Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: adzling on (11:56:04/03-18-16)

Title: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: adzling on (11:56:04/03-18-16)
The only difference I can divine is that Image Magnification requires you to Take Aim to get the bonus while the Improved Range Finder does not.

Agree/ Disagree?
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: gradivus on (14:51:47/03-18-16)
If you use the improved range finder it reduces range modifiers by one. So a -3 becomes a -2.
Vision Magnification reduces the range category[/b ]by one. So long range becomes medium.

The advantage of the improved range finder is you don't have to take aim.
The advantage of vision magnification is that you have a smaller penalty at ranges beyond medium.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: ScytheKnight on (03:00:32/03-19-16)
And both become irrelevant if something else is causing a bigger penalty.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Mirikon on (11:54:22/03-19-16)
In other words, which one is better depends on the role you're intending for the weapon.

Improved Range Finder is better for, say, an assault rifle where you may need to engage enemies at range, especially while either closing or fleeing from the enemy. Fluid firefights are what you should be thinking here.

Vision Magnification is better for, say, sniper rifles, where you're looking to make accurate shots at long range. Hunting or ambush situations are the key here.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (12:54:41/03-19-16)
We houseruled that Improved Range Finder also shifts the penalty by one category, as that makes it both more consistent with existing rules (and avoids questions related to multiple environment modifiers) and makes it worth the significantly higher cost.

I'd have to check, but I believe this is also more consistent with the previous edition; we just really didn't like all the questions brought up by IRF reducing the modifier, not category, by one.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Pap Renvela on (15:05:48/03-19-16)
We houseruled that Improved Range Finder also shifts the penalty by one category, as that makes it both more consistent with existing rules (and avoids questions related to multiple environment modifiers) and makes it worth the significantly higher cost.

I'd have to check, but I believe this is also more consistent with the previous edition; we just really didn't like all the questions brought up by IRF reducing the modifier, not category, by one.

Since I tend to use BF/FA    i usually aim in between shots anyway so have never bought the range finder.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: ScytheKnight on (18:33:20/03-20-16)
The best option of the lot however is Hawk Eye quality, automatically shifts the range bands one step. That said, about the most you're going to be able to do to your eyes after that is imagelink/smartlink chip them.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Rooks on (18:56:08/03-20-16)
And tetrachrome for +3 perception and night vision
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Novocrane on (20:34:49/03-20-16)
about the most you're going to be able to do to your eyes after that is imagelink/smartlink chip them.
That would be cyberware - one of two things hawkeye is incompatible with.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: ScytheKnight on (23:11:54/03-20-16)
Quote from: Run Faster P147
The quality is part of charactersí natural eyes and is not compatible with electronic vision enhancements and/or cyber- or bioware augmentations or replacements.

Once again, it comes down to what exactly means what, something SR5 is notoriously bad at.

In my games I allow Image/Smart Link to be chipped into the eyes because to me, they are an overlay rather than an enhancement. They do nothing to attempt to improve your eyes in any way, they just give you extra information on top of your eyesight.

As it is with many things, it's really up to the GM, and that's how I've ruled it as the GM of my table.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (23:59:49/03-20-16)
That's an interesting interpretation, given the stipulation of "not compatible with electronic vision enhancements" and Smartlink being listed under Vision Enhancements.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Mirikon on (01:32:58/03-21-16)
Agreed with Herr Brackhaus. That's like saying the sky is green and the grass is blue.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: ScytheKnight on (03:58:01/03-21-16)
Should also note that these are the ONLY things I allow, as anything else is more about altering vision, rather than displaying another layer on top of existing vision.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Pap Renvela on (05:45:09/03-21-16)
 I guess the second part of the statement that specifically prohibits cyberware and bioware is not spelled out enough....
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: ScytheKnight on (07:08:18/03-21-16)
If you take the strictest view, that makes Hawk Eye totally incompatible with Image/Smart Link of any kind, internal or external.

And trust me, I see what you're saying. I can see that anything that attempts to alter the ways your eyes work (thermographic vision or vision enhancement for example) would mess up Hawk Eye. Image/Smart Link however doesn't do anything to change how the eyes work, it simply displays an overlay on top of what the eyes naturally see. To me at least, that seems like it would still work.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: k_night on (09:25:27/03-21-16)
I read the Hawk Eye description to see what you can conbine it with,
but strict reading it can only be used with analoge devices  ???
So that would mean only optical vision magnification  :o
Or am i missing something?
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Mirikon on (14:37:01/03-21-16)
No, you're not missing anything, k_night, other than ScytheKnight's perhaps wishful thinking. So you could use hawk eye with optical binoculars, an optical scope, adept powers, spells, drugs that increase perception... might be others, but electronic enhancements, cyberware, or bioware are right out. That includes smartlinks, too.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Reaver on (18:55:41/03-21-16)
Not seeing an issue here.

Different options for different builds. Not everything has to work with everything.....

And its a nice boost for essence important characters like mages and adepts that may need a vision boost.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Dinendae on (03:09:09/03-22-16)
Not seeing an issue here.

Different options for different builds. Not everything has to work with everything.....

And its a nice boost for essence important characters like mages and adepts that may need a vision boost.


Not to mention being dirt cheap to buy, even after character creation.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: k_night on (12:01:20/03-22-16)
ok  :D
so it a quality akin to lightning reflexes :P
very usefull for a specific build,
but useless if you plan to use something better :P
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: adzling on (13:51:58/03-22-16)
I think it would works with Smartlink eyeware and Tetrachromatic vision as the former does not affect the eye's ability to see in the dark/ focus etc while the latter is NOT cyberware or bio but Geneware that alters your genes to perceive the additional spectra.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Pap Renvela on (15:31:52/03-22-16)
I think it would works with Smartlink eyeware and Tetrachromatic vision as the former does not affect the eye's ability to see in the dark/ focus etc while the latter is NOT cyberware or bio but Geneware that alters your genes to perceive the additional spectra.

