Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: raleel on (12:48:32/01-27-14)

Title: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (12:48:32/01-27-14)
So, bows that can be adjusted to have a lighter draw exist IRL. Why do we not have these in Shadowrun where we have Adepts with attribute boost?
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: PeterSmith on (12:51:56/01-27-14)
Sounds like something that would be more appropriate for fluff than crunch.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (13:23:41/01-27-14)
no doubt that it could be done easily that way. It seems rather important for crunch because bows are strength-based damage, rating, cost, and arrows are secondarily derived from strength as well. I can't believe that it hasn't made it into any version of shadowrun that I can find. Heck, carbon fiber arrows have been out since SR1.

My own GM and I are adding "adjust strength down" as a wireless feature.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ZeConster on (13:53:49/01-27-14)
IIRC, Attribute Boost (Strength) only affects dice pools, not the Strength you use for bows.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Namikaze on (13:55:15/01-27-14)
I'm not familiar with how reducing the strength of a pull works in real life.  If I knew more about the actual process, I'd probably be able to help a little.  I would imagine that it involves re-stringing the bow, yes?

Also, ZeConster is correct - Attribute Boost of any attribute only affects dice pools, not derived stats (such as damage).  If you want to be a better archer, you're better off taking Attribute Boost (Agility) so that you can get more hits on your attack.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: PeterSmith on (13:57:23/01-27-14)
I know it's been a while since I've shot, so correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand, a bow at a given draw rating will impart the same amount of energy to an arrow when it's released as every other bow with that same draw rating? If this is the case, it doesn't matter how the arrow is drawn back. It only matters what happens when the arrow and bowstring are released.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (14:00:57/01-27-14)
IIRC, Attribute Boost (Strength) only affects dice pools, not the Strength you use for bows.

not disagreeing with you, but would that not make Attribute Boost (strength) functionally useless for damage? Damage doesn't appear to be a dice pool. I freely admit I'm not an expert at SR5 (or any SR for that matter).

That would seem to make it.. well.. not very useful.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ZeConster on (14:11:12/01-27-14)
It would, which is why many people hate it.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (14:33:36/01-27-14)
GM i just chatted it out and ran through a couple of things.

Functionally, we both agree that it's probably too much, and that strength modification is almost useless without the static values. We also think there should probably be more strength stuff :)

So, issue solved. I'm somewhat sad, but also pretty OK with it.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (22:00:19/01-27-14)
Strength Boost is indeed fairly close to worthless.  The only real Attribute Boost spell that gets much use is Agility Boost.

If Boost: Strength DID work, personally, I'd be totally ok with adjustable strength bows.  It's not as if the game is in danger of almighty bows destroying everything in their path.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (22:46:08/01-27-14)
I'm not familiar with how reducing the strength of a pull works in real life.  If I knew more about the actual process, I'd probably be able to help a little.  I would imagine that it involves re-stringing the bow, yes?

Also, ZeConster is correct - Attribute Boost of any attribute only affects dice pools, not derived stats (such as damage).  If you want to be a better archer, you're better off taking Attribute Boost (Agility) so that you can get more hits on your attack.

Only on a very old school bow. Nowadays you can adjust their weight with an allen wrench and turning a bolt (or 2 or 4, depending on the bow). In my mind if we have pistols that can fold themselves into blocks of metal and knifes that can become form fitting in sheathes, adjustable strength bows seems well within the norm.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (22:47:03/01-27-14)
I know it's been a while since I've shot, so correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand, a bow at a given draw rating will impart the same amount of energy to an arrow when it's released as every other bow with that same draw rating? If this is the case, it doesn't matter how the arrow is drawn back. It only matters what happens when the arrow and bowstring are released.

Yep. I was referring to the draw weight, not the draw length :)
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (08:10:35/01-29-14)
IIRC, Attribute Boost (Strength) only affects dice pools, not the Strength you use for bows.

not disagreeing with you, but would that not make Attribute Boost (strength) functionally useless for damage?
Yes it does and it also seems to be the point.

Strength is the only attribute that "double dips" in the sense that it provides more than a dice pool bonus to tests. (Ignoring limits for a moment) The only conceivable reason why the power would specifically state dice pools is to ensure the boost does not affect limits and secondary derived stats, such as melee damage.

Strength based weaponry is already very troublesome due to how high strength can get. Even a human can get up to strength 10 with relative ease, which makes a throwing knife equal to an assault rifle in terms of damage. It absolutely does not need to go further with adept powers.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (00:21:00/01-31-14)
Yes it does and it also seems to be the point.

Strength is the only attribute that "double dips" in the sense that it provides more than a dice pool bonus to tests. (Ignoring limits for a moment) The only conceivable reason why the power would specifically state dice pools is to ensure the boost does not affect limits and secondary derived stats, such as melee damage.

Strength based weaponry is already very troublesome due to how high strength can get. Even a human can get up to strength 10 with relative ease, which makes a throwing knife equal to an assault rifle in terms of damage. It absolutely does not need to go further with adept powers.

Counterpoint: there's two Strength skills.  Two.  Somehow I doubt it was intended for Boost Strength to be a drain granting, crappier version of the improved skill power.  Also, strength based weaponry is troublesome for the opposite reason - a human cannot get strength 10 with "relative ease," because that costs a lot or resources.  It is in fact the literal opposite of "with relative ease."  If you're an adept, you essentially cannot get strength 10 at all - which is stupid as hell, because adepts were always the "melee kung fu" dudes, and now they suck at it.  Lastly, it cannot "go further with adept powers."  methods of increasing attributes don't stack.  Ten is the cap for a human - period, forever, the end.

Also I'm not sure you can really say strength is the only skill that "double dips."  Agility provides movement and, like, nearly all the important skills in a fight.  Reaction and Intuition provide initiative and defense rolls.  Body and Will add health boxes.  Will, Logic, and Charisma potentially add to drain soak.  Logic is used to defend for a high number of spells.

So not only is Strength not the only one that double dips, it is, along with charisma, one of two stats that most runners will never use, ever.  The only reason to stack strength is 1) melee damage, and 2) physical limit.  And Boost Strength doesn't help either of those.

...In fact I'm pretty sure almost everything you said is the opposite of reality.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: JackVII on (00:34:01/01-31-14)
So not only is Strength not the only one that double dips, it is, along with charisma, one of two stats that most runners will never use, ever.

Wut?

(Although I do agree that it is stupid as hell that "hulking out" doesn't increase damage... the power is already limited by the Augmented Racial Max. If they wanted to put a reasonable limit on the power, they should have used the ranks in the power as a limit)
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: firebug on (01:06:18/01-31-14)
Strength and Charisma are definitely the stats I see dumped the most.  Even for the gangers or big brutes I see Charisma go before Logic most of the time.

And yeah, most runners honestly don't use Charisma.  A lot of the time whenever they could, they either direct the person to the Face or else just start shooting or swinging...  Players are surprisingly okay with just saying "oh you got me" whenever the Ork with 1 CHA has to try and lie and instead has to just shoot stuff like he wanted to in the first place.

Really though...  Attribute Boost in general is kinda shit.  Only Agility boost is useful, since REA is the easiest stat (well, not 'easiest' but everyone will take some levels of Increase Reflexes) for an Adept to improve, BOD has even less useful skills than STR.  AGI may not increase your movement speed, but a +3 to your attack tests for six combat turns it nice.  You can hardly say it's just STR that's getting the short end of the stick.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ZeConster on (06:18:41/01-31-14)
I guess this is for normal campaigns. In our base Missions group, 3 out of 4 characters have enough Charisma+Negotiation that 2 of them can reliably help the third through Teamwork tests - which you'll need to get any net hits against some of the contacts.
Aside from faces and the Social limit in general, Charisma is also useful for Composure, Judge Intentions, Technomancers and Shamans (and Hermetics who like to bind spirits), plenty of mentor spirits, handling contacts, and not having to spend Karma on starting play with more than one useful contact to begin with.
Attribute Boost (Reaction) might be helpful for mystic adepts: rather than invest Power Points into Improved Reflexes, they can just combine the Increase Reflexes spell with Attribute Boost (Reaction). And Attribute Boost (Body) seems like it's helpful for soaking damage (since you use a dice pool for that). This doesn't change that I don't like the Attribute Boost rules, but aside from Strength, they all have their potential uses.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Michael Chandra on (06:37:18/01-31-14)
On EVERY Negotiation test they cap out on the maximum bonus they can provide the lead negotiator. Still scored 0 net hits vs Sarah. ;D

All Attribute Boosts do have use, but the lack of a damage boost for Strength is plain silly. I can understand not boosting limits+inherent values, but damage seems unfair to me, since Strength is nearly-always useless for the rest.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (11:48:07/01-31-14)
So not only is Strength not the only one that double dips, it is, along with charisma, one of two stats that most runners will never use, ever.

