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[SR5] Rules Clarifications and FAQ

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PiXeL01

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« Reply #1680 on: (23:10:53/05-28-19) »
Actually Adepts gain power points from each magic they purchase so yes, potentially does each initiation grant access to two power point. Itís very karma expensive of course.
Mystic adepts only gain power point by choosing at initiation. They gain nothing from magic.

P. 69 CRB:
ē Adepts gain Adept Powers that are purchased with Power
Points. Adepts receive a number of Power Points equal to their Magic rating.

So if their magic goes up they gain more power point
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1681 on: (23:21:08/05-28-19) »
That's a chargen rule.

Adepts don't gain power points from magic increases just as full magicians don't get additional spells/rituals just because their magic went up.

The only way I know of to gain power points post-chargen is picking them at initiation.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1682 on: (00:39:48/05-29-19) »
That's a chargen rule.

Adepts don't gain power points from magic increases just as full magicians don't get additional spells/rituals just because their magic went up.

The only way I know of to gain power points post-chargen is picking them at initiation.
MYSTIC Adepts do not. Adepts gain as normal, only thing errata changed is make extra very clear Mystics do not.
Quote from: p278
If you’re an adept, you get a free Power Point
whenever you increase your Magic attribute (though this
doesn’t apply to mystic adepts), and you can gain a Power
Point through Initiation (p. 324) instead of gaining a
metamagic.

Hi All.
Just looking for a consensus of opinion on a couple of topics that I have recently experienced. Please feel free to share your thoughts.
1) Adepts are too overpowered.
2) Adepts can effectively get two power points per initiation grade, one for raising their magic and one from picking 'power point' as their initiation benefit.
3) Adepts must turn all powers on or off. If they are on and they go through a mana barrier their powers are switched off and they may permanently loose them.
4) If an Adept has powers on, an astal mage can attack them with spells, by 'grounding' them through the adept abilities.
5) If an Adept has astral sight they still cannot affect astral space or anything in it.

Comments please...
1: An opinion-based question which is incredibly leading and should be in its own topic, not in a topic meant for official answers.

2: Yes? And? They get to pick between an extra Power Point and the metamagics such as Adept Centering, Infusion, Qi Sculpt, and a metamagic from whatever Adept Way they want to pick up. Given how all Magic gives them is an extra power point, not significant dicepool/summoning boosts, I don't see the problem with providing this choice.

3: You can turn powers off if you want, which can be useful in bad background counts, but having Adept Powers on does not make you dual-natured and the powers themselves do not have an astral form. So no, your powers aren't smashed off by crossing a Ward.

Quote from: p315/316
Adept powers and many always-on critter powers
are innate and so are unaffected by a barrier. The gam-
emaster has the option to have certain ranged and sustained
critter powers (such as Concealment or Movement)
suffer the same fate as spells.
This explicitly only allows GMs to make exceptions for specific Critter Powers, NOT Adept Powers.

4: No. Adept Powers do not have an Astral Form to attack. Furthermore, there is no such thing as Grounding. Even if someone had an active Focus or Spell on them, the best an astral entity can do is attack that active astral form, which will NOT harm the non-astral person. You can only be affected if you're dual-natured.

5: There are Adept ways of impacting astral forms. Also, ANYONE with Magic can buy and use Astral Combat, so they can still do an Unarmed attack without boosting it with powers. But the skill is non-defaultable, so they must buy it to be able to use it.

Also, literal quote from Astral Perception adept power:
Quote from: p309
Since you’re dual-natured while you’re using astral perception,
you can attack astral forms when you use this power.
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Shredni

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« Reply #1683 on: (06:35:53/05-29-19) »
Thanks for the feedback. FYI I've been a ref of very nearly 40 years, and have reffed Shadowrun from 1st Ed.  I didnt really move to 3rd or 4th Ed, but recently was invited to a game of 5th Ed.
As you can imagine, these are some of the opinions and rules in the game I'm playing, so wanted to get a straight answer as to whether these are house rules or core. Your answers have confirmed my opinions and interpretation of the rules I have read.

Mr Chandra. Though I appreciate your answer, I was just looking for your opinions, with no judgement. Everyone is entitled to one. I wasnt sure whether it was a commonly held belief that Adepts are OP.

