a living campaign can do.

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6) You get what you pay for.

See above.  And you pay what it's worth to you too.

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7) I'm not sure I'm really against this, if I'm gonna get paid crap anyway, I might as well be able to get as much crap as possible.

WHat's more worth while.  500 per hit, capped at 5, or 50 per hit, with no cap?  THat's what I'm talking about.  

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8) Again, I'm playing my character wrong?

Again, see above.

This is my last reply on the subject.  If you're not happy with the situation, make a different character for Season 4.  You'll have the opportunity to transfer Karma over as well and rebuild your character, so maybe retweak his stats and skills a little.  The caps stay in place.

Like I said above, if you're regularly getting 6+ net hits, then honestly, we're doing something wrong as writers.  Because on average, that's 18 dice above what the GM is rolling.  And Mr. Johnson should always be rolling at least 10 dice.

Bull

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« Reply #80 on: (15:15:38/09-22-10) »
Whatever the decision, it needs to be DOCUMENTED in the FAQ.

That's one of my many projects this week, updating the FAQ.  And it will be in there.

Bull

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« Reply #81 on: (15:59:06/09-22-10) »
ANd I'm telling you that it's perfectly reasonable and perfectly fair.  You walk into a job interview in real life, they tell you what the job pays, and you think you're worth more, does that mean they have to pay you that?  No.  Same goes for Mr. Johnson.

If you walk into a job interview and then negotiate your pay higher based on your years of experience and other considerations, that's just part of being a good negotiator.  That's why my brother hired a headhunter to find him his current job -- so the headhunter would not only find him the job, but also negotiate a substantial pay increase.

If on the other hand, they tell you what the job pays and you demand more money for no specific reason, then they are perfectly within their rights to tell you "Thanks for your interest, but we'll be going with someone else". 

Skilled negotiators know not only how to use their skills, but when it's appropriate.  If I am a Face and part of a skilled shadow team with impressive amounts of Street Cred and experience, and the J is offering me a pittance for the use of my skills, and this being Shadowrun (and thus a setting where it's almost accepted that you will negotiate with your Johnson), I'm going to have to ask for more money.  If the Johnson can't pay, I'm going to have to ask whether the 'run is worth my team's time or not.

And that's the rub.  If pay is going to be crap, then I would see no reason to go on the job.  You'll have people walking away from the job, and thus walking away from Missions, simply because you aren't offering enough money to compensate them for their time.

And there are characters out there that have the skills that the J wants.  But the J has to be able to afford them.  Which is the J, and thus the corporation, going to want?  Is he going to want a mediocre team that may-or-may-not be able to get the corp the inside scoop on their competitor's assets?  Or is he going to want the team that has the skills, the gear and the cojones to pull it off, all without ever letting the competitor even know they were there?  In Shadowrun, you get what you pay for.

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Chance359

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« Reply #82 on: (17:18:50/09-22-10) »
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And that's the rub.  If pay is going to be crap, then I would see no reason to go on the job.  You'll have people walking away from the job, and thus walking away from Missions, simply because you aren't offering enough money to compensate them for their time.

I admit I've played some missions simply to help my team out, (which is ironic since they all think my character is a backstabbing, money grubbing SOB).  I held to the attitude that if I was there helping out my friends play the game, then it was worth my time to sit through a mod I didn't like. 

This changed when Firestorm came along.  After a well written opening Mr. Johnson proceeds to offer far less then he would have spent on the meal he served during the meeting.  At this point my hacker stood up apologized to the rest of the team, told the Johnson to get bent, paid for his own meal, and walked out.  I've refused to accept a log sheet for the run, I even offered my GM to take a point of notoriety for my actions.  So Bull you're right, I did walk away when it wasn't worth my characters time, where I take the hit is that I don't have any option to recoup anything for it.

