Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Marcus on (00:34:47/06-02-18)

Title: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (00:34:47/06-02-18)
So this maybe a little weird, but I really feel like SR just lacks utterly in the wand department, I know you can make foci look anything, and so yes you can make the look like wands. But no body does this, they make rings, amulets, staves, tattoos, cuff-links, gauntlets. anything but wands. I really really feel like there is a need to make some wand specific foci, like the ones from 4th made form specific magic woods, maybe a simple as just adding a level or two a specific school of spells (Combat, healing). But really wands guys. It's just something I feel like the whole magic subculture would gain from. No more mages pulling guns, Mages pull wands, and they do so for a reason.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (00:40:38/06-02-18)
Depends on what you want out of the wand. D20 rules?  Harry Potter rules?

Within existing SR rules you could say your Alchemical Preparation is a wand.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (00:43:00/06-02-18)
Depends on what you want out of the wand. D20 rules?  Harry Potter rules?

Within existing SR rules you could say your Alchemical Preparation is a wand.


I don't wand D&D type wands with charges or something. I want a reason for mages to pack them over guns, like harry potter or something, I'm looking for Foci type bonus but on that would unique to wands.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Reaver on (00:47:40/06-02-18)
I think its the whole "I'm waving a twig! Fear me!!" angle....

That, and the fact I think people are thinking about getting disarmed of their foci. If you have a twig, err, sorry wand, then someone can take it from you (by guile or force), you can drop it, and it stands out for what it is.. cause you know, no one carries twigs for combat (unless they go for the eyes!The eyes Boo! The EYES!!). With tattoos, cuff-links, even gloves its a little harder to lose them. Or so they think...
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (00:53:04/06-02-18)
I can't denie that there is a style angle to my desire for wands, and I agree Reaver that what your saying make sense. But players are simply creatures, offer them a plus one to something they can't get anywhere else, and they will get on board in a hurry, or heck just make it cheaper to a focus a wand and your well on track.

It might also be a good way to address the lingering issue of weapon focus mono-whips, which remain an utter abomination that need to dealt with.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Jack_Spade on (02:47:34/06-02-18)
If you want a quick and dirty houserule: Making a Combat Spell focus in form of a twig... eh, wand, allows you to aim your indirect combat spells like a gun or rifle and/or gives you a +1 bonus die to perform them.

That should be enough of an incentive to get certain people to polish their wands and whip them out to every occasion... ;)
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Kiirnodel on (04:37:35/06-02-18)
Wands would also make a good option for the form of a spell fetish.

But really, the restriction or bonus for using a Wand for spellcasting is completely self-imposed in the Shadowrun setting. For some traditions it might make sense for one of the forms of magical paraphernalia to be a wand, and others it might be completely ridiculous and counterproductive.

In setting there is no specific bonus for using a wand to aid spellcasting. That just isn't how magic works in the 6th world.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (09:17:34/06-02-18)
If you want a quick and dirty houserule: Making a Combat Spell focus in form of a twig... eh, wand, allows you to aim your indirect combat spells like a gun or rifle and/or gives you a +1 bonus die to perform them.

That should be enough of an incentive to get certain people to polish their wands and whip them out to every occasion... ;)

Very Acceptable.
Wands would also make a good option for the form of a spell fetish.

But really, the restriction or bonus for using a Wand for spellcasting is completely self-imposed in the Shadowrun setting. For some traditions it might make sense for one of the forms of magical paraphernalia to be a wand, and others it might be completely ridiculous and counterproductive.

In setting there is no specific bonus for using a wand to aid spellcasting. That just isn't how magic works in the 6th world.


Yes Kiir I do understand the rules. But there is nothing wrong with advocating for changes and/or additions to the system. We have books and books of guns, no reason we couldn't have books and books of Foci or other gear pieces.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (10:50:53/06-02-18)
I have to agree with Kiirnodel on the point about different traditions.