From my point of view, everything you have written makes sense to me, and surely makes for a balanced game.
I'm also inclined to go with Stainless Steel Devil Rat on the topic of Power Point gain, as I too read the CharGen paragraph to which he/she refers. This is mainy due to previous editions of the game following this very line.

With these rules in place, I can see how Adept and Street Sams measure up, they are just two different approaches to the same end.

Its good to know people in our community are there with help and opinion. Its all appreciated. Thank you.

p.s.: I have posted the exact same question on several other forums, and, as you may well imagine, am getting the exact same answers. 

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1684 on: (07:08:26/05-29-19) »
I'm also inclined to go with Stainless Steel Devil Rat on the topic of Power Point gain, as I too read the CharGen paragraph to which he/she refers. This is mainy due to previous editions of the game following this very line.
It's not a houserule I agree with, since I find Mystic Adepts more of a concern than Adepts, but nobody's forbidding anyone from having houserules. As long as it's identified as a houserule overriding the p278 rules, that's fine.

As for the 'Adepts are OP' thing: That's a subjective question, and there's nothing wrong with asking it, but in a topic that's originally meant for clarifying RAW and RAI, it's not really at its place.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #1685 on: (10:50:50/05-29-19) »
Shredni, most of your questions got tackled, but I do want to add a few thoughts:

Short term, Adepts are relatively on par with ware-focused street sams (with a notable exception that Adepts can be immensely more magic resistant if built for it). Long-term, anything magic wins due to unlimited growth potential of the magic attribute/initiation.

Adepts absolutely do get 1 power point for free every time they raise their magic attribute.

Shredni

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« Reply #1686 on: (13:08:33/05-29-19) »
Hiya.
Thanks for jumping in.

"Short term, Adepts are relatively on par with ware-focused street sams (with a notable exception that Adepts can be immensely more magic resistant if built for it). Long-term, anything magic wins due to unlimited growth potential of the magic attribute/initiation."

Yeah. Have seen this with other editions. The Steet Sam' cant fit any better cyberware than he has without going looney tunes, but the Adept can keep going for initiation. My only justification/balance with this, in my mind, is that Karma is worth so much more than money, and equivilently harder to come by. By this I mean; the Steet Sam does a run with his adept buddy and is awarded Nuyen and Karma. The Sam' can spend his money on Cyberware, and his Karma on Attributes and Skills (both improve his overall ability)- not discounting living expenses and gear which I feel have a lesser gain. The Adept can spend Nuyen on living expenses and gear, but Karma can be put toward Skills, Attributes or Initiation (Expensive!). So one rescource to cover any overall gain.
So, though the Adept can effectively continue to grow forever, and the Sam cannot, the likelyhood of the Adept getting the chance to do so, in any typical story or campaign is limited. (As is the amount of Nuyen to "Max out" Street Sam!)
As for being Magic resistant, I guess so, but they pay for it, and they could be spending that power point on other, possibly more beneficial, abilities.

'Adepts absolutely do get 1 power point for free every time they raise their magic attribute.'


This, however, comes as a shock. As I mentioned, up to 2nd Ed. didnt give two power points per initiation grade, and I dont see the need for it. This is one of the reasons my current ref cites as for why Adepts are OP. In his mind, when compared to a mage, for example, who gains one ability/metamagic, the Phys Ad gets twice as much. Frustratingly the rules later in the book dont make this any clearer, but the CharGen rules earlier in the book seem to infer that Power Points are linked to Magic Attribute during ChrGen only.

"As an Adept, you get Power Points equal to your Magic Rating at character creation. You then spend the Power Points on buying adept powers."
Quote Page 308 Core Rules

I'm putting this forward despite it not being in my favour ( ;D), but I do feel maybe two Power Points per initiation grade is too much.(?)

Please comment.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1687 on: (13:20:50/05-29-19) »
They have several metamagics that are useful. As for the mage:

- Gains +1 die on all their magic tests
- Can summon 1 Force Stun, 2 Force Physical higher
- Overcasting drain needs 1 more hit
- Spells/rituals/preparations cast at Higher Force are harder to get rid of
- Can use more Force in Foci without suffering from addiction
- Some fancy awesome new advantage from the Metamagic

An Adept literally gets this from the Magic Point:
- 1 Power Point
- +1/3 bonus on Attribute Boost

And like I mentioned, there are at least 4 useful metamagics for Adepts, so it's not as if they're not sacrificing anything when they go for a Power Point instead.

