Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Lacklusterbrown on (13:15:08/02-11-19)

Title: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Lacklusterbrown on (13:15:08/02-11-19)
So yeah, just like it says on the tin: I'm a fairly new player (to SR5 at least), and I'm writing up my first awakened character. The majority of my spells are health spells, manipulation spells, and combat spells focused on non lethal force, but there is a glaring issue: I have nothing that can handle Drones and vehicles. I have one spell left that I can pick as well as the 5 karma to cover the cost, I just don't know what spell to get that will best handle Drones. Would love to hear what advice you chummers have to offer!
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (13:31:48/02-11-19)
Lightning Bolt or Lightning Ball.

Electrical damage is always P damage to vehicles & drones.  That's a big deal because they flat out ignore stun damage.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: fseperent on (13:35:41/02-11-19)
Gravity or Gravity Well from Forbidden Arcana could ground small airborne drones easily enough.
A Destroy spell from Shadow Grimoire  for specific threats.
Maybe Levitate to keep groundcraft from moving.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (14:18:35/02-11-19)
I like lightning bolt for a direct approach, but ice sheet, physical barrier for causing accidents and a more indirect approach.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Michael Chandra on (14:21:26/02-11-19)
I wouldn't do direct Manipulation, since that faces an OR of 15 dice. So Levitate won't work. Indirect approaches are better, such as forcing a crash test with a Physical Barrier.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: SunRunner on (14:54:00/02-11-19)
Pretty much any of the indirect combat spells that deal physical damage will work vs Drones and Vehicles. Lighting and Acid are 2 of the best. Lighting because you inflict half of what ever physical damage you deal as matrix damage which matters vs Big vehicles like City Masters and such that have 8 matrix damage boxes and 20+ physical damage boxes. Acid because of the stacking armor degradation which makes easier for you and your team mates to push damage on future attacks.

As a general rule any decent force 5+ indirect spell that you can land will toast anything but the biggest and most hardened drones. Its only the big vehicles that have been up armoured that will really cause problems.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (15:03:40/02-11-19)
I wouldn't do direct Manipulation, since that faces an OR of 15 dice. So Levitate won't work. Indirect approaches are better, such as forcing a crash test with a Physical Barrier.

Does it?  I know previous editions were explicit on this but some spells create their own test and the barrier in levitate seems to be weight. Other direct manipulation spells explicitly mention the OR test, levitate doesn't.  You could go with the general rule, but I felt the lack of mentioning it was intentional and its resisted by living creatures or just not being able to hit the weight limit. That being said its a huge barrier, you'd have to be absurdly powerful to levitate a vehicle, though i guess you can manage some drones. You'd need like a 30 dice spell casting pool to levitate a car though.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (16:16:21/02-11-19)
The way I see it is OR always applies unless the spell (or spell category) specifies a different kind of resistance test.  Even spells that don't specify any resistance test at all, like Armor.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Michael Chandra on (16:33:48/02-11-19)
Since Physical Manipulation 'usually' uses OR, unless it's something that doesn't make sense, I'd keep OR in there. It seems weird to me for Drones to not be able to resist Levitate or Bind.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: fseperent on (17:33:54/02-11-19)
Here's the test for Levitate:
You have to beat a threshold equal to the subjectís mass divided by 200 kilograms,
rounded up.

If youíre trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being
can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body.

Easier to stomach than OR on cars or smaller.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (21:28:39/02-11-19)
Since Physical Manipulation 'usually' uses OR, unless it's something that doesn't make sense, I'd keep OR in there. It seems weird to me for Drones to not be able to resist Levitate or Bind.

Well some spells like bind just don't target attributes they have, so you can't reduce a car or drones agility as it does not have one so I kind of assume its just unaffected.  assuming you use OR you'd be lucky to get 1 hit on tech items so you'd be unable to levitate a 5 KG item, even fairly natural items would have to be in the normal lift range in which case just have the orc/troll lift it don't waste your drain.  The spell is designed to pick crap up and can't do it at a basic level with OR in play. Given that other spells include the OR test in their description, lacking it in levitate to me is indicative that it is not supposed to have a OR test.  Its test is purely weight based.(unless targeting or held bu a person)
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Tarislar on (22:37:55/02-11-19)
Lightning Bolt or Lightning Ball.

Electrical damage is always P damage to vehicles & drones.  That's a big deal because they flat out ignore stun damage.



I like lightning bolt for a direct approach, but ice sheet, physical barrier for causing accidents and a more indirect approach.




Pretty much any of the indirect combat spells that deal physical damage will work vs Drones and Vehicles. Lighting and Acid are 2 of the best. Lighting because you inflict half of what ever physical damage you deal as matrix damage which matters vs Big vehicles like City Masters and such that have 8 matrix damage boxes and 20+ physical damage boxes. Acid because of the stacking armor degradation which makes easier for you and your team mates to push damage on future attacks.

As a general rule any decent force 5+ indirect spell that you can land will toast anything but the biggest and most hardened drones. Its only the big vehicles that have been up armoured that will really cause problems.


I'll "DITTO" what SSDR, Shinobi, & Sun have all said.

My top choice would be Lightning Bolt/Ball lighting.

The Stun = Physical = Matrix nature of L-Bolt is a very nice feature & I favor Bolt because the lesser drain allows you to pump up the damage higher.

Now, that said,  Ball Lightning has the effect of removing any "dodge" attempt & depending on the target they might be able to pull off more than 5 hits which is the equal to the Thresh Hold for the AE (3) + 2 less force.  Its also going to be more effective if you have a pack of close together drones. 

So,  dealers choice really between the 2.

As stated Acid is also a nice choice too, but I'd favor Lighting a bit more.

It would help to know what your other spells are, but, based on what you've said about being non-lethal & non-combat oriented, I would say a nice AE might be the best option to end carloads of goons in a single shot.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Mirikon on (22:52:49/02-11-19)
My 'go to' for blasting drones and vehicles? Indirect combat spells are my preferred, since you're going to do more damage against a Bulldog with Lightning Bolt than Powerbolt. Direct spells, after all, oppose your spellcasting with the vehicle's Body, and only your net hits are damage. So the Bulldog can easily be rolling more dice than you are, whereas the indirect spells have a defense roll, with net hits adding to damage, which are then resisted by the body+armor. That still isn't a great combo, but you use Force as the AP, which can make a big difference.

