Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Previous Editions => Topic started by: SoulGambit on (20:33:27/08-28-13)

Title: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: SoulGambit on (20:33:27/08-28-13)
We all love the Shadowrun setting and adore the Shadowrun game, but not every rule is appropriate for every table. What if you want your game to be more Pink Mowhawk, or more Intrigue? What if you want grenades to be less lethal--or more? How do you tweak the game to suit the needs of you and your players?

Post it here, we want to know.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: SoulGambit on (20:36:02/08-28-13)
I want to start by saying that I love the setting and mystique of Shadowrun. Its probably one of the best, if not the best renditions of the cyberpunk genre out there. That said, I've played several sessions of Shadowrun 5e and at every turn it feels like the rules are getting in the way of experiencing that world. The players spend time planning only to find out that their depth of tactical choice is narrow, or we have to spend five to ten minutes resolving a group of mooks shooting someone. Time and again there are breaks in my player's and my own immersion because the rules are so weird. Lethality has been amped up, but its for the sake of making a "grittier game" rather than using it as the tool it can be. Rules still require a ton of cross-referencing, often with contradictory results--this creates a phenominally high barrier for entry.

I either have to keep my players ignorant or let them spend two weeks learning the rules. There are a few things that the system does well. It manages to make shopping fun, and you feel like you've attained actual expertise by understanding how certain pieces fit together into an effective character. Its also really fun to plan out your plan of action and feel like a paramilitary unit... even if planning is actually more fun than doing. In order to address some of these concerns and more I have started developing this list of houserules, eventually to be compiled into a modified word document with the normal rules.

This is a work in progress. I'm posting things here prematurely largely because linking people to this post is easier than spamming their chat piecemeal. I welcome feedback, but I plan to keep discussion an debate to a minimum.

Creation and Advancement
- Karma does not have a scaling cost, except for Initiation an Submersion. Instead, use the following costs:
     Attribute (Increasing to 1-6): 20 Karma
     Attribute (Increasing to 7+): 30 Karma
     Skills (Increasing to 1-6): 7 Karma
     Skills (Increasing to 7-13): 19 Karma
     Initiation / Submersion: 10+Rank*8

- Initiation / Submersion may be purchased at creation with starting Karma.

- Condition Monitor: There is a single condition monitor. It is 10+(Essence + Body + Willpower)/2, rounded up. You receive a -1 Wound Penalty when you have 9 Boxes left, -2 at 7 Boxes, -3 at 5 Boxes, -4 at 3  Boxes, -5 at 1 Box. Track damage like in WoD ( "/" = Stunning, "X" = Physical). Damage beyond a full track first "upgrades" Stunning damage to Physical. If your Condition Monitor is full of Physical Damage then any further damage goes into your Overflow Boxes. Damage to Overflow is always Physical.

- Initiative is equal to 6 + (Reaction + Intuition)/2, rounded up + 2d6

Combat

Combat Resolution
- Damage: Do not add net hits to an attack's DV.
- Soak Rolls: Supply flat Damage Reduction of (Body + Armor after AP)/3, rounded up. Spending a point of Edge increases this to (Body + Armor after AP)/2.
- Converting Physical Damage to Stun: Damage less than the armor's (Damage Reduction)*2 is converted to Stunning. Note that spending Edge effects this.

Called Shots
- Called Shot: You may now combine multiple called shots at once. Their penalties stack.
- Called Shot: Vitals now offers +1 DV for every -2 Penalty you take to your attack roll. The penalty and bonus is only capped by how many dice you have in your dicepool.

Explosive / AoE Attacks
- Scatter: There is no Threshold for explosive weapons. All AoE attacks scatter (2d6-Hits*2) Meters in a random direction, to a minimum of 0. Airburst systems allow you to reroll your scatter dice and direction, keeping whichever pair of rolls you want.
- Being Hit by Multiple Splash Weapons: This isn't a thing. You take damage separately from multiple explosions, applying Damage Reduction separately as well.
- Blasts in a Confined Space: This is a flat increase of 100% damage, before reductions, if the explosion can not initially escape through any surrounding barriers. As long as there is an outlet, this rule does not apply.

To-Do List
- Equipment. Oh God this is going to be a lot of work.
- Riggers. Which I will work on when I hate myself enough to bother.
- Magic, which is actually fairly high-priority. I've given Technomancers and Deckers too much love, comparatively.
- Managing the Three-Worlds concept (Meatspace, Matrix, Astral) better. This should be done before anything else, but I'm not sure how to do it yet.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: SoulGambit on (20:36:18/08-28-13)
Matrix

Locations in the Matrix
Physical location is largely meaningless in the Matrix. Devices and Commlinks are capable of transmitting GPS data--and by default everything does--but that doesn't mean they have to. People in many professions--Shadowrunners, Security Guards, children who don't want their parents to know where they are--turn that functionality off. There is a mild stigma against having one's GPS turned off, but there is an even bigger stigma towards asking about it in any context other than tight security. After all, why do you need to know where that 10-year-old lives, you pervert? A device that is not actively transmitting GPS data may still be found with the Trace Device action.

The Graph
There is a well-known and rather large Matrix Host that is essentially a map of the entire world. People can zoom out, in, and even walk the streets of their favorite city. If they have Simsense enabled, they can even experience the pollution of whatever sprawl they want in real time! The Persona of anyone who has their GPS turned on appears on the Map in their real life location, and personas on the Graph can appear on other people's AR display. The interior of non-public buildings are usually not mapped, but someone can get a list of all GPS-enabled devices in a particular building and if that building has an attached Host, enter that Host.

Loose Devices and PANs
Only Commlinks, Cyberdecks, Living Personas and RCCs naturally have a Firewall rating. Devices without a Firewall rating are totally without protection against wayward hackers. Anyone with a Cyberdeck or a Living Persona may treat any device not attached to a PAN or a Directory as though they had 3 Marks on it. Additionally, such Devices do not have a firewall rating.

In Matrix terms, all Devices on a PAN or a WAN are merged into a singular device. All icons may be manipulated or harmed by manipulating the Master device. Any Marks on the Master also count as Marks on all of its Slaves, and visa versa. Registering or removing a device from a PAN or WAN takes roughly one minute worth of work. There is no limit to the number of devices that can be in a PAN or a WAN.