The rules for magical gear are intentionally vague... going down into the weeds would result in gear specific to various traditions.  The existing Foci rules allow for (Harry Potter style) wands for Hermetics.  The same rules cover Prayer Beads for Christian Theurgists, Prayer Sticks for Hopi and Zuni branches of Shamanism, and etc.

And in trying to come up with some gear to serve as analogous examples to Wands for Hermetics, I realized I kept hitting on "sacred" items in real-world religions that are the inspiration for SR traditions.  It's a fragging minefield to start assigning game stats to various holy objects.  It's lose-lose for CGL to do it, and imo more than kinda insensitive to personally do it for home game purposes.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: farothel on (13:22:09/06-02-18)
One of the things that let me go for rings, amulets, tattoos,... instead of wands is that you only have 2 hands.  If your focus is a ring, you still have your two hands free for other things, while if you have a wand, you need one hand to use it.  In most fights it's not an issue, but in some of the fights my characters have been in, having 2 hands free for things other than your foci was quite useful.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Beta on (14:24:18/06-02-18)
I've always viewed fetishes as something of at least modest size, that typically needs to be held during casting.  Which for some traditions would indeed make wands a perfect fit.  But what you need now is a quality that requires a fetish (negative), or gives an extra bonus for using a fetish in some situations (positive).

Or a house rule putting more range penalties on spells, but letting appropriate wands give longer range increments.

And to note that in my home game I now have a mage from a possession tradition.  Sooner or later 'Mr. Stick' is going going to get burned up and something made of natural materials that are a bit more durable will no doubt be sought, and a wand would again be perfect.  I mean, a wand possessed by a fire spirit is pretty darn close to a wand of fire blasting ...
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (14:31:22/06-02-18)
If wands were the best tool for the job then that's what worlds casters would use. I don't think any one assigns religious value to harry potter style wands, and I'm not purposing stating out the ark of the covenant or Zulfiqur here. Stating out the worlds great holy objects is obviously a lose lose proposition but that has nothing to do with wanting to see, wand foci become the preferred tool for spellslinging. 

I still see far to many weapon focus mono-whips and everything we can do end that travesty is worth while.

Also this isn't a new idea, the end of 4th we had wands that did better stuff b/c they were made from trees that would eat you. So this isn't anything we haven't seen before. Further its not like I purposed stopping people from getting rings amulet etc as they have in the past. I do want to end magic mono-whips but that's a different issue.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (15:28:34/06-02-18)
Heck we could make it as another magic based Martial Art, call it Wand Slinging.
Make some more magic martial art maneuvers with the same sorts of bonuses and there ya go.
We have gun arts why not wand arts? 
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Reaver on (16:36:15/06-02-18)
.... I don't think any one assigns religious value to harry potter style wands, ....


Dude, all I am going to say is... "Starting running now!"



Once the "Potterites" hear of this, they will hunt you down....



How far is their reach? just google "Muggle" to see.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (17:51:00/06-02-18)
.... I don't think any one assigns religious value to harry potter style wands, ....

Dude, all I am going to say is... "Starting running now!"

Once the "Potterites" hear of this, they will hunt you down....

How far is their reach? just google "Muggle" to see.

It's not like you to get your undies in bunch over some broom riding hippies Reaver.
I'm more worried about Lormyr and his panzer assault canon. I actually might run afoul of him one these days. lol
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Sphinx on (18:35:02/06-02-18)
Offer an optional 10% karma discount on enchanting and binding when the focus takes a form that's thematically appropriate for the tradition. Hermetics, for example, could be: wand (spell focus), staff (spirit focus), amulet (power focus), ring (metamagic focus).
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (19:27:31/06-02-18)
That is also a very good idea, Sphinx. I'm gonna write my wand Martial Art just cause i like the idea, and it's just to nerdy an idea not to do it. But I will use your idea as well.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (23:37:48/06-02-18)
Yes I know it will only ever be a house rule thing, right next to the Monster the GM made up Himself. But for your reading enjoyment I give you----- (Drum sounds)


