Shadowrun

Off-topic => Off-off-topic => Topic started by: wylie on (17:46:48/01-09-12)

Title: DND....5th ED?
Post by: wylie on (17:46:48/01-09-12)
saw this:
http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/dungeons-dragons-plans-comeback-200249601.html

some people never learn...
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (17:49:17/01-09-12)
"OK, so let me get this straight, I tap this card to attack, do the damage listed and WHEN THE HELL DID I START PLAYING MAGIC???"
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: MisterJohnson on (18:03:45/01-09-12)
Meh.  I think I'll just continue using 3.5E
It has served me well to date, and see no reason to change.

Besides, I spend enough on SR books as it is.  :)
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Mirikon on (18:12:30/01-09-12)
My only comment? It can't be worse than 4th Ed... Right?
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (18:13:31/01-09-12)
My only comment? It can't be worse than 4th Ed... Right?
Yes, yes it can.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (18:37:57/01-09-12)
ugh...stick with pathfinder
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (19:04:07/01-09-12)
Or play Shadowrun.  ;D
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: MisterJohnson on (19:06:21/01-09-12)
Or play Shadowrun.  ;D

That's a wiz idea too.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (23:00:26/01-09-12)
I love me some 3.5E, but I would love to be able to speak with developers about a possible 5E. Because 4E was an abomination......

 >:(

Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (23:03:45/01-09-12)
I love me some 3.5E, but I would love to be able to speak with developers about a possible 5E. Because 4E was an abomination......

 >:(

Yep, D&D 4E, AKA The Biggest Mistake in the history of RPGs
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (23:11:04/01-09-12)
DND 3.5E is to "competitive algebra"

as

DND 4E is to "pretty pictures for twelve year-old recluses."

P.S. - Damn 12 year-olds, ruining America. :P
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Mirikon on (23:29:31/01-09-12)
D&D 4th, the New Coke of RPGs.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Kat9 on (23:44:23/01-09-12)
People complained that D&D4e was too hard. So in 5th edition they're going to send people around every week to play for you.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: FraustyTheSnowman on (12:14:00/01-10-12)
I'll take a look at 5th when it comes out, not going to outright say no tell I at least see the rules...but honestly, even if the rules are jawdroppingly amazing, and they straighten out their business practices, nothing short of a public appology for 4th edition is going to get me to think of wizards as anything but a crap corporation on the same level as walmart/amazon. Regardless of any of it, it's going to be rather hard for them to beat out Pathfinder/Paizo, least in my mind. The rules and setting are very well done (not perfect mind you, but solid), but the biggest hurdle is the customer service.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Maus on (14:58:25/01-10-12)
.....but I love Amazon. Everything I want...delivered to my door..


Yes, I would be an offsite decker..


Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (15:03:32/01-10-12)
I'll take a look at 5th when it comes out, not going to outright say no tell I at least see the rules...but honestly, even if the rules are jawdroppingly amazing, and they straighten out their business practices, nothing short of a public appology for 4th edition is going to get me to think of wizards as anything but a crap corporation on the same level as walmart/amazon. Regardless of any of it, it's going to be rather hard for them to beat out Pathfinder/Paizo, least in my mind. The rules and setting are very well done (not perfect mind you, but solid), but the biggest hurdle is the customer service.

Oh, I'll probably look at it, but WotC will have to do some miraculous stuff to ever get a penny of my money again. Especially after they decided to say 'screw what people want' and stop producing PDFs.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Simagal on (19:57:51/01-10-12)
Thanks Hasbro
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (20:27:12/01-10-12)
I want to know where my Transformers G1 RPG is.  :P
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: MisterJohnson on (01:12:18/01-11-12)
Oh, I'll probably look at it, but WotC will have to do some miraculous stuff to ever get a penny of my money again. Especially after they decided to say 'screw what people want' and stop producing PDFs.

