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A beef with some missions: Amount of Pay

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #30 on: (11:15:18/09-18-10) »
Yeah, combat and investigation tends to have binary results. Dead/not dead, success/fail.

Negotiation has degrees of success.

You can't necessarily compare the two.




-karma

player of a 20+ social die pool character


Actually it is fairly similar if I only have $50 I can't pay you $75.  Negotiations  It is variable anywhere beneath the $50 down to $0 and variable up to $75.  Just like in combat I can take 0 boxes of damage of anywhere up to the point where I die. 

Since a lot of other things are based on table/team rating ideas I'd just vary the negotiators skill with the table.  Something like -3 dice of lead PCs negotiators skill cap at 15 dice+1 per team rating.  Yeah variable skills kind of suck on the logic level of things, but I don't think it is great to punish people for not being min max monstrosities.  Something like this allows for the adventure to give a challenge for the normal range of the expected skill, but if someone ants to be the negotiating god they exceed the cap by enough they still blow him out of the water.  It isn't perfect, but it gives a bit of normalization to random groups at a con, where maybe the negotiator player did not make it this con.  It is effectively what a GM would do at a home game, he'd know the players stats and build the challenges with that in mind. 

Bull

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« Reply #31 on: (12:26:17/09-18-10) »
Well, to a degree you can.  Mr Johnson answers to someone higher than him, usually, and he has a budget.  And rememebr, at the end of the day, there are always other teams of runners out there who want your job. :)

Bull

TranKirsaKali

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« Reply #32 on: (13:44:51/09-18-10) »
Just thought I'd chime in here. Even thought it would be a detrement to me as a player, I've Always liked the idea the the johnson just has "This" much cash for a job. No matter if one guy does the job for all the pay or you round up a gang of fifty and get bus fare. The one guy will have to work his hoop of for every cent of that cash and prolly come close to being dead, but the gang of fifty will roll the job in a half hour....
I just look at it as a juggleing game Safety or money, which do you want?
That's how I tend to run it in games I GM, too (and like you said, it's what makes sense from Mr. Jay's point of view)...but for something like Missions, you've got to try and be a little more fair about it, or "above the board," or whatever.  A flat "per person" method of payment is probably the best way to handle it, in an official shared universe thing, being run at cons, etc, etc.

Yes, DarkLloyd is with the group you are thinking of.  And yes we take everything that is not nailed down that has a decent profit level.  The more expensive the better due to the 10% of cost thing.  The only reason he did not get away with a doc wagon high threat chopper is the GM basically told him no the doc wagon team picked up the chopper.

I think this year we made off with a seimi rig, bull dog step van, or 2 not sure many suites of high end armor, ect.

And I am sorry I did not get to run with you Evil says you were fun.

TranKirsaKali

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« Reply #33 on: (13:47:15/09-18-10) »
What ever you do keep a limit on how many success count in negoations for that money heh I know people that can an will get 10+ success.
Cas, I have no idea who you are talking about. .  . . .

How could anyone ever do that?   :o  ;)

TranKirsaKali

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« Reply #34 on: (13:52:36/09-18-10) »

Instead of just a flat 5 net success max, I'd like to suggest something a little more enticing.  Before just "complaining" about the money / adventure I was doing some research into other published runs (on the run, Dawn of the Artifacts, Denver Missions, etc.) and really liked the mechanic of "For every net hit you can do one of the following:
1) Raise the pay by X (be it a percentage or a flat increment.
2) Increase the up front portion of the pay to cover expenditures
3) Have the Johnson provide something needed (asked to blow up a building, johnson provides some explosives)
4) Johnson provides information they might otherwise be reluctant to give up initially (A helpful contact info, pictures / video footage, whatever.)

#'s 1 and 2 should probably always be an option.  3 and 4 are more situational based on who the Johnson is, how much they know, and what they are capable of.  
The Denver mission where negotiation hits let you get access to gear over availability 12 per hit is a pretty nice perk and would like seeing more things like that.  


Actually I have seen GM's do this with missions to a degree.  When I have overwhelmed the poor Johnson with massive successes, and the poor GM says I am sorry you have way over capped the money I can give you.  I have asked for things like free trips to the Horizon clinic when they were needed ect.  And for the most part have either been given them or had a counter offer given.  I think it is a good thing when people think and move with the situation.

TranKirsaKali

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« Reply #35 on: (14:04:43/09-18-10) »
deleted because I re read and decided not to say what I was going to say.
« Last Edit: (14:07:28/09-18-10) by TranKirsaKali »

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #36 on: (14:14:02/09-18-10) »
I think this year we made off with a seimi rig, bull dog step van, or 2 not sure many suites of high end armor, ect.

