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Adjustable strength bows

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ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #30 on: (15:10:00/01-31-14) »
The first thing I find myself asking is "Does this damage the game?"

To which comes another question: Are bows currently overpowered, and/or will this overpower them?

No, and no.

So I go to the second question: Will this make bows better to use?

Yes, it will.

I support the smartgun link thing or wireless bonus or what have you that would allow bows to adjust "themselves."  I mean, let's all quietly admit that this would do absolutely nothing to make bows in any way "supreme" over guns, which seems to be the typical fear.

raleel

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« Reply #31 on: (16:27:50/01-31-14) »
I like it as a feature of a "smartbow" system, actually. Bows don't really get many of the "flavor" benefits (ammo counting, heat build up, material stress, changing modes, ejecting a clip, firing without pulling a trigger), and some of those even have some mechanical action involved. This would be a nice one to add in. And lets face it, it's at most only going to happen about twice a fight (once when you use attribute boost, another time if you happen to use it again)

It would probably have to be on a compound bow, although one could envision a metal that gained stiffness as an electrical charge was applied.

Beaumis

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« Reply #32 on: (08:14:12/02-01-14) »
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Counterpoint: there's two Strength skills.  Two.  Somehow I doubt it was intended for Boost Strength to be a drain granting, crappier version of the improved skill power.
It may or may not be their intention for Attribute Boost Strength to be crappy, but given that the text first states that it increases attribute rating and then specifically excludes anything that is not a dice pool makes it pretty clear that their intention was just that, to exclude everything that is not a dicepool.

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a human cannot get strength 10 with "relative ease," because that costs a lot or resources.  It is in fact the literal opposite of "with relative ease." If you're an adept, you essentially cannot get strength 10 at all - which is stupid as hell, because adepts were always the "melee kung fu" dudes, and now they suck at it.
Muscle Augmentation 4 costs 0.8 essence and 124000. Availability is pretty high, but you could get them used to make that a little easier. You can get rating 3 used ones at chargen and combine that with the adept power for +4. There are no rules that exclude adepts from augmentations. There is a tradeoff and the expenditure of resources, certainly, but overall, strength and agility are the easiest stats to raise (Ignoring the Increase Attribute line of spells which make all stats equal, but have their own problems to keep running). Some stats have caps lower than +4 because there is no 'ware for them. For strength, there are 3 different means (Muscle Augmentation, Muscle Replacement and Cyberlimbs) along with a fourth that can be combined with the former (Suprathyroid Gland). Try to find something that augments intuition.

To show you just how easy it is to be awesome at meele:
At Chargen (Resources C)
Used Muscle Augmentation 3: 0,75 Essence, 69.750 NuYen
Bone Density Augmentation 3: 0,9 Essense, 15.000 NuYen

+3 Strength and +2 Unarmed Damage. Combine with 6 Strength for 11P without any other bonuses. Adept with A Attributes, B Skills, C Resources, D Magic and E Race has Magic 3. Enough for Inc. Reflexes 2 and Critical Strike fpr 12P. That's an assault rifle strength punch right out of the gate with some Essence left for cybereyes and some money left for Qi Foci. He can improve his meele damage by 2 points with money without loosing any more magic with standart 'ware. Especially Bone Density Augmentation is dirt cheap. (50.000 for deltaware... .)

So how exactly is it hard or impossible to get 10 strength or build decent adepts? And before you go "but it's ware", that was *always* the case in Shadowrun. Magic alone has always been beaten by 'ware + magic except for the very very high end.

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Also I'm not sure you can really say strength is the only skill that "double dips."
It certainly isn't, but providing a direct damage increase is quite something else than movement isn't it? You are right though, it isn't the only one. I was wrong there.

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So not only is Strength not the only one that double dips, it is, along with charisma, one of two stats that most runners will never use, ever.
I don't know what kind of games you play in, but at my table, Charisma is a stat that is used more than any other. Most stats come into play one way or another in combat, but charisma comes into play in every single social interaction. My games have a lot more of that than they do have combat.
Strength is used pretty often too. Either passively as carrying capacity and the biggest factor in the physical limit or to break down doors, jump throgh windows, intimidation games etc.

Just because you do not roll a stat doesn't mean its not in play. In fact, in my experience, the lower the stat, the more often you roll it simply because the GM is not confident in your ability to perform a certain task.

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...In fact I'm pretty sure almost everything you said is the opposite of reality.
...

JackVII

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« Reply #33 on: (08:32:59/02-01-14) »
Just from my perspective, I'm still not entirely certain what the problem is with having someone who has invested a decent amount of their resources in order to be able to punch as hard as an AR. I mean, it only takes Resources E to be able to shoot as hard as an AR and melee tends to be worse in general (you have to get there, there are more opportunities to defend oneself, it's a complex action to apply damage one time, etc). The only possible advantage that I see is the lack of an obvious weapon.