Hosts
Hosts are further subdivided into Directories. Each Directory contains any number of files and devices. Marks on a Directory count as Marks on all attached Files and Devices, and an attack on a Directory is applied to one of its attached Files or Devices (attacker's choice). A person may use the Brute Force or Hack on the Fly actions against a Directory they are not in, as long as they are in that Directory's Host. All other Matrix and Resonance Actions require that that the Hacker "Access" a particular Directory. One can access a Directory with the "Enter Host" action, and only one Directory may be accessed at a time. Accessing a new directory immediately severs the Hacker's connection to the old one. Intrusion Countermeasures may be considered in any or every Directory at the same time.

By default, a Host can have up to (Host Rating) Directories, and may spread (Host Rating)*2 points of Protection amongst those Directories, with no one Directory getting more than (Host Rating) Protection. A Directory rolls Protection + [Host's Matrix Attribute] to defend against all actions, and is incapable of actions on its own. Many Hosts have at least one Directory with no protection as a sort of store front or face, where visitors can enter. Many Directories are also protected with a Data Bomb. Beyond that, its merely a question of how much the Host wants a potential Hacker to have access to at once.

Short-Wave Hacking
Adding this later. Its going to cover "Point my Cyberdeck at that camera and I hack it."

Long-Range Hacking
What's required to make that ganger holding a gun to your friend's head jam when you're on the other side of the continent??

Basics
- Matrix Actions are all resisted with Intuition + [Matrix Attribute]
- Computer may be used like the Leadership skill, but only applying to Pilot Programs, Agents, and Sprites (who may not normally be affected by Leadership).
- Computer's new Rally option only applied to multiple targets if used through an RCC.
- Marks have gone from a 1-4 scale to a 1-5 scale. 5 Marks is Ownership.
- Not having an Attack or Hacking attribute is the same as having it at 0. Edge and other cap-breakers may be used normally.
- Someone inside VR may open up a window screen displaying their meat body's statistics and to "send commands," just like someone can use AR to view the Matrix. Mechanically, you can be aware of what goes on around your body and even perform actions with it, but you receive a -12 penalty on all actions and defense rolls performed through your meatsuit.

Existing Matrix Actions
- All Matrix Actions that are Complex Actions, except Full Matrix Defense and Control Device, become Simple Actions.
- Data Spike counts as your "Attack" for that initiative pass.
- Erase Mark is now a [Data Processing] Action.
- You may not take a -6 or -10 penalty to apply multiple Marks to a target through Brute Force or Hack on the Fly, but see Multiple Matrix Attack, below.
- All actions that require at least one Mark, except Enter Host, increase the number of required Marks by one.
- Spoof Command requires 3 Marks.
- The defender does not gain a Matrix Defense against the following Matrix Actions: Control Device, Crash Program, Edit File, Format Device, Snoop, Spoof Command.
- Snoop only lasts as long as your Mark remains on the target.

New Matrix actions

Manual Quarantine
(Interrupt Action, -5 Initiative)
Marks Required: 3
You personally monitor all incoming and outgoing traffic from your device or persona, allowing you to better notice and counter intrusions. By decreasing your initiative by 5, you add your Electronic Warfare skill ranks to all Matrix Defense tests for the rest of the Initiative Pass. Any Matrix Defense test that utilizes this bonus receives a Limit of your Persona's [Data Processing].

Corrupt Access
(Interrupt Action, -5 Initiative)
Marks Required: 3
You actively hunt down errant data in your registry, using your own Decking skills to corrupt and and cut off any data that shouldn't be running. By decreasing your initiative by 5, you add your Cybercombat skill ranks to all Matrix Defense tests against [Attack] actions for the rest of the Initiative Pass. Any Matrix Defense test that utilizes this bonus receives a Limit of your Persona's [Attack]. This is still not considered an Attack action--you do not receive additional Matrix Damage on a failed defense.

Run Analysis
(Simple Action)
Marks Required: 2
Dicepool: Software + Logic [Data Processing]
You may create a dynamic combat simulation of every possible action a given target may take. This simulation creates a network between all involved devices (usually weapons) and updates in real time, giving advice on how to best approach a combat situation. Mechanically, this Matrix Action uses a Commlink or other device to "Mark" a target in meatspace. Hits on this this test are applied as a penalty to any Defense roll made by the "Mark" against anyone who attacks with a wirelessly enabled weapon while also using an image link and/or smartlink. The person who used this action may decide that the Mark only receives the penalty against certain attacks. Marks required for this action must be on the device doing the processing, and that device being compromised or bricked causes the penalty to immediately cease.

Multiple Matrix Attack
(Free Action)
Marks Required: Owner
Dicepool: None (Data Processing Action)
This action may only be performed through your Persona, and allows you to perform a single Matrix Action multiple times. This may modify any one other Matrix Action performed during this initiative pass, and functions like performing Multiple Attacks. This action may not be performed on actions that do not have an opposed roll or Resonance actions.

Debug Code
(Simple Action)
Marks Required: Owner
Dicepool: None (Data Processing Action)
You open up and tinker with the core functionality of your Commlink or Cyberdeck. This grants you +1 Bonus Die or a +1 Bonus to your Limit on the next Matrix Action you perform. You may use Debug Code multiple times in a row, applying a cumulative bonus. If you sue a non-Matrix, non-Interrupt action then this bonus is lost. No single roll may benefit from more than [Data Processing] uses of this action.

Technomancers
- Technomancers assign the following priorities to their living persona, rather than basing their Living Persona off of their mental attributes: (Resonance +1), (Resonance), (Resonance -1), (Resonance -2).
- Technomancers have a Device Rating equal to their Resonance/2.
- When threading a complex form, the Technomancer may choose whether the target becomes aware of the attack on a failed action or a successful one.
- Threading a Complex Form is still a Complex Action.
- Complex Forms are always opposed by Intuition + [Matrix Attribute]
- A Technomancer may learn any Matrix Action that targets another Device in the Matrix that is not an interrupt action as a Complex Form. Doing so changes the Dice Pool to a Software + Resonance [Level] roll vs. Intuition + Firewall. There is always a resist roll, although Resonance Actions never require Marks. The Fading for these Complex Forms is (Level + Required Marks -1).