Trying to shoot a van (especially an armored van) with spells is a dicey proposition. But there are better tricks for mages. Here's my top 10 from just the core book, in no particular order:

1. Physical barrier at an angle to the road, forming a ramp, attempting to either launch the vehicle, tip it over, or otherwise make it crash.
2. Ice Slick in the road to force a Crash Test.
3. Do they have windows open to shoot at you? Fireball INSIDE the vehicle.
4. Illusions. If there is a metahuman driver, they will almost certainly react to a car coming out of nowhere at an intersection, looking like it will hit them.
5. Get a spirit to manifest inside the vehicle and kill the driver.
6. Remove sense (Sight) on the driver.
7. Light, blinding the driver.
8. Ignite on the driver
9. Influence on the driver (jerk the wheel sharply to one side as far as they can)
10. Armor on the vehicle you're driving, when you go to ram.

As you might notice, most of these have to deal with defeating the driver, or forcing a vehicle to make crash tests, rather than actually blasting the vehicle itself. That is because I come to Shadowrun by way of D&D, and any long time D&D player will tell you that you do not challenge a Barbarian's Fort save, a Rogue's Ref save, or a Wizard's Will save. That's just a bad idea all the way around. Instead, you hit a barbarian's Will save, since most of them skimp on mental stats. You go after a Rogue's Fort save, because they don't typically have much in the way of Constitution. You attack the Wizard's Ref save, because there is no way in hell he's got good physical stats.

Don't attack a person's strengths unless you literally have no other choice. Hit them where they're weak.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (23:09:28/02-11-19)
... any long time D&D player will tell you that you do not challenge a Barbarian's Fort save, a Rogue's Ref save, or a Wizard's Will save. That's just a bad idea all the way around. Instead, you hit a barbarian's Will save, since most of them skimp on mental stats. You go after a Rogue's Fort save, because they don't typically have much in the way of Constitution. You attack the Wizard's Ref save, because there is no way in hell he's got good physical stats.

Don't attack a person's strengths unless you literally have no other choice. Hit them where they're weak.

This is all very true.  Another way to put it is Drones are the Rock to Magic's Scissors.  Generally, using magic to deal with drones is an uphill battle.  The Paper to the Drones' Rock is having your hacker mess with them/the Rigger.

But if you must answer drones with magic, remember that drones (and vehicles) cannot suffer Stun damage.  They literally ignore it.  Being unliving objects they're flat out immune to mana spells.  Since they're drones, they also ignore physical spells that deal stun damage.  Even worse, if they have enough armor to render your Physical damage down to Stun, they STILL ignore your spell because it's turned into Stun damage.  Drones are specifically called out as getting 15 dice on the Object Resistance chart, as well.

That's why Lightning Ball/Bolt is trebly good.  It can reliably (or automatically, in the case of AOE) hit. It WILL force a soak roll as electrical damage is always Physical to drones.  And if they have a ginormous CM for whatever reason, you're simultaneously scoring damage on their tiny Matrix CM's as well.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Tarislar on (23:28:20/02-11-19)
Also in the core book IIRC it says people in a vehicle take damage from AE as well as the vehicle.

So even if the vehicle resists, the crew will likely get fried, I forget where I read it but its in there in the Vehicle Combat section IIRC.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:37:00/02-12-19)
Here's the test for Levitate:
You have to beat a threshold equal to the subject’s mass divided by 200 kilograms,
rounded up.

If you’re trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being
can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body.

Easier to stomach than OR on cars or smaller.
So what you're saying is that you believe Levitate against non-living beings should be completely unresisted? The only way to resist Levitate is being alive?
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (14:15:31/02-12-19)
Here's the test for Levitate:
You have to beat a threshold equal to the subjectís mass divided by 200 kilograms,
rounded up.

If youíre trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being
can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body.

Easier to stomach than OR on cars or smaller.
So what you're saying is that you believe Levitate against non-living beings should be completely unresisted? The only way to resist Levitate is being alive?

My reading is that yes, objects have a threshold to beat based on weight, not a resistance test. I think that is intentional so levitate can do what its primary purpose is, which is lift heavy shit with magic. If you faced a OR test you'd lift either nothing or objects you could probably move around anyways, so why are you using a high force spell.  In 3e(maybe 2e my memory is shit) it had a table where it explicitly excluded levitate from the OR test. Obviously different editions and sometimes the effective copy and paste of language across editions causes issues, like magic fingers which also wouldn't face OR(though for a different reason) IMO should probably also have a reaction attribute as some physical skills that could be controlled by telekinetic hands use reaction, but when the spell was written there was no reaction attribute. So maybe the intent in this edition is for it to face OR and the wording was not updated, but the rules IMO are that it doesn't.  They are very explicit when OR is faced in a manipulation spell in the main book, so my assumption is the intent and rule is that when they don't mention it its not faced.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (14:34:38/02-12-19)
Every spell must have a resistance test; it's a mechanical necessity.

Otherwise spells without them are immune to Counterspelling.  (of course, that particular rule is STILL a problem in 2019 with regards to Indirect Area Combat spells; near as I can tell the generally accepted House Rule for counterspelling Fireballs is to just add the dice to the soak roll rather than the nonexistent defense test).

I'm of the opinion that spells like Levitate and Armor do have to overcome Object Resistance BECAUSE no resistance is given, not in spite of it. 
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: fseperent on (14:54:20/02-12-19)
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (15:04:49/02-12-19)
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?

Well let's presume there is no OR. How then does a mage counterspell you levitating the keys?  And if it's impossible, why should Levitate be impossible to counterspell?
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: fseperent on (16:54:33/02-12-19)
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?

Well let's presume there is no OR. How then does a mage counterspell you levitating the keys?  And if it's impossible, why should Levitate be impossible to counterspell?

Levitate is a sustained spell so dispelling applies.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (17:25:43/02-12-19)
But how would the mechanics work for a Counterspell applied at the moment Levitate was cast?  (if not being a bonus to the OR)
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:41:22/02-12-19)
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?

Well let's presume there is no OR. How then does a mage counterspell you levitating the keys?  And if it's impossible, why should Levitate be impossible to counterspell?

Levitate is a sustained spell so dispelling applies.
So you're saying Levitate cannot be Counterspelled, only Dispelled?
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: fseperent on (17:54:48/02-12-19)
But how would the mechanics work for a Counterspell applied at the moment Levitate was cast?  (if not being a bonus to the OR)

As a negative to the # of hits the Levitate scored.
If the number of hits on Levitate drops below threshold, the object drops.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (18:28:46/02-12-19)
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?