Olwa Tr or Wand Mastery-
The newest thing in the magic subculture is wand dueling embodied by a martial art style Wand Mastery or Olwa Tr for the elves among us. While it's critiques (Which are Many) often refer to it’s practitioners as twig jocks. The Style's technique have been shown to increase elemental combat spell effectiveness by a meaningful amount when employing a so called "Combat Wand". It has also served as a critical component of the new hit Trid Show Wizard’s Duel (Now on Season 3). In which practitioners attempt to disarm their opponent wands. Of course to use this school practitioners must have a "Combat Wand" an Active Combat Spell Focus that is a wand.

Techniques:
Wand Precision- By changing the origin point for elemental spells from eye or other body party to the wand tip, casters quickly achieve greater precision. When casting an indirect ranged combat spell using their wand combat focus, the spellcaster adds +1 die to the Spellcasting+Magic [Force] vs Intuition+Reaction opposed roll.

Mana Mastery- As an Olwa Tr Initiate or Istar increases their mastery of wand use, they soon learn to more effective channel mana through their wand focus. When casting an indirect ranged combat spell using their wand combat focus the caster +1 DV to the Spell, it does not increase armor penetration or effect the force of the spell but add one hit the drain difficulty. 

Bending of the Wand- Olwa Tr teaches that the best way to defeat your enemy is to not get hit by their attacks.  (See run and gun 135, Bending of the Reed, +1 die when using the dodge interrupt action)

Wandjutsu- As any Combatant knows if your weapon isn’t in your hand it does you little good.  Through constant, repeated drilling Istar Master quick drawing their wand with lightning speed. (It also helps that Olwa Tr teaches it’s practitioners to carry their wands up their sleeves). A Caster’s may draw wand combat focus that is sheathed up their sleeve as a free action when casting combat indirect spell.

Diswanding- The True Master of Olwa Tr known as a Cururnir can use their magic to disarm their opponents while otherwise leaving them uninjured. Mastery of this technique allows the caster to attempted a Blast out of Hand action with a non-AoE ranged indirect Combat Spell, and reducing called shot penalty by -1 (To a -3 Penalty, see SR5 Core Page 195) regardless of success or failure the spell causes no damage. (This Technique can only be learned by the martial artist after they have master all other styles techniques)

 
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Kendaan on (10:05:11/06-03-18)
Brandishing a Wand in a fight is also the best way to tell everyone you're a mage...

I'm surprised "Geek the Mage" hasn't been mentioned yet!

All the part aboutagic in the books start with the advice, don't look like a Mage.

Unless the GM purposefully make NPC ignore player brandishing a Wand (which would kinda break suspension of disbelief), wands would be strictly reserved for non combat situation (so probably ritual casting/binding/enchanting which are the only ones that will never happen in a fight)

No amount of bonuses would be worth having g a big neon sign saying "shoot me"
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (12:39:45/06-03-18)
Brandishing a Wand in a fight is also the best way to tell everyone you're a mage...

I'm surprised "Geek the Mage" hasn't been mentioned yet!

All the part aboutagic in the books start with the advice, don't look like a Mage.

Unless the GM purposefully make NPC ignore player brandishing a Wand (which would kinda break suspension of disbelief), wands would be strictly reserved for non combat situation (so probably ritual casting/binding/enchanting which are the only ones that will never happen in a fight)

No amount of bonuses would be worth having g a big neon sign saying "shoot me"

LOL But it's what makes the game interesting :)
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Reaver on (13:36:32/06-03-18)
Brandishing a Wand in a fight is also the best way to tell everyone you're a mage...

I'm surprised "Geek the Mage" hasn't been mentioned yet!

All the part aboutagic in the books start with the advice, don't look like a Mage.