Existing Complex Forms
-  Infusion of [Matrix Attribute]'s bonus is capped at +4 rather than twice the modified attribute, to be in line with other augmentations.
- Editor is just Edit File as a Complex Form.
- Puppeteer is a Simple Test. On the target's next action phase, they must succeed in an Intuition + Firewall test with a Threshold equal to the Technomancer's net hits or perform that action instead of whatever they were going to do.
- Resonance Channel applies to all Noise, but increase its FV to Level + 0
- Pulse Storm gains a duration of S.

New Complex Forms

Resonance Emulation
Target:
Device Duration: S FV: Level + 2
Select up to one common or hacking program per two Levels this Complex Form is Threaded at and make a Software + Resonance [Level] vs. (Number of Programs Currently Running on the Device)x2. If successful, the target immediately begins running the selected programs.

Sprites
- Diagnostics allows you to use the Sprites [Level] as the Limit when using the target item. The Teamwork bonus only applies to build or repair an object.
- A Technomancer may grant a Sprite up to 1 Optional Power per three levels of the Sprite.
- Sprites may select any Common or Hacking program as an optional power.

Updated Unwired Sprites
- To be done later.

Echoes
- Fine as-is.

Updating Unwired Echos
- Amplification may be purchased. It takes a free action to use, but grants Noise Reduction equal to half of the Technomancer's Grade (rounded up) on one action.
- Biowire is an option. A Technomancer may have upload a total of (Grade x3) points of Skillsoft, with no individual Skillsoft being higher than (Grade or 6, whichever is lower). The Technomancer must have the Skillsoft on a datastorage he owns and the Emulation Complex Form is not necessary.
- E-Sensing may be purchased. It allows the Technomancer to know the exact presence, nature and location of all devices within 100 meters who are not successfully running silent against the Technomancer. This includes devices not currently connected to the Matrix.
- Living ECM may be purchased, and functions as presented. However, use SR5's rules for Jammers. Note that like a normal Jammer, the Technomancer may choose to exclude certain devices, et cetera.
- Macro functions like Fork, but for Resonance Actions. It imposes a -2 penalty to both the Threading and Resist Fading rolls.
- Multiprocessing lowers the penalty for using your meatsuit while in VR by 2 per Grade.
- Skinlink may be purchased, an allows a Technomancer to directly connect to devices through touch.
- Sprite Link exists and functions as presented.
- Swap exists and may be purchased an unlimited number of times. It reduces the total penalty from sustaining complex forms, not the penalty per form.
- Acceleration exists as a basic Echo. It may be purchased up to three times, granting +1 Reaction and +1d6 to Physical Initiative per time it is purchased. This bonus counts as Augmentation.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: SoulGambit on (20:48:24/08-28-13)
Aight. Done.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (21:59:46/08-28-13)
If you want feedback, perhaps you should add motivations for your houserules first.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: deek on (23:47:07/08-30-13)
For my latest campaign, I decided to start really low power (using variations of Street Level and Street Scum), but advance characters arcade-like (similar to Shadowrun Returns).  The basic chargen flow doesn't change, so you follow the same nine steps in Section 3.

When you get to Step Two (on Page 65), the Priority Table is replaced with the following:
 
(http://www.deeksworld.com/Priority Table.png)
 
When you pick your Metatype, you start with the minimum attributes found on the table on page 66. You may then spend your attribute points to raise any of the 8 attributes by up to two points. For example, a human starts out with a 1 in each of the 8 attributes and had you chosen the B Priority for Attributes (i.e. 16 points), you would start out with a 3 in every stat.
 
Step Four, you start the game with 5 Karma (not 25 as it states in the book) and you are allowed to take up to 10 points in Negative Qualities to top your Karma out at 15.  This allows you to take up to 15 points in Positive Qualities, if you so wish.
 
In Step Five, you ignore the skill limits on page 88, but similar to Shadowrun Returns, skills cannot exceed the attribute it is linked to.  So, since Pistols is linked to Agility (see page 90 for the skill chart), you cannot have a Pistols skill higher than your Agility attribute.  In addition, I do NOT allow any specializations or skill groups.  Note, you still get the free knowledge and language skill points equal to (INT + LOG) x 2 (page 89).
 
In Step Six, the maximum gear rating you can purchase is 4 (i.e. many pieces of gear have rating between 1-6, so you can't start out with any ratings higher than 4). You may also not start with any gear higher than Availability 10.
 
If you have any karma leftover in Step Seven, you may use it to exchange 1 Karma for 2,000 nuyen (up to a maximum of 10,000 nuyen). You may also use the karma to increase attributes and skills character advancement rules (see below).  Contacts will not be purchased but assigned by the GM based on character background.
 
For character advancement, it will go much faster than the book.  All the karma you receive will NOT use the advancement tables on page 107, but simply be New Rating, in karma, per point (attributes, active, knowledge, language skills or buying positive qualities). This means if you have a 3 Strength and want to increase it to 4 (i.e. New Rating), it will cost you 4 karma to do so. You cannot payoff negative qualities with karma, but only during in-game (role)playing.
 
So far, things have been running smoothly.  This is a bi-weekly game, roughly 4 hours a session. It has a good feel to it, with characters projected to last for about a year and a half before the power curve tops out (at least that is what I am projecting). I'd welcome any sort of feedback.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FastJack on (23:08:40/08-31-13)
After deliberation, this will be the home for 5E House Rules, while the other thread will remain for previous editions.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Maelflux on (07:05:05/09-02-13)
Hey Fastjack,

I don't know if this was asked before, but could it be possible to have a sub-forum for house rules?

I really think it's a shame that many good ideas are lost and/or impossible to discuss, because one long thread for all house rules will end up being so huge.

Cheers.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Palladion on (11:45:00/09-02-13)
Cyberlimbs and Armor

Armor for cyberlimbs use the same rules as for armor accessories (SR5 169), meaning they are "+" rating. The Strength attribute can be the average of all limbs (SR5 455) when used to determine encumbrance.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Manyfist on (20:16:56/09-04-13)
This is something that's been going around 4chan /tg/ Shadowrun General threads.