Well let's presume there is no OR. How then does a mage counterspell you levitating the keys?  And if it's impossible, why should Levitate be impossible to counterspell?

Levitate is a sustained spell so dispelling applies.
So you're saying Levitate cannot be Counterspelled, only Dispelled?

A object not in the control of someone can't be counter-spelled. If it is in someones possession they can resist so a counter spell would work. It wouldn't be the only instance in this edition of spells avoiding counter spelling, maybe they should fix counter spelling someday.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Reaver on (19:01:20/02-12-19)
Keep in mind too, you need LOS to the target of the spell... (and levitate had a range of touch, if I recall right...)

So your options are limited (remember, most glass in SR is one way!). So you are trying to float a vehicle and all occupants - gonna be heavy!

As for 'under care and control', well if there is someone driving the car (heck even sitting in it!) They are in 'control' of it for the purpose of the spell -so they can resist it.
(Don't even try the argument of keys and not touching, etc - that gets you a rulebook upside the head)
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: fseperent on (19:05:50/02-12-19)
Levitate lists LOS as range.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (20:26:32/02-12-19)
Keep in mind too, you need LOS to the target of the spell... (and levitate had a range of touch, if I recall right...)

So your options are limited (remember, most glass in SR is one way!). So you are trying to float a vehicle and all occupants - gonna be heavy!

As for 'under care and control', well if there is someone driving the car (heck even sitting in it!) They are in 'control' of it for the purpose of the spell -so they can resist it.
(Don't even try the argument of keys and not touching, etc - that gets you a rulebook upside the head)

While it is LOS your other point covers probably 90% of the combat uses of the spell as almost everything you want to lift for the purpose of a fight will be in someones possession to some extent. Its pretty much drones that might have a issue, and a lot of the combat drones are heavy and its not doing much to stop them shooting you anyway as they have a turret.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Kiirnodel on (21:25:42/02-12-19)
The way I see it is OR always applies unless the spell (or spell category) specifies a different kind of resistance test.  Even spells that don't specify any resistance test at all, like Armor.

So Levitating a troll (over 200 kg) that isn't resisting is easier than an unattended commlink? The troll would be unresisted, but has a threshold of 2, while a commlink would get Object Resistance of 15+ dice? That doesn't sound right. Levitate specifies that there is a resistance test only if the subject of the spell is trying to avoid being levitated.

Object Resistance is used (for Manipulation spells) in the defense tests. Spells that don't need to be defended against wouldn't require a test. Armor and Levitate don't normally allow defense tests. Levitate in particular specifies the circumstances when you get a defense test. "If you're trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body." That seems to be rather specific about when you get to defend against the Levitate spell.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (22:47:35/02-12-19)
The way I see it is OR always applies unless the spell (or spell category) specifies a different kind of resistance test.  Even spells that don't specify any resistance test at all, like Armor.

So Levitating a troll (over 200 kg) that isn't resisting is easier than an unattended commlink? The troll would be unresisted, but has a threshold of 2, while a commlink would get Object Resistance of 15+ dice? That doesn't sound right. Levitate specifies that there is a resistance test only if the subject of the spell is trying to avoid being levitated.

It sounds exactly right to me.  Yes, a credstick that weighs a couple grams is harder to levitate than a big honkin' rock or tree limb.  That's exactly how Object Resistance works.  That's how OR is meant to work.

Quote
Object Resistance is used (for Manipulation spells) in the defense tests. Spells that don't need to be defended against wouldn't require a test. Armor and Levitate don't normally allow defense tests. Levitate in particular specifies the circumstances when you get a defense test. "If you're trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body." That seems to be rather specific about when you get to defend against the Levitate spell.

From the Manipulation Spells universal rules:
Quote
Physical: These spells affect physical forms and are
usually defended against with a living targetís Body +
Strength or an inanimate objectís Object Resistance dice
pool.

Since Levitation calls out Body + Strength for a resisting, living target... it sounds to me like OR is not just appropriate for Levitate (a Physical Manipulation spell) but it's implicitly invoked.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Kiirnodel on (23:01:01/02-12-19)
But if Levitate intended for OR to apply, then why isn't it called out when an item held by someone is being lifted? If Object Resistance is already supposed to be applied, wouldn't it apply to a held object too?

Levitate specifies the specific circumstances when a target can attempt to defend against being levitated. This implies that Levitate is normally unresisted (no defense), therefore the Manipulation general rule for what objects defend with doesn't apply. When a held item is being levitated, it is the person holding the item that gets the resistance test, not the item itself.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (23:11:43/02-12-19)
Because the neither rules for Physical Manipulations nor the rules specific to Levitate give any indication there's TWO resistance tests.  If Body + Str applies, you use that.  If it doesn't, you use OR.

From an in-universe rationale, probably the reason the person gets to defend against the spell targeting an object he's holding is because it's "inside" his Aura.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Kiirnodel on (23:18:52/02-12-19)
So you think a willing subject also resists with Strength+Body?

I maintain that the spell is not defended against normally. You only roll a defense test under the circumstances specified.

Same with the Armor spell, you don't defend against some spells.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (23:24:07/02-12-19)
So you think a willing subject also resists with Strength+Body?

Kind of a non sequitur.. a willing subject isn't resisting.  But yes I'd say that technically a willing subject is voluntarily forfeiting the opportunity to resist.

Quote
I maintain that the spell is not defended against normally. You only roll a defense test under the circumstances specified.

Same with the Armor spell, you don't defend against some spells.

I'd say that it IS the same with the Armor spell.  Only willing subjects may (indeed, CAN) forfeit the opportunity to resist.  Inanimate objects cannot be "willing" and therefore get OR vs Armor.  If you cast Armor on a hostile NPC, yes absolutely he gets to resist it.  If he wants to.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Kiirnodel on (23:48:17/02-12-19)
What about an unconscious person? Do they resist these spells? Is an unconscious person resisting that Armor spell more than the willing conscious person?

In my experience, there is no "giving up" your test. There are numerous cases where opposed tests are used to determine the result of an effect. You can't voluntarily just "not resist" (Possession is my go-to on that one). As far as I know, there aren't any rules for choosing not to resist something. People subject to illusions can't voluntarily fail to see through them, you can't choose to fail your composure roll, and you can't choose to let an attack deal max damage by not resisting the damage.

Why would the Levitate spell specify that a person who doesn't want to be levitated can attempt to resist the spell? Because the spell is normally a simple test (no resistance) with a threshold based on the target's mass. That's what the first paragraph says.