Caine Hazen

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« Reply #83 on: (17:35:10/09-22-10) »
Firestorm was a balance act...  it had 2 seperate negotiations so the Dev at the tim decided to lower the payola.  At TR4 it was relativly easy to walk away with 12K/per nuyen, but you would have had to make it to the 2nd negotiation.  It was also an attempt at having TR help determine payout... whic also didn't quite work out for yo it seems.  Looking over the original draft, the payout for TR4 was 25K/per average.  I rather liked that number, but it might have been a bit overbearing the way it was set up, a TR 6 in the same adventure probably averages 19K/per for the adventure.
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Bull

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« Reply #84 on: (19:36:32/09-22-10) »
One other thing to keep in mind when making characters for Missions is Expectations.  There are active threads here and on Dumpshock about how much runners should get paid, and that's a topic that's been around for as long as I've been active in the SR ONline community (Going back to 1996 now).  There's never been a solid answer for it, either.  The fact is, Shadowrun scales up adn down fairly well, and it's usually up to the GM to tailor the game and pay to what he and the players want.

Missions, on the other hand, doesn't really have that luxury.  Some players and GMs condier 5K a run pretty decent.  You can do 4 runs a month, which means you pay for a Middle lifestyle and net 15K, minus expenses.  Other players think 10K a mission is way too little, because they're maintaining a high lifestyle and wanting to buy Beta Move By Wire 3.  I've heard complaints from players about "only" making 20K for a job before.

So managing your expectations is important, figuring out where the baseline for the game is.  I'll be upfront...  For Season 4, my planned baseline (And this may change) is 10K a run.  That's the average payout, for an average difficulty adventure.  Some runs might be less, if they're less difficult or involved, some might be more.  If the runners are asked to do something crazystupid that's going to piss off a lot of people and give them a lot of public awareness, then the pay will be a lot higher.  As I've said before, Burning Bridges left a pretty bad taste in my mouth, because it's a very hard mission at Table Rating 6, and we still netted less than 10,000.  And I've earned more than that for waaaay easier jobs in Missions.

This is also something that I plan to go over in the FAQ a little bit.  When i have the time to catch up on everything. 

Bull

A.A. Salati

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« Reply #85 on: (22:29:26/09-22-10) »
There are really two issues here, and I would like to separate them.

1) People have a problem with Missions pay.

2) Some people want faces to get unlimited negotiation results, because they have a huge dice pool.

Issue 1 I'm on your side.  Some runs should pay moderately, but every once in a while you should hit the big score.  That's what you're in this for, right?  As players sure, we want to have fun and do a Shadowrun, but in character?  Show me the money!  I want you to get paid.  I want you to score.  I'm going to side with you in Season 4 and do what I am able to make sure this isn't a complaint anymore.

Issue 2 is sour for me.  It is the min/max undermining of what is supposed to be roleplaying.  Shadowrun gives you some mechanics to help resolve it, but the complaint about how those mechanics are usually set up in Missions is disheartening and distasteful.  Here's what seems to be the expectation:

* The Johnson meets us and makes a lowball offer.  * The Face rolls negotation.  * This Face power increases our pay.  * We do the Mission and get paid.

This is NOT Shadowrun.  This is a formula people are using to reduce the beginning of the game to a mechanic like an attack roll, dodge roll, and damage resistance test.  I get that good negotiators are able to get more because they're slick and experienced, and that's definitely a cool part of the game.  I love playing a Face!  But please acknowledge that the reality of a job is that somebody, represented by the Johnson, wants to accomplish something that will usually net them more than the cost of the job.  You can't exceed this dynamic without violating the reality of negotiation, and that is:  No matter how good you are at it, negotiating is the process of two parties making a mutually beneficial agreement.  There is a limit to what each party can concede before the agreement is no longer beneficial to them.

I totally get that Missions pay has been wonky, and I will even go so far as to say in my opinion too low.  However, I think that is the root cause of discontent, not the negotiation success cap.  The pay we're agreeing to work on, but everything in Shadowrun has limits on success.  I think that's a good thing.  Take Missions for what it is.  It's a living campaign that's trying to accommodate everyone so that each of us can play with lots of other runners.  It has difficulties, and it will always have difficulties because of what it is, but at the end of the day, we all want to sit around a table together and roleplay in this incredible setting.
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