ETA: Sorry, I just realized this was wildly off-topic.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #34 on: (11:50:26/02-01-14) »
Beaumis: Attribute Boost is NOT clear about its intent. It provides both a list of what it supports and a list of what it doesn't support, and melee damage fits in neither of the two. Whether the intent is an inclusive or exclusive list isn't clear.
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raleel

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« Reply #35 on: (15:22:21/02-01-14) »
Everyone is free to do it however they like in their game I suppose.

For our game, muscle aug really wasn't an option, being extremely low resources and off priorities. GM and I chatted about it, and just asked the simple question "would you take critical strike over attribute boost if it affected damage?" Short if it is that I (in my probably somewhat naive view) couldn't think of a reason why I would take critical strike over 2 points of attribute boost. Heck, not even sure about over 1 point.  Simple action, minimum 2 rounds of you get a boost.  For me I was fairly guaranteed +2 for 4 rounds for drain that I could handle all day. Plenty of potential to get 3 or 4 points for the same drain. It affected more weapons, affected some ranged. It just seemed like compared to the other stuff there, it was too much.

That doesn't mean it was a good comparison, but it was the one available ;)

JackVII

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« Reply #36 on: (15:35:33/02-01-14) »
Simple action, minimum 2 rounds of you get a boost.  For me I was fairly guaranteed +2 for 4 rounds for drain that I could handle all day. Plenty of potential to get 3 or 4 points for the same drain. It affected more weapons, affected some ranged. It just seemed like compared to the other stuff there, it was too much.
A lot of it depends on your Magic Rating and the level of Attribute Boost. Sure, if you have a swanky Magic rating, no problem, but if you're only rocking a Magic of 4, it isn't inconceivable to not roll any hits. I've typically seen it ruled that you still take drain even if you fail to get the boost.

Considering the issues with Critical Strike/Archetypes still in need of errata (like archetypes and examples having characters taking multiple ranks) it's possible they weren't even sure what they were balancing around...

So basically, reliability and action economy versus potentially awesome. I would imagine if Attribute Boost did improve damage, most melee adepts would take both.
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raleel

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« Reply #37 on: (17:17:58/02-01-14) »
Well certainly it depends on it. However, your  magic of 4 with 1 point in attribute boost only has a 13% chance of getting no successes, and 2/3 chance of getting 1 or 2.  Not inconceivable, to be sure, but those are some mighty good odds.  And yes, of course you still take the single point of drain ;) or wait, resist it. Pretty well guaranteed.

In my case, my adept has a 5 magic, so a bit better but not overly so.

It's not massive to be sure, but it is nice.  And even at relatively low magics it's quite reliable.  And yes, I am sure they would take both. They would take enough attribute boost to match 1/4 of their drain roll and then take critical strike.

Beaumis

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« Reply #38 on: (20:39:52/02-01-14) »
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Beaumis: Attribute Boost is NOT clear about its intent. It provides both a list of what it supports and a list of what it doesn't support, and melee damage fits in neither of the two. Whether the intent is an inclusive or exclusive list isn't clear.
I was going to say I see your point, but then I reread the passage and I have to say, I don't. I do not see two lists. I see a broad statement of what the power does (increase attribute rating), a limitation (up to the augmented maximum) another limitation (only affects dice pools) and a statement that two derived attributes do not change.

This is a lot clearer than some other contested rules are. It states outright that it only affects dice pools. No matter which way you cut it, damage is not a dice pool.

Without precedence for an exclusion in the rule, there is no reason to assume anything not listed would be treated differently than the two things that are.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #39 on: (22:47:50/02-01-14) »
Muscle Augmentation 4 costs 0.8 essence and 124000. Availability is pretty high, but you could get them used to make that a little easier. You can get rating 3 used ones at chargen and combine that with the adept power for +4. There are no rules that exclude adepts from augmentations. There is a tradeoff and the expenditure of resources, certainly, but overall, strength and agility are the easiest stats to raise (Ignoring the Increase Attribute line of spells which make all stats equal, but have their own problems to keep running). Some stats have caps lower than +4 because there is no 'ware for them. For strength, there are 3 different means (Muscle Augmentation, Muscle Replacement and Cyberlimbs) along with a fourth that can be combined with the former (Suprathyroid Gland). Try to find something that augments intuition.