Unless the GM purposefully make NPC ignore player brandishing a Wand (which would kinda break suspension of disbelief), wands would be strictly reserved for non combat situation (so probably ritual casting/binding/enchanting which are the only ones that will never happen in a fight)

No amount of bonuses would be worth having g a big neon sign saying "shoot me"


SHHH!!!!!!

(You are revealing the master plan!!)
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (13:41:23/06-03-18)
Brandishing a Wand in a fight is also the best way to tell everyone you're a mage...

I'm surprised "Geek the Mage" hasn't been mentioned yet!

All the part aboutagic in the books start with the advice, don't look like a Mage.

Unless the GM purposefully make NPC ignore player brandishing a Wand (which would kinda break suspension of disbelief), wands would be strictly reserved for non combat situation (so probably ritual casting/binding/enchanting which are the only ones that will never happen in a fight)

No amount of bonuses would be worth having g a big neon sign saying "shoot me"


SHHH!!!!!!

(You are revealing the master plan!!)

You're both no Fun! LOL.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (20:55:21/06-03-18)
What do you think of the Style? Too cheesey? Not Enough Cheesey? Needs more Salt?
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Mirikon on (15:36:11/06-06-18)
OK, late jumping in on this, but here's my .02 nuyen. Under the rules, there are three ways you can include wands without any houseruling whatsoever. First, they would make a nice power or centering focus, depending on tradition. Second, a Geas forcing them to use a wand or suffer a penalty to their rolls is perfectly acceptable for many traditions. Third, using a wand as the lynchpin for alchemical preparations.

Well, there's actually a fourth, though it gets away from spellcasting. A mage of a Possession Tradition could have a wand as a prepared vessel, allowing them to easily fill it with a spirit and unleash the spirit's powers. A mage with an Ally Spirit could have their spirit have the relatively innocuous form of a wand, for any number of reasons.


Of course, if they introduced Spell Matrices from Earthdawn, then a wand would make an excellent way to hold the physical matrix of a spell, allowing you to 'channel' through it to use the included spell.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Gorstavich on (19:06:57/06-06-18)
Of course, if they introduced Spell Matrices from Earthdawn, then a wand would make an excellent way to hold the physical matrix of a spell, allowing you to 'channel' through it to use the included spell.

Think of the crowd we are dealing with, Mirikon.  If matrices were a thing, we'd be up to our artificial eyeballs in gunblades.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (19:16:50/06-06-18)
Think of the crowd we are dealing with, Mirikon.  If matrices were a thing, we'd be up to our artificial eyeballs in gunblades.

Sigh, don't tempt me.

PS Honestly No One has an Opinion on my MA Style? Was it really that bad?  The board isn't famous for being nice so, I'm little concerned.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Bamce on (20:00:57/06-06-18)
Between foci and fetish's and all the other various magic run things, Why do you need even more?
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (23:05:33/06-06-18)
Between foci and fetish's and all the other various magic run things, Why do you need even more?

Well that wasn't really what i was asking but I'm very happy to answer. This is a modern RPG, the need for new content is never really ending. Magic books sell, so more magic content is useful. That said I don't think my little house rules will ever actually see print so those are both kinda moot points. But Wands are a popular prop in the fantasy of Wizards and so are something folks in the groups that enjoy playing mages will like. This is something that would increase the danger for mages (As it would visibly identify the mage to the Opfor), but would offer a benefit for doing so. Also it's rare you can add something that makes magic less lethal, and have people consider getting it. It's also not the first magic based martial art, there was one in FA. So this just more options. For all those reason I think it's reasonably solid set of house rules.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Reaver on (02:45:33/06-07-18)
Think of the crowd we are dealing with, Mirikon.  If matrices were a thing, we'd be up to our artificial eyeballs in gunblades.

Sigh, don't tempt me.

PS Honestly No One has an Opinion on my MA Style? Was it really that bad?  The board isn't famous for being nice so, I'm little concerned.

Honestly?!?

Ok. Remember, you asked.


