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Adjustable strength bows

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raleel

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« on: (12:48:32/01-27-14) »
So, bows that can be adjusted to have a lighter draw exist IRL. Why do we not have these in Shadowrun where we have Adepts with attribute boost?

PeterSmith

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« Reply #1 on: (12:51:56/01-27-14) »
Sounds like something that would be more appropriate for fluff than crunch.
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raleel

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« Reply #2 on: (13:23:41/01-27-14) »
no doubt that it could be done easily that way. It seems rather important for crunch because bows are strength-based damage, rating, cost, and arrows are secondarily derived from strength as well. I can't believe that it hasn't made it into any version of shadowrun that I can find. Heck, carbon fiber arrows have been out since SR1.

My own GM and I are adding "adjust strength down" as a wireless feature.

ZeConster

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« Reply #3 on: (13:53:49/01-27-14) »
IIRC, Attribute Boost (Strength) only affects dice pools, not the Strength you use for bows.

Namikaze

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« Reply #4 on: (13:55:15/01-27-14) »
I'm not familiar with how reducing the strength of a pull works in real life.  If I knew more about the actual process, I'd probably be able to help a little.  I would imagine that it involves re-stringing the bow, yes?

Also, ZeConster is correct - Attribute Boost of any attribute only affects dice pools, not derived stats (such as damage).  If you want to be a better archer, you're better off taking Attribute Boost (Agility) so that you can get more hits on your attack.
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PeterSmith

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« Reply #5 on: (13:57:23/01-27-14) »
I know it's been a while since I've shot, so correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand, a bow at a given draw rating will impart the same amount of energy to an arrow when it's released as every other bow with that same draw rating? If this is the case, it doesn't matter how the arrow is drawn back. It only matters what happens when the arrow and bowstring are released.
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

raleel

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« Reply #6 on: (14:00:57/01-27-14) »
IIRC, Attribute Boost (Strength) only affects dice pools, not the Strength you use for bows.

not disagreeing with you, but would that not make Attribute Boost (strength) functionally useless for damage? Damage doesn't appear to be a dice pool. I freely admit I'm not an expert at SR5 (or any SR for that matter).

That would seem to make it.. well.. not very useful.

ZeConster

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« Reply #7 on: (14:11:12/01-27-14) »
It would, which is why many people hate it.

raleel

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« Reply #8 on: (14:33:36/01-27-14) »
GM i just chatted it out and ran through a couple of things.

Functionally, we both agree that it's probably too much, and that strength modification is almost useless without the static values. We also think there should probably be more strength stuff :)

So, issue solved. I'm somewhat sad, but also pretty OK with it.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #9 on: (22:00:19/01-27-14) »
Strength Boost is indeed fairly close to worthless.  The only real Attribute Boost spell that gets much use is Agility Boost.

If Boost: Strength DID work, personally, I'd be totally ok with adjustable strength bows.  It's not as if the game is in danger of almighty bows destroying everything in their path.

raleel

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« Reply #10 on: (22:46:08/01-27-14) »
I'm not familiar with how reducing the strength of a pull works in real life.  If I knew more about the actual process, I'd probably be able to help a little.  I would imagine that it involves re-stringing the bow, yes?

Also, ZeConster is correct - Attribute Boost of any attribute only affects dice pools, not derived stats (such as damage).  If you want to be a better archer, you're better off taking Attribute Boost (Agility) so that you can get more hits on your attack.

Only on a very old school bow. Nowadays you can adjust their weight with an allen wrench and turning a bolt (or 2 or 4, depending on the bow). In my mind if we have pistols that can fold themselves into blocks of metal and knifes that can become form fitting in sheathes, adjustable strength bows seems well within the norm.

raleel

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« Reply #11 on: (22:47:03/01-27-14) »
I know it's been a while since I've shot, so correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand, a bow at a given draw rating will impart the same amount of energy to an arrow when it's released as every other bow with that same draw rating? If this is the case, it doesn't matter how the arrow is drawn back. It only matters what happens when the arrow and bowstring are released.

Yep. I was referring to the draw weight, not the draw length :)

Beaumis

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« Reply #12 on: (08:10:35/01-29-14) »
IIRC, Attribute Boost (Strength) only affects dice pools, not the Strength you use for bows.

not disagreeing with you, but would that not make Attribute Boost (strength) functionally useless for damage?
Yes it does and it also seems to be the point.

Strength is the only attribute that "double dips" in the sense that it provides more than a dice pool bonus to tests. (Ignoring limits for a moment) The only conceivable reason why the power would specifically state dice pools is to ensure the boost does not affect limits and secondary derived stats, such as melee damage.

Strength based weaponry is already very troublesome due to how high strength can get. Even a human can get up to strength 10 with relative ease, which makes a throwing knife equal to an assault rifle in terms of damage. It absolutely does not need to go further with adept powers.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #13 on: (00:21:00/01-31-14) »
Yes it does and it also seems to be the point.

Strength is the only attribute that "double dips" in the sense that it provides more than a dice pool bonus to tests. (Ignoring limits for a moment) The only conceivable reason why the power would specifically state dice pools is to ensure the boost does not affect limits and secondary derived stats, such as melee damage.

Strength based weaponry is already very troublesome due to how high strength can get. Even a human can get up to strength 10 with relative ease, which makes a throwing knife equal to an assault rifle in terms of damage. It absolutely does not need to go further with adept powers.

Counterpoint: there's two Strength skills.  Two.  Somehow I doubt it was intended for Boost Strength to be a drain granting, crappier version of the improved skill power.  Also, strength based weaponry is troublesome for the opposite reason - a human cannot get strength 10 with "relative ease," because that costs a lot or resources.  It is in fact the literal opposite of "with relative ease."  If you're an adept, you essentially cannot get strength 10 at all - which is stupid as hell, because adepts were always the "melee kung fu" dudes, and now they suck at it.  Lastly, it cannot "go further with adept powers."  methods of increasing attributes don't stack.  Ten is the cap for a human - period, forever, the end.

Also I'm not sure you can really say strength is the only skill that "double dips."  Agility provides movement and, like, nearly all the important skills in a fight.  Reaction and Intuition provide initiative and defense rolls.  Body and Will add health boxes.  Will, Logic, and Charisma potentially add to drain soak.  Logic is used to defend for a high number of spells.

So not only is Strength not the only one that double dips, it is, along with charisma, one of two stats that most runners will never use, ever.  The only reason to stack strength is 1) melee damage, and 2) physical limit.  And Boost Strength doesn't help either of those.

...In fact I'm pretty sure almost everything you said is the opposite of reality.

JackVII

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« Reply #14 on: (00:34:01/01-31-14) »
So not only is Strength not the only one that double dips, it is, along with charisma, one of two stats that most runners will never use, ever.

Wut?

(Although I do agree that it is stupid as hell that "hulking out" doesn't increase damage... the power is already limited by the Augmented Racial Max. If they wanted to put a reasonable limit on the power, they should have used the ranks in the power as a limit)
« Last Edit: (00:46:56/01-31-14) by JackVII »
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