>>>> [ Yes, I can honestly say that what helped save me from experiencing 4E was the lacking ability to buy the books as PDFs.  I have about 30 Shadowrun books and a few other RPG books in my laptop.  I carry them all with me around the world and am able to read and stay active developing my campaign no matter where the shadows take me.  PDF game books are wiz. ] <<<<
  -- Nacho (22:11:24 / 01-10-74)
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Mirikon on (01:19:34/01-11-12)
As far as not being able to find 4th ed D&D books on PDF, have none of you heard of Bittorrent?
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (01:24:34/01-11-12)
As far as not being able to find 4th ed D&D books on PDF, have none of you heard of Bittorrent?
*Cough*  No, none of us have ever heard of any kind of illegal downloads of copyrighted materials at all.  Nothing to see here.   >:(
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: JustADude on (01:47:05/01-11-12)
As far as not being able to find 4th ed D&D books on PDF, have none of you heard of Bittorrent?
*Cough*  No, none of us have ever heard of any kind of illegal downloads of copyrighted materials at all.  Nothing to see here.   >:(

However, as far as I'm aware, and of course depending on your jurisdiction, many places will allow you a legal "digital backup" of a legally licensed/purchased Intellectual Property that was acquired in DTF or CPF (Circular Plastic Format); a precedent set when people began ripping .MP3s off their CDs and playing them on their computers.

Aka, if you have the book you can legally scan it into a PDF yourself, or take the shortcut and download a digitization that another legal purchaser has so generously provided for his fellow legal purchasers' convenience.

The fact that evil scoundrels, who have not paid the rightful owners for the rights to use the product, latch onto this generous attempt at the aiding of a perfectly legal endeavor is a sad byproduct of the dishonesty inherent in human nature.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Mirikon on (01:54:36/01-11-12)
Hey, I buy my Shadowrun PDFs. For other systems, I check out a PDF, and if I like it, I'll grab a legal copy. Otherwise, I delete, and move on, not having shelled out good cred on bad merchandise.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: MisterJohnson on (01:57:32/01-11-12)
As far as not being able to find 4th ed D&D books on PDF, have none of you heard of Bittorrent?


>>>> [ That's some paydata that won't ever be found on any of my decks. Nacho don't do datasteals. ] <<<<
  -- Nacho (22:57:13 / 01-10-74)

Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: FraustyTheSnowman on (13:08:09/01-11-12)
Pathfinder PDFs are one of the main reasons I'm able to stay current with the Pathfinder rules. Of course, I'm spoiled rotten by their low cost/high quality, which makes purchasing Shadowrun PDFs very painful at times. I'll still get all the ones I'm interested in, it's just a much much slower process.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Red Canti on (22:41:41/01-11-12)
I dunno what's worse, the fact that I can't seem to escape this news no matter what board or forum I go to, or that the 3aboos are getting more bold.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: theKernel on (23:52:38/01-11-12)
DND 3.5E is to "competitive algebra"

as

DND 4E is to "pretty pictures for twelve year-old recluses."

P.S. - Damn 12 year-olds, ruining America. :P
No way did you say that, nearly every time I talk of the scourge of RPGs I say marketing towards fucking twelve year olds ruined the game I grew up on and every person that thought version four was a good idea for the players was a liar and I could rant and rant but I wish they would make a public apology for version 4
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: FastJack on (08:15:42/01-12-12)
Okay, before we start stoking any flames here, let's remember that a) it's just a game and b) this is a Shadowrun forum. If this turns into any type of "Edition Wars", I'll lock the thread.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Xzylvador on (10:04:37/01-12-12)
Quote from: From the article posted by OP
And if the publishers are wondering which customers to listen to, they might want to pay special attention to boys aged 13-17.

Yes...

this bodes well.

*sigh*
I used to kind of like that game.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (19:36:36/01-12-12)
DND 3.5E is to "competitive algebra"

as

DND 4E is to "pretty pictures for twelve year-old recluses."