Priority 10

Premise: Priority system really punishes certain types of builds, so some anon came up with this simple system of helping. It's not perfect, but neither is regular priority.

You start with 10 points to spend on 5 priorities.
A-4pts
B-3pts
C-2pts
D-1pts
E-0pts


So as long you add up to 10 you're good. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Noble Drake on (22:03:19/09-04-13)
This is something that's been going around 4chan /tg/ Shadowrun General threads.

Priority 10

Premise: Priority system really punishes certain types of builds, so some anon came up with this simple system of helping. It's not perfect, but neither is regular priority.

You start with 10 points to spend on 5 priorities.
A-4pts
B-3pts
C-2pts
D-1pts
E-0pts


So as long you add up to 10 you're good.
No anon came up with that, it's been around for over a decade and was even one of the possible methods of character creation supported by the NSRCG utility for SR3 - I'd even bet that it was printed in some supplement for SR2 or SR3, though I don't feel like digging through my books to find it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Veggiesama on (01:10:16/09-06-13)
Hey Fastjack,

I don't know if this was asked before, but could it be possible to have a sub-forum for house rules?

I really think it's a shame that many good ideas are lost and/or impossible to discuss, because one long thread for all house rules will end up being so huge.

Cheers.
Gotta agree. It would be awesome to have a sub-forum.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (11:32:17/09-06-13)
Here's a new Positive Quality I was considering adding as a House Rule:

TechnoMagic Harmony (10 or 25 points)
Your familiarity and understanding with magic and technology has allowed you to mitigate some of the challenges with combining the two. You must be awakened to take this quality.

10 Points:
- Reduce the Object Resistance Dice Pool Modifier by one level. The level can be reduced no lower than "Natural Objects"
- Reduce the dice pool penalty for applying Health Spells to Low Essence characters by half.

25 Points: For the purpose of calculating maximum Magic, essence loss due to cyberware/bioware installation is divided in half. If this change is taken after chargen and results in a Maximum Magic score higher than current Magic, karma must be spent to raise Magic to its new maximum as normal.

Too much? I started drafting it at only the 10 point level but then thought the 25 point level might be a natural extension.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: SoulGambit on (07:04:35/09-08-13)
The 10-pt version is fine. I'd shy away from allowing the 25pt version, though.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Valashar on (13:26:44/09-08-13)
I would alter the 25-point version to treat essence loss as 1 point less before determining loss of current/maximum magic attribute, treating partial points as a full point after that as normal. So a mage who gets 2.3 points of implants (why? because they're insane... or one of the old arcology Blues) with this quality would treat their essence loss as only 1.3, or -2 to current/maximum magic attribute.

Another alternative for something like this would be to treat it as a kind of metamagic and have the reduction of lost essence be treated as half of the mage's initiate grade.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: SavarWallk on (23:17:06/09-10-13)
Working on a concept of Resonance items for Technomancers.

these Items require Karma to make them a peripheral of the Technomancer.

they would require a Technomancer to make.  Maybe requiring a trip to a Deep Resonance Zone while making the item?

maybe a device that would allow a Technomancer to have a PAN, would that device need a rating ? or would the Rating of his Living Persona be used ?

a Device to reduce Noise.  Having a rating ?

a device to allow a Technomancer to use a universal jack port.  (to access a wired only system)

To use these devices one would need a Complex Form.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (10:25:05/09-11-13)
Cyberlimb Houserules
Like (apparently) a lot of people, I'm not particularly fond of the suggested ruling concerning cyberlimb customization and enhancements. I find it creates a strange world where one of the most effective chargen cyber-augmented street samurai started life as a clumsy invalid with ware allowing you to dump STR & AGI and prioritize other chargen concerns higher. In an attempt to streamline the rules and reduce a bit of the exploitation, I came up with the following:

Cyberskulls/Cybertorsos:
- Do not have STR/AGI scores and are not factored into calculations for those attributes.
- May still have armor upgrades and capacity can be used to install appropriate cyberware.

Cyberlimbs:
- Cyberlimb Customization: Using advanced medical sensors, cyberlimbs adjust to the overall bone strength, musculature, and flexibility of the body in which they are installed as both a safety feature as well as reducing the dissonance between what the mind knows the body is capable of and the capabilities of the cyberlimb. Instead of coming stock with STR (3)/AGI (3), cyberlimbs auto-adjust to the STR and AGI scores of the body in which they are implanted. These values adjust as the body improves or degrades. Any improvements over the natural maximum for that character are capped at +4.
- Cyberlimb Enhancement: Using advanced software and interface technology, a cyberlimb can be made to perform in excess of the capabilites of the body into which it is installed. No change from current rules, Rating 1-3 improvements.

So what would these changes mean in game terms? It means that the 1 STR/1 AGI guy is still only going to have 1 STR/1AGI when he gets out of surgery unless he opted for enhancements (then he could be at 4 STR/4 AGI). On the plus side, if he decided to spend some karma to upgrade his STR or AGI later, his cyberlimb would adapt and increase as well. It also means that the troll that gets a cyberarm wouldn't have to pay 10,000 nuyen extra just to customize his arm to the lowest possible STR score he could otherwise have. It would adapt to his frame and musculature and start out at 8 or 9 or whatever his STR may be.

Buy why get cyberalimbs? Well, they do allow 1-3 points worth of enhancement over anything a mundane could do. They can also be outfit with armor and give you an extra box on your condition monitor. Then there are the other accessories (gyromounts, implant weapons, smuggling compartments, etc). There are still a variety of reasons why you would go with them without being exploitive.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (12:33:08/09-11-13)
- Cyberlimb Customization: Using advanced sensors, cyberlimbs adjust to the overall bone strength, musculature, and flexibility of the body in which they are installed as both a safety feature as well as reducing the dissonance between what the mind knows the body is capable of and the capabilities of the cyberlimb. Instead of coming stock with STR (3)/AGI (3), cyberlimbs auto-adjust to the non-augmented STR and AGI scores of the body in which they are implanted. These values adjust as the body improves or degrades, but are not compatible with permanent augmentations separate from the cyberlimb.
While this makes sense from a game balance perspective (although I personally don't like the idea that cyberlimbs are basically capped at +3 when the standard augmentation bonus cap is +4), it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for a cyberlimb, which I think doesn't have any organic material in it, to simply match your natural attributes without any extra effort being put into it. And considering how expensive they made Customization compared to 4th Edition, simply scrapping it seems a bit weird.