For these "harmless" spells as we might call them, there isn't normally a defense against them. The general rules for Physical Manipulation spells specifies the default way to defend against these spells, it doesn't mean that you always defend.

Now, would I allow someone to try and avoid it if they really wanted to? Sure. Then maybe we might default to the generic defense against Physical Manipulations. But if a spell doesn't specify that it is normally defended against, why would we assume that all spells call for a defense?


EDIT: I thought of an example of choosing to try and fail a test. The Symbiosis metagenetic quality has rules for trying to resist succeeding on the Body+Willpower test that it calls for. If you are trying to fail, you get a -1 on the roll.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (00:05:17/02-13-19)
What about an unconscious person? Do they resist these spells? Is an unconscious person resisting that Armor spell more than the willing conscious person?

Hypothetically, I'd say yes.  I'd say the applicable STR of an unconscious person would temporarily be effectively Zero, and therefore the unconscious body is just rolling Body + 0 to resist being levitated. Or maybe I'd rule BOD + BOD in place of BOD + STR.  Haven't thought hard on that exact scenario.

Quote
In my experience, there is no "giving up" your test. There are numerous cases where opposed tests are used to determine the result of an effect. You can't voluntarily just "not resist" (Possession is my go-to on that one). As far as I know, there aren't any rules for choosing not to resist something. People subject to illusions can't voluntarily fail to see through them, you can't choose to fail your composure roll, and you can't choose to let an attack deal max damage by not resisting the damage.

Clearly we come from different perspectives.  As I said, in my view there's no such thing as a spell that doesn't offer a resistance test in some form or another.

Quote
Why would the Levitate spell specify that a person who doesn't want to be levitated can attempt to resist the spell? Because the spell is normally a simple test (no resistance) with a threshold based on the target's mass. That's what the first paragraph says.

For specific to trump general, it must contradict general.  Failing to say there's a resistance test isn't the same thing as saying there is no resistance test.  As quoted earlier, Physical Manipulations are (unless said otherwise) resisted by BOD + STR/OR.  Levitate does not say otherwise. It just fails to specify entirely in the case of inanimate objects, which means the general rules for Physical Manipulations are in force.

Quote
For these "harmless" spells as we might call them, there isn't normally a defense against them. The general rules for Physical Manipulation spells specifies the default way to defend against these spells, it doesn't mean that you always defend.

Because the rules for Physical Manipulations does say that "usually" BOD+STR/OR is used to defend, it's flexible as to whether spells like Levitate and Armor count as the spells that "usually" are resisted by BOD+STR/OR.  You like to imagine they aren't.  I prefer to rule that they are.  Neither one of us can be demonstrated as being incorrect.  Probably need to chalk it up as "different strokes for different tables".  Or whatever.

Quote
...But if a spell doesn't specify that it is normally defended against, why would we assume that all spells call for a defense?

Three reasons. 

1) Again: Failing to say there is a defense test is not the same thing as saying there is no defense test.

2) Because a spell that's generally beneficial (Heal, Armor, etc) is generally assumed to have a subject that wants that beneficial effect.  But there are absolutely times that "beneficial" spells can impose a harmful effect (Heal, Armor, etc). The way I see it, if someone weaponizes Heal or Armor the target absolutely gets the opportunity to resist. I do not subscribe to the argument that just because the spell's description failed to mention how to handle the corner case of someone not wanting to be subjected to the spell that there is no resistance possible.  So yeah, Levitating a teammate is beneficial and generally you wouldn't want to resist it any more than Armor.  However Levitating a hostile is NOT beneficial, nor is casting "Shadowrun Faerie Fire" on them via the Armor spell.

3) (the point I made upthread about Counterspelling)  To reiterate: there's got to be a damn good reason why certain spells cannot be Counterspelled at the moment of casting.  And I'm not convinced there is one. Ever.  Counterspelling Area Indirect spells has the meta explanation of being collateral damage from the whole "Dodge or No Dodge" clusterfrag. But there's no meta nor in-universe explanation for why the magic involved in Levitate or Armor cannot be Counterspelled.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (02:29:40/02-13-19)
1) for your one, maybe maybe not.  Usually is not the same as always unless specified otherwise. And in this case I'd say yeah failing to mention one is grounds to say there isn't one.  One, other defenses are specifically mentioned in the text of that spell, and those dice pools will almost universally be worse than the OR test outside trolls holding objects, so it would likely have an additional line or OR whichever is higher.  Two, other spells in the manipulation sphere do mention the OR test in their text. If they intended the rules to be read has an always unless otherwise specified as opposed to usually they are but we will let you know, none of those spells would mention a OR test as it just always happened unless otherwise specified  Not that there are many examples in the main book.  Only Animate, fling, ignite and levitate directly target inanimate objects. Spells like ice sheet or magic fingers indirectly effect inanimate objects.  Out of the ones that directly effect objects, animate and ignite specify OR is used to resist the spell, fling and levitate don't.(how craptastic would fling be with a OR test)

2.  Hey I agree there should be a way, hopefully in 6e they come up with one.  I'd probably house rule one in myself, its just never came up.

3. Same as 2.  They screwed up when writing counter spelling when they only allowed it to add dice to defense test instead of being able to create a pool when there wasn't a test. That doesn't mean we should just add on random defense tests though. Though in the case of damage manipulation AoE spells honestly you should be able to defend against AoE attacks, its not like you actually dodge bullets, the defense test is just about making yourself a harder target and the same logic could apply to AoE attacks.  But if for whatever reason certain spells can't be defended against, sure counter spelling dice should be able to be applied anyways. Hopefully they will fix that in a supplement or 6e.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Kiirnodel on (06:49:46/02-13-19)
We actually have some precedence for spells that are not resisted and how they are handled. Take a look at the Magic Resistance (Core, p.76) and Arcane Arrester (Run Faster, p. 111) qualities. Magic Resistance specifies that spells that require voluntary targets automatically fail on them, while Arcane Arrester creates a pseudo-resistance against spells not normally resisted and still reduces the effective hits.

To me, this speaks to the fact that spells which don't call for a defense (or resistance) is not because the target is voluntarily giving up their test. There was no test to begin with. Casting Levitate on a target doesn't call for a defense (It doesn't say "net hits must exceed..."), the spell specifies that it has a threshold equal to the mass divided by 200 kg (rounded up). Success tests have thresholds, opposed tests do not.