Wut?

(Although I do agree that it is stupid as hell that "hulking out" doesn't increase damage... the power is already limited by the Augmented Racial Max. If they wanted to put a reasonable limit on the power, they should have used the ranks in the power as a limit)

Charisma doesn't do much outside of Charisma skills, basically.  It's easy to make a character with no intention of talking to people, and while a smart DM will still make you do it, chances are, it'll still come up less then most other stats.  To put it another way, they're the only two stats with little to no in-combat relevance.  No matter what you do, every character is GOING to use Logic, Will, Intuition, Reflexes, and Agility at some point. 

Personally, I hate dump stats in general and try to never have 1's, and usually only have a 2 in strength, unless I'm playing a street scum style game.  But the lowest stat is always going to be strength.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Michael Chandra on (11:50:50/01-31-14)
Outbluffing opponents or talking them down qualifies as combat relevance to me. And not every character will use Logic.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: JackVII on (11:52:46/01-31-14)
Different table experiences, I suppose. Most of the games I have played in have HEAVILY relied on Charisma skills and pretty much everyone has to use them between Con, Etiquette, Impersonation, and Negotiation, particularly the last one given how it ties in heavily with working with contacts.

ETA: With that said, STR is my most common dump stat given the not quite attractive state of melee combat.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Mithlas on (11:55:42/01-31-14)
I think we can all agree that any character is going to have a dump stat, that's kind of a common theme that's encouraged by the design of tabletop RPGs and is somewhat seen in reality - some people have scrawny muscles and some people have pea-sized brains and go into politics. But more on the main thread topic:

I'm not familiar with how reducing the strength of a pull works in real life. I would imagine that it involves re-stringing the bow, yes?
Only on a very old school bow. Nowadays you can adjust their weight with an allen wrench and turning a bolt (or 2 or 4, depending on the bow). In my mind if we have pistols that can fold themselves into blocks of metal and knifes that can become form fitting in sheathes, adjustable strength bows seems well within the norm.
I'm inclined to agree - I haven't had enough money to keep up with archery since I started college, but I was active in archery in Boy Scouts and a local club for a couple years when I was younger and the troop quartermaster only had to take a couple minutes with a pocket adjustable wrench to tweak several bows. That draw strength influences how much strength you need to pull the arrow back to the proper position and hence how much energy that arrow is going to fly off at, but you can (and I did) see two completely different bows (different size, different companies that made them) that were both composite-pulley bows that I could use (after adjustment) at exactly the same draw strength. That being the case and Shadowrun only having advanced in technology, I can see either an Armorer or Archery (2, complex action) test to adjust the strength of a bow anywhere from 1 to its maximum rating.

Does anybody really disagree with the ability to buy or modify bows to be able to adjust them so lower-strength characters can use them, whether or not you're taking advantage of strength-boosting spells?
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: JackVII on (11:58:27/01-31-14)
Nope, I think that is a fully reasonable ruling.

If there is a price increase (which could distinguish between a compund pulley bow and some old school non-modifiable amerind job), I would limit it to +100 nuyen or so...
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Michael Chandra on (11:58:34/01-31-14)
I'd allow it if they pay extra, 50% more and up to half their rating in lower Strength.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ZeConster on (12:00:11/01-31-14)
I wouldn't say my Missions character really has a dump stat (3/3/3/3 physical, 6/5/5/4 mental), only dump skills.

Out of curiosity: how much time would adjusting the Strength rating of a bow take?
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: JackVII on (12:02:21/01-31-14)
Real world or game? I think he suggested an extended test with a Threshold of 2 and a time increment of 1 Complex Action.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Michael Chandra on (13:52:24/01-31-14)
That's not an extended test, really. Not at that threshold. Make it a threshold of 20, or one of BowRating+RatingDifference.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (14:18:29/01-31-14)
As the man said:

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I haven't had enough money to keep up with archery since I started college, but I was active in archery in Boy Scouts and a local club for a couple years when I was younger and the troop quartermaster only had to take a couple minutes with a pocket adjustable wrench to tweak several bows.

Seems like the sort of thing that you are talking about a few seconds per bow at most. It also seems like the sort of thing that one could easily make a wireless benefit. You pay for the max strength, adjustability to be crappier is just a convenience at most.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ZeConster on (14:43:59/01-31-14)
"a couple" and "several" can still mean anything from 5 to 30 seconds per bow. But yes, this does sound like something that could be a feature of an internal-smartgun-system bow.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Mithlas on (14:56:03/01-31-14)
If I recall he only took 10-15 seconds - though he was obviously extremely experienced at the tweaking, which Shadowrun might represent with a high Armorer or Archery skill rating. I do agree that it sounds like a good feature to package in or control with an (internal?) smartgun-system bow.

The only issue with how the bows would be adjustable is that they need to be built that way from the start from all I know - you can get significantly cheaper bows that can't be adjusted, but those are little but curved pieces of plastic (wood in the old days) and string.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (15:10:00/01-31-14)
The first thing I find myself asking is "Does this damage the game?"

To which comes another question: Are bows currently overpowered, and/or will this overpower them?

No, and no.

So I go to the second question: Will this make bows better to use?

Yes, it will.

I support the smartgun link thing or wireless bonus or what have you that would allow bows to adjust "themselves."  I mean, let's all quietly admit that this would do absolutely nothing to make bows in any way "supreme" over guns, which seems to be the typical fear.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (16:27:50/01-31-14)
I like it as a feature of a "smartbow" system, actually. Bows don't really get many of the "flavor" benefits (ammo counting, heat build up, material stress, changing modes, ejecting a clip, firing without pulling a trigger), and some of those even have some mechanical action involved. This would be a nice one to add in. And lets face it, it's at most only going to happen about twice a fight (once when you use attribute boost, another time if you happen to use it again)

It would probably have to be on a compound bow, although one could envision a metal that gained stiffness as an electrical charge was applied.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (08:14:12/02-01-14)
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Counterpoint: there's two Strength skills.  Two.  Somehow I doubt it was intended for Boost Strength to be a drain granting, crappier version of the improved skill power.
It may or may not be their intention for Attribute Boost Strength to be crappy, but given that the text first states that it increases attribute rating and then specifically excludes anything that is not a dice pool makes it pretty clear that their intention was just that, to exclude everything that is not a dicepool.

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a human cannot get strength 10 with "relative ease," because that costs a lot or resources.  It is in fact the literal opposite of "with relative ease." If you're an adept, you essentially cannot get strength 10 at all - which is stupid as hell, because adepts were always the "melee kung fu" dudes, and now they suck at it.
Muscle Augmentation 4 costs 0.8 essence and 124000. Availability is pretty high, but you could get them used to make that a little easier. You can get rating 3 used ones at chargen and combine that with the adept power for +4. There are no rules that exclude adepts from augmentations. There is a tradeoff and the expenditure of resources, certainly, but overall, strength and agility are the easiest stats to raise (Ignoring the Increase Attribute line of spells which make all stats equal, but have their own problems to keep running). Some stats have caps lower than +4 because there is no 'ware for them. For strength, there are 3 different means (Muscle Augmentation, Muscle Replacement and Cyberlimbs) along with a fourth that can be combined with the former (Suprathyroid Gland). Try to find something that augments intuition.

To show you just how easy it is to be awesome at meele:
At Chargen (Resources C)
Used Muscle Augmentation 3: 0,75 Essence, 69.750 NuYen
Bone Density Augmentation 3: 0,9 Essense, 15.000 NuYen

+3 Strength and +2 Unarmed Damage. Combine with 6 Strength for 11P without any other bonuses. Adept with A Attributes, B Skills, C Resources, D Magic and E Race has Magic 3. Enough for Inc. Reflexes 2 and Critical Strike fpr 12P. That's an assault rifle strength punch right out of the gate with some Essence left for cybereyes and some money left for Qi Foci. He can improve his meele damage by 2 points with money without loosing any more magic with standart 'ware. Especially Bone Density Augmentation is dirt cheap. (50.000 for deltaware... .)

So how exactly is it hard or impossible to get 10 strength or build decent adepts? And before you go "but it's ware", that was *always* the case in Shadowrun. Magic alone has always been beaten by 'ware + magic except for the very very high end.

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Also I'm not sure you can really say strength is the only skill that "double dips."
It certainly isn't, but providing a direct damage increase is quite something else than movement isn't it? You are right though, it isn't the only one. I was wrong there.

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So not only is Strength not the only one that double dips, it is, along with charisma, one of two stats that most runners will never use, ever.
I don't know what kind of games you play in, but at my table, Charisma is a stat that is used more than any other. Most stats come into play one way or another in combat, but charisma comes into play in every single social interaction. My games have a lot more of that than they do have combat.
Strength is used pretty often too. Either passively as carrying capacity and the biggest factor in the physical limit or to break down doors, jump throgh windows, intimidation games etc.