P.S. - Damn 12 year-olds, ruining America. :P
No way did you say that, nearly every time I talk of the scourge of RPGs I say marketing towards fucking twelve year olds ruined the game I grew up on and every person that thought version four was a good idea for the players was a liar and I could rant and rant but I wish they would make a public apology for version 4

This is your brother... Lol.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: theKernel on (19:42:58/01-12-12)
What happened to biodigital jazz?
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (19:46:42/01-12-12)
I was tired of the Tron reference.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: theKernel on (19:48:55/01-12-12)
Oh >:( I feel tricked
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (19:51:19/01-12-12)
Lol sorry. Detroit sounds fun, btw. :P
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: theKernel on (19:52:27/01-12-12)
HEY! stop creeping on my adventure ideas!
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (19:57:53/01-12-12)
I was on that thread first haha.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (22:57:25/01-14-12)
By the way, D&D5E (or 4.5E) has been announced, and I'm going to be a playtester. I don't want to promote anything D&D on this site, so you'll have to figure it out on your own (not that its's hard; I'm not priveleged). But I'll keep you guys posted on when my playtesting will start, what it will entail, and how it's going!

It might not start until spring 2013 though; the timeline was unclear...  :-\
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: FastJack on (12:51:41/01-15-12)
By the way, D&D5E (or 4.5E) has been announced, and I'm going to be a playtester. I don't want to promote anything D&D on this site, so you'll have to figure it out on your own (not that its's hard; I'm not priveleged). But I'll keep you guys posted on when my playtesting will start, what it will entail, and how it's going!

It might not start until spring 2013 though; the timeline was unclear...  :-\
Actually, from what I've been reading, it sounds like play testing will start this spring sometime and they are hoping to release 5th Edition by GenCon 2013.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (14:31:41/01-15-12)
By the way, D&D5E (or 4.5E) has been announced, and I'm going to be a playtester. I don't want to promote anything D&D on this site, so you'll have to figure it out on your own (not that its's hard; I'm not priveleged). But I'll keep you guys posted on when my playtesting will start, what it will entail, and how it's going!

It might not start until spring 2013 though; the timeline was unclear...  :-\
Actually, from what I've been reading, it sounds like play testing will start this spring sometime and they are hoping to release 5th Edition by GenCon 2013.

Yep. Caught that lol.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Outrider45 on (21:27:43/01-15-12)
There is limited playtesting going on now, primarily at cons like Winter Fantasy in Indiana. The mass playtest begins in the spring.

SimSensical: you got confirmation from WotC for the playtest already? I know they had sign-ups back with the announcement but I didn't know they had started sending out the info and NDR's yet.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (21:29:56/01-15-12)
There is limited playtesting going on now, primarily at cons like Winter Fantasy in Indiana. The mass playtest begins in the spring.

SimSensical: you got confirmation from WotC for the playtest already? I know they had sign-ups back with the announcement but I didn't know they had started sending out the info and NDR's yet.

No, no info. I just signed up.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Red Canti on (00:23:27/01-17-12)
DND 3.5E is to "competitive algebra"

as

DND 4E is to "pretty pictures for twelve year-old recluses."

P.S. - Damn 12 year-olds, ruining America. :P
No way did you say that, nearly every time I talk of the scourge of RPGs I say marketing towards fucking twelve year olds ruined the game I grew up on and every person that thought version four was a good idea for the players was a liar and I could rant and rant but I wish they would make a public apology for version 4
(http://www.gifsoup.com/view2/2071746/spock-eyebrow-raise-o.gif)
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Malex on (04:30:24/01-17-12)
DND 3.5E is to "competitive algebra"

as

DND 4E is to "pretty pictures for twelve year-old recluses."

P.S. - Damn 12 year-olds, ruining America. :P

They're not ruining the world, they're running it.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Mirikon on (21:27:31/01-17-12)
DND 3.5E is to "competitive algebra"

as

DND 4E is to "pretty pictures for twelve year-old recluses."

P.S. - Damn 12 year-olds, ruining America. :P

They're not ruining the world, they're running it.

There's a difference?
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (10:00:20/01-19-12)
DND 3.5E is to "competitive algebra"

as

DND 4E is to "pretty pictures for twelve year-old recluses."

P.S. - Damn 12 year-olds, ruining America. :P

They're not ruining the world, they're running it.