As I was reading those rules, in my head, I had this running image of some pasty-faced Harry Potter reject/fan jumping out in from of a large security troll, while brandishing a wand like one would a knife. The troll looks down, sighs, "An other one." He mumbles as he promptly grabs the flailing mage, takes the wand from him, turns him ass over kettle, and inserts the wand before tossing the brat over his shoulder.




You asked.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (07:50:32/06-07-18)

Honestly?!?

Ok. Remember, you asked.


As I was reading those rules, in my head, I had this running image of some pasty-faced Harry Potter reject/fan jumping out in from of a large security troll, while brandishing a wand like one would a knife. The troll looks down, sighs, "An other one." He mumbles as he promptly grabs the flailing mage, takes the wand from him, turns him ass over kettle, and inserts the wand before tossing the brat over his shoulder.


You asked.

LOL I did indeed.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (08:27:11/06-07-18)
I could point out the whole idea would be so those pasty face kids would actually know what to do with wand instead holding it like a useless wooden knife but I guess there will always be wanna be's.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Bamce on (09:52:32/06-07-18)
Therr are already fetishes and foci that can easily take the form of wands
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: adzling on (10:26:48/06-07-18)
this

Therr are already fetishes and foci that can easily take the form of wands
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Mirikon on (12:21:01/06-07-18)
Of course, if they introduced Spell Matrices from Earthdawn, then a wand would make an excellent way to hold the physical matrix of a spell, allowing you to 'channel' through it to use the included spell.

Think of the crowd we are dealing with, Mirikon.  If matrices were a thing, we'd be up to our artificial eyeballs in gunblades.
You could already make gunblades in 4th with the weapon mod rules. It was stupid, not very functional, and likely to have people laughing at you all over the place, but you could do it.

Actually, way back in 2012 I came up with an idea for doing spell matrix items. Basically, they hold a spell formula (or more than one) at a certain force, and once you bond with the item, you can cast that spell (or those spells) at that force. You use your spellcasting skill and resist drain as normal, but the spells from the matrix can't benefit from foci unless the item is also a focus. So you could have an old flintlock pistol that had an F5 Flamethrower spell in it, for instance, and when you bonded with it, you'd be able to pull the trigger and unleash the spell. And so on.

https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=6745.msg119739#msg119739
That's the link to the original thread.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Gorstavich on (14:20:02/06-07-18)
You could already make gunblades in 4th with the weapon mod rules. It was stupid, not very functional, and likely to have people laughing at you all over the place, but you could do it.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/5/6968731_447044e9bf_z.jpg?zz=1 (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/5/6968731_447044e9bf_z.jpg?zz=1)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0U/TRl_K7qhDdI/AAAAAAAAAp8/t4q_bQEMHN8/s1600/pistol-sword1.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0U/TRl_K7qhDdI/AAAAAAAAAp8/t4q_bQEMHN8/s1600/pistol-sword1.JPG)

Complete tangent... I am vastly amused that the gunblade concept has an actual historical basis.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Reaver on (14:48:36/06-07-18)
Yes.

And they were a failure back then too :P

Hard to load, hard to aim, prone to blade warping due to repeated heat stress, low caliber so little penatration....

But good at making a smoke screens!
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (15:00:49/06-07-18)
People have been making Gun blade for years and years.
And yes I'm well aware you can get them in 5th as well. It's never actually been hard.
Further given that we have two fire arms specific martial arts (Gun Fu, and Fire Fight) and atleast two others that play nice with them (Krav and ROSS).
It's also worth noting it really fine that they are epic inaccurate your going to shoot them from less five feet away, so as long as muzzle velocity isn't zero you will be fine.

But regardless I don't want 4 magic martial arts, I just want one. Seems fair to me :D
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (15:03:11/06-07-18)
Therr are already fetishes and foci that can easily take the form of “wands”
Yes I responded to that point, did you miss my answer? Did you just not like it?
The fact there more then one thing can look like wand some how obviates the concept of a wand Martial Art?
I don't believe so.