Personally, if you're going to restrict cyberlimbs, I would prefer using one of these three houserules, combined with an "if you take Exceptional Attribute, you must softcap or hardcap that attribute" houserule (and keeping the "no customizing beyond natural maximum" rule, of course):
The first option only seriously limits characters with low Agi, and Humans/Elves with low Str: Dwarfs/Orks can still max their maximum cyberlimb Str by putting a single Attribute point into Strength, while Trolls are okay at the racial minimum. This puts the highest cyberlimb bonus at +6 (+7 for Str for Dwarfs/Orks, +8 for Str for Trolls).

The second option allows for less minmaxing by metatypes with a higher base Strength (Humans/Elfs need 4+ natural to max, Dwarfs/Orks need 6+ natural to max, Trolls need 7+ natural to max). This puts the highest cyberlimb bonus at +5 (+6 for Str for Dwarfs/Orks/Trolls).

The third option requires all metatypes to put at least 2 Attributes points into the attribute if they want to max out the cyberlimb, putting the highest cyberlimb bonus at +6 regardless of metatype. It also allows all metatypes to start game with maxed out cyberlimbs (even if they have Exceptional Attribute, in which case the highest bonus for the Exceptional attribute is +4 if they softcap it), although at the same nuyen cost that Customization would normally cost.

All three options prevent the "1(9)" builds that people dislike (although the first one doesn't prevent a "5(13)" build for Trolls), while still allowing cyberlimbs to give a bigger bonus than the +4 these-affect-your-entire-body augmentation bonus cap, which I feel is part of the charm of cyberlimbs. Plus they all allow you to buy your cyberlimbs maxed out and wait until your natural stats "fill in" a bit more before you can take full advantage of them.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Neojudas on (01:34:05/09-14-13)
Wow, interesting way to post house rules.  The bulk of ours here are going onto the groups Wiki section of the website, but maybe we will bounce a few things in here.

One question for all the "House Rulers" whom have posted so far... When do you realize you have house ruled yourself entirely out of the core system?  I'm asking this because while we have always had extensive House Rules, the vast majority of those were expansions to the rules and not ever intended as full on rule replacement except in certain areas (training times and skill caps for example).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (01:57:51/09-14-13)
Cyberlimb Houserules
Like (apparently) a lot of people, I'm not particularly fond of the suggested ruling concerning cyberlimb customization and enhancements. I find it creates a strange world where one of the most effective chargen cyber-augmented street samurai started life as a clumsy invalid with ware allowing you to dump STR & AGI and prioritize other chargen concerns higher. In an attempt to streamline the rules and reduce a bit of the exploitation, I came up with the following:

Cyberskulls/Cybertorsos:
- Do not have STR/AGI scores and are not factored into calculations for those attributes.
- May still have armor upgrades and capacity can be used to install appropriate cyberware.

Cyberlimbs:
- Cyberlimb Customization: Using advanced medical sensors, cyberlimbs adjust to the overall bone strength, musculature, and flexibility of the body in which they are installed as both a safety feature as well as reducing the dissonance between what the mind knows the body is capable of and the capabilities of the cyberlimb. Instead of coming stock with STR (3)/AGI (3), cyberlimbs auto-adjust to the STR and AGI scores of the body in which they are implanted. These values adjust as the body improves or degrades. Any improvements over the natural maximum for that character are capped at +4.
- Cyberlimb Enhancement: Using advanced software and interface technology, a cyberlimb can be made to perform in excess of the capabilites of the body into which it is installed. No change from current rules, Rating 1-3 improvements.

So what would these changes mean in game terms? It means that the 1 STR/1 AGI guy is still only going to have 1 STR/1AGI when he gets out of surgery unless he opted for enhancements (then he could be at 4 STR/4 AGI). On the plus side, if he decided to spend some karma to upgrade his STR or AGI later, his cyberlimb would adapt and increase as well. It also means that the troll that gets a cyberarm wouldn't have to pay 10,000 nuyen extra just to customize his arm to the lowest possible STR score he could otherwise have. It would adapt to his frame and musculature and start out at 8 or 9 or whatever his STR may be.

Buy why get cyberalimbs? Well, they do allow 1-3 points worth of enhancement over anything a mundane could do. They can also be outfit with armor and give you an extra box on your condition monitor. Then there are the other accessories (gyromounts, implant weapons, smuggling compartments, etc). There are still a variety of reasons why you would go with them without being exploitive.

I think cyber limbs would be where they should be if they just said that a limb attribute was always equal to the natural attribute of the user, but to prevent exploiting the metatypes for this, require that for every point above or below the baseline (let's just stay with 3 here since that's average human), one must spend 5,000 per point of difference per attribute additional for the limb.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (13:39:40/09-18-13)
One question for all the "House Rulers" whom have posted so far... When do you realize you have house ruled yourself entirely out of the core system? 

Why does it matter, as long as the players and GM agree on the rules and everyone is having fun?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Xenon on (07:22:26/09-19-13)
I think cyber limbs would be where they should be if they just said that a limb attribute was always equal to the natural attribute of the user, but to prevent exploiting the metatypes for this, require that for every point above or below the baseline (let's just stay with 3 here since that's average human), one must spend 5,000 per point of difference per attribute additional for the limb.
+1
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Noble Drake on (10:02:39/09-19-13)
Here is my one, and probably only, house-rule:

When attacking with anything subject to scatter rules, roll the scatter distance before the attack roll, and reduce that distance by 2 or 4 meters per hit depending on the type of attack being used.

Standard grenades scatter 1d6 meters, and this is reduced by 2 meters per hit
Aerodynamic grenades scatter 2d6 meters, and this is reduced by 4 meters per hit
Launched grenades scatter 3d6 meters, and this is reduced by 2 meters per hit (4 meters per hit if an airburst link is used)
Rockets scatter 3d6 meters, and this is reduced by 2 meters per hit
Missiles scatter 3d6 meters, and this is reduced by 4 meters per hit

The last two have had their scatter distance reduced back to SR3 distances because I just don't get how a rocket or missile could be less accurate than a launched grenade.