I had one table where we had an opportunity to make off with an entire fleet of Bulldog Step-Vans.

Only we tripped the mission's "OMG We Are So Screwed" event right after that and had to run. So I had to set off the satchel charges we had stuck in the area as a distraction so we could get away.

I has a sad about that. So many pretty pretty vans...



-karma

DarkLloyd

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« Reply #37 on: (14:18:27/09-18-10) »
Uhm, well i'm gonna chime in here.

     First, Shinobi I'm gonna assume you Don't work in corprate high finance.
"Actually it is fairly similar if I only have $50 I can't pay you $75". Well the $50 is what the J was Given as a budget. That's not to say he can't call up to his superiors and tell then he has found assets that exceeded his (and their) expectations but also demand more than expected. I've found when a company needs Specialized help that they can't manage to weasl a company man into doing, they pay out the nose. Throwing cash at it is how corps take care of problems. In SR and the real world.

     Now as to limiting "insane" faces, not that I'd want to to begin with, (We don't limit the number of sucsesses a sammie cam get when he shoots some one, whether those hits are neccesary or not we give them to him) I propose useing the table rating as a threshold to the negotiations test. take yer faces hits subtract the table rating and then compare sucsesses.
Easy fix that slows down but not kanks faces.
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #38 on: (15:00:29/09-18-10) »
Now as to limiting "insane" faces, not that I'd want to to begin with, (We don't limit the number of sucsesses a sammie cam get when he shoots some one, whether those hits are neccesary or not we give them to him)

Again, sammies have a problem that their measure of success is succeed/fail. Face characters have degrees of success. It's not a good example comparing the two. Sammies would be dramatically affected, much worse, than any Face by limiting their successes.

I propose useing the table rating as a threshold to the negotiations test. take yer faces hits subtract the table rating and then compare sucsesses.
Easy fix that slows down but not kanks faces.

This already happens to some degree. Table rating adds to the Johnson's Negotiate dice. Which can negate the player character's hits.

I personally like the idea of specifically allowing non-pay options for extra successes. More money up front, expenses being covered, etc.


-karma

Wasabi

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« Reply #39 on: (15:35:26/09-18-10) »
It's not a good example comparing the two. Sammies would be dramatically affected, much worse, than any Face by limiting their successes.

KarmaInferno,I like your suggestion about nonmonetary benefit past the 5 hit cap.

Not just to KarmaInferno:
As to the two being different think in terms of time.

The Sammie's fight a third to half of the session.
The Face gets to negotiate 1-3 times on average... once on pay, once on gathering info, and once after 'the turn'.

Despite the lack of spotlight-time someone intent on doing a Prime Runner face knowstheir massive dicepool will only matter for sure during the payout test, buying of gear, and maybe 1-2 other tests. The sammies will almost always get mileage in a given mission.

Tocap the face's one guaranteed spotlight-moment is take away a large portion of their fun.

The numerical comparison may not match but let them shine when its their time to shine in some fashion. Monetarily, non-monetarily, whichever, but let their skills show how awesome they are during their few moments to shine. To cap their one guaranteed time to shine is to relegate face-ness to a secondary role which may not be what the PC envisions.
« Last Edit: (15:37:25/09-18-10) by Wasabi »
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Caine Hazen

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« Reply #40 on: (19:16:01/09-18-10) »
In the end, faces just have to eat it on this I think... sooner or later you reach the limit on what 1 indiviual can get you no matter how many hits you get.  If the Corp authorizes 4500 nuyen caps, then its all the Johnson or fixer has to go with.  Promising past that is just making the stupidity of taking a pornomancer to the next level by rewarding it.  You got 12 hits, here's your max offer... don't like; well take your game on the road!

Also on the ease of the game; this means it makes it easier on the writer.  If the writer has to think of adding too many things to the script, they lose wordcount that can be used elsewhere to make a more interesting adventure.  For the GMs, having 1 simple line (like the johnson opens with 3500 as an offer + 200 per hit) saves the GM from having to worry about anything other than those 5 hits you might net.

On the flip side, I think the Johnsons and Fixers need to be pimp this season.  I wanna watch when the GM gets to tell you... "ohhh... 10 hits, I'm sorry, I rolled 12. Wanna do it from the asking price?"  Then again, I have a pornomancer in a missions group I'm in, and she just serves as a dead weight.  So my opinion might be colored :D
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #41 on: (20:13:04/09-19-10) »
Uhm, well i'm gonna chime in here.

