Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Ajax on (13:30:42/03-21-12)

Title: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Ajax on (13:30:42/03-21-12)
Purchasing pre-trained animals is possible under the rules given in Running Wild, page 35. The chart lists the cost multipliers for a training critters in single tasks... but what if I want to purchase an animal that can do more than one thing? Now, the rules do state that not all critters are available trained, and GMs have the final say on if a character can find a trained specimen, but since I'm looking for a trained, mundane dog... I don't think this will be a problem. But there is a problem, oh yes, you see if I want a trained dog I need to cough up over two million nuyen. That is not a typo.

The rules say "To calculate the trained price, multiply the base cost of the critter by the training level multiplier and then by the Willpower multiplier." So if I have a Dog (¥100), Willpower 3 (x2) trained as a Guidedog for the Blind (x7), it will cost me ¥1400... but, unless I've misread the book, the Guidedog won't know how to Sit, Stay, Lay Down, or sleep in its Crate.

Since every trick you pruchase it pre-trained in adjusts it base cost, a dog with just basic obedience lessons quickly exceeds the value of a new sportscar!

Dog (¥100); Sit (¥250); Lay Down (¥625); Crate Training (¥1,562.5); Bark on Command (¥3906.25); Shake (¥9765.63); Recall (¥24,414.07); Heel (¥61,035.16); Stay (¥152,587.90)...

Want it to be trained at Tracking?  ¥2,136,230.60

Am I doing something wrong here, or did the designers of Running Wild really not want player's to have access to trained pets? Two million nuyen for a dog with basic obedience and a single Advanced training is nuts. I could just slap Skillwires, a Killswitch, and a bucket of Skillsofts into Fido for far, far less than the cost of getting him obedience lessons: Even paying detaware prices for the `ware and x2 or x3 the cost for special "canine edition" skillsofts. For the price of a trained Tracker... I can buy a fully armed tactical attack jetfighter.

At these prices, why would any Shadowrunner bother stealing paydata from megacorps or prototype weapons from the military? Just steal a guidedog from a blind person, sell it at 50% of market value, and retire to a permanent Luxury Lifestyle!
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: FastJack on (13:53:20/03-21-12)
I think you're over-thinking. Pre-trained would mean that they could do all that you would think would be included in the package, including the sit/heel/etc. commands. For instance, taking the Advance level for a seeing-eye dog would include anything in the lower levels, unless it was definitively against what may be in the training for a seeing-eye dog (i.e. Drug-sniffing, Follow through obstacle course, etc.).
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: SeriousOne338 on (13:54:53/03-21-12)
Well that's what you get for buying pure breed.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Mäx on (13:55:09/03-21-12)
I kinda just assumed(the examples IMO support this) you pick a general training level you want for the pet and then adjust the price accordingly.
So that dog would just cost the 1400 nuyen.

Put even if thats not how your GM rules it, your still doing somethink weird with your math.
All adjustments are for the base cost, the list you used is 4 instinctive 3 basic and 1 advancet level thinks.
so that 4*1,25+3*2+7 = 18 times the base cost, in this case 100 so 1800 times 2 for the willpower = 3600 nuyen, not that much really.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Ajax on (14:50:21/03-21-12)
Well that's what you get for buying pure breed.

Nope, I started with a standard ¥100 Dog. Cloned, sterile, and readily available.

I think you're over-thinking. Pre-trained would mean that they could do all that you would think would be included in the package, including the sit/heel/etc. commands. For instance, taking the Advance level for a seeing-eye dog would include anything in the lower levels, unless it was definitively against what may be in the training for a seeing-eye dog (i.e. Drug-sniffing, Follow through obstacle course, etc.).

I would think that, but it isn't stated to work that way in the book. Each task is a seperate Animal Training extended test if you "do it youself," and must be purchased seperately if you paid to have the animal pre-trained.

(B
)ut even if thats not how your GM rules it, your still doing somethink weird with your math.
All adjustments are for the base cost, the list you used is 4 instinctive 3 basic and 1 advancet level thinks.
so that 4*1,25+3*2+7 = 18 times the base cost, in this case 100 so 1800 times 2 for the willpower = 3600 nuyen, not that much really.

But once Fido has been trained in one task, his cost goes up. From ¥100 to ¥250 to ¥625 (¥100*1.25*2; ¥250*1.25*2; Etc.) all the way up to little Timmy's Lassie costing more than an aircraft carrier. Even if we do things the way you propose, you forgot that you mutliply evey task based on the dog's Willpower, not just the whole education. ¥7000 for a Guidedog? ¥8000 for a basic police K-9 dog?