So I strongly disagree with your ref, and with the houserule.

(Also: Initiating and Magic Increase are two separate instances, of 10+3*Rank and 5*Rank in karma costs. 48, 56, ... karma per combo.)

Quote
Frustratingly the rules later in the book dont make this any clearer
Uhm... I literally quoted the rules and posted the page reference from the Master Index PDF. The same sentence is in the official errata document. If you're just going to insist on acting like I'm just making up direct rulequotes, I'm backing out of this 'debate'.
« Last Edit: (13:29:43/05-29-19) by Michael Chandra »
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Shredni

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« Reply #1688 on: (13:42:07/05-29-19) »
Beautifully summed up Mr Chandra. I agree.
As you put it earlier, though, house rules are house rules, as long as you are aware of them before you start then you accept them. I feel that previous experience of this ref has coloured his opinion quite drastically, and perhaps caused him to err to much the other way. But, its his game.
This topic was mainly to clear up any doubts I had about these rulings as it was unclear to me where they'd come from. I do intend to Ref some 5th Ed. in the future, so I wanted to know where I stand.
Again, thank you all for your input. Its all been good.
Cheers.
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Shredni

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« Reply #1689 on: (13:57:36/05-29-19) »
Mr Chandra.
With regards to:
'Uhm... I literally quoted the rules and posted the page reference from the Master Index PDF. The same sentence is in the official errata document. If you're just going to insist on acting like I'm just making up direct rulequotes, I'm backing out of this 'debate'.'
Your input and your helpful quotations have been of great use, and I had no intent to challenge your input or the veracity of your quotes. I was simply making a statement from the point of view of first reading. I apologise if that did not come across as such.
You have only to play at Little Wars three or four times to realize just what a blundering thing Great War must be.

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Lormyr

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« Reply #1690 on: (15:31:41/05-29-19) »
My only justification/balance with this, in my mind, is that Karma is worth so much more than money, and equivilently harder to come by.

This is generally true, and is a slight progress speed bump on the adept. That said, that money can also be spent on Foci, which are every bit as good as raw power points at a certain threshold, however.

As for being Magic resistant, I guess so, but they pay for it

A small price to pay considering magic is hands down the most devastating force in the game.

In his mind, when compared to a mage, for example, who gains one ability/metamagic, the Phys Ad gets twice as much.

I suppose it depends on how you look at it. To start, the adept does not get two power points per initiation - he potentially gains 2 per initiation and magic attribute increase. Both characters are paying x karma to initiate, then x karma to raise their magic attribute. Sure, the adept gains two "things" out of doing that, but the mage increases the potential force of his spells by 2 and adds one to his drain pool if he is worth his salt (centering) for the same cost. The mage will win this race every single time.

Shredni

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« Reply #1691 on: (17:54:08/05-29-19) »
Hm. Good points.
Foci. Yep, never really considered that. Haven't seen how much they can effect the 5th ed game, if i'm honest, as we are permanently reminded how vulnerable such things make you. (another conversation entirely).
You make a good point, and maybe i'm arguing from the wrong perspective. It just seems a lot to me.  ???
Still, you've made me think on it. The Karma cost maybe does warrant something more...
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Marcus

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« Reply #1692 on: (13:34:39/05-30-19) »
Going with the no power point on raising magic interpretation just ensures adepts won't raise magic above whatever they had at creation. It will shape what powers are selected and it further weakens any chance of people using the ways. In the grand-scheme of thing I don't think it's going to hugely effect out comes, the ways were DOA in 5e, and combat adept have always been the most popular method. That said it basically reduces the chance of seeing more complex or nuanced adept builds.

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Shredni

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« Reply #1693 on: (06:16:47/06-01-19) »
True.
I think im looking at this from 2nd Ed. eyes.
There are, however, adept powers that do grow with Magic attribute, but as you say, not necessarily the standard picks.
hmm. Again, I cant argue with the logic.

Thanks
You have only to play at Little Wars three or four times to realize just what a blundering thing Great War must be.

H.G. Wells