Your comment about Counterspelling struck a chord for me. I remembered being dumbstruck when a GM at a Missions game ruled that counterspelling couldn't be applied to a resistance test against a spell. At the time, I thought "surely that can't be right," but I looked it up, and he was right.

Still, I wanted to be sure, so I took another look at Counterspelling earlier, and I think you might be overestimating how much it should apply to. Spell Defense pretty explicitly only applies to spells that are directly targeting someone. It even specifies hostile spells too.

There is actually a pretty sizable list of spells that Spell Defense doesn't affect: passive detection spells, environmental manipulations, any illusion spell that doesn't target the one resisting the effect (like Invisibility or Mask). Even a lot of Active Detection spells wouldn't be affected by Spell Defense (by a strict reading) if it weren't explicitly called out in the characteristics for Active Detection spells. The specific rule that Counterspelling does apply trumps the general rule that it normally wouldn't.

Remember, Spell Defense only applies to you and people you've chosen to protect. You have to declare that you are protecting a particular target, which is an action (a Free Action, but those are still pretty limited in SR rules). You can't just use Counterspelling to disrupt any and all spells being cast.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (08:37:10/02-13-19)
Quote
Success tests have thresholds, opposed tests do not.

That's actually a very good point. It's the same argument that proves why you don't get to dodge a Fireball.  Still, Fireball still gives an analogue to "resisting" the spell in the form of a soak roll which in turn gives an 'obvious' place to apply Counterspelling dice... but to entertain this train of thought:

So, are you also saying that if you attack someone by casting Heal or Armor on them (in order to inflict the unappealing downsides of those spells), there's no defense allowed?  How would the test work to attempt to Counterspell a weaponized Heal/Armor on a protected target? (and potentially, Levitate!)

Of course the fatal problem with saying "It's got a threshold, so there's no resistance!" is that it very explicitly DOES give a conditional resistance test.  So the door's open, the only question is do things over than living targets also get a resistance test through that opening.  I'll admit that you convinced me that it seems clear that passive objects probably shouldn't, based on the opposed test being originally implicitly ruled out.  I LIKE the idea of OR applying to make a credstick harder to lift than a boulder, but yeah it looks like maybe that's not the intent.

But is it fair to say a drone should be treated the same way as an equal mass of metal and plastic? Characters clearly aren't treated the same way as an equal mass of bone and meat, after all.  Drones aren't living, but they're still NPCs with (at least) motive agency. Do living targets get to resist because they have auras, or because they're able to physically move? (it shouldn't be because they have an Aura, because if so the resistance wouldn't be based on BOD + STR...)

Bringing it back around to the OP... living targets get to resist with BOD + STR but actively resisting nonliving objects (like drones!) get no resistance test in your view?  Going back to the general/blanket rules for Physical Manipulations, it seems that it 'should' be clear OR applies for a Drone that's trying to resist being Levitated.  Or should a drone get BOD + 0 (or BOD + STR if it has a Drone Arm) since it has those stats? (kinda)

Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Mirikon on (10:17:46/02-13-19)
All spells have a test involved. However, not all spells have 'resistance' tests. Some have thresholds to meet. Some of those have special rules modifying their effectiveness based on conditions, like health spells taking Essence loss into account.

Quote
SPELL DEFENSE
Spell defense is used against hostile spells cast at you or at targets that are within your line of sight (using the same rules as for targeting spells) that you decide to protect with spell defense. Declaring this protection is either a Free Action or, if you donít have one left, an Interrupt Action that reduces your Initiative Score by 5. Each Combat Turn, you have a pool of dice for spell defense equal to your Counterspelling skill. When a spell is cast, you may choose to use some or all of your Counterspelling dice to defend against an incoming spell. Against each spell attack, you have to choose how many dice from this pool to allocate for defense, and you can select how many people (including yourself if you desire) are covered by these defensive dice. You can protect a number of people at one time equal to your Magic Rating. These dice are then added to the defense tests of everyone youíre covering. The pool refreshes at the beginning of each Combat Turn.

Counterspelling to use as spell defense applies to hostile spells, specifically spell attacks. These spells all have some form of resistance roll in them. Typically, these are combat spells, illusions that affect a the target (such as Agony) rather than ones that shield the target (such as Physical Mask), and manipulation spells that are 'attacking' in nature (such as Petrify or Alter Memories).

Levitate is not one of those spells. It only has a resistance roll if the item you are trying to lift is attended (like trying to yank someone's gun out of their holster). Otherwise, it is a threshold test to see if you can lift that much weight. Spell defense would not apply unless they were attempting to affect something that had a resistance roll (a person or their gear). Using the spell on drones or unattended vehicles would not apply.


Getting back on topic:
I will also say that Powerbolt is better than Lightning Bolt for most drones, since direct spells are resisted by Body alone, and few drones have a body of more than 4, while combat drones almost always have armor, and may have riggers or autosofts to help with the defense tests.

Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (10:33:18/02-13-19)
...Levitate is not one of those spells. It only has a resistance roll if the item you are trying to lift is attended (like trying to yank someone's gun out of their holster). Otherwise, it is a threshold test to see if you can lift that much weight. Spell defense would not apply unless they were attempting to affect something that had a resistance roll (a person or their gear). Using the spell on drones or unattended vehicles would not apply.

What's the rationale for why living subjects get a test to resist Levitate but Drones would not.  It's just quirk of semantics/word choice in the rule, or is there an underlying logic to Levitate's exception in allowing a resistance test on a spell that uses a (normally) unopposed success test?

Take the example of an anthropomorphic drone holding a gun, and a human holding a gun.  If enough levels of Lifelike Features were present, you potentially wouldn't even be able to tell which was which!  But if you randomly select the gun in the human's hand, the human gets to roll BOD + STR to hold on to it.  Why shouldn't the drone, if you had tried to levitate that gun instead?
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Reaver on (10:49:48/02-13-19)
My question with the drone would be "Is it being rigged or is it in auto mode?".

If it is rigged, then it is attended, although I am unsure what the pilot's body and strength have to do with the drone resisting the spell...

If it is under the power of its own dog brain,  then it is unattended, but still under the control and attention of an AI (a simple, dog brain AI, but still an AI).

Do AIs not count as attended???


See the can o worms this has opened?
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (10:59:54/02-13-19)
My question with the drone would be "Is it being rigged or is it in auto mode?".

If it is rigged, then it is attended, although I am unsure what the pilot's body and strength have to do with the drone resisting the spell...

If it is under the power of its own dog brain,  then it is unattended, but still under the control and attention of an AI (a simple, dog brain AI, but still an AI).