I think reflex enhancers and wired reflexes would work witout wireless- but that's not the rule.

Smartlink is cyberware.
Hawkeye does not work with cyberware.

You want to houserule it differently- that's up to you and your group.
But that's what it would be, a houserule.

Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: adzling on (16:07:52/03-22-16)
Agreed Pap re: smartlink implant.

Regarding Tetrachromatic it's clear it will work per RAW at least.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Pap Renvela on (02:03:06/03-23-16)
I didn't chime in on Tetrachromatic as RAI vs RAW discussions are pretty much pointless unless the writer or Catalyst steps in and comments. And that usually doesn't happen. So RAW wins out usually unless it's clearly nonsensical.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: ScytheKnight on (03:21:04/03-23-16)
must admitting still a little confused at how an overlay is incompatible...
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (07:04:23/03-23-16)
ScytheKnight
Because the rules say so unequivocally. There is literally no ambiguity there, as has been pointed out by others; Hawk Eye is incompatible with vision enhancement, smartlink is a vision enhancement, QED.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone is trying to claim that your house rule is invalid, just that the written rules are quite clear in this case. Remember, fiction and rules are not always 100% aligned, but in this case the rules for Hawk Eye are quite straight forward.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Mirikon on (09:37:11/03-23-16)
As Herr B said. This isn't one of those 'grey areas' where there's either no rules or conflicting rules. This is black and white. RAW says no, full stop.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Adamo1618 on (10:05:37/03-23-16)
I didn't chime in on Tetrachromatic as RAI vs RAW discussions are pretty much pointless unless the writer or Catalyst steps in and comments. And that usually doesn't happen. So RAW wins out usually unless it's clearly nonsensical.

I'd call this incompatability nonsensical though.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Mirikon on (11:48:11/03-23-16)
Adamo, Hawk Eye is all about the natural eye being better than normal. Cyberware, bioware, and electronic enhancements interfere with the way the eye naturally sees. Yes, it improves it in some ways, but it still interferes with the natural process. Even an overlay is still putting a filter between the eye and the light, changing the way it enters. Optical enhancements still work, because they don't change the light, simply focusing it. Magic works differently from that, enhancing the body or mind directly, so it still works. Drugs work on body chemistry, and some help the brain process images better, so those still work.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Rooks on (22:50:55/03-23-16)
Smartlink and tetra don't change the eye either mage would be able to cast spells in the dark with some light
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Pap Renvela on (23:08:14/03-23-16)
Smartlink and tetra don't change the eye either mage would be able to cast spells in the dark with some light

The only explanation needed- the rules say no.

Arguing the physics or physiology of non-existent technology is a waste of time.

It's a game.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Rooks on (14:45:13/03-24-16)
Smartlink and tetra don't change the eye either mage would be able to cast spells in the dark with some light

The only explanation needed- the rules say no.

Arguing the physics or physiology of non-existent technology with me is a waste of time.

It's a game.
right cause as soon as a mage wears glasses omg I cant cast spells anymore!
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Medicineman on (14:51:11/03-24-16)
>>>> right cause as soon as a mage wears glasses omg I cant cast spells anymore!

only with astral perception ;)
 you're perfectly fine getting a LOS with your normal vision

>>>>It's a game.
Yeah but it's a RPG wich tries to simulate an imaginary world with all its physical Laws,etc.
You would be totally right if SR would be a Boardgame (like f.E. Monopoly where the ugliest Player can win the 2nd Price in a beauty contest when he draws this card)
but not when it's a RPG.
There you need some common sense and sometimes Players have more common sense then the developers !
the BBB is not a Bible and you don't go to RPG Hell if you don't follow the BBB Word by Word and Letter by Letter

with a common Dance
(I wonder if Matt Dillahunty can Dance.... ?)
Medicineman

Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Mirikon on (17:26:43/03-24-16)
Smartlink and tetra don't change the eye either mage would be able to cast spells in the dark with some light
Though the essence loss (and resulting magic loss) would hurt their ability to cast. And they wouldn't be able to use the Smartlink to help target their spells without special gear.

Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (02:14:39/03-25-16)
Meh.  Vision mods have gone downhill since 3rd, when a smart person would have natural low-light, chipped thermo and e-mag, and nictitating membranes for the best set yet.  "I shoot him."  "Well, he's at extreme range in bad lighting conditions ..." "... which makes my target number a three instead of a two.  Blam."
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Mirikon on (12:39:50/03-25-16)
Just remember that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Reaver on (16:21:30/03-25-16)
Just remember that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Why are you getting birds drunk????

Seems like a waste of perfectly good booze!
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: MijRai on (18:00:36/03-25-16)
Who knows, get them ripping drunk, then slaughter, then marinate in more booze.  Might be delicious. 
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Reaver on (18:22:36/03-25-16)
Who knows, get them ripping drunk, then slaughter, then marinate in more booze.  Might be delicious.

only if having goose liver pate.


hmmmm... goose liver pate.....


Be right back...
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (22:56:18/03-25-16)
Who knows, get them ripping drunk, then slaughter, then marinate in more booze.  Might be dDelicious. 
I agree - absolutely delicious.
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: welldressedgent on (01:22:21/03-27-16)
Maybe ot but if you're gonna bird post...
it seems like hawk-eye and few others - maybe human-looking? - should not be allowed post char-gen.

wdg
Title: Re: difference between Image Magnification and Improved Range Finder?
Post by: Rooks on (01:41:21/03-27-16)
There's a surgery for that