Just because you do not roll a stat doesn't mean its not in play. In fact, in my experience, the lower the stat, the more often you roll it simply because the GM is not confident in your ability to perform a certain task.

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...In fact I'm pretty sure almost everything you said is the opposite of reality.
...
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: JackVII on (08:32:59/02-01-14)
Just from my perspective, I'm still not entirely certain what the problem is with having someone who has invested a decent amount of their resources in order to be able to punch as hard as an AR. I mean, it only takes Resources E to be able to shoot as hard as an AR and melee tends to be worse in general (you have to get there, there are more opportunities to defend oneself, it's a complex action to apply damage one time, etc). The only possible advantage that I see is the lack of an obvious weapon.

ETA: Sorry, I just realized this was wildly off-topic.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Michael Chandra on (11:50:26/02-01-14)
Beaumis: Attribute Boost is NOT clear about its intent. It provides both a list of what it supports and a list of what it doesn't support, and melee damage fits in neither of the two. Whether the intent is an inclusive or exclusive list isn't clear.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (15:22:21/02-01-14)
Everyone is free to do it however they like in their game I suppose.

For our game, muscle aug really wasn't an option, being extremely low resources and off priorities. GM and I chatted about it, and just asked the simple question "would you take critical strike over attribute boost if it affected damage?" Short if it is that I (in my probably somewhat naive view) couldn't think of a reason why I would take critical strike over 2 points of attribute boost. Heck, not even sure about over 1 point.  Simple action, minimum 2 rounds of you get a boost.  For me I was fairly guaranteed +2 for 4 rounds for drain that I could handle all day. Plenty of potential to get 3 or 4 points for the same drain. It affected more weapons, affected some ranged. It just seemed like compared to the other stuff there, it was too much.

That doesn't mean it was a good comparison, but it was the one available ;)
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: JackVII on (15:35:33/02-01-14)
Simple action, minimum 2 rounds of you get a boost.  For me I was fairly guaranteed +2 for 4 rounds for drain that I could handle all day. Plenty of potential to get 3 or 4 points for the same drain. It affected more weapons, affected some ranged. It just seemed like compared to the other stuff there, it was too much.
A lot of it depends on your Magic Rating and the level of Attribute Boost. Sure, if you have a swanky Magic rating, no problem, but if you're only rocking a Magic of 4, it isn't inconceivable to not roll any hits. I've typically seen it ruled that you still take drain even if you fail to get the boost.

Considering the issues with Critical Strike/Archetypes still in need of errata (like archetypes and examples having characters taking multiple ranks) it's possible they weren't even sure what they were balancing around...

So basically, reliability and action economy versus potentially awesome. I would imagine if Attribute Boost did improve damage, most melee adepts would take both.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (17:17:58/02-01-14)
Well certainly it depends on it. However, your  magic of 4 with 1 point in attribute boost only has a 13% chance of getting no successes, and 2/3 chance of getting 1 or 2.  Not inconceivable, to be sure, but those are some mighty good odds.  And yes, of course you still take the single point of drain ;) or wait, resist it. Pretty well guaranteed.

In my case, my adept has a 5 magic, so a bit better but not overly so.

It's not massive to be sure, but it is nice.  And even at relatively low magics it's quite reliable.  And yes, I am sure they would take both. They would take enough attribute boost to match 1/4 of their drain roll and then take critical strike.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (20:39:52/02-01-14)
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Beaumis: Attribute Boost is NOT clear about its intent. It provides both a list of what it supports and a list of what it doesn't support, and melee damage fits in neither of the two. Whether the intent is an inclusive or exclusive list isn't clear.
I was going to say I see your point, but then I reread the passage and I have to say, I don't. I do not see two lists. I see a broad statement of what the power does (increase attribute rating), a limitation (up to the augmented maximum) another limitation (only affects dice pools) and a statement that two derived attributes do not change.

This is a lot clearer than some other contested rules are. It states outright that it only affects dice pools. No matter which way you cut it, damage is not a dice pool.

Without precedence for an exclusion in the rule, there is no reason to assume anything not listed would be treated differently than the two things that are.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (22:47:50/02-01-14)
Muscle Augmentation 4 costs 0.8 essence and 124000. Availability is pretty high, but you could get them used to make that a little easier. You can get rating 3 used ones at chargen and combine that with the adept power for +4. There are no rules that exclude adepts from augmentations. There is a tradeoff and the expenditure of resources, certainly, but overall, strength and agility are the easiest stats to raise (Ignoring the Increase Attribute line of spells which make all stats equal, but have their own problems to keep running). Some stats have caps lower than +4 because there is no 'ware for them. For strength, there are 3 different means (Muscle Augmentation, Muscle Replacement and Cyberlimbs) along with a fourth that can be combined with the former (Suprathyroid Gland). Try to find something that augments intuition.

To show you just how easy it is to be awesome at meele:
At Chargen (Resources C)
Used Muscle Augmentation 3: 0,75 Essence, 69.750 NuYen
Bone Density Augmentation 3: 0,9 Essense, 15.000 NuYen

+3 Strength and +2 Unarmed Damage. Combine with 6 Strength for 11P without any other bonuses. Adept with A Attributes, B Skills, C Resources, D Magic and E Race has Magic 3. Enough for Inc. Reflexes 2 and Critical Strike fpr 12P. That's an assault rifle strength punch right out of the gate with some Essence left for cybereyes and some money left for Qi Foci. He can improve his meele damage by 2 points with money without loosing any more magic with standart 'ware. Especially Bone Density Augmentation is dirt cheap. (50.000 for deltaware... .)

So how exactly is it hard or impossible to get 10 strength or build decent adepts? And before you go "but it's ware", that was *always* the case in Shadowrun. Magic alone has always been beaten by 'ware + magic except for the very very high end.

Cool, you've spent all your resources and all your magic to do the same damage that any other character can do by throwing down an easy 3k nuyen.  And yeah, it sure was "easy" for you to do that, it only cost you both the entirety of your resources AND magic.  Wait, were you supposed to prove me wrong here?

Incidentally, despite how much work you put into that, your character is illegal.  How are you getting Magic 3?  Magic D for Adept starts you with Magic 2.  Plus one point from Human E makes three.  Minus two essence leaves you at one.  To quote the book, "Anything that reduces your Essences also reduces your Magic rating.  For every point (or fraction thereof) of Essence lost, both your current Magic Attribute and your maximum Magic Rating are reduced by one."
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Michael Chandra on (04:13:09/02-02-14)
another limitation (only affects dice pools) and a statement that two derived attributes do not change.
And that is exactly what I stated. It has an inclusive and an exclusive statement. The two are also connected by the ;, which suggests that the second flows out of the first. However, they are ignoring different consequences yet don't state it in a way that notes that these two consequences are merely possible consequences, which also means it's unclear whether they even thought about that the changed description also means no damage boost. So while you state there's no reason to assume otherwise, you also only have limited reason to not assume otherwise. So no, while it's extremely likely not meant to boost damage, the intent is not 100% certain.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (04:53:37/02-02-14)
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Cool, you've spent all your resources and all your magic to do the same damage that any other character can do by throwing down an easy 3k nuyen.  And yeah, it sure was "easy" for you to do that, it only cost you both the entirety of your resources AND magic.  Wait, were you supposed to prove me wrong here?
Dial down the hostility. Its uncalled for.
You went from "Its impossible" to exaggerating how much I spend to do it (I spend ~50% of the monetary and 33% of the essence resources.), so yeah. I'm pretty sure I did prove you wrong. ;)
 
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Incidentally, despite how much work you put into that, your character is illegal.
I unconsciously worked off an exploit there, but you're right. So the char has magic one. Still an adept with a decent punch. Or switch skills and magic, be more narrow and have more adept powers.

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So no, while it's extremely likely not meant to boost damage, the intent is not 100% certain.
Well I see your point there, but it's kind of a stretch. I know the school of "it doesn't say I can't" rule readings is a time honored tradition, but I have never subscribed to it so I tend to ignore it. No offense. ;)
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Michael Chandra on (04:59:55/02-02-14)
The problem is that they changed a description due to changes to the game mechanics, then don't properly cover every effect, so it's not entirely clear whether they want an inclusive or an exclusive effect. Without the introduction of Limits it wouldn't really be a problem here.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (08:14:00/02-02-14)
First off I apologize for getting aggressive.  Didn't mean it  :-\

With all due respect, I would say that having Magic 1 does not make you an adept, and rather succinctly proves my statement of "Adepts essentially cannot hit the bonus 4 in Strength."

Which brings me to the next problem; at Skills D, you haven't just "narrowed down" what you do, you've made what is essentially a one trick pony.  Again, the lion's share of your resources go into "match a weapon that costs 3k nuyen."  This is, I grant, a way to be an adept AND hit Strength 4.  However...now what?