This results in no effective change where thrown grenades are concerned, but makes it so that the accuracy of launcher type weapons actually matters for something.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Rotor on (17:15:36/09-21-13)
One of my players love the tehnomancer "concept" but we find the fading unplayable. We'll probably try this and if you think that it's overpowered or unplayable please say so!
FADING:
After
Quote
Technomancers are powerful, but not inexhaustible. Resonance
abilities strain the user, even to the point of collapse
if they’re used too much. Technomancers call this
drain Fading. Fading is resisted with Resonance + Willpower
replace all the following text up to "for compiling, etc" with :
[spoiler]Whenever a technomancer threads a complex form
or summons a sprite, they must resist Fading damage
from the mental exertion of shaping the Resonance according
to their will. The amount of Fading damage is indicated
by the complex form, although can never be less
than 2 DV (before the resistance test).
A technomancer has one more condition monitor than the other characters : the noise monitor.
This monitor has (resonance * 1.5) boxes (rounded up)
Each point of Fading damage fills a box of the noise monitor. Each 3 filled noise boxes adds 1 point of noise (p230) to all subsequent matrix actions of the technomancer.
Normally, noise heals only with rest like stun but, unless all the boxes are filled , the technomancer can use a complex action to clear all the noises box  in exchange for 2 stun damages.
once all noise boxes are  filled, they can't be cleared against stun and subsequent fading damage will be physical. [/spoiler]
ignore the last sentence of the paragraph.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Veggiesama on (21:35:12/09-21-13)
(repost from elsewhere with edits)

We use a map but don't really like to track everyone's position down to the 1m mark, so I wish the grenade rules were less focused on scatter distance and more focused on opposed tests. I like the Suppressive Fire rules, so here's my take on how to make grenades/AOE spells work like suppressive fire (hereby dubbed "Jesus Saves and Takes Half Damage"):

1. Choose a target zone. Generally, the GM can rule how many targets are caught in the AOE, based on the weapon's blast radius.
2. Make the relevant attack test (i.e., Weapon skill + Agility). Record hits.
3. Any person in the target zone, but not behind cover or prone, at the time of detonation makes a Reaction + Edge (+Full Defense dice, if chosen) with a threshold equal to the attacker's hits.
* [OPTIONAL: Fragmentation blasts and indirect AOE spells reduce the defender's dicepool by 2, but high explosive grenades, missiles, rockets, and so on do not, due to their more penetrating and less shrapnel-based explosions.]
4. Targets may go prone as a Free action (if they still have one) or use Hit the Dirt as an Interrupt action to go prone.
5. If you're prone or behind cover at the time of detonation, you automatically succeed at the defense test.
6. Failure = Target suffers grenade's base DV. Other targets suffer a reduced DV, based on distance from the primary target or center of blast. Indirect AOE spells always deal full damage to all targets caught in the target zone.
7. Success = Target suffers grenade's base DV (adjusted by distance, if necessary) divided by 2. AP is unaffected.
* [OPTIONAL: If the character is behind flimsy or questionable cover, use the Barrier penetration rules. Roll a Structure + Armor to reduce the DV first, then allow the target to resist the remaining DV, but do not divide it by 2.]
8. Glitches and critical glitches result in hilarious and dangerous scatter, as the GM wishes.
[* OPTIONAL: Chunky salsa too rough? If a blast would bounce off the walls or ceiling of a small, enclosed space, the GM can increase the grenade's base DV by up to twice as much. Flashbang blast waves do not bounce.]

Suppressive fire usually deals no damage if you succeed at the test, hide behind cover, or go prone. Essentially, this house rule lets you use the suppressive fire rules for grenades, but instead of suffering a dice pool penalty for being caught in a suppressed zone, you always take at least half damage from a grenade. With decent armor, this half-damage can usually be soaked, but it's still capable of causing a few scratches.

It also gives a lot more control to GMs who don't want combat to devolve into count-the-radius. Grenades should be scary and worth splitting up your team, but not so scary that you can't do anything to counter or resist them.

I use Edge instead of Intuition on the defense test because dodging shrapnel is not generally something you can predict, but rather a matter of the grenade's bouncing trajectory, how the explosive material is distributed within the grenade, how good of a ditch you make when your body hits the ground, and other assorted factors that add up to something called "luck."
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Xenon on (03:55:34/09-22-13)
Or just resolve AoE attacks just like a regular ranged attack (+scatter at step 2)

p.181: Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons. Some special rules also apply. (such as scatter)

DADA p.173 (+ Scatter from p.181):
Declare that you throw a grenade
Resolve the Attack test with combat skill + attribute +/- modifiers [Limit]. Note number of hits. Less than 3 hits and the grenade might scatter.
Resolve the Defend test with Reaction + Intuition +/- modifiers. If the defender scores more hits than the attacker, the attack misses because the defender managed to take cover from the blast. If the attack was successful; Reduce the modified damage value with 1 for each hit scored on Body + modified armor value test.
Apply effect of remaining damage value on the target's condition monitor.



Remember to add applicable modifiers to the defense test (p.189). For example; It is easier for to avoid getting hit by the blast for targets that have have partial or good cover. All targets in the blast area also always get -2 on their defense tests because the attack is an area-effect.

The same procedure (defender take a defense test with -2) is also used to defend against indirect LOS (A) combat spells. The only addition is that LOS (A) spells have the same DV all the way out to the edge of the AoE (Indirect Combat Spells p.283) and if the magician get more than 3 hits on his test the LOS (A) spell's DV will be modified with the number of net hits (Indirect Combat Spells p.283). This exact behavior (with defenders taking a defense test to reduce the modified DV and possible avoiding the attack if they had rolled more hits than the magician) is also illustrated in the example on p.283.