To show you just how easy it is to be awesome at meele:
At Chargen (Resources C)
Used Muscle Augmentation 3: 0,75 Essence, 69.750 NuYen
Bone Density Augmentation 3: 0,9 Essense, 15.000 NuYen

+3 Strength and +2 Unarmed Damage. Combine with 6 Strength for 11P without any other bonuses. Adept with A Attributes, B Skills, C Resources, D Magic and E Race has Magic 3. Enough for Inc. Reflexes 2 and Critical Strike fpr 12P. That's an assault rifle strength punch right out of the gate with some Essence left for cybereyes and some money left for Qi Foci. He can improve his meele damage by 2 points with money without loosing any more magic with standart 'ware. Especially Bone Density Augmentation is dirt cheap. (50.000 for deltaware... .)

So how exactly is it hard or impossible to get 10 strength or build decent adepts? And before you go "but it's ware", that was *always* the case in Shadowrun. Magic alone has always been beaten by 'ware + magic except for the very very high end.

Cool, you've spent all your resources and all your magic to do the same damage that any other character can do by throwing down an easy 3k nuyen.  And yeah, it sure was "easy" for you to do that, it only cost you both the entirety of your resources AND magic.  Wait, were you supposed to prove me wrong here?

Incidentally, despite how much work you put into that, your character is illegal.  How are you getting Magic 3?  Magic D for Adept starts you with Magic 2.  Plus one point from Human E makes three.  Minus two essence leaves you at one.  To quote the book, "Anything that reduces your Essences also reduces your Magic rating.  For every point (or fraction thereof) of Essence lost, both your current Magic Attribute and your maximum Magic Rating are reduced by one."

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #40 on: (04:13:09/02-02-14) »
another limitation (only affects dice pools) and a statement that two derived attributes do not change.
And that is exactly what I stated. It has an inclusive and an exclusive statement. The two are also connected by the ;, which suggests that the second flows out of the first. However, they are ignoring different consequences yet don't state it in a way that notes that these two consequences are merely possible consequences, which also means it's unclear whether they even thought about that the changed description also means no damage boost. So while you state there's no reason to assume otherwise, you also only have limited reason to not assume otherwise. So no, while it's extremely likely not meant to boost damage, the intent is not 100% certain.
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Beaumis

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« Reply #41 on: (04:53:37/02-02-14) »
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Cool, you've spent all your resources and all your magic to do the same damage that any other character can do by throwing down an easy 3k nuyen.  And yeah, it sure was "easy" for you to do that, it only cost you both the entirety of your resources AND magic.  Wait, were you supposed to prove me wrong here?
Dial down the hostility. Its uncalled for.
You went from "Its impossible" to exaggerating how much I spend to do it (I spend ~50% of the monetary and 33% of the essence resources.), so yeah. I'm pretty sure I did prove you wrong. ;)
 
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Incidentally, despite how much work you put into that, your character is illegal.
I unconsciously worked off an exploit there, but you're right. So the char has magic one. Still an adept with a decent punch. Or switch skills and magic, be more narrow and have more adept powers.

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So no, while it's extremely likely not meant to boost damage, the intent is not 100% certain.
Well I see your point there, but it's kind of a stretch. I know the school of "it doesn't say I can't" rule readings is a time honored tradition, but I have never subscribed to it so I tend to ignore it. No offense. ;)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #42 on: (04:59:55/02-02-14) »
The problem is that they changed a description due to changes to the game mechanics, then don't properly cover every effect, so it's not entirely clear whether they want an inclusive or an exclusive effect. Without the introduction of Limits it wouldn't really be a problem here.
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ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #43 on: (08:14:00/02-02-14) »
First off I apologize for getting aggressive.  Didn't mean it  :-\

With all due respect, I would say that having Magic 1 does not make you an adept, and rather succinctly proves my statement of "Adepts essentially cannot hit the bonus 4 in Strength."

Which brings me to the next problem; at Skills D, you haven't just "narrowed down" what you do, you've made what is essentially a one trick pony.  Again, the lion's share of your resources go into "match a weapon that costs 3k nuyen."  This is, I grant, a way to be an adept AND hit Strength 4.  However...now what?

This is sorta my main point to this.  Capping strength isn't casual.  It takes a lot of resources - and the end result is exceedingly mediocre.  Guns don't require any off those resources, and benefit from cover, range, and smartguns.  Bows, sure, they gain those benefits too - but they still require an incredible amount of resources.

Let's look at what this has cost you.  First off, you have to put Resources into C, then Skills at D, so that's no Edge for you.  I know this started as "Even a HUMAN can..." but it seems more like "ONLY a human can..." to me.  This essentially sets up that there is only one way to manage this.  And while I'm sure others will say I'm being dumb, I think something is legitimately lost when the only way to make a kung fu adept or true warrior of the blade is to take a blow to your Essence.  That's something that never sat well with me in SR4.