There's a difference?

If you're twelve, yes. If you're anyone else, no.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Sichr on (12:01:00/01-19-12)
orly?
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (14:01:57/01-19-12)
orly?

lolumadbro?
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Sichr on (15:02:06/01-19-12)
Y U 5ED?   :D
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Tonatiuh on (08:03:49/01-20-12)
Y U 5ED?   :D

:D +1
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Mirikon on (14:06:24/01-20-12)
*blackhammers everyone using chatspeak*
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (14:14:18/01-20-12)
*blackhammers everyone using chatspeak*

*joins in on the blackhammer'ing of those using chatspeak* Double Team!!!
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (16:12:34/01-20-12)
I always knew that the Matrix was where Hammerspace came from.  :P
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (17:15:05/01-20-12)
Oh, and:
(http://llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/images/dndsucks.jpg)
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: JustADude on (17:33:25/01-20-12)
*blackhammers everyone using chatspeak*

*joins in on the blackhammer'ing of those using chatspeak* Double Team!!!

*pulls out his own Blackhammer* Triple-Tech Combo Attack!!!
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Ryo on (20:52:54/01-20-12)
*Walks in with a few gallons of gasoline for this here bonfire.*

So, have any of you 4e haters actually PLAYED any 4th? I started in the days of 3.5e, then moved to pathfinder, and was just as adamant against 4 when I heard about it as you guys are now. Then I actually played the damn game, and hey, I prefer it now. It's a hell of a lot more fun to play than 3.5 or pathfinder ever were. I've yet to meet a 4e detractor who has actually played 4e extensively. It's a good game, though it has major issues in the encounter building department. Fun as a player, nightmare for a GM.

As far as 5e goes, as long as they streamline encounter building, I'll try it out at least.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (20:59:29/01-20-12)
*Walks in with a few gallons of gasoline for this here bonfire.*

So, have any of you 4e haters actually PLAYED any 4th? I started in the days of 3.5e, then moved to pathfinder, and was just as adamant against 4 when I heard about it as you guys are now. Then I actually played the damn game, and hey, I prefer it now. It's a hell of a lot more fun to play than 3.5 or pathfinder ever were. I've yet to meet a 4e detractor who has actually played 4e extensively. It's a good game, though it has major issues in the encounter building department. Fun as a player, nightmare for a GM.

As far as 5e goes, as long as they streamline encounter building, I'll try it out at least.

Do you count having two or three campaigns that lasted two or three months each (playing once or twice a week)? I gave it a shot, and found it lacking in every way. The classes are basically all one class with slightly different appearances for the "powers". It exacerbates the main problem D&D has in that the only way to advance your character at a decent rate is to slaughter everything you meet. Almost all non-combat skills were removed from the game and those few that remain had their usage changed to be more combative.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (21:00:16/01-20-12)
I played 4th Ed.  I couldn't get past the fact that I was somehow playing Magic with Minis.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: MisterJohnson on (21:04:33/01-20-12)
I did not play 4e, because after buying so many books for 3.5e - my wallet was dry and I could not stand the idea of sinking yet more money into that system.  Aside from asking all my friends to buy the new books too.  So, here we sit with 3.5e, happily playing after all these years.

I'll play test 5e if I am offered the opportunity, if only for the ability to play it and see what all the hub-bub is about.  Will it make me want to re-up my library?  We'll see.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (21:07:13/01-20-12)
That's why I like Shadowrun.  Fluff barely changes, even if the stats do.  ;D

And damn but the books are filled with crunchy fluff!  ;D
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Ryo on (21:08:14/01-20-12)
*Walks in with a few gallons of gasoline for this here bonfire.*

So, have any of you 4e haters actually PLAYED any 4th? I started in the days of 3.5e, then moved to pathfinder, and was just as adamant against 4 when I heard about it as you guys are now. Then I actually played the damn game, and hey, I prefer it now. It's a hell of a lot more fun to play than 3.5 or pathfinder ever were. I've yet to meet a 4e detractor who has actually played 4e extensively. It's a good game, though it has major issues in the encounter building department. Fun as a player, nightmare for a GM.