This is sorta my main point to this.  Capping strength isn't casual.  It takes a lot of resources - and the end result is exceedingly mediocre.  Guns don't require any off those resources, and benefit from cover, range, and smartguns.  Bows, sure, they gain those benefits too - but they still require an incredible amount of resources.

Let's look at what this has cost you.  First off, you have to put Resources into C, then Skills at D, so that's no Edge for you.  I know this started as "Even a HUMAN can..." but it seems more like "ONLY a human can..." to me.  This essentially sets up that there is only one way to manage this.  And while I'm sure others will say I'm being dumb, I think something is legitimately lost when the only way to make a kung fu adept or true warrior of the blade is to take a blow to your Essence.  That's something that never sat well with me in SR4.

Secondly, those points in strength must come from somewhere else.  That means lower body or lower will.  Or maybe lower initiative and dodge from Reflexes and Intuition.  Or maybe you lose Logic and with it your magic defense.  Or Charisma, but hey, you said that one isn't a dump  ;).  Putting points in strength objectively makes you weaker in some other field, and it does so by a large degree.  Most character I see tend towards 2-3 Strength, so that's 3-4 points lost: the difference between A in Attributes, and B in Attributes.

And once more, your worry at the start was that strength is too powerful because it "double dips."  I contest this: it has two skills, effects recoil to a very small degree, largely builds physical limit, and grants melee damage.  If you did not care about melee damage, how far would those two skills and small recoil effect sway you?  Over your main attacking stat?  Over you initiative and dodge stats?  Over Logic with it's giant list of skills and it's magic defense?  Over Charisma?  I grant that the physical limit CAN be a biggie (one of my characters, a B&E/Face, did indeed have to take an advantage to raise her's), but I maintain that strength is not only far from being super important, it is one of the least important to all but melee/bow characters.  And the end result is, as you said, "assault rifle damage."  Well, what stops me from tossing down 3k nuyen and grabbing an assault rifle?
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (11:30:51/02-02-14)
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First off I apologize for getting aggressive.  Didn't mean it
Apology accepted. Don't worry about it. ;)

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With all due respect, I would say that having Magic 1 does not make you an adept, and rather succinctly proves my statement of "Adepts essentially cannot hit the bonus 4 in Strength."
Note how I build a character that has these stats at chargen. Once you are willing to wait a while for your strength to get capped, it becomes way more essence and magic friendly. I do agree that I did invest quite a lot into capping strength and unarmed damage, but making sacrifices such as a narrow skillset or low starting magic (Which I can pump back up to 3 with Karma even at chargen btw.) is not unreasonable when you want to start at the high end of anything. Frankly, capping anything shouldn't be done casually.

The thing about bows is this. First, they used to scale in scary ways. Before SR5 capped their rating, you could have a rating 15 bow for your troll and basically fire arrows equal to an assault cannon. Second, we are talking about a legal weapon that you can carry anywhere, is naturally silenced and has assault rifle range, damage and armor penetration. This is before you consider the injection arrows. This is very, very different from just picking up an assault rifle and requires less resources than melee.

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And while I'm sure others will say I'm being dumb, I think something is legitimately lost when the only way to make a kung fu adept or true warrior of the blade is to take a blow to your Essence.  That's something that never sat well with me in SR4.
No offense, you but wanna have your cake and eat it too here.
This is Shadowrun, not some sword and board fantasy game. Guns are the norm because they simply are better than melee weapons. That's why they replaced them in warfare. If you want to go retro and focus on melee (armed or unarmed) that is fine, but you have to be aware of the fact that you are handicapping yourself. Yet, you want to handicap yourself further by not taking advantage of the technological improvements that your enemies will be using, because it violates your understand of a "true" adept/ warrior.
I do see your point and I understand your desire. There is something inherently cool to the guy who brings his sword to a gunfight, but that something is in no small part the fact that he is the underdog because he brings his sword to a gunfight. All that being said, once an adept has enough Karma he actually can be that guy. But to get there, you have to be the underdog for a long time.

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Secondly, those points in strength must come from somewhere else.
Well sure, but that's the case for any build, so I don't consider that much of a problem. I do think there is no such thing as a dumpstat as my games tend to use all of them pretty regularly. As I said before, the lower a stat the more likely you are to actually roll for it, because the GM is not confident in your abilities. With my current char, I have rolled more logic tests (3) than intuition tests (5) simply because the 5 in intuition suggests that I am exceptional enough to not roll for most things. If there was a dumpstat, it probably would be something like reaction since it is so commonly augmented.. I also tend to play mages, so Charisma is kind of important to me personally. ;)

About strength double dipping, I do see your point but frankly, strength is pretty unique since it does something for everyone. There is plenty of characters that will get little use out of charisma or agility or even body (with enough armor, the value of body diminishes). The physical limit is the one that every character ever will utilize at some point because none can sneak or jump or run for you. You can get around a lot of it, but eventually your bag of tricks will run empty and then you'll need it. Every character will eventually fire a gun and worry about recoil and there is strength to help you. And the only ones that don't are the melee chars that need it anyway. Finally, every character will need the carrying capacity and that one has a tendency to be real important in really inconvenient situations. (Yeah, Johnny is unconscious, we can either drag him or the loot, damn why didn't you raise strength man?)

On top of that, melee damage needs to be measured on the people that build for it, because if it's not, it becomes way too powerful quickly. An average troll or an exceptional dwarf/ ork rivals Sniper Rifles in damage when wielding a combat axe. That is scary... .
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ZeConster on (15:30:30/02-02-14)
The thing about bows is this. First, they used to scale in scary ways. Before SR5 capped their rating, you could have a rating 15 bow for your troll and basically fire arrows equal to an assault cannon.
SR4A already stealth-errata'd them so they'd only go up to 8, actually.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (00:12:11/02-03-14)
I guess I don't really see a problem with a troll or a strong ork or dwarf pulling out a bow that has the range of an assault rifle, takes a complex action to load and fire, does the damage of a sniper rifle and is naturally silenced. That seems actually pretty balanced - no burst fire, a lot of action to load and fire, range is comparable to a weapon that is only slightly less in damage, and suppressors are available to equalize noise. Sure, it's legal, and the ARs and SRs are at least restricted, and often forbidden. Mr Bow guy also invested a lot more to get that damage. Rifle guy... probably not so much.

As an example, a remington has a 4R rating (better than an equivalent damage bow), hits for 12P (equivalent to a very powerful bow, best a starting character can get), has better AP, way better range, and costs about 2.5 times as much (counting a cheap fake). It also gets a magazine that holds 5, better than a crossbow.

I'm not sure I understand how on one hand the sword guy is an underdog for a long time because guns are just better and on the other hand, he's somehow so potent as to be way to powerful too quickly. That seems like a direct contradiction.

It is important to note that the system doesn't use Ballistic and Impact armor anymore, and AP ratings of melee and projectile weapons are well within range of the firearms. Trollbows have been a thing for a long time, but I suspect they are a novelty, rather than a big scary thing. Certainly no more than a troll with an assault cannon.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (10:36:59/02-04-14)
Note how I build a character that has these stats at chargen. Once you are willing to wait a while for your strength to get capped, it becomes way more essence and magic friendly. I do agree that I did invest quite a lot into capping strength and unarmed damage, but making sacrifices such as a narrow skillset or low starting magic (Which I can pump back up to 3 with Karma even at chargen btw.) is not unreasonable when you want to start at the high end of anything. Frankly, capping anything shouldn't be done casually.

Unfortunately, it IS done very casually for most other things.  To continue to example: to be good at a gun?  I need agility and a gun.  That's not a lot of sacrificing to be made!

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The thing about bows is this. First, they used to scale in scary ways. Before SR5 capped their rating, you could have a rating 15 bow for your troll and basically fire arrows equal to an assault cannon. Second, we are talking about a legal weapon that you can carry anywhere, is naturally silenced and has assault rifle range, damage and armor penetration. This is before you consider the injection arrows. This is very, very different from just picking up an assault rifle and requires less resources than melee.

Well, the discussion is SR5, so I'll stay there  ;).  Honestly, the problem remains that you're spending an incredible amount of resources into this.  And injection arrows?  With the points spent on strength, you could easily pack up Dart Rifles.

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No offense, you but wanna have your cake and eat it too here.
This is Shadowrun, not some sword and board fantasy game. Guns are the norm because they simply are better than melee weapons. That's why they replaced them in warfare. If you want to go retro and focus on melee (armed or unarmed) that is fine, but you have to be aware of the fact that you are handicapping yourself. Yet, you want to handicap yourself further by not taking advantage of the technological improvements that your enemies will be using, because it violates your understand of a "true" adept/ warrior.
I do see your point and I understand your desire. There is something inherently cool to the guy who brings his sword to a gunfight, but that something is in no small part the fact that he is the underdog because he brings his sword to a gunfight. All that being said, once an adept has enough Karma he actually can be that guy. But to get there, you have to be the underdog for a long time.