I know that in Shadowrun's dystopian and technological future, animals are going to be a premium. I know that, for gameplay reasons, you want to steer most RPG players away from "pet class" concepts. But this is Shadowrun, common starting characters can have dozens of semi-independent drones. I just want a ex-cop and his dog.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: FastJack on (15:49:20/03-21-12)
Again, I think you're reading WAY too much into this. The Level of training indicates How Much the animal has been trained, not specific tricks he's learned.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Ajax on (16:01:35/03-21-12)
I've read and re-read the relevant section of RW a dozen times now, and cannot make heads nor tails of it. The rules are unclear as to whether training is tasked-based (half the examples, the charts on p.38-39) or based on a broader level of training (the other half of the examples). Grrr.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Mäx on (16:24:02/03-21-12)
[But once Fido has been trained in one task, his cost goes up.
His price yes, but the base cost never changes
Even if we do things the way you propose, you forgot that you mutliply evey task based on the dog's Willpower
I dont see any reason for this.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Ajax on (16:30:30/03-21-12)
Even if we do things the way you propose, you forgot that you mutliply evey task based on the dog's Willpower
I dont see any reason for this.

"To calculate the trained price, multiply the base cost ("B") of the critter by the training level multiplier ("T") and then by the Willpower multiplier (W)." Running Wild, p. 35 (parentheical notes mine). That makes the forumla B*T*W, not B*T as you suggest.

Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Sichr on (17:48:26/03-21-12)
Well on the same page I can see nice example telling me that Seeing-eye dog = 1400Y...this also tells me that advanced training means 7 times basic cost of the animal, and I suppose that it also means that for the price animal can every command listed on p.37/38 + those my GM sees as approved for this level of training.
Yes, willpower multiplier counts..well...the same example shows Hellhound, fragin dual killing machine with LOS ranged flamethrower for 200000 Y... That is the price of two pursuit cars... not that much IMO
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Lethe on (17:54:48/03-21-12)
"To calculate the trained price, multiply the base cost ("B") of the critter by the training level multiplier ("T") and then by the Willpower multiplier (W)." Running Wild, p. 35 (parentheical notes mine). That makes the forumla B*T*W, not B*T as you suggest.
You both meant the same. Your formular was B*T*W+B*T*W+..., while Max used (B*T+B*T+...)*W. Distributive Law.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Sichr on (18:03:37/03-21-12)
Well there is no "+" in this
Its simply Base Cost * Training Level Multiplier * Willpower Multiplier.
That is all...one simple formula.

Quote from:  Running Wild, p. 35
To calculate the trained price, multiply
the  base  cost  of  the  critter  by  the  training  level
multiplier  and  then  by  the  Willpower  multiplier.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Ajax on (18:04:26/03-21-12)
Well on the same page I can see nice example telling me that Seeing-eye dog = 1400Y...this also tells me that advanced training means 7 times basic cost of the animal, and I suppose that it also means that for the price animal can every command listed on p.37/38 + those my GM sees as approved for this level of training.
Yes, willpower multiplier counts..well...the same example shows Hellhound, fragin dual killing machine with LOS ranged flamethrower for 200000 Y... That is the price of two pursuit cars... not that much IMO

The problem is that at no point in the book do they say that an animal learns any task other than those it has been trained for. A ¥1,400 Seeing-Eye Dog will not "heel" or "sit" on command. The Hellhound, from that same example, will fight when told to... but it isn't Crate Trained.  If we assume that training an animal works by the level of training, then any dog trained as "Guide Dogs for Disabled" is also trainned for "Drug-Sniffing, Search and Rescue, ... Attacking to Disable..." (p.35). Holy drek, forget what I said about mugging blind people, they've got combat-ready service dogs. :o
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Ajax on (18:05:30/03-21-12)
Well there is no "+" in this
Its simply Base Cost * Training Level Multiplier * Willpower Multiplier.
That is all...one simple formula.

Quote from:  Running Wild, p. 35
To calculate the trained price, multiply
the  base  cost  of  the  critter  by  the  training  level
multiplier  and  then  by  the  Willpower  multiplier.