As far as 5e goes, as long as they streamline encounter building, I'll try it out at least.

Do you count having two or three campaigns that lasted two or three months each (playing once or twice a week)? I gave it a shot, and found it lacking in every way. The classes are basically all one class with slightly different appearances for the "powers". It exacerbates the main problem D&D has in that the only way to advance your character at a decent rate is to slaughter everything you meet. Almost all non-combat skills were removed from the game and those few that remain had their usage changed to be more combative.

Really? You like 3.5 and think 4e has classes that are too similar to eachother? Every class in 4e, even the ones in the same role, play very different. Unlike 3.5, where your BAB basically determined everything. There is so little difference between a wizard or a sorcerer, a fighter or a knight, a rogue or a scout. The only places you really get diversity is when you start multi-classing and taking prestige classes out the ass. And yeah, 4e can't really do that, but it doesn't need to in order to have an interesting character.

As far as advancement goes, that's entirely up to DM fiat. If they want you to kill all the local wildlife to level up, that's what you're gonna do. If they give you XP for plot development and skill challenges, then that works too. You can't really fault the system for the type of game your DM decides to run.

I will agree that the removal of basically all non-combat mechanics was fucking weird at first, but that's what good old fashioned imagination is for. Do you really need 5 ranks in Profession (barber) to say your character likes to cut hair when he's not out adventuring? No, not at all.

Quote
I played 4th Ed.  I couldn't get past the fact that I was somehow playing Magic with Minis.

I fail to see the resemblance. Or do you mean that fortune card shit they added with essentials? Cause yeah, my group avoided that crap like the plague.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (21:14:31/01-20-12)
All in all, I found the whole thing utterly and entirely uninteresting and watered down. All just for the purpose of marketing it to the MMO crowd.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (21:36:33/01-20-12)
I fail to see the resemblance. Or do you mean that fortune card shit they added with essentials? Cause yeah, my group avoided that crap like the plague.
"So, I tap this card to attack with and WHEN THE HELL DID I START PLAYING MAGIC???"
All in all, I found the whole thing utterly and entirely uninteresting and watered down. All just for the purpose of marketing it to the MMO crowd.
Yeah, I wasn't exposed to any backstory, even what little was given in the PHB and DMG in 3.0/3.5.  Nothing, just "Go and kill ten snowmoose."  Bleh.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Ryo on (21:50:37/01-20-12)
I fail to see the resemblance. Or do you mean that fortune card shit they added with essentials? Cause yeah, my group avoided that crap like the plague.
"So, I tap this card to attack with and WHEN THE HELL DID I START PLAYING MAGIC???"
All in all, I found the whole thing utterly and entirely uninteresting and watered down. All just for the purpose of marketing it to the MMO crowd.
Yeah, I wasn't exposed to any backstory, even what little was given in the PHB and DMG in 3.0/3.5.  Nothing, just "Go and kill ten snowmoose."  Bleh.

Tap what card? The hell you talking about? I don't remember any mana or lands or creatures or sorceries or instants or anything remotely resembling a CCG at all. The Fortune Cards thing is the only thing I can think of.

And you weren't exposed to any backstory? It's DnD. Pick your poison, Faerun, Greyhawk, Eberron, Dark Sun, you've got every edition all the way back padding your fluff and history, yo.  "Go kill ten snowmoose" just sounds like bad DMing.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: CanRay on (22:17:06/01-20-12)
Well, until I get exposed to a good DM...  I'll stick with other games, thankyouverymuch.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Mirikon on (22:41:44/01-20-12)
So, have any of you 4e haters actually PLAYED any 4th? ... I've yet to meet a 4e detractor who has actually played 4e extensively.
Hey, I'm a 4e detractor that played 4e extensively. My local 3.5 group switched over to 4th when it came out. I also played a few PBP games online at various levels, up through the time that Manual of the Planes came out. I also had a subscription to the website, which allowed me to have the character builder, with all the up to date items. Yippie skippy.