I see this argument from time to time, and I wonder what Shadowrun people are reading, because Shadowrun is the game where "physical adept" and "cyber samurai" are explicitly stated archtypes.  If the game at no point even pretended that melee should be equal, that'd be fine - Eclipse Phase at no point pretends that you should ever use anything but a gun.  But Shadowrun doesn't do that - it very explicitly does the opposite!  Using a sword is very, very openly stated to be a thing you are meant to do for certain archtypes.  Then punishing those archtypes for BEING those archtypes doesn't add up.  At best it's poor game design: the fluff says one thing, the mechanics say another.  At worst the game is intentionally lying to you, setting up these archtypes and then laughing at you for taking them.  I'm going to be optimistic and feel it's the former: that cyber samurai following the neo-code of neo-bushido, or mystic warriors empowered by magic coursing into their body, or slightly crazed, thrill-loving razorbois, are intended to be archtypes just as equally up there as the gunbunny or hardened mercenary.  I'm ok with swords being terrible for the uninitiated while guns can be used by any ol' schmo.  The problem is when experts in the sword are still falling behind the schmo.

This is, I think, the heart of a lot of melee arguments.  Should melee always be worse then guns?  If so, the game shouldn't pretend otherwise!  And right now they do!  But if melee is not intended to be literally "Guns, but far worse, don't do it ever," then the mechanics are not doing that great of a job of supporting it.  The game sorta needs to choose which, and fix that problem.  Bows are sort of the side connection to this.

Personally?  I think strength based attacks are vaguely fine for cybered characters, but terrible for non-cybered, which seems backwards.  Personally, I'd love to see adepts get some sort of power that gives them a boost when using non-"advanced" weapons (so throwing knives, swords, non-stun clubs, and bows).  I feel that'd be both fitting to the fluff, optional for those that don't want it, and good at giving that boost to the characters that need it, while fitting in rather seemlessly and not needing to to revamp the rules.

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On top of that, melee damage needs to be measured on the people that build for it, because if it's not, it becomes way too powerful quickly. An average troll or an exceptional dwarf/ ork rivals Sniper Rifles in damage when wielding a combat axe. That is scary... .

It sounds like sniper rifles are the scary thing, not the axe.  I can SEE the guy with the axe!
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (18:47:08/02-04-14)
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Unfortunately, it IS done very casually for most other things.  To continue to example: to be good at a gun?  I need agility and a gun.  That's not a lot of sacrificing to be made!
That's not capping. Capping means to max out. You need quite a bit more than just agility and a gun to cap out. Including either magic or 'ware. I'd also like to point out that a crossbow achieves everything a bow does without the strength requirements.

As for SR5 vs SR4, I merely mentioned that to make clear that this fact likely influenced design decisions being made. ;) That's for pointing it out ZeCoster, I must have missed that change.

The major difference between dart weapons and injection arrows is that injection arrows deliver their toxin in addition to their normal arrow damage, not instead of it. Bows/ Crossbows are unique in that.

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I see this argument from time to time [...]
PhysAds means magically enhanced. Street Samurai means a person with a code. There is no implication of melee here and there never was. The greates incarnation of the Street Samurai, Ghost Who Walks Inside is never once described to use a melee weapon except when threatening someone with his hand razors. In fact, the only commonly known samurai (that comes to mind right now) with a penchant for melee is hatchetman. And he rarely used melee, he's just known for carrying the weapon. The "melee character" in the SR5 intro story is a heavily cybered ork samurai who utilizes an assault rifle, grenades and a sword, each when the situation calls for it. All the others do their best to stay out of melee because they aren't fit for it.

That being said, you are right that there are certain stereotypes of melee focused archetypes. The thing is, those archetypes are always either heavily augmented to support their melee, very powerful adepts (usually with weapon foci), Mary Sue uber NPCs or metas that lends itself to melee builds (and sometimes a combination). The game isn't lying to you nor are the designers designing badly. You are taking a highly focused archetype, trying to apply to your template of cool without paying the price for it and then complaining it doesn't work. (No offense intended)

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This is, I think, the heart of a lot of melee arguments.  Should melee always be worse then guns?
Always? No. At the baseline? Hell yes.
Once again, firearms were invented to replace melee. If they are equal at the baseline, there is no reason for them to exist except for personal preference.
The difference between melee and guns (beyond the obvious range) is legality, availability and scaling. There isn't a single legal gun, but a combat knife is legal to own an carry. That one ranges from 3P/-3 in the hands of a couch potato human to 16P/-3 in the hands of an augmented troll. The combat knife you can get pretty much everywhere. To get an equal damage in a gun you have to go through steps anywhere from walking into a store with a fake sin on the low end (hold-out) to finding a proper mility connection (assault cannons and the like).

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Personally, I'd love to see adepts get some sort of power that gives them a boost when using non-"advanced" weapons (so throwing knives, swords, non-stun clubs, and bows).  I feel that'd be both fitting to the fluff, optional for those that don't want it, and good at giving that boost to the characters that need it, while fitting in rather seemlessly and not needing to to revamp the rules.
That actually used to be the case. In SR1 to 3 adept powers that enhanced archaic weapons were cheaper. This lead to one thing: every character focussed on these weapons was an adept.
Adepts had and still have powers that improve their use of weaponry in ways no other character can (Critical Strike for example).

I'll say it again. You are attempting to impress your template of cool on the Shadowrun setting. Shadowrun is about a world in which magic and technology merge. The fact that the combination of the two is more powerful than either one on it's own is the basic premise of the game. Look at it from inside the game world. A runner has the option to gain an edge but refuses. When he goes on his next run and realizes he is now worse off, does he hold the world responsible for turning or himself for not taking the edge when he could have?
As always, Its fine to change this at your home table, but that is your home table.

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It sounds like sniper rifles are the scary thing, not the axe.  I can SEE the guy with the axe!
True and they are supposed to be. But when a guy with an axe has a decent chance to go toe to toe with a tank it's kinda hard to claim that meele is weak isn't it?
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Namikaze on (19:01:25/02-04-14)
There is absolutely nothing that states that a Physical Adept has to be any of the following stereotypes that were presented:

a) Deadly
b) Melee-ranged
c) Combat-oriented

There are Physical Adepts that focus on social skills and manipulation - the so-called "Social Adepts."  There are Physical Adepts that focus on driving and performing athletic feats of amazing skill - the so-called "Athlete Adepts."  Then there's my personal favorites - the gunslinger adepts.  These focus on using high-tech weapons like...  *gasp* guns!

As Beaumis pointed out, Physical Adepts are simply magic users who have some nifty powers.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (07:21:38/02-06-14)
I'm sorry, the dude telling me "NO, you aren't allowed to make your character, only Mary Sue NPCs can be melee characters, you MUST use a gun" in a setting where one augment is literally "Wolverine Claws" is telling me I'm trying to force my rule of cool on the game?

All your arguments - ALL of them - boil down to "I don't want melee to be good."  You yourself openly state that adepts in SR3 were pointed towards bows and swords, and yet you're also trying to simultaniously claim that the game never tried to pretend those were viable options?

And sorry, but if scores of NPCs are dudes who primarily use bows or swords, the game is telling you to go for it.  If it were the case that swords should never be used, you wouldn't see them.  At all.  Hell, you absolutely wouldn't have a big ol' list of them.  There wouldn't be.  But there are a bunch of NPCs that exist for you to go "Oh that's cool" and emulate.  And there are lists of melee weapons.  And there is fluff about cyber samurai totally using swords.  And there is fluff about adepts using weapon foci blades.  For crying out loud, the game has katanas and trenchcoats, and you're saying melee was totally never intended to be supported?

If a game has rules and fluff supporting an archtype, then that archtype should be supported.  If the archtype is insufficiently supported then there is a problem.  Either the fluff and rules should be changed to no longer pretend the archtype is meant to be applicable, or the archtype should be brought up to par.  Again, this is an easy fix, as the guys who have the most problem with melee and bows are adepts, and a new power in the MAGIC, YO book can fix that.  I mean, you claim the book doesn't support melee, and yet one character is devoted entirely, to and only to, melee attacks.  And it's the adept!  Come on, now!

If you have an argument outside of "I want strength characters to always be worse because reasons" then by all means, but all I'm hearing from you, over and over again, really just boils down to "I want strength characters to always be worse because reasons."

And yes, "realism" in this case boils down to "reasons."  If you can accept dragons and decking and magic and metahumans and technomancers and riggers and kinda iffy Native American stereotypes and, yes, super future guns including "literally the Robocop pistol," then "melee is good" is realistic.  Objectively so.  Yep.  Don't even!  Objectively realistic given the rest of the setting which, again, I should note, includes "Literally wolverine claws."  I'm using "literally" a lot here because I'm using it correctly!  Shadowrun has always been a bizarre blender of pop culture, starting from it's first book.  Wolverine claws, mohawks, the robocop gun- and speaking of which, let's be honest, even the Shadowrun cyborg may as well be renamed Alex Murphy - trenchcoats and katanas, even the "classic Runner gun" is an uzi.