Note that both Bull and Aaron have hinted that a future errata might or might not state that Ranged combat rules does not apply to grenades, that the table on p.189 and the action on p.190 are copy paste errors from an earlier draft, that the example on p.283 is wrong, table on p.477 is wrong, p.181 need clarification that defenders does not get to take a defense test and that partial or good cover does not in any way shape or form help to reduce damage taken, damage and passengers on p.205 need clarification etc..
- But until an errata is live I am not even sure I need to call it this a House Rule at all ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (16:26:11/09-22-13)
I know there is a lot of arguing over boosting initiative. Here are the house rules I am considering:

Initiative Booster House Rules

Initiative Boosters: Spells. powers, cyberware, bioware, etc. that result in direct or indirect increases to physical initiative.
Classes: Narrowly defined similar groupings. Classes include cyberware, bioware, spells, adept powers, drugs, etc.
Stacking: Only initiative boosters within the same class stack. The only exception to this rule are drugs which can stack with anything.
Maximum Augmented [Attribute]: The maximum a character can augment any attribute is equal to the Racial Max [+Exceptional Attribute, if applicable]+4.
Maximum Boosted Initiative: No matter what combination of same-class initiative boosters are used, the maximum initiative a character can have = (MaxAugReaction) + (MaxAugIntuition) + 5D6.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (16:30:38/09-22-13)
Why are you houseruling the Augmented Maximum rule? And why does Increase Reflexes not provide an additional Initiative bonus?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: DigitalZombie on (16:41:50/09-22-13)
I was thinking about houseruling/clarifying the initiative stacking also.
As of right now increased initiative stacks with wired reflexes but not with improved reflexes, which is kinda odd.
Id put improved/wired and synaptic booster as essentially the same thing (except for reaction enhancers for wired)

Also remember while drugs can stack with everything, including other drugs you might OD if 2 or more drugs give the same benefit.

magic related houserules/clarifications
1. preparations with control thoughts\actions etc must either be left blank at creation and controlled by the caster after activation or be coded with general actions and working independently from the caster after activation      1. dont know RAW or RAI, but like this versatile approach
2. contact preparations work just fine with bolts and ares duelist swords (if the caster can carry the duelists 75 kilos)    2.rule of cool trumps RAW/RAI   
3. poison\shock\preparations cant be combined      3 balance trumps rule of cool
4. spirits of force 6 and greater will use edge to resist summoner      
5. spirit affinity might not use edge, spirit bane will always try to use edge to resist      
6. Aspected magicians gain astral projection   6: a dedicated summoner/enchanter trumps an aspected summoner/alchemist, that aint right
7. Aspected magicians gain 5 AM karma points at D and B, 15 at C      7. you should not loose karma by limiting yourself
7a. AM karma points can only be used on spells/rituals/preparations binding spirits/bonding foci or exchanging it for nuyen to buy foci/lodges or reagents   7a: a way to not screw aspected summoners as they cant get spells   
8. ritual minion numbers are capped by logic and not charisma      8. its more of a hermetic mage thing I think
9. all awakened characters can be used as ritual spotters, as long as they can astrally perceive, either with adept powers, innate powers or drugs      9 :think its RAW
10. Adepts can choose improved smell/taste as improved sense powers (giving a plus 2 bonus)      10: makes sense I guess
      
Drone/rigging related
1.Drones         
size            CM                        to hit penalty\sneaking bonus   Overflow
micro   4+half body                            6                               body
mini           4+half body                            4                               body +1
small   6+half body                            2                               body +2
medium   8+half body                            0                               body +3
large   8+half body                            0                               body +4
1: I find it odd that its just as easy to hit a cockroach sized drone as hitting a troll. I furthermore find it odd that a drone works at 100% capacity until it takes the last point of damage, at which point it is totally unrepairable.
         
2. Repair costs are 10% of base price divided by CM boxes. Per box repaired.      
3. All drones comes with a free rating 1 maneuver autosoft      3. as drones cant default on skills they cant move... thats silly   
4. Maneuver autosoft can always be used by the drone, even when using autosofts from RCC. It doesnt count against their limit      4. having x number of different drones active, means you have x number of program slots dedicated to move/not crash, dont like it   
5. drone vehicle sensors can be upgraded as normal sensor arrays, with the same limitations         
6. autosofts costs 500 per level   6. like errata      
7. maximum armour rating is body times 2 for flying drones larger than micro drones and body times 2 +2 for groundbased drones larger than microdrones      7. need for more armour, yet no price has been found yet, so not implemented   
         
8. Gunnery is used with agility         
9 sensor assisted gunnery is used with logic         
10. perception may be exchanged by EW  when using sensors         
11. agility is used with sneaking and other agility based skills         
12. hot sim gives a +2 bonus         
13. Implanted smartlink works if the drone also has smartlink and the weapon is a smart gun, if operated in VR.         13. like smart firing platform
14. the drone gains a plus 1 wireless bonus with smartlink, riggers can get plus 2 with implanted.         
15. maximum feedback damage is calculated on the drone\vehicles CM, with no overflow         
      
Matrix
1. diagnostic powers can give bonus to repair on just about anything. If an item\augmentation gives a dice pool bonus it can generally benefit   
1a. muscle aug\skilljack\wire\reac enh\bone lacing etc cant get the benefit.    
2.Cyberdecks and RCC cant benefit from a commlinks superior firewall rating when it is in use   
   
meat world            
1.Cyberlimbs are restricted by the +4 augment bonus, in any combination of customized/enhanced      
2.sensor arrays cant be put in eyes\ears      
3.capacity slots are filled with standard grade items, and not as the grade of the ware itself      
4.Drugs doesnt count as augmentations, stacks with cyber/bioware and magic      
5.Legal licenses costs 100 nuyen, has no level, but is part of a SIN      
6.contact lenses doesnt stack with glasses or googles (except for flare comp)      
7.no semi automatic specialisation for pistols, or wheeled for groundcraft   
8.10 point natural immunity(called drug adaption) gives a +2 addiction resist bonus and can be taken for cram(3stun) deepweed(half negative duration) jazz(half negative duration) nitro (half negative duration and 5 stun) novacoke (half negative duration, stats are halved)      
9. natural healing can be boosted with tech and magic and thereby heal fade/drain      
10. wired reflexes/synaptic booster/improved reflexes doesnt stack with each other, but stacks with increased reflexes and drugs      
11. Initiative bonus maximum is +8(without drugs and adrenalin boost, but with any combination of augmentation or spell) +5d6      
      
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (16:47:55/09-22-13)
Am I houseruling Augmented Max?I thought I was restating them. Then again, given that there isn't really a very clear explanation of it, who knows?