When it first came out, I went in with an open mind. Right away, I noticed that combat was a great deal more balanced than in 3.5, and I agree with people that that is a good thing, in general. However, my problems with the system grew the more I played it, and I tried to do things that, in 3.5, were all but impossible in 4th.

To say that social skills and utility spells were castrated is to be understating the fact. The ritual system made any utility spells that were around too expensive to be worth their time. Skills in general lost their punch, as you had a set number of skills you got a +5 proficiency bonus to, and the others were all just attribute+half your level. None of the strategy of building into being a master pickpocket, or a silver tongued orator.

One of the hallmarks of 3.5 was customization. I'm not talking just in regards to multiclassing and prestige classes, though those were utterly gelded in the transition. I'm talking about even customization within a class. You look at any two members of the same class in 3.5, and they could easily be worlds apart. The difference between a fighter with a sword and shield, and a fighter trained with the spiked chain might seem insignificant at first, until the fighter with the sword and shield begins utilizing improved shield bash while the spiked chain wielder improved trips you. But in all the classes that were more complex (which is almost all of them) there were a lot of different ways to go. There were rogues and bards who played trapsmiths, who focused on social skills, or who simply focused on ruining your day as thoroughly as possible. There were rangers who could shoot the eye of a wolf at a hundred feet, and those who were dual-wielding bringers of death. But with spellcasters, there was the widest range. Two wizards of the same level may have a couple spells in common, but for the most part their spellbooks would be worlds apart. Clerics could change their loadout from day to day.

At first, getting rid of Vancian casting didn't bug me. Afterall, it meant my low level wizard didn't suffer from the fact that, after a couple spells, I was little better than an unarmored commoner with a stick, while at any point a kobold could breathe hard in my direction and I was dead. But after a while, it began to annoy me. One of the good things about Vancian casting is that it allows for greater flexibility day to day, and it adds an element of strategy to the game. A wizard who picked fire spells having to go against a fire elemental was boned. But that same spell setup against a white dragon meant you had the edge. Safe in town for a couple days? You can drop some of your combat spells, and prepare things like Identify or other utility spells to help the party recover from their trip to the dungeon. The same with a Cleric being able to leave off the combat spells for a day, in order to cast Restoration a few times after the Succubus got hold of the Bard. The way 4e works, however, you eliminate all of that, and say, "well, do I use the power/spell/ability that does 2d6+ability damage, with the secondary effect, the one that does 3d6 damage, or do I pop a daily for 5d6 damage?" It doesn't matter what class you're playing, or what powers you have, they're pretty much all like that.

Magic items used to be wonderful things, which you could mix and match, and even combine in interesting ways. Who hasn't had a high level character that had a unique magic item. Perhaps you named your +2 Vile Frost whip-dagger "Winter's Breath", or you had a Hat of Disguise that incorporated a Phylactery of Faithfulness, and you called it "Blessing of Sune". That Cloak of Charisma +4 with the Cloak of Resistance +2 that had an Endure Elements effect could be the "Cloak of the Tundra Priest". In 4e, the magic items just don't have the same soul.

And... well, I could go on, but I think that is sufficient. I have fifteen 4e books on my shelf right now, from when I played it, and I can honestly say that I am quite firmly in the camp of 4E detractors now.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: theKernel on (12:18:22/01-21-12)
Most well phrased explanation I've heard^^
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Xzylvador on (13:49:51/01-21-12)
I used to be a 4th edition player just like you, but then I took an arrow in the leg.*


Tried it for like half a year, hoping it got better with supplementals, errata's and "getting used to". And it only got worse. It really became pokemon meets MtG with minis. All the flavor was taken out of it and any flavor I tried to put into it by trying to make myself belief things that quite weren't got sucked out of it the second it collided with one of the horrible rules mechanics.


* I also dislike the Bethesda "RPGs" since Oblivion.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: All4BigGuns on (14:11:34/01-21-12)
I believe that makes the consensus that the majority of "detractors" have played it and discovered through that just how crappy the system is.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: JustADude on (16:47:52/01-21-12)
I believe that makes the consensus that the majority of "detractors" have played it and discovered through that just how crappy the system is.