Also, I'm fairly sure Social Adepts are a very new thing - like, SR4 new.  They were Physical Adepts previously - note the "physical."  Pre-SR4, they were pretty much all kung fu warriors.  SR4 expanded that into other categories, but was never meant to get rid of the option of being the cool mystic kung fu warrior.  Once again, one of the two adepts in the given examples is explicitly a mystic kung fu warrior.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:26:43/02-06-14)
Don't most gun fights take place at a distance of 7m or less? Often, when they can fire at you, you can charge them.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Namikaze on (09:51:58/02-06-14)
*rant snip*

I'm not sure that anyone is trying to say "melee is bad."  The point that I got from this whole twisted argument discussion was that melee is an option, but it doesn't have to be the same as firearms.  Firearms are cheap and effective, that's the reality of the situation.  That's the primary reason that firearms replaced melee combat in warfare - an army could hand a rifle to a farmer and make him as lethal as a swordsman with years of expertise.

The actual physics of firearms aren't necessarily always better than melee weapons.  It's obvious to anyone that's worked in an ER that melee wounds are usually way nastier than bullets.  In fact, most bullet wounds kill not via the bullet, but by the shock and sepsis that the bullet cause.  Melee wounds, particularly those that break things, are just awful.  There's less risk of sepsis in some cases, but the general destruction of organs and tissue is just awful.

But to the topic of why melee has to work so hard to be good: it's because firearms are simple.  The gun handles the physics, and the gun is operated via an easy-to-use mechanism.  Someone can cause a lot of destruction with a gun with very few requirements on the person's skill, strength, etc.  Swords and clubs require more skill to use effectively (unless you're just beating someone on the ground), and use your body to leverage the physics which puts a requirement of having good physical attributes into the equation.  If you want to use swords, monofilament whips, etc. it's reasonable to expect that you will need higher stats than some gangbanger with a pistol.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (10:51:48/02-06-14)
The problem is that melee (and bows, to keep it relevant!) require an incredibly higher amount of resources, some of which are only available through 'ware, in order to equate to guns.  Melee (and bows!) will simply always suck in comparison.

And I don't think that is intentional.  And if it IS intentional, then it should be labeled as such.

Again - I'm ok with guns being better then other options for the guys with a handful of skill points and not much else; your decker with a cyberarm, if you want, will always gravitate towards a pistol.  But for an actual full on combat guy, if you put more resources into melee/bows, it should be better - you've paid more for it, after all!  The secondary problem is that I feel adepts should absolutely have some form of encouragement to go for "non-gun" weapons.  Not encouragement to do it over guns, because there's already enough encouragement to go guns, but it should be a viable option alongside the gunslinger.

Edit: To put it another way, a viable option is not one that states "Use extraordinarily more resources in order to be almost as good."
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Namikaze on (11:52:01/02-06-14)
Edit: To put it another way, a viable option is not one that states "Use extraordinarily more resources in order to be almost as good."

I think from a game design perspective, I would agree with you.  However, I'm not convinced that this is the situation in Shadowrun.  Sure, you can get guns to do more damage and even have more armor penetration - but for your normal content having 20 dice, -7 AP, and 13P damage is hardly necessary.  That's what I would call an extraordinary amount of power for a player to have.

Here's what I'm hoping for: a way to make non-tech weapons have a higher accuracy and more AP.  I think the fact that armor moved from Ballistic and Impact to all one pool kind of screwed melee weapons in particular.  To compensate, I hope that non firearms get some nifty upgrades in Run & Gun that can allow them to have more AP.  Also it'd be nice to be able to increase the accuracy of melee weapons to 7s or higher with upgrades.  These two changes would allow for melee and bow combatants to get rewarded for having very high dice pools.  Also, a chainsaw sword (ala Gear of War) would be pretty pimpin.

Another thing I'm hoping for with Run & Gun: non-ballistic projectile weapons.  AKA: lasers!
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (11:58:13/02-06-14)
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I'm sorry, the dude telling me "NO, [...}
There we go with the hostility again.
I never ONCE said you should not go melee. I never once said melee should be bad. I freakin like melee. I said melee has a cost, it is right for melee to have that cost and you are exaggerating the cost in my eyes because you are using a loaded example.

Basically what Namikaze said. Melee is there, it's a fine option, it even has a few major advantages. (There is no cover vs. melee, the majority of NPCs is not trained for it, it scales with strength to a point beyond any other concealable weapon, its cheap etc.) But there is a reason why it is not the SOP anymore and that reason does boil down to "because future setting" in a way. Ranged combat has the inherent advantage of being ranged. Bullets have the inherent advantage of being independent of their firer's physical attributes because chemistry and physics. Its what guns do and how they work. It is not bad game design to build a realistic setting that reflects the strength and weaknesses of the concepts contain therein.

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The problem is that melee (and bows, to keep it relevant!) require an incredibly higher amount of resources, some of which are only available through 'ware, in order to equate to guns.  Melee (and bows!) will simply always suck in comparison.
That is plain and simply not true. Strength based weaponry requires *one* additional attribute over non-strength based weaponry. Everything you could possibly do with any weapon focused character requires agility, a weapon and an appropriate skill. Since all those are given for a comparison, only strength remains and you already need some of that for recoil purposes and to stand up.
Bows stop scaling before guns do, that is true. But melee scales beyond any gun in game right now when taken to the extreme. (Str 14 troll with combat axe = 19P) A troll with a combat knife is equal to a friggin assault cannon when build for it. That is a few galaxies removed from your claim.

The cost becomes *much* higher when you decide to be an adept on top of focusing on strength based weaponry, true. But that is because you decide to mix two high maintenance concepts. If you try to insert strength based weaponry into a standart run of the mil street sam, all you need is a little more strength that you would normally buy and the appropriate skill and you're good to go.
The cost are highest when you want to play a human (or elven) adept that focuses on strength based weapon. That's not because melee is bad or the cost unbalanced. Its because that is a concept that combines two high maintenance archetypes with the least suitable race for what it tries to do.

As an alternative example: Building a troll mage is perfectly possible, but he will never be equal to an elf or a dwarf or even a human in astral space given equal resource investments. And that is, plain and simply, because trolls are less suited to be powerful astral mages than other races are.

Back on topic: At the end of the day, there are probably lots of reasons to explain it away, but the real question is: "is it fun to get a strength boost via drugs/ magic/ etc. and then having to say: Darn, I wish I had a second bow so I could take advantage of it".
Bow rating and strength rules really exist to provide a maximum,reflect that prices/availability rise with pull and to ensure that a strength 2 char doesn't use a rating 8 bow.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (12:32:51/02-06-14)
"It's just one stat" is meaningless when there's only eight stats.  That's a very large chunk of resources to raise in chargen, and then another large chunk to hit max outside of chargen - it's literally double the resources required for a gun.  Double.  And yet melee or bows are not twice as powerful, they are in fact less powerful.

Look at your own example.  A troll (Troll A or B) with maxed strength (Attributes A or B) with maxed out bonus strength (unavailable in chargen, but requires at the least C to soft cap).  You've already spent your top three priorities.  And what do you get?  The same damage anyone at all could reach with a single gun.  Only that dude would have better accuracy and better attack rating, because guns can have smartlinks.

There is no reason at all that "I am super good with a gun" and "I am super good with a sword/bow" should have such a disparity.  Why is the former low maintenance and the latter high maintenance?  Sure - "I'm decent with a gun" and "I'm decent with a sword/bow."  The gun should have the edge.  As I've said in, like, every post I've made.  But if you're mastering the weapon, why is melee just inherently crappier?  Especially since older editions not only allowed, but indeed rewarded you for making an adept swordguy.  Why is that now suddenly an impossibility?

And no, realism is not an answer.  Once more: If you want that sort of realism, grab Eclipse Phase.  Grab Cyberpunk 2020.  Grab any number of other games.  Shadowrun had a dragon become US president only to blow up to stop evil monsters from another dimension.  We left realism a long time ago.  Chicago was nuked magically to stop evil giant ghost-alien bugs from attacking.  That is a thing.  That has occurred.  If you frankly have no problem with dragons, magic (two flavors!), techno-magic, weird 80's hacking and VR, constant pop culture references that don't even connect anymore, non-human magical races, bizarre and impossible politics, and weirdly iffy racial stereotypes...but swords are good breaks your realism?  That's not a problem with the game!  In the current SR5 game I'm in, my decker used his brain computer to literally plug into a wall and enter THE VIRTUAL WORLD.  And yet nobody seems to find that problematic or unrealistic.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (15:59:31/02-06-14)
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And no, realism is not an answer.  Once more: If you want that sort of realism, grab Eclipse Phase.  Grab Cyberpunk 2020.  Grab any number of other games.  Shadowrun had a dragon become US president only to blow up to stop evil monsters from another dimension.  We left realism a long time ago. [...]
There is a vast difference between adopting scifi/fantasy elements into your world and abandoning realism on everything just because. Sorry, but that point doesn't fly.