There is a "plus" in this, if you want to train the animal in more than one task...
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Sichr on (18:08:38/03-21-12)
LOL

For Dog with advanced training you get:
Quote from: Running Wild, p. 38
Instinctive: Sit, Lay Down, Crate Training, Bark on Command
Basic: Shake, Recall, Heel, Stay
Moderate:  Attack  or  Defend  on  Command,  Jump  Through
Hoop,  Follow  Obstacle  Course  (off-leash,  verbal/visual
commands), Dodge
Advanced:  Drug -Sniffing ,  Search  and  Rescue,  Tracking ,
Directed Bite Placement (e.g. bite gun-arm), Guide Dogs for
Disabled, Attacking to Disable, Attack (general or non-identified
metahumans) Without Handler Present

Against instincts training adds you:
Quote from: Running Wild, p. 39
Against Instincts: Combat Training (with loud gunfire), Not
Chasing a Running Target, Not Attacking a Threat

EDIT: Applying the point where you are trying to say that you have to pay for every one of those maneuvers specialy, this I would call attempt to break functional and clear rule. In that case, I think that you are just trolling ;)
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Ajax on (19:07:18/03-21-12)
It's not a clear rule, at least not very clear to me.  If I train the dog for each task individually, a basic guard dog costs more than an attack helicopter. If I am only meant to train the dog by training level, then every guide dog is also a combat-capable attack animal.  Clearly, their is something frakked up with both of those options...

Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Sichr on (19:10:45/03-21-12)
You are on your own then  8)

As everything, in rules, this is abstract. It works very well. If you use your skill to train animal, as per rules, you can increase whole Training level. If you ever trained a dog, you know that you are never training one command again and again...even for this Guide dog it is intensive training incorporating complex behavioral pattern.
Well, the real issue is...If you want to see this rule, otherwise completely understandable and clear even for me, czech, non-native english speaking person, then it is oly by your choice. BTW...take into consideration how long interval there is for advanced or against instincts training...and consider if that really takes 5 years to train good police dog...or if you want to say that a different way...is there any risk that the dof will die of age during the advanced training?
And...
Is this THAT crucial for your gameplay, if those abstract training levels mix somehow? If answer is yes, Id say you can change your GM so you can try to have some fun during the shadowrun game, not only math exercise and arguing all the time ;)
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: JustADude on (02:54:20/03-22-12)
It's not a clear rule, at least not very clear to me.  If I train the dog for each task individually, a basic guard dog costs more than an attack helicopter. If I am only meant to train the dog by training level, then every guide dog is also a combat-capable attack animal.  Clearly, their is something frakked up with both of those options...

Please show me where it explicitly says you have to pay separately for every single thing the animal is trained in, because I'm just not seeing it and, given the examples in the sidebar on page 37... which are the ONLY examples that are relevant, since they're the only examples that deal specifically with purchasing a pre-trained animal... there is absolutely no indication that this is the case.

The examples listed p38 are exactly that, examples of what is available at certain levels. You pay based on the most advanced skill the dog has, not for each individual skill.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Mason on (06:23:25/03-22-12)
It's not a clear rule, at least not very clear to me.  If I train the dog for each task individually, a basic guard dog costs more than an attack helicopter. If I am only meant to train the dog by training level, then every guide dog is also a combat-capable attack animal.  Clearly, their is something frakked up with both of those options...

Please show me where it explicitly says you have to pay separately for every single thing the animal is trained in, because I'm just not seeing it and, given the examples in the sidebar on page 37... which are the ONLY examples that are relevant, since they're the only examples that deal specifically with purchasing a pre-trained animal... there is absolutely no indication that this is the case.

The examples listed p38 are exactly that, examples of what is available at certain levels. You pay based on the most advanced skill the dog has, not for each individual skill.

He is trying to have multiple advanced training programs, or more specifically, ALL of THEM. A Seeing Eye Drug Sniffing, Search and Rescue, Tracking, Guard-Disable Attacker, trained-to-deal-with-gunfire superdog. That much training without augments would be insane and probably impossible. He also believes that the skills of the levels prior aren't included with teh higher levels.