And, in related news to that I have THIS LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ). I think it sums up my feelings on the entire situation quite well.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: street.mage on (23:50:14/01-27-12)
*Walks in with a few gallons of gasoline for this here bonfire.*

So, have any of you 4e haters actually PLAYED any 4th? I started in the days of 3.5e, then moved to pathfinder, and was just as adamant against 4 when I heard about it as you guys are now. Then I actually played the damn game, and hey, I prefer it now. It's a hell of a lot more fun to play than 3.5 or pathfinder ever were. I've yet to meet a 4e detractor who has actually played 4e extensively. It's a good game, though it has major issues in the encounter building department. Fun as a player, nightmare for a GM.

As far as 5e goes, as long as they streamline encounter building, I'll try it out at least.

Hi, Ryo.  I'm street.mage.  And I'm a D&D 4E Detractor.  I'm actually a D&D detractor.  Wow, those statements make it sound like I'm at an AA type meeting for old D&D players.  Anyway, I started playing D&D 15 years ago (hey, this isn't getting better) in 2nd E.  I hated it the first time, but was hooked after that initial Keep of the Borderlands module (Ugh).  I followed 2E to 3E, built up a large pewter miniature army, many of which are not painted still to this day (like most gamers, right?), followed that to 3.5, and had EVERY BOOK out there.  Sold them all on the onset of 4E (might still have a few though out in the garage), and was really looking forward to it.  Bought that first "folder" adventure with the "quick start rules" and such as the teaser, then bought the collector's 3 pack set with the 3 core books, preordered it, and if I recollect, picked it up a day before "release."  I moved shortly thereafter, started a game that June 2008, and ran a long campaign.  I know I had every plastic dragon, every beholder miniature, and almost every thing "useful," including almost the entire Harbinger first set of plastic crack.  I had well over 1000 miniatures.  I bought two huge storage cabinets at Lowe's to house them all (granted, the gargantuan dragon and colossal red took up like a shelf) and bought the monthly "Dungeon and Dragon" magazines with character builder, monster builder, etc.  I think I still have it downloaded on my CPU.

When I first started the campaign, it was fresh.  Everything was balanced and orderly.  The plastic miniatures along side the painted pewter (I have an art degree, I'm pretty good or so I've been told) looked great.  The story line was superb, characters were fleshed out well, powers were being flung all over the combat grid, etc.

Then I played SR 4E.  What the frag is this D&D nonsense??  One of my players was a 1st edition SR guy from way back, and had ran a 3E game several years prior; but there I played a decker that wasn't good at much of anything in combat - had a pistol and rolled like 5 dice to shoot it.  I felt as useful as Princess Leia's little toy gun in combat.  I was good at looking up stuff in the Matrix, but that was about it.  In the 4E game, I played a troll bounty hunter/infiltrator/long range specialist and had the time of my life.  I was instantly hooked on the background, the world, the flavor.  D&D was fun, but it was like I was eating frozen pizza for my entire life and enjoying it, then got a gourmet pizza and the frozen variety just wasn't up to snuff anymore.  I started seeing how 4E D&D was so...bland.  I actually missed the complexity of the 3.5 conglomeration, and desired something a little more challenging of a character, of a campaign, of a game that was more than just a crazy realm of combat.