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Especially since older editions not only allowed, but indeed rewarded you for making an adept swordguy.  Why is that now suddenly an impossibility?
Did you play older editions? Up to 3rd Melee combat was so friggin unbalanced it wasn't even funny anymore. Think an opposed test where the winner causes damage, regardless of who attacked, with your net hits scaling your damage. Oh, and for bows and unarmed, 2 net hits were +3 DV, 4 Net hits were +6 DV. Also, Hits weren't just fives and sixes, but 4 +/- [your reach - enemy reach]. If I had an axe and you had your fist, my TN was 2 and yours was 6. It became slightly better in 3rd when the formula changed to 4 - your reach.
Adepts were melee machines not really because they supported melee well (and god they did), but because melee was so broken and adept powers + weapon foci equaled more melee dice than everyone else. Just to drive this point home: if you were good enough in melee, all you had to do was engage your enemy, because doing so either gave him so many negative modifiers that he was basically ineffectual or turned his initiative pass into your attack.
Bows were virtually unchanged until 20th anniversary edition. This means they were always legal assault cannons if you had the right strength. In short, you were rewarded with an IWIN button. That was bad game design.

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"It's just one stat" is meaningless when there's only eight stats.  That's a very large chunk of resources to raise in chargen, and then another large chunk to hit max outside of chargen - it's literally double the resources required for a gun.  Double.
First, It used to be one of six in previous editions. And its not double, you are neglecting part of the cost. To work a gun you need:
1. Agility
2. Skill

To work a  bow you need:
1. Agility
2. Skill
3. Strength

That's 50% more, not 100%. And that's only true if you are generous enough to assume that the gun build would have zero Strength. All other things apply equally to both, except the famed injection arrows.

You also treat priorities as if they only gave you *just* what you needed. That is not true. Attributes E provides enough points to have max strength and agility on any character. It certainly won't be a well rounded character, and a less rounded one than if you only maxed agility, but it is possible. Every priority higher than E is bonus points for branching out while keeping your main focus capped in terms of natural attributes.

I'd like to point out that so far we have talked about capping strength, but it really isn't necessary. All you need is strength 8 to max the bow damage and have very decent melee damage (10P and 11P for bow and sword, both equal to assault rifles). For dwarves and orks that means you need 6 attribute points in strength and you're done forever. For trolls you only need 4 attribute points. Compared to being "average" that is 3 or 1 point more and not a single nuyen has to be spend. For humans and elves it requires magic or augmentations.

Long story short, the disparity simply isn't as big as you make it out to be. If a character decides that light pistols are cooler than assault rifles, he has to face the fact that light pistols are inherently less powerful than assault rifles. The difference is at the most extreme 6P/0 vs 12P/-2. A character that decides heavy pistols are his thing, which is rather common, he is capped to 9P at best. Still a full three points less than the assault rifle. However, unlike the character that focuses on strength based weapon, his choice is permanent, as there will never be a pistol equal to an assault rifle.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (17:10:16/02-06-14)
Point of Fact - the original question was asked in the context of 5e. I don't know if I stated that or not. Other editions are less of a concern of mine personally. They don't appear to be strength limited in 5e.

I fear we are going quite far afield of the original question at this point. The point was rather to address the issue of Attribute Boost which I erroneously believed affected damage.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (18:36:08/02-06-14)
If you frankly have no problem with dragons, magic (two flavors!), techno-magic, weird 80's hacking and VR, constant pop culture references that don't even connect anymore, non-human magical races, bizarre and impossible politics, and weirdly iffy racial stereotypes...but swords are good breaks your realism?  That's not a problem with the game!  In the current SR5 game I'm in, my decker used his brain computer to literally plug into a wall and enter THE VIRTUAL WORLD.  And yet nobody seems to find that problematic or unrealistic.

Looks like it's time to start quoting myself!

The original claim that started all this was that strength was so easy to raise that bows needed to be weaker then guns.  When this was proven false, it was moved to bows needing to be weaker because of "realism."  Now that this is debunked, I await the new argument.  If the new argument is "It's ok, just have literally a 1 in all your other stats," can we just agree that is far beyond "not well rounded" and lies right in the middle of "functionally unplayable" and move on?

I mean hey - maybe the devs messed up.  They're human.  Come on, SR5 has had far more mistakes then just this.  My point stands: if non-gun weapon options are intended to be inherently weaker at all points, they should be labeled as such, be it outright in the mechanics section or in the fluff, rather then presented as viable when they aren't.  If they are not intended to be inherently weaker at all points, they need to be boosted in some way.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (19:55:27/02-06-14)
@Raleel: My personal view is that the original question was answered sufficiently and that the threat has evolved into a neighboring discussion. If you feel differently, I apologize and will take this somewhere else.
 
@ProfessorCirno: I don't know where you're getting this from. I never said bows needed to be weaker. I actually said that strength based weaponry is quite powerful and that it doesn't need additional help. [This is contained in my first post].
The fact that strength enhancement are so relatively easy to get was part of my reasoning for this. [This is in my second post]
I did point out that bows used to be a lot stronger and that this fact might have influenced the designer's decisions regarding their current power. [This is contained in my 5th post.]

Throughout the threat you claimed that strength based weaponry was both too weak and too expensive resource wise compared to guns. I disagreed with that assessment and explained to you why.

Repeating your statement does not make it stronger. Abandoning all realism is not a necessary or even reasonable consequence of introducing fictional elements. Every James Bond movie ever made contains fictional fantasy elements (Underwater Villain Hideout in 1977... .). This did not stop the movies from trying to be realistic in their portrayal of guns. You yourself have quoted Cyberpunk 2020 as a "realistic" setting, yet it is a setting that includes the option to condense your brain and vital organs into a box to be inserted into various cyborg bodies like a freaking VHS tape into a player, but still tries to keep their gun physics straight.

The priority system consists of five priorities, each of which is to be used once. That means that every character build with the priority system, by the definition of of the shadowrun 5 chargen system, is functionally playable no matter which section priority E is assigned to. There will certainly be stronger and more well rounded characters, but just because they do not meet your standards doesn't mean they are functionally unplayable. Also note that attributes E is not the only way to build a troll adept, nor is it necessary to fulfill the requirements of the concepts we are discussing here.

[spoiler]
Try A/B/C/D/E -> Race/ Attributes/ Skills/ Magic/ Resources. 20 Attribute Points, 28/2 Skillspoints, 7 points to be distributed between magic and edge. Spend 10 Karma on Money and you'll have sufficient for decent starting gear. This is a perfectly viable character that lacks nothing and is only behind the assault rifle until he can buy the rating 8 bow, which is the second he walks out of chargen because the thing is cheap and legal.

Magic 6: Attribute Boost Agility 1, Critical Strike Bows, Improved Ability Archery 3, Improved Reflexes 2, Combat Sense 1, Improved Attribute Agility 1

Archery (Bows) 6 (9) +2 + Agility 6 (7) = 18 Dice. Attribute boost gives 2 extra dice on average, so 20 Dice.

Rating 8 Bow with a smartlink, 17 dice with limit of 8 and a damage of 11P/-2. The only downside is you spend a simple action to ready another arrow. On the upside, you get to pump your enemies full of sweet little toxins like Narcoject for free.

And without investing anything other than 7 skillpoints, you get Blades (Knife) 6 +2 + Agility 6 (7) = 15 (17 attribute boost) with accuracy 7 and 11P/-2 Sword for melee.

This is a simple character that doesn't do anything special other than build on its strength's. (Yeah, sorry,) You can do the same (losing one agility die) with a dwarf or an ork, trading more edge for a few attribute points.[/spoiler]

You continue to claim that non-gun weapons are inherently weaker, but so far you have not supplied one shred of evidence to this claim except for "reasons". I have given you numerous examples of how a player can capitalize on his strength, how crossbows don't need strength, how a strength 8 character, which is reasonably easy to reach is sufficient to make all non strength weapons equal to assault rifles and how higher strength characters can take their melee attacks up to assault cannon damage. Yet, you still demand for "non-gun weapons" to be labeled as inherently weaker. because you think they are.

I'll gladly agree to disagree, but I am genuinely curious as to what actually backs up your claim. So far, all you have come up with is that you need, allegedly, inordinate amounts of resources to accomplish equal damage. Given my troll example posted above, I once again, respectfully disagree.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (20:11:07/02-06-14)
I have supplied ample proof: namely, you require more resources for melee then guns in order to reach a lesser level.