Here is how I see it: If you buy seeing-eye training, your dog gets:
Instinctive: Sit, Lay Down, Crate Training, Bark on Command
Basic: Shake, Recall, Heel, Stay
Moderate:  Attack  or  Defend  on  Command,  Jump  Through
Hoop,  Follow  Obstacle  Course  (off-leash,  verbal/visual
commands), Dodge
Advanced:  Guide Dogs for Disabled
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: CanRay on (10:10:53/03-22-12)
Advanced:  Guide Dogs for Disabled
Can I get a thinking brain dog?
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: CitizenJoe on (10:39:31/03-22-12)
Here's the question.  Can you slip a skillwire system onto a dog cheaper than training?
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Mäx on (11:04:41/03-22-12)
"To calculate the trained price, multiply the base cost ("B") of the critter by the training level multiplier ("T") and then by the Willpower multiplier (W)." Running Wild, p. 35 (parentheical notes mine). That makes the forumla B*T*W, not B*T as you suggest.
Actually my formula was B*[T+T+T(etc.)]*W, while your was needlesly complex  B*T*W+ B*T*W+ B*T*W(etc.).
The end result is the same, except when you went and used a changing B instead of a static B.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: CanRay on (13:02:58/03-22-12)
Here's the question.  Can you slip a skillwire system onto a dog cheaper than training?
Depends, do you want to risky Fluffy turning into a killing machine from cyberpsychosis?
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (01:18:14/03-23-12)
Dont worry. That only happens to other peoples dogs. My Lazzie is always cuddly...
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Red on (09:22:19/03-25-12)
Plus, just slot Fido a sane little Lassie Personafix. ;)
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Black on (16:24:55/03-25-12)
Plus, just slot Fido a sane little Lassie Personafix. ;)

Love this.  Skill Wires and Personality Chips for animals!  How much fun could you have with this?  And then, is it hackable?  Could a technomancer hack the policy dogs skill wires and turn them against their KE trainers?  Dogs (or heck, Chimps) with demolition skill wires to disarm bombs?  Fluffy the Security Ninja Cat (razor blades optional extra)?  And more!
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: JustADude on (23:31:58/03-25-12)
Dogs (or heck, Chimps) with demolition skill wires to disarm bombs?

Possible, yeah, but I'm pretty sure it's probably cheaper, and better for PR, to use a standard Rigged drone for bomb disposal.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Black on (23:34:48/03-25-12)
bah! always with tech!  What happened to using animals for dangerious tasks!  >:(

Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: JustADude on (23:51:21/03-25-12)
bah! always with tech!  What happened to using animals for dangerious tasks!  >:(

Fido became more expensive than Wall-E, that's what. ;D
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Jaffer on (05:26:55/04-01-12)
bah! always with tech!  What happened to using animals for dangerious tasks!  >:(

Isn't that what our group does, use the animal for the painful stuff?
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Black on (17:26:07/04-01-12)
bah! always with tech!  What happened to using animals for dangerious tasks!  >:(

Isn't that what our group does, use the animal for the painful stuff?

True, they do tend to send in the regenerating kitty for the more dangerous jobs.  But Kitty hardly inexpensive... oh wait, when was the last time Shadowhawk divied up the loot?  ;)
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (09:35:29/04-02-12)
Sooner or later the kitty's gonna catch on...just saying....
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Jaffer on (07:15:21/04-03-12)
bah! always with tech!  What happened to using animals for dangerious tasks!  >:(

Isn't that what our group does, use the animal for the painful stuff?

True, they do tend to send in the regenerating kitty for the more dangerous jobs.  But Kitty hardly inexpensive... oh wait, when was the last time Shadowhawk divied up the loot?  ;)

As long as kitty is kept well fed and entertained, there's not going to be a problem.  ^.^
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Blue_Lion on (22:03:28/04-03-12)
I whould rule if i was running a game that any training needed to perform advance training for it to be effective whould be include guide dog whould heal sit and be house trained, but not attack. maybe even thow up a price for skill group training sit, house broken bark, when allarmed, heal and shake. (basic stuff.)

As to animals beeing abused when running wild came out made a elven beastmaster charter. An animal trainer, with a focus on the skill for training to raise the cap to 7. Then baght a bunch of untrained animals and trained them to help on runs lot of work but he was a profesenal trainer. Basicaly by the time i was done did not need a group for most runs bring a pair of merlin hawks ok mage is covered a bandit trained to ride in a back pack to open locks, some hell hounds with custom made armor or musle is covered. Only thing missing was the hacker face and gunslinger. Oh wait the trainer was a gun slinger.
Title: Re: Prices run wild in Running Wild
Post by: Kontact on (02:34:37/04-12-12)
This makes me miss Boxcars, my detective character's trained warform alligator.

"Why did a detective have a trained warform alligator," you ask?
Because if I have to choose between getting a sedan or a giant, chameleon-skinned alligator that can drop on people's heads with it's gecko-grip feet, you can bet your ass I'm taking a cab.  Correction, me and my alligator are taking a cab.

Pacer Stacktrain and Boxcars, together forever. <3333