     First, Shinobi I'm gonna assume you Don't work in corprate high finance.
"Actually it is fairly similar if I only have $50 I can't pay you $75". Well the $50 is what the J was Given as a budget. That's not to say he can't call up to his superiors and tell then he has found assets that exceeded his (and their) expectations but also demand more than expected. I've found when a company needs Specialized help that they can't manage to weasl a company man into doing, they pay out the nose. Throwing cash at it is how corps take care of problems. In SR and the real world.

     Now as to limiting "insane" faces, not that I'd want to to begin with, (We don't limit the number of sucsesses a sammie cam get when he shoots some one, whether those hits are neccesary or not we give them to him) I propose useing the table rating as a threshold to the negotiations test. take yer faces hits subtract the table rating and then compare sucsesses.
Easy fix that slows down but not kanks faces.

Yeah sure if he isn't working off the books, if he has his bosses ear, if the expected returns on the run justify going higher than what his mission budget is, if there are no other runners, if the run isn't against his boss as a ploy for advancement etc..  You don't think run guidelines might take some of this into account?  If the run says max pay X, that is the max he can get either through calling his boss or operational expense or whatever you want to call it.  I am going to assume you don't work in corporate high finance if you think people have access to unlimited sums of money for a operation, there are limits where you just wont get any more money for your project.  While budgets exist and yes you can make calls/pleas/reports that request more money for a project, there are always limits too how much they will put into your project.  Just like if the Johnson gets 50 extra hits then the party they does not start paying him to do the job there does come a point where the Johnson says sorry no I'll hire someone else, or the runners say sorry no I wont take the job.  There are caps on how much the johnson can and or will pay and there are caps on what the runners can or will work for. 

While I have no desire to limit insane faces, there are practical limits to a variety of tasks.  There comes a point in everything including a Sams capabilities where extra successes don't do anything more.  My larger concern for a con adventure is making sure a team doesn't get hosed because one roll is missing.  I don't want to see them working for a sandwich and a pack of cigarettes because no face is at the table today.  Sort of like how I don't think you want a con adventure that can only be resolved is you have a dedicated decker on the team.

Bull

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« Reply #42 on: (00:15:46/09-20-10) »
At the end of the day, there's a balance that needs to be maintained.  That's one problem Missions has had up to this point, a lack of balance.  In the rewards, in the pay scales, etc.  So Faces need to have some limits on them, from a game balance standpoint. 

It's not really that fair if my dumb as a stump ork sammy plays three missions with a tricked out Pornomancer and earns an extra 20K per adventure just because someone else happened to be able to throw 20+ exploding dice.  Then I go to another game, and play with another Sammy who played the exact same three games, but didn't get all that extra cash.  Even though we've played the same amount, I've got a huge edge on my fellow Samurai through no ability of my own. 

Keep in mind that extra successes on negotiation tests aren't a right.  They're a privilege.  And new characters may want to think about branching out and being more than one trick ponies.  There will be solid caps to negotiate tests.

Bull

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #43 on: (00:24:29/09-20-10) »
And new characters may want to think about branching out and being more than one trick ponies.

Being able to throw fistfuls of dice at infiltration tests, combat tests AND social test counts, right?

 ;D



-karma

TranKirsaKali

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« Reply #44 on: (00:29:17/09-20-10) »
On the flip side, I think the Johnsons and Fixers need to be pimp this season.  I wanna watch when the GM gets to tell you... "ohhh... 10 hits, I'm sorry, I rolled 12. Wanna do it from the asking price?"  Then again, I have a pornomancer in a missions group I'm in, and she just serves as a dead weight.  So my opinion might be colored :D

I think your term of pornomancer lets us ,or at least me,know you do not have much use for face characters.  I am sorry you ran with a bad one but do not paint all of us with that brush.  I know I would not want to run a job with out a good face.  And just because you have a good dice pool doesn't mean you are a good face.  Role playing is a key part of it.  My Face does her job for the team in getting us money and information.  And in the fighting can keep up.  If you can not create a rounded character that is your problem.  No face I have ever played with or I have played expected an unlimited amount of money to be squeezed from a Johnson.  But rewarding a well built character is a good thing.  No matter what type of character it is.  And as for the GM's having to think. . .   I do not believe that a single GM I have run with has ever expected to not have to think.  You will always have to be able to go with the flow of the team you are dealing with as a GM.  They may throw decent curve balls at you.  I know the people I run with love to throw a good curve ball.  Creativity in my opinion is a must with a good GM.