Again, you yourself admit: your sample character can simply do nothing but shoot their bow or stab with their knife.  They will have low dodge and armor compared to other combat characters.  High strength has to come from somewhere.  I'm going to use the AK-97, the most standardized workhorse assault rifle, for the comparison

What you need to deal 10P with a gun: An ArK-97, high agility, high gun skill.  Accuracy 7 w/smartlink
What you need to deal 10P with a bow: A bow, high agility, high bow skill, 8 Strength.  Accuracy 8 w/smartlink
What you need to deal 10P with a katana: A katana, high agility, high blades skill, 7 Strength  Accuracy 7
What you need to deal 10P with a combat axe: An axe, high agility, high blades skill, 5 strength!  ...Accuracy 4

Do you not see how the need for 8/7/5 strength in order to do comparable damage - as a complex action, not a swift, mind you - is going to ensure blades cannot keep up?  Because the guy with the bow is going to have higher initiative/dodge.  Or higher physical soak and more hit boxes.  Or more stun boxes and higher spell defense.  Or simply better at doing things outside of HIT MAN.  And with the variety of things guns do, you pay more to get less.  You'll note I didn't add in there that the AK-97 can strip away 11 dice from an enemy's defense pool, or that it can fire as a standard.  Take your bow example: you can't cast Agility Boost and attack in the same turn, only the guy with the gun can.

And your complaint for realism is unfounded.  If you can handle all the things I mentioned, but you cannot handle "swords aren't terrible," then the problem is not with the game.  "Swords are good" is not stripping away or "abandoning all realism."  That's your personal taste.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (20:15:35/02-06-14)
Let me put a nail in this coffin.  Here are a list of things that are realistic in the future:

Dragons
A dragon president
A dragon president who killed himself to stop evil space monsters from another dimension
Actual wizards
Mystic kung fu warriors
Enhanced future katanas
Enhanced future trenchcoats
Literally the robocop gun
"Cyborgs" that are in fact just plain Alex Murphy
Wolverine claw augmentations
Internet wizards
Mohawks
The console cowboys of cyberspace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLlj_GeKniA)
The MYSTIC REALMS OF THE ASTRAL PLAAAAAAAAAAAAANE
Evil alien-ghost bugs
Really iffy racial stereotypes
The VIRTUAL WORLD
Megacorps that took over government rather then just buy it
Imperial Japan taking over the world with it's elite samurai warriors and totally never going to fail business sense
Metahumans
Literal vampire wizards
Cyber ninjas with enhanced cyberlegs jumps across buildings in order to fight said vampire wizards
Ancient elven conspiracies

Here are a list of things that are not realistic:

Swords and guns are roughly equal options to combat specialists



...Do you not see how this is really silly?
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Namikaze on (00:21:38/02-07-14)
I see how this whole argument is really silly.  We've established the logical reason why guns replaced swords and bows.  We've also seen that there are advantages to bows that are otherwise not specified simply by looking at damage (ability to deliver toxins, natural silence, legality, etc.).  And at some point we have also established that the future of Shadowrun is a weird place (not completely sure what this proves, tbh).  Do we really need to keep bantering back and forth over an issue that neither of you guys is going to agree about?
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (05:09:54/02-07-14)
Apparently so if that's all you've taken from this.

What we've also established is that Shadowrun the game implicitly pushes combat characters who don't use guns as a viable archtype while mechanically falling flat on it.  What we've also established is that there's no logical or "realistic" reason for non-gun options to mechanically always be worse then gun options.

Also all those bow advantages also apply to guns, come on now.  Natural silence?  You're going to go with "well what if they never buy a silencer?"
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Beaumis on (06:34:00/02-07-14)
Quote
I have supplied ample proof: namely, you require more resources for melee then guns in order to reach a lesser level.
No, you have repeated the premise. None has ever disputed that there is a resource difference. None. Your claim however was that this difference is too large. You have failed to provide a single proof for that.

In fact, you have just claimed that a character with B in attributes and C in skills, that has invested 4 attribute points in strength and 14 in two combat skills, is unable to "do nothing but shoot their bow or stab with their knife", despite the fact that there are 12 attribute points left for 6 attributes (which means average in everything and exceptional in body) and 16/2 skillpoints left. That character spend three attribute points in strength (Trolls start at 5, he has 8.). That is one point more than the average character spends on strength. One fraggin point. At the most his dodge, which is no longer a skill, is going to be one die less. His armor will be unchanged because armor no longer relies on body and if it did, he is a troll. His body is higher than most (6+ at minimum).

Instead of calmly discussing what exactly makes this particular character so narrow in your opinion, you would rather write up a long list of shadowrun's fantasy elements, that none has ever disputed, in order to prove that their inclusion should automatically mean that realism goes out the window. You are committing a deductive fallacy. One element of unrealism does not dictate that all elements should be unrealistic. You can list elements all day and not escape that fact.

Quite frankly, I agree with Namikaze. This is going nowhere and the tone is deteriorating rapidly. I'm going to consider this a case of agree to disagree. Good day to you.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: samoth on (06:41:10/02-07-14)
If "delivering toxins" is your whole reason for using bows, you are aware that crossbows can do that as well and not require a large strength investment.  Even better, the Exotic Skill: Narcoject pistol can do it much easier with a highly concealable weapon, and also requires a very niche weapon skill.

Your argument that any character can be strong in melee or with a bow is just not accurate.  "Putting 50% of your starting resources/magic power" into one attribute doesn't make for a well-rounded character (if that's what you want to play feel free, but pigeon holing into a super niche special skill isn't probably a great idea when Archery affects, what, 4 items in the game and nothing else?)  Yes, the base damage of the arrow is added to the toxin code which is a valid reason to use Archery, but at the same time you'd probably be better off just chucking a grenade or using Full Auto with SnS ammo because your enemy will be dead/knocked out either way and by using a far more versatile skill.

As for melee, the fact is that unless you are naturally doing more than 8P you are better off packing a Shock Glove and calling it a day.  Hyper-focusing on getting a high strength skill to use melee can be pretty counter-productive for non-Trolls.  It's also important to note that the rules for firing a gun in melee aren't too prohibitive so even if your murdertroll closes the distance his opponent can probably still aim and fire.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: raleel on (11:25:57/02-07-14)
Points of fact -

Previous editions did change the concealability. They might have also had subsonic rounds, but my knowledge of previous editions is not good, and I do not have my books in front of me.

The dart pistol mentioned has heavy pistol range, and there is a dart rifle with sporting rifle range. This is in 5e.

My personal thought on the silencer for guns is that it either needs to do threshold modification (+1) OR dice pool removal (-4) and really it should probably be doing just threshold modification. In the current state of affairs, you can end up removing all dice and making it impossible to hear a gun, while you could potentially hear the bow, and that just doesn't seem right :)

I suppose it really depends on how simulationist you want to be. For me, the extra cost for going bow is more of a style statement, and that's fine, but I feel like that logically there should be a reason to use a bow past "legality". Being highly silenced is a good choice. Yes, you have silencers for guns, but they just aren't ever going to match up with a bow. Then it has a niche. It requires investment to be really useful, etc, but it is useful.

These edition changes. they made a big impact on bows and the verisimilitude in the system.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: Mithlas on (12:17:35/02-07-14)
[EDIT: removed mistaken note on dart pistol]

I think whether you're talking about melee or bows, unless you are a troll or hyperfocused strength character you're likely reliant on skill to cause the most injury, whereas if you are using a gun you are likely relying on the weapon to cause most of the damage (unless you're hyperfocused on agility...or skill). As for the rest of the argument...I think that it's strayed too far from Bows, so this might be best put into one of those seasonal "are guns better than everything else" threads.

What do I personally think? I think that bows do not and should not be able to stand on equal footing with assault cannons unless you hyperfocus (and even then I would have qualms about it), the purpose of bows and melee is that you have other utility besides just the DV - although I could see more arguments for melee revolving around its need to get the hurt out so you can stop taking it.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: JackVII on (12:20:43/02-07-14)
the Exotic Skill: Narcoject pistol can do it much easier with a highly concealable weapon, and also requires a very niche weapon skill.
I looked through all the books I have in 4E, and in SR5, and neither claim that you use Exotic Weapon instead of Pistols (or Rifles for the parashield rifle). No need to invest in an exotic skill there.
In the SR5 BBB, you must have missed the only sentence under the Special Weapons category in the Street Gear section.
Title: Re: Adjustable strength bows
Post by: samoth on (12:26:04/02-07-14)
It's incredibly stupid that you have to use an Exotic Skill (and actually two different exotic skills if you want the dart pistol and rifle!)  Why they don't fall under Pistols and Longarms is anyone's guess since they function identically to regular guns.  It probably won't matter when Run N Gun is released and gel capsule rounds are reintroduced anyway but for now it's just another in a long line of head scratchers.