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Gun Question

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savaze

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« Reply #60 on: (07:00:44/11-23-10) »
I know the US Army has purchased a whole slew of caseless ammo weapons (http://www.vincelewis.net/metalstorm.html), but they are configured a bit different than normal.  The barrel exists purely to hold all the rounds, and reloading consist of changing the barrel out.  They got around all the weak-spots by sealing the barrel/magazine.  The guys I know that fired them say the recoil is less than the normal mounted weapons (M-240, Mk-19, M-2) that have a lot lower rate of fire 300-1200 rpm vs. 1 Million rpm.
Metalstorm mounted weapons having lower recoil probably has almost nothing to do with the fact it uses caseless ammo and everythink to do with the fact that, them being big multibarreled beasties, they weight a whole lot more then the conventional mounted weapons.

From what I've been told the M-2 weighs more because the Metal Storm is a one man portable system.  In the US a combat load is roughly 45.5 kilos/100lbs (body armor, personal weapon, ammo, & ruck sack... It should only be a 1/3 of that but that's another story).  The M-2 is a 2-man detail for weapon, tripod, and ammo.

Here's some more caseless links (these are reloadable by round):
Turret: http://www.metalstorm.com/release/AGM2009-2.html
Shotgun: http://www.metalstorm.com/release/AGM2009-3.html
Grenade Launcher: http://www.metalstorm.com/release/AGM2009-1.html

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #61 on: (11:23:03/11-23-10) »
Those are all grenade launchers (except the center one).  They have low recoil because they don't push the round out very hard.

That shotgun doesn't look like it's pushing the round out very hard.  You can see it travel to the target.  It doesn't look like it is a shotgun at all, even.  Just a smaller underbarrel grenade launcher.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #62 on: (13:44:35/11-23-10) »
The Variety *I saw* propelled differently than Cased ammo.  Whereas Cased has an explosion that's guided down a barrel propelling the bullet, without the barrel and such the case and the bullet fly apart ala shrapnel style.  This variety of Caseless had a controlled burn that didn't consume all the fuel within the length of the barrel, but only shortly thereafter.  It seemed to be a hybrid between Caseless and Gyrojet where the propellant travelled with the bullet, but on the outside of the round, or so it was explained.
That SOUNDS like an incendiary or tracer round, actually, not caseless ammo. Both have attached burning material that might look like a rocket exhaust.

The only reason that Gyrojet works is that it HAS a case. For propellant to work effectively it needs confined space. Gyrojets have the confined space contained inside the bullet, with a tiny nozzle in the rear for the burning propellant to shoot out of, pushing the gyrojet round in the other direction.

In regular ammo, cased and caseless, almost all of the "push" is from the expanding gasses inside the confined space of the barrel. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the gasses don't have a lot to push against anymore. Even if you had burning propellant attached to the bullet, it's not going to impart any significant "push" to the bullet after it leaves the barrel - all the energy just scatters into the air.

I wasn't aware of the changes to propellant and the like.  SR doesn't seem to be using that variety, unfortunately.
Yeah, there's a lot of tech stuff that Shadowrun didn't keep up with.

I know the US Army has purchased a whole slew of caseless ammo weapons (http://www.vincelewis.net/metalstorm.html), but they are configured a bit different than normal.  The barrel exists purely to hold all the rounds, and reloading consist of changing the barrel out.  They got around all the weak-spots by sealing the barrel/magazine.  The guys I know that fired them say the recoil is less than the normal mounted weapons (M-240, Mk-19, M-2) that have a lot lower rate of fire 300-1200 rpm vs. 1 Million rpm.
Yeah, the Metalstorm appears in Shadowrun as the "Sakura Fubuki" (cherry blossom storm) firearm.

In real life, it looks like the Metal Storm makers are concentrating on vehicular or mounted scale weapons now - apparently there is no military interest in small arms personal scale versions. I can imagine why - carrying a bunch of tubes of ammo, and having to muzzle or breech load them, is inconvenient compared to regular old magazines.


-k

savaze

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« Reply #63 on: (15:47:32/11-23-10) »
That SOUNDS like an incendiary or tracer round, actually, not caseless ammo. Both have attached burning material that might look like a rocket exhaust.

The only reason that Gyrojet works is that it HAS a case. For propellant to work effectively it needs confined space. Gyrojets have the confined space contained inside the bullet, with a tiny nozzle in the rear for the burning propellant to shoot out of, pushing the gyrojet round in the other direction.

In regular ammo, cased and caseless, almost all of the "push" is from the expanding gasses inside the confined space of the barrel. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the gasses don't have a lot to push against anymore. Even if you had burning propellant attached to the bullet, it's not going to impart any significant "push" to the bullet after it leaves the barrel - all the energy just scatters into the air.

-k

The stuff I saw wasn't a tracer or an incendiary round, I've fired plenty of those in my time and those're cased.  The stuff I saw didn't leave a trail or ignite/burn on contact, it acted like a normal round, just quieter.  I'll bow out on talking about it because I can't find a link or anything to refer you to...

For how you've described caseless (not referring to how Metalstorm bypassed this issue), I wonder about residue and feeding problems.  I would imagine that it would have an increased jamming problem from the rounds attempting to chamber in an ever thicker layer of residue. 

I've got 1500 miles to drive over the next few days, so until Tuesday, adieu.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #64 on: (09:36:09/11-24-10) »
Other way around, actually.  The propellant burns pretty cleanly, as I understand it (someone who has used the things can probably give you waaay more information), and without an open breech to let in dirt/debris, it is sealed against outside contamination.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."