Do AIs not count as attended???


See the can o worms this has opened?

The way I see it, it's not a question of being "attended".  IMO clearly a drone holding an object ought to have the same test to resist it being Levitate'd away as would a living creature have opportunity to hold on.

But it goes beyond that... why do living targets get a BOD + STR test to resist being bodily Levitated?  Not in a "because the rule says so" sense, but what is occuring in-game when the living creature tries to avoid being levitated?

Is it grabbing something and holding on?  I don't think so, because it never says you need free hands to resist the Levitate or are penalized if there's no available hand-holds.
Is it because your aura interferes with the magic?  I don't think so, because BOD + STR is an unlikely choice of game mechanic to represent this.
Is it because.. well, you're vaguely "moving out the the way" of the gathering mana that'd lift you up if you otherwise don't?  It's weak because REA isn't invoked, but still: I guess yes, but mainly because I can't think of any other plausible explanation.

And if it is that third thing (or even the first thing), then absolutely I see no reason why Drones aren't eligible for the same opportunity for a resistance test given to "living" targets.  Essentially, reading "living" to mean motive, rather than aura-possessing, subjects.  I mean, a potted plant doesn't get to resist Levitate afterall, does it?
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: fseperent on (11:38:04/02-13-19)
I would rule that any aircraft, hovercraft, or similar would be allowed an opposed test:

# of hits vs Accel

Here's my logic, those vehicles and drones apply pressure to the air around them to move.
Other vehicles or drones that need to be on the ground to move have no way real way to act against the force holding them up.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Michael Chandra on (16:28:10/02-13-19)
I would rule that any aircraft, hovercraft, or similar would be allowed an opposed test:

# of hits vs Accel

Here's my logic, those vehicles and drones apply pressure to the air around them to move.
Other vehicles or drones that need to be on the ground to move have no way real way to act against the force holding them up.
If there's no resistance test, then how can Counterspelling dice help? Or are you indeed stating that you can only Dispel a Levitate on a drone, not Counterspell it?
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Mirikon on (18:14:45/02-13-19)
What's the rationale for why living subjects get a test to resist Levitate but Drones would not.  It's just quirk of semantics/word choice in the rule, or is there an underlying logic to Levitate's exception in allowing a resistance test on a spell that uses a (normally) unopposed success test?

Take the example of an anthropomorphic drone holding a gun, and a human holding a gun.  If enough levels of Lifelike Features were present, you potentially wouldn't even be able to tell which was which!  But if you randomly select the gun in the human's hand, the human gets to roll BOD + STR to hold on to it.  Why shouldn't the drone, if you had tried to levitate that gun instead?

The rationale is because it says that black and white in the rules?

Quote
LEVITATE
(PHYSICAL)
Type: P Range: LOS Duration: S Drain: F Ė 2
Levitate allows you to telekinetically lift a person or object and move it around. You have to beat a threshold equal to the subjectís mass divided by 200 kilograms, rounded up. The subject of the spell can be moved anywhere in your line of sight at a movement rate equal to the spellís Force in meters per Combat Turn.

If youíre trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body. You can use this spell to levitate yourself, if you need a view from a higher perspective or desire some parachute-free sky diving.

So, actually, lifting the guy's gun out of his holster would be just the threshold test. By the text of the spell, if it isn't a living creature holding on to the thing, there's no resist roll, so no spell defense. You could make an argument for a drone with an anthropomorphic arm holding something, or a drone with jaws biting something getting a test to hold on to the item, I guess, and a reasonable DM would probably agree with you. However, that is an extremely niche ruling, that only applies to a small subset of drones under an even smaller subset of conditions.

Note that you can't use this to disarm a drone's mounted weapons, since those are usually locked in, not just resting in a holster or the like.

If you're asking for an in-game reason, then just chalk it up to the complexities of how mana interacts with living creatures, or something like that. At some point, you have to just shrug, and say, "Because that's the way it works." Especially when dealing with magic, since Magic doesn't always play by rules we mortals entirely understand.

My question with the drone would be "Is it being rigged or is it in auto mode?".
It doesn't matter. Anything installed on a drone can't be lifted off. Anything an anthro drone is holding would be in the same grey area regardless of it being rigged or dog brain. Lifting a drone with the spell is no different from lifting a car (and the people in it), except that you would need to factor in the weight of the people in the car as well as the weight of the car itself to the hits needed. Spell defense would not come into play, but dispelling could.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (19:00:28/02-13-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Mirikon on (20:07:15/02-13-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/400x/68651623.jpg)
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (22:37:46/02-13-19)
Artistic interpretation of a mage trying to levitate a Roadmaster:
(https://i.imgflip.com/1jizbe.jpg)
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (23:15:23/02-13-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.

Yeah I said as much earlier, itís pretty much a drone issue. Even a jackrabbit would be well over a ton so 6 hits even without the people in it.  So a pretty min maxed starting mage or a lucky roll. Regular cars get up to and a bit past 2 tons so 9-10 hits and they arenít armored. Which means outside a lucky edge roll doubtful already. Non commercial trucks can hit 3+ tons. Roadmasters are on another level.

I remember some shadowtalk in a 3e? Supplement where a troll was bitching that his crew hit a convenience store and the kid there levitated their van with them in it until lone star showed up. He threatened to get the kid, and all I was thinking was if he could pull that off donít show up without an army. I suspect it was just a issue where the writer didnít do the math and thought it sounded cool to make whatever point was being made.(I think it was a anyone can be a mage style warning)
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: fseperent on (03:44:34/02-14-19)
I would rule that any aircraft, hovercraft, or similar would be allowed an opposed test:

# of hits vs Accel

Here's my logic, those vehicles and drones apply pressure to the air around them to move.
Other vehicles or drones that need to be on the ground to move have no way real way to act against the force holding them up.
If there's no resistance test, then how can Counterspelling dice help? Or are you indeed stating that you can only Dispel a Levitate on a drone, not Counterspell it?

I should of worded it better.
That test would be when the drone tries to break free and can generate air pressure to move.
Nothing about this statement even states Counterspelling or Dispelling.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Michael Chandra on (18:05:27/02-14-19)
I would rule that any aircraft, hovercraft, or similar would be allowed an opposed test:

# of hits vs Accel

Here's my logic, those vehicles and drones apply pressure to the air around them to move.
Other vehicles or drones that need to be on the ground to move have no way real way to act against the force holding them up.
If there's no resistance test, then how can Counterspelling dice help? Or are you indeed stating that you can only Dispel a Levitate on a drone, not Counterspell it?