What's wrong with 4E?  Nothing.  In a vacuum, nothing.  It's a different game than SR or 2.0E D&D, 3.0D&D, 3.5D&D, WOD, and Pathfinder.  In comparison?  It's too balanced.  Someone else mentioned that basically the powers were the same from class to class to class, just different flavor....that's very true.  A fighter deals W + str with sliding strike (making up a name, don't really recall this crap, but could look it up if necessary) and a mage casts Magic Missile 2d4 + Cha (That one, I remember).  Weapons were typically 1d8, avg 4.5 dmg + 3/4 Str, total of 7.5 with a slide a square.  MM rolled 2d4, avg 2.5, or 5 for both dice + Cha, again 3/4 was the typical bonus, sometimes 5 if you were playing the powergamed race and class together (elf wizard, in example), that's 8.5 dmg.  So fighter deals 7.5 avg damage with a forced movement of a square, mage deals 8.5 avg damage.  That's a difference of one damage.  Sure, you could set up powers and do teamwork and ladedadeda make a tactical combat scenario for 3 hours, but that's just stats on a page.  There isn't any flavor.  It's all generic, and it looses it's appeal after a few slings of the "at will" spells or sword stuff.  Skill challenges were a nightmare, and that's a big reason on why the dude that had his name on the DMG got canned.  They just didn't make sense.  Skills are a backseat to combat.  Fluff is practically non-existent.  All magic items are combat oriented.  There just didn't seem to be enough cool magical items or specialty items.  4th edition to me is a tactical open ended board game with a myriad of options for character powers.  Fleshed out characters didn't seem rewarded enough to be creative - they sit in the mold of combat with the lawful stupid paladin that the 15 yr old boy is playing.  To me, the role-playing was completely different than in WoD, SR, and other storytelling games.  Because the books had nothing but the rules as it's focus, the fluff was from Dragon magazine (and even still, half of it's crap was cruchy numbers and new powers that barely looked different than the last -  ooohhh, the fighter can take an at will instead and shield bump him for 1d6 +str plus push two squares!  That's exciting!) and people's imagination, which left the individual game and story up to the players and DMs.  The rules didn't support creative gameplay, rather, they seemed to work around it.

Now those are my opinions.  The game system is only part of the equation on having a good time or fun.  Part of it is time to play long enough.  Much of it is who is running the game, and who is playing in it.  I'm sure Keith Baker would be an awesome DM, but for a bunch of boring guys that aren't inventive or have character thoughts on why the character would take such an action, his skills would be a poor match for these guys.  It'd be like putting a rocket scientist as a 5th grade math teacher.  Could he do it?  Probably.  But wouldn't his skills be put better, like i dunno, using science on rockets?  The players you are with also make an impact.  Bill, the guy that farts a lot and never showers is going to make a sad gaming experience regardless of who is running it, what system it is, if it's a cool story, so on and so forth.  I personally believe that EVERY game can be fun, every game people can have more fun playing than others; it's just what appeals to that group, their maturity, their wants and desires from the game, etc.  What matters is if every one is having a good time, because if they aren't, what's the point?  A system however, it's applications, appeal, easiness to learn and apply - all makes a game experience "more fun" however.  This is why I think SR is a better game; it's appeal and applications and fun way to create characters make 4E D&D look like skipping rocks.  If skipping rocks is your cup of tea, great.  Have a blast.  But I came to role-play, not roll-play.  It's fun to do both, but not one exclusively.

I do play Magic BTW, and enjoy it.  I also sold 80-90% of my miniatures, and all of my 4E books.  I'll give 5E a look, probably pick up the core books and even play it.  But SR is king, and this new game system had better knock my socks off for me to set SR aside for more than a couple of months.  I'm GMing a new SR game now, and it is daunting - but it's so much fun and exciting.  Except for fighting monsters in 2E when I was 18, I haven't felt this way ever.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: Kylen on (22:01:05/01-28-12)
As a player myself:

I have a loathing for 4e. I tried it. Three times. I saw no need for the sheet the first two DMs handed me, and the third just asked what class I was going to use and gave me a ring of cards for a fourth level character. I didn't feel like I was playing D&D, I felt like I was playing WoW the Table Top Game. The story was more Quest Hub then actually "find your next hook". Hell, there wasn't even much a story, so much as running around from encounter to encounter.

Then again, I'm a Shadowrun/Pathfinder fan. And that's my 2 nuyen, other then I won't trust 5e for as far as I can toss the WotC building.
Title: Re: DND....5th ED?
Post by: FastJack on (18:53:10/01-29-12)
Well, I think the message has been spoken and spoken again and again. Since we are now officially beating a dead horse, this thread serves no other pupose.