Secondly, those points in strength must come from somewhere else.  That means lower body or lower will.  Or maybe lower initiative and dodge from Reflexes and Intuition.  Or maybe you lose Logic and with it your magic defense.  Or Charisma, but hey, you said that one isn't a dump  ;).  Putting points in strength objectively makes you weaker in some other field, and it does so by a large degree.  Most character I see tend towards 2-3 Strength, so that's 3-4 points lost: the difference between A in Attributes, and B in Attributes.

And once more, your worry at the start was that strength is too powerful because it "double dips."  I contest this: it has two skills, effects recoil to a very small degree, largely builds physical limit, and grants melee damage.  If you did not care about melee damage, how far would those two skills and small recoil effect sway you?  Over your main attacking stat?  Over you initiative and dodge stats?  Over Logic with it's giant list of skills and it's magic defense?  Over Charisma?  I grant that the physical limit CAN be a biggie (one of my characters, a B&E/Face, did indeed have to take an advantage to raise her's), but I maintain that strength is not only far from being super important, it is one of the least important to all but melee/bow characters.  And the end result is, as you said, "assault rifle damage."  Well, what stops me from tossing down 3k nuyen and grabbing an assault rifle?

Beaumis

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« Reply #44 on: (11:30:51/02-02-14) »
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First off I apologize for getting aggressive.  Didn't mean it
Apology accepted. Don't worry about it. ;)

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With all due respect, I would say that having Magic 1 does not make you an adept, and rather succinctly proves my statement of "Adepts essentially cannot hit the bonus 4 in Strength."
Note how I build a character that has these stats at chargen. Once you are willing to wait a while for your strength to get capped, it becomes way more essence and magic friendly. I do agree that I did invest quite a lot into capping strength and unarmed damage, but making sacrifices such as a narrow skillset or low starting magic (Which I can pump back up to 3 with Karma even at chargen btw.) is not unreasonable when you want to start at the high end of anything. Frankly, capping anything shouldn't be done casually.

The thing about bows is this. First, they used to scale in scary ways. Before SR5 capped their rating, you could have a rating 15 bow for your troll and basically fire arrows equal to an assault cannon. Second, we are talking about a legal weapon that you can carry anywhere, is naturally silenced and has assault rifle range, damage and armor penetration. This is before you consider the injection arrows. This is very, very different from just picking up an assault rifle and requires less resources than melee.

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And while I'm sure others will say I'm being dumb, I think something is legitimately lost when the only way to make a kung fu adept or true warrior of the blade is to take a blow to your Essence.  That's something that never sat well with me in SR4.
No offense, you but wanna have your cake and eat it too here.
This is Shadowrun, not some sword and board fantasy game. Guns are the norm because they simply are better than melee weapons. That's why they replaced them in warfare. If you want to go retro and focus on melee (armed or unarmed) that is fine, but you have to be aware of the fact that you are handicapping yourself. Yet, you want to handicap yourself further by not taking advantage of the technological improvements that your enemies will be using, because it violates your understand of a "true" adept/ warrior.
I do see your point and I understand your desire. There is something inherently cool to the guy who brings his sword to a gunfight, but that something is in no small part the fact that he is the underdog because he brings his sword to a gunfight. All that being said, once an adept has enough Karma he actually can be that guy. But to get there, you have to be the underdog for a long time.

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Secondly, those points in strength must come from somewhere else.
Well sure, but that's the case for any build, so I don't consider that much of a problem. I do think there is no such thing as a dumpstat as my games tend to use all of them pretty regularly. As I said before, the lower a stat the more likely you are to actually roll for it, because the GM is not confident in your abilities. With my current char, I have rolled more logic tests (3) than intuition tests (5) simply because the 5 in intuition suggests that I am exceptional enough to not roll for most things. If there was a dumpstat, it probably would be something like reaction since it is so commonly augmented.. I also tend to play mages, so Charisma is kind of important to me personally. ;)

About strength double dipping, I do see your point but frankly, strength is pretty unique since it does something for everyone. There is plenty of characters that will get little use out of charisma or agility or even body (with enough armor, the value of body diminishes). The physical limit is the one that every character ever will utilize at some point because none can sneak or jump or run for you. You can get around a lot of it, but eventually your bag of tricks will run empty and then you'll need it. Every character will eventually fire a gun and worry about recoil and there is strength to help you. And the only ones that don't are the melee chars that need it anyway. Finally, every character will need the carrying capacity and that one has a tendency to be real important in really inconvenient situations. (Yeah, Johnny is unconscious, we can either drag him or the loot, damn why didn't you raise strength man?)

On top of that, melee damage needs to be measured on the people that build for it, because if it's not, it becomes way too powerful quickly. An average troll or an exceptional dwarf/ ork rivals Sniper Rifles in damage when wielding a combat axe. That is scary... .