I should of worded it better.
That test would be when the drone tries to break free and can generate air pressure to move.
Nothing about this statement even states Counterspelling or Dispelling.
Okay, well if at any point you're actually going to answer the questions you received regarding Counterspelling, I'm sure someone will let me know.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Mirikon on (21:34:34/02-14-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.

Yeah I said as much earlier, itís pretty much a drone issue. Even a jackrabbit would be well over a ton so 6 hits even without the people in it.  So a pretty min maxed starting mage or a lucky roll. Regular cars get up to and a bit past 2 tons so 9-10 hits and they arenít armored. Which means outside a lucky edge roll doubtful already. Non commercial trucks can hit 3+ tons. Roadmasters are on another level.

I remember some shadowtalk in a 3e? Supplement where a troll was bitching that his crew hit a convenience store and the kid there levitated their van with them in it until lone star showed up. He threatened to get the kid, and all I was thinking was if he could pull that off donít show up without an army. I suspect it was just a issue where the writer didnít do the math and thought it sounded cool to make whatever point was being made.(I think it was a anyone can be a mage style warning)
3e still had exploding 6s on all rolls, didn't it? So there is a nonzero chance of a kid pulling it off. Of course, there's also a nonzero chance that it was a bored dragon taking a kid's shape that decided to troll (no pun intended) the mortals.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (23:32:56/02-14-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.

Yeah I said as much earlier, itís pretty much a drone issue. Even a jackrabbit would be well over a ton so 6 hits even without the people in it.  So a pretty min maxed starting mage or a lucky roll. Regular cars get up to and a bit past 2 tons so 9-10 hits and they arenít armored. Which means outside a lucky edge roll doubtful already. Non commercial trucks can hit 3+ tons. Roadmasters are on another level.

I remember some shadowtalk in a 3e? Supplement where a troll was bitching that his crew hit a convenience store and the kid there levitated their van with them in it until lone star showed up. He threatened to get the kid, and all I was thinking was if he could pull that off donít show up without an army. I suspect it was just a issue where the writer didnít do the math and thought it sounded cool to make whatever point was being made.(I think it was a anyone can be a mage style warning)
3e still had exploding 6s on all rolls, didn't it? So there is a nonzero chance of a kid pulling it off. Of course, there's also a nonzero chance that it was a bored dragon taking a kid's shape that decided to troll (no pun intended) the mortals.

Yeah it was possible just like itís possible in 5e. Just comes a point where the odds are so low I donít think it makes a good story/example. The TN would have been in the mid 30s. To roll 5 6s then like a 4+in a row is pretty hard. Not win the lottery hard but 1 in 14k rare. The dice pool youíd have to have even consider trying to pull that off isnít feasible for a character. In 5e I havenít done the math but I suspect itís more likely but still require an absurd dice pool to be feasible.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: fseperent on (02:06:08/02-15-19)
I would rule that any aircraft, hovercraft, or similar would be allowed an opposed test:

# of hits vs Accel

Here's my logic, those vehicles and drones apply pressure to the air around them to move.
Other vehicles or drones that need to be on the ground to move have no way real way to act against the force holding them up.
If there's no resistance test, then how can Counterspelling dice help? Or are you indeed stating that you can only Dispel a Levitate on a drone, not Counterspell it?

I should of worded it better.
That test would be when the drone tries to break free and can generate air pressure to move.
Nothing about this statement even states Counterspelling or Dispelling.
Okay, well if at any point you're actually going to answer the questions you received regarding Counterspelling, I'm sure someone will let me know.

To be fair, if you said spell defence, I would of got what you asked earlier.
Yes, it would apply.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Reaver on (04:59:03/02-15-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.
...
I remember some shadowtalk in a 3e? Supplement where a troll was bitching that his crew hit a convenience store and the kid there levitated their van with them in it until lone star showed up. He threatened to get the kid, and all I was thinking was if he could pull that off donít show up without an army. I suspect it was just a issue where the writer didnít do the math and thought it sounded cool to make whatever point was being made.(I think it was a anyone can be a mage style warning)

Been spending some time in 3e recently and looked it up... if "some kid" floated a TROLL, it would be impressive... But a van loaded with what I assume would be a couple other Orks/trolls....

Run. Run fast. Run far. Don't look back!

A typical Troll, weighting 200kg, (about 440lbs) is a TN of 6... 2 trolls.. makes that an 8... an Ork 10... A typical cargo van, 29.

Now, since Levitate is one of the few spells in 3e that force didn't matter... (this is the scary part!), the drain is the target number +2... or in this case a 31m.

So once this "kid" lifted the van, hell even attempted to lift the van; he had to make a drain resistance test of 31 Vs a moderate wound.. and IF his magic rating wasn't a 31, that was physical damage...


But IF i remember the story right, the "punk kid" was standing there with a smirk on his face.... Not bleeding from his ears and eyes.. not dazed and wobbly..... standing there smirking...

That's Harlequin level casting. 
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Mirikon on (21:34:32/02-17-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.
...
I remember some shadowtalk in a 3e? Supplement where a troll was bitching that his crew hit a convenience store and the kid there levitated their van with them in it until lone star showed up. He threatened to get the kid, and all I was thinking was if he could pull that off donít show up without an army. I suspect it was just a issue where the writer didnít do the math and thought it sounded cool to make whatever point was being made.(I think it was a anyone can be a mage style warning)

Been spending some time in 3e recently and looked it up... if "some kid" floated a TROLL, it would be impressive... But a van loaded with what I assume would be a couple other Orks/trolls....

Run. Run fast. Run far. Don't look back!

A typical Troll, weighting 200kg, (about 440lbs) is a TN of 6... 2 trolls.. makes that an 8... an Ork 10... A typical cargo van, 29.

Now, since Levitate is one of the few spells in 3e that force didn't matter... (this is the scary part!), the drain is the target number +2... or in this case a 31m.

So once this "kid" lifted the van, hell even attempted to lift the van; he had to make a drain resistance test of 31 Vs a moderate wound.. and IF his magic rating wasn't a 31, that was physical damage...


But IF i remember the story right, the "punk kid" was standing there with a smirk on his face.... Not bleeding from his ears and eyes.. not dazed and wobbly..... standing there smirking...