Same goes for you Adzling.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: adzling on (15:51:38/06-07-18)
yup i didn't read up all the way.

apologies
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (15:56:39/06-07-18)
yup i didn't read up all the way.

apologies

No worries, just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Reaver on (23:27:36/06-07-18)
Just admit it,

You watched "Bright" recently, and watched "the wand" action in that and said: "Cool, how do I bring that to Shadowrun" didn't you?  :D
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (23:53:12/06-07-18)
Just admit it,

You watched "Bright" recently, and watched "the wand" action in that and said: "Cool, how do I bring that to Shadowrun" didn't you?  :D

LOL, I wasn't actually huge fan of Bright, though I do think that ORC killed it. If really wanted to bring Bight the Shadowrun, I'd be writing up some kind for crazy combat/focus fetish thing that let you crush your enemies with single flick.

Naa this much more, that i'm really sick of SR mages running around with AKs, acting like you need to be able to shoot gun to be effective. If your gonna be a Wizard. Then Wizard the heck up! Show'em you gotta pair, and can tell the laws of physics to sit down shut the heck while you destroy enemies with Lightning and Fire! Be a Magi one of the Wise and teach your fellow runners not to mess with wizards, cause they are subtle and quick to anger!

Oh and I am of course also a harry potter fan, so disarming a wand seems like BA thing to do also.


PS who's Bamce and why am i seeing'em for the first time now?
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Mirikon on (11:58:02/06-08-18)
The mages with guns are that way because:

A) Guns don't cause drain.
B) Checking a gun at the door makes people feel better so that they don't question whether you're a mage.
C) Running around without obvious weapons (or, alternatively, running around with obviously magical weapons) is a great way to have people yell 'Geek the Mage first', and shoot you many, many times.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (12:21:19/06-08-18)
The mages with guns are that way because:

A) Guns don't cause drain.
B) Checking a gun at the door makes people feel better so that they don't question whether you're a mage.
C) Running around without obvious weapons (or, alternatively, running around with obviously magical weapons) is a great way to have people yell 'Geek the Mage first', and shoot you many, many times.

Yes I do understand the obvious Mirikon, and I did discuss this point. But I'll say it again explicitly so everyone can have it in plan English. Yes practicing the Martial Art does increase the caster's risk, as they are easy to identify and that is an understood component of the whole thing. So if one does this, they better have a good plan how to handle it.

Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Sterling on (10:36:29/06-16-18)
Think of the crowd we are dealing with, Mirikon.  If matrices were a thing, we'd be up to our artificial eyeballs in gunblades.

Sigh, don't tempt me.

PS Honestly No One has an Opinion on my MA Style? Was it really that bad?  The board isn't famous for being nice so, I'm little concerned.

Honestly?!?

Ok. Remember, you asked.


As I was reading those rules, in my head, I had this running image of some pasty-faced Harry Potter reject/fan jumping out in from of a large security troll, while brandishing a wand like one would a knife. The troll looks down, sighs, "An other one." He mumbles as he promptly grabs the flailing mage, takes the wand from him, turns him ass over kettle, and inserts the wand before tossing the brat over his shoulder.




You asked.

That would certainly explain why most mages seem to have a stick up their ass.....
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Nebulous on (13:38:36/07-14-18)
In my opinion, wands and the wand martial art posted here don't seem too out of place in Shadowrun(though the numbers on the martial art seem a bit light but Im not sure at the moment how high to make it for players to seem interested in it.) 

The main problem is that players are a fickle bunch and the power of Shineh/murderhobo compells a good deal.  I could see a good deal of specialist elf units(maybe a member in the Ghosts) having wand slingers with crazy amounts of area and indirect spells.

As for a player using them, its a character "quirk" or distinctive style.  Something to play up and have fun with.
Title: Re: Wands
Post by: Marcus on (14:04:06/07-14-18)
Wonderful someone who gets it!!

Martial Art numbers are in general very light, this style is in keeping with system reality.