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"Grandfathering" rule poll

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Bull

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« on: (13:39:01/07-15-13) »
Little poll for you all...  WHat do you think of the "Grandfathering" rule we use in Missions? aka, the one that says if a rule is changed or errata'd, characters made before the change play as is while new characters have to follow the new rules? 

Should Grandfathering stay in Seaosn 5, or should it go?

StarManta

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« Reply #1 on: (14:23:28/07-15-13) »
If you have a character concept that is reliant on a rule that gets changed, what would happen to them if grandfathering is no longer allowed? Would they be allowed to build a new character and bring their Karma over to the new one?

Bull

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« Reply #2 on: (14:41:44/07-15-13) »
If we remove the Grandfathered rule, then yes, characters would be allowed to rebuild and keep any karma and nuyen they've earned, though they should rebuild as closely as possible to the original character.

Ricochet

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« Reply #3 on: (20:54:37/07-15-13) »
I think in the case of 5th edition, grandfathering shouldn't be included up to the first errata.  Nobody has that much invested in the season yet, and major balance issues were known even before the first characters were made.

After the first errata comes out (as long as it's in a timely fashion (like by Gencon?) then I'd say everyone should use a level playing field for character creation.

Obrafour

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« Reply #4 on: (22:12:55/07-15-13) »
I agree with what seems to be the majority so far - no grandfathering.

That being said, I definitely think there should be a mechanic for rebuild built into the FAQ in case it's needed.

As for those who built mystic adepts during Origins (I am not one of them), they should be allowed a complete rebuild, and not just "as close as possible" to their original character, as they may very likely have picked that archetype due to the karma cost of pp and their actual concept or play style would not be possible with a magic-based character at this point in the season.

Just my $.015

Bull

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« Reply #5 on: (22:32:20/07-15-13) »
That will quite likely be the case.  I will actually likely allow a full rebuild for Origins players (And anyone else who happened to play prior to the book being released) anyway. Folks making characters at origins were largely doing so blind, especially since some GMs didn't even have copies of the final release book, and I said for anyone who just played an Archetype at the show that they could do a full rebuild once the book was out anyway.  I'll announce it once a decision has been made.

Vertigo916 "Patches"

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« Reply #6 on: (06:34:47/07-16-13) »
Side question.. Can you replay missions? I know after reading threw my wife and I are both probably going to scrap our current chars if we are not able to rebuild and just start over for gencon.
I trust the player, If I don't whats the point?

Ricochet

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« Reply #7 on: (07:37:31/07-16-13) »
I believe I read in a previous season thread, a character can only play a mission once, but a player can play the same one multiple times.  (As a courtesy, try not to use out of character knowledge to ruin things for others.)

Bull

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« Reply #8 on: (08:20:58/07-16-13) »
YOu *can* play a Mission with the same character twice even.  However, only the first playthrough "counts", and is the only one you can earn karma and money with.  ANd yeah, you can play multiple characters if you want, but you should generally sit back and not make decisions and stuff, so you don't ruin the game for the other players, and to not take advantage of foreknowledge of the adventure.

Redwulfe

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« Reply #9 on: (11:53:38/07-16-13) »
My only problem with grandfathering is that the GM needs to not only know the current mission rules but also when the rules changed in previous iterations so they can check the character creation date to see if the character qualifies to be grandfathered. Now I'm not against it but I am prefer rebuilds.

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Ricochet

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« Reply #10 on: (12:04:09/07-16-13) »
My only problem with grandfathering is that the GM needs to not only know the current mission rules but also when the rules changed in previous iterations so they can check the character creation date to see if the character qualifies to be grandfathered. Now I'm not against it but I am prefer rebuilds.

Red

That's actually a really good point.  I think what can make it worst is having 3 sets of rules for some things.  Mystic Adepts are the biggest example.
Origins Adept - 2 karma per power point
Post-Origins/Pre-Errata Adept - 5 karma per power point
Post-Errata Adept - ?

That's potentially 3 rules sets for building the same character.  And I am playing a 5 karma per power point adept, so this directly affects me.

Bull

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« Reply #11 on: (14:32:15/07-16-13) »
Yeah, I know.  THis sucks.  I wish the Errata would get done and released.  Sorry about that :(

Anyway, grandfathering is probably gone.  The people have spoken. 

The new rule will basically be:

1)  If something that costs Nuyen or karma changes, you either earn additional karma/nuyen (if prices dropped), or you have to pay the additional karma/nuyen (going into debt if need be and paying it out of your next run reward or two).
2)  If something costs essence changes, adjust essence accordingly.  If you cannot legally have that essence, you can upgrade to Alpha/Betware if you can afford it, you can downgrade it, or your can remove it (getting a refund in cash and essence).
3) For anything more drastic, you can rebuild your character from scratch, keeping your earned mission awards.

This covers all the major bases.

This is tentative, of course.  And hopefully we won;t see major errata changes from here on (Hopefully with new books, we'll have the FAQ ready when the book launches so we can catch anything before players have the chance to update their characters and we need to backtrack).

Bull

Ricochet

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« Reply #12 on: (15:48:45/07-16-13) »
As much as it sucks, I think the approach is very fair.

As I said earlier, I don't really think it was a surprise there would be fixes needed even before the season started, so most missions players probably had at least some level of expectations that rules errata would be coming.  (I could be totally wrong on what the origins missions audience is like.)