That's Harlequin level casting.
Actually, this sounds like EXACTLY the kind of thing Harlequin would do for kicks. Toss a Mask spell on as well, and that's definitely something he'd go for.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (23:09:03/02-17-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.
...
I remember some shadowtalk in a 3e? Supplement where a troll was bitching that his crew hit a convenience store and the kid there levitated their van with them in it until lone star showed up. He threatened to get the kid, and all I was thinking was if he could pull that off donít show up without an army. I suspect it was just a issue where the writer didnít do the math and thought it sounded cool to make whatever point was being made.(I think it was a anyone can be a mage style warning)

Been spending some time in 3e recently and looked it up... if "some kid" floated a TROLL, it would be impressive... But a van loaded with what I assume would be a couple other Orks/trolls....

Run. Run fast. Run far. Don't look back!

A typical Troll, weighting 200kg, (about 440lbs) is a TN of 6... 2 trolls.. makes that an 8... an Ork 10... A typical cargo van, 29.

Now, since Levitate is one of the few spells in 3e that force didn't matter... (this is the scary part!), the drain is the target number +2... or in this case a 31m.

So once this "kid" lifted the van, hell even attempted to lift the van; he had to make a drain resistance test of 31 Vs a moderate wound.. and IF his magic rating wasn't a 31, that was physical damage...


But IF i remember the story right, the "punk kid" was standing there with a smirk on his face.... Not bleeding from his ears and eyes.. not dazed and wobbly..... standing there smirking...

That's Harlequin level casting.
Actually, this sounds like EXACTLY the kind of thing Harlequin would do for kicks. Toss a Mask spell on as well, and that's definitely something he'd go for.

In the story the kid actually responded to the post, basically saying come around my pops place again and it wont be lonestar you have to worry about. Still could be Harlequin either continuing the charade or telling the kid to bluff like it was him. But, its one of those things it was never hinted at, so I think its just one of those times a writer knocks out a cool sounding story without doing the game math to see if it is feasible. I like the harlequin angle for a retcon so to speak.
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Reaver on (02:09:17/02-18-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.
...
I remember some shadowtalk in a 3e? Supplement where a troll was bitching that his crew hit a convenience store and the kid there levitated their van with them in it until lone star showed up. He threatened to get the kid, and all I was thinking was if he could pull that off donít show up without an army. I suspect it was just a issue where the writer didnít do the math and thought it sounded cool to make whatever point was being made.(I think it was a anyone can be a mage style warning)

Been spending some time in 3e recently and looked it up... if "some kid" floated a TROLL, it would be impressive... But a van loaded with what I assume would be a couple other Orks/trolls....

Run. Run fast. Run far. Don't look back!

A typical Troll, weighting 200kg, (about 440lbs) is a TN of 6... 2 trolls.. makes that an 8... an Ork 10... A typical cargo van, 29.

Now, since Levitate is one of the few spells in 3e that force didn't matter... (this is the scary part!), the drain is the target number +2... or in this case a 31m.

So once this "kid" lifted the van, hell even attempted to lift the van; he had to make a drain resistance test of 31 Vs a moderate wound.. and IF his magic rating wasn't a 31, that was physical damage...


But IF i remember the story right, the "punk kid" was standing there with a smirk on his face.... Not bleeding from his ears and eyes.. not dazed and wobbly..... standing there smirking...

That's Harlequin level casting.
Actually, this sounds like EXACTLY the kind of thing Harlequin would do for kicks. Toss a Mask spell on as well, and that's definitely something he'd go for.

In the story the kid actually responded to the post, basically saying come around my pops place again and it wont be lonestar you have to worry about. Still could be Harlequin either continuing the charade or telling the kid to bluff like it was him. But, its one of those things it was never hinted at, so I think its just one of those times a writer knocks out a cool sounding story without doing the game math to see if it is feasible. I like the harlequin angle for a retcon so to speak.

I don't remember the response at all... but the fact there was a response speak volumes.. as the old "Haven" (Can't actually remember its name currently :( ) was a deep site and required "hacking in" to gain entry... meaning the Kid just might have been 'in the biz'....

Do you remember the handle/name?
Title: Re: Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (12:12:01/02-18-19)
I have to have a laugh at this thread, because as far as I'm concerned anyone who gets enough hits to Levitate my Roadmaster deserves to have it succeed.
...
I remember some shadowtalk in a 3e? Supplement where a troll was bitching that his crew hit a convenience store and the kid there levitated their van with them in it until lone star showed up. He threatened to get the kid, and all I was thinking was if he could pull that off donít show up without an army. I suspect it was just a issue where the writer didnít do the math and thought it sounded cool to make whatever point was being made.(I think it was a anyone can be a mage style warning)

Been spending some time in 3e recently and looked it up... if "some kid" floated a TROLL, it would be impressive... But a van loaded with what I assume would be a couple other Orks/trolls....

Run. Run fast. Run far. Don't look back!

A typical Troll, weighting 200kg, (about 440lbs) is a TN of 6... 2 trolls.. makes that an 8... an Ork 10... A typical cargo van, 29.

Now, since Levitate is one of the few spells in 3e that force didn't matter... (this is the scary part!), the drain is the target number +2... or in this case a 31m.

So once this "kid" lifted the van, hell even attempted to lift the van; he had to make a drain resistance test of 31 Vs a moderate wound.. and IF his magic rating wasn't a 31, that was physical damage...


But IF i remember the story right, the "punk kid" was standing there with a smirk on his face.... Not bleeding from his ears and eyes.. not dazed and wobbly..... standing there smirking...

That's Harlequin level casting.
Actually, this sounds like EXACTLY the kind of thing Harlequin would do for kicks. Toss a Mask spell on as well, and that's definitely something he'd go for.

In the story the kid actually responded to the post, basically saying come around my pops place again and it wont be lonestar you have to worry about. Still could be Harlequin either continuing the charade or telling the kid to bluff like it was him. But, its one of those things it was never hinted at, so I think its just one of those times a writer knocks out a cool sounding story without doing the game math to see if it is feasible. I like the harlequin angle for a retcon so to speak.

I don't remember the response at all... but the fact there was a response speak volumes.. as the old "Haven" (Can't actually remember its name currently :( ) was a deep site and required "hacking in" to gain entry... meaning the Kid just might have been 'in the biz'....

Do you remember the handle/name?

I wish my memory was that good.  No the story stood out to me at the time, I like playing mages in every game out there even in games where they suck.  So the feat was lets say beyond what any of the mage I ever played could hope for. I wish I could even remember which supplement it was, not that I could find it in the mess of my garage.  Still haven't sorted things since my last move which was over 5 years ago.