I've set it up the way I have as I feel its a much clearer and easier to make a ruling. It's still open to certain abuses (magic for instance), but there are ways to deal with that (dispelling, disenchanting, etc).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Crunch on (16:58:58/09-22-13)
Am I houseruling Augmented Max?I thought I was restating them. Then again, given that there isn't really a very clear explanation of it, who knows?


For everything except cyber arms the Augmented Max for SR5 is Natural Attribute +4, you've house ruled it back to the SR4 version.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (17:03:26/09-22-13)
Am I houseruling Augmented Max?I thought I was restating them. Then again, given that there isn't really a very clear explanation of it, who knows?


For everything except cyber arms the Augmented Max for SR5 is Natural Attribute +4, you've house ruled it back to the SR4 version.
Hmmm. I guess I wasn't clear in my writing. The intention is to place the maximum total static portion of the initiative equation to (Maximum possible augmented Reaction for the given character) + (Maximum possible augmented Intuition for the given character). How exactly should that be written?

I guess I could change "augment" to improve, but I want to make sure that it is clear that the maximum an attribute can be increased without spending karma on it is by +4.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:09:38/09-22-13)
So to be clear, a character without boosted Reaction and Intuition could max get another +8 Initiative from Increased Reflexes, whereas with boosted Reaction +4 the best they could get is +4 extra?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (17:20:58/09-22-13)
A human without Exceptional Attribute in either of the initiative affecting attributes would be able to have a maximum Initiative attribute of 20 ((6+4) Reaction + (6+4) Intuition) assuming they had 6s in both Reaction and Intuition already. They could get that through sustaining Increase [Reaction] w/ 4 net hits and Increase [Intuition] w/4 net hits. They could alternately do it by getting 8 net hits on Increase Reflexes.

Since the initiative attribute is derived, I don't really consider it being capped as the others, but capped based on the attributes used in the derivation.

For a further example, let's say a runner has Reaction (4), Intuition (4). His maximum Initiative attribute is 16. He could get that by having a mage cast Increase Reaction w/2 net hits, Increased Intuition w/2 net hits and Increased Reflexes with 4 net hits (or any combination thereof that adds up to 8). Not sure if that is clearer or not...
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Xenon on (17:22:42/09-22-13)
@JackVII "normal" augmented maximum is current natural rating +4 (not racial maximum rating +4).

As of right now increased initiative stacks with wired reflexes but not with improved reflexes, which is kinda odd.
Improved Reflexes is always on and rank 3 only cost 3.5 PP (bad if it stack with wired 1)
Synaptic Boosters cost very little essence - so it does not stack with magic (or anything else for that matter).
Wired Reflexes 1 is strong but rank 2+ cost a lot of essence (bad if wired 1 stack with adept or bio)
Mystic Adepts can get both increase initiative and improved reflexes (would be bad if they stack).
increase reflexes is not permanent must be recast every morning and sustained in some way (OK if it stack).


Maybe we could continue here:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12756.0
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (17:24:15/09-22-13)
A human without Exceptional Attribute in either of the initiative affecting attributes would be able to have a maximum Initiative attribute of 20 ((6+4) Reaction + (6+4) Intuition) assuming they had 6s in both Reaction and Intuition already. They could get that through sustaining Increase [Reaction] w/ 4 net hits and Increase [Intuition] w/4 net hits. They could alternately do it by getting 8 net hits on Increased Reflexes.

Since the initiative attribute is derived, I don't really consider it being capped as the others, but capped based on the attributes used in the derivation.
I think his point is that this house rule would make Increase Reflexes weaker if you have boosts to Reaction and Intuition already, since you cap the Initiative increase from it at (8 - increases to Reaction and Intuition) instead of just at 8.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (17:32:57/09-22-13)
I think his point is that this house rule would make Increase Reflexes weaker if you have boosts to Reaction and Intuition already, since you cap the Initiative increase from it at (8 - increases to Reaction and Intuition) instead of just at 8.
Yes, it would be somewhat weaker if you had other spells already cast and sustained affecting Reaction and Intuition. You would, of course, still get the extra initiative dice.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:48:49/09-22-13)
What about someone with Reaction Augmentations? How would Increase Reflexes work with that?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (18:00:21/09-22-13)
Sorry, I forgot to include the last adjustment above, namely that anything (other than drugs) that provided an increase to Initiative Dice would have any static rider bonus changed to an increase in initiative rather than reaction (basically, those would all work like the Increase Reflexes spell). Yes, I know this would reduce the utility of a bit of cyber/bio (but would benefit from not adding to the augment cap to reaction so the initiative boost gained from Reaction Enhancers (derived from +Reaction) would automatically stack with the initiative bonus from Wired Reflexes (although total max cap of 8 ).

Drugs are special snowflakes under my rules. :)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Rythymhack on (18:04:45/09-22-13)
It seems a whole lot simpler to just state that all initiative enhancers stack as long as two things happen. The cunulative bonus to reaction acn not exceed +4 (thereby reinforcing the already existing augmented max) and the total number of initiative dice can not exceed +3 (making the best possible bonus +4 reac +3dice). This leaves room for usinf edge to go first.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (18:13:06/09-22-13)
I'd not let the dice stack myself, aside from Improved&Increased Reflexes + Drugs, and not let boosts to Reaction stack. But if someone has SB3+IncRef8, I'd give them +3 Rea, +8+4d6 (on top of Rea+Int+1d6). Makes little sense to penalize the +Rea+Initiative augmentations compared to +Rea augmentations when it comes to combining with IncRef.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (18:55:42/09-22-13)
It seems a whole lot simpler to just state that all initiative enhancers stack as long as two things happen. The cunulative bonus to reaction acn not exceed +4 (thereby reinforcing the already existing augmented max) and the total number of initiative dice can not exceed +3 (making the best possible bonus +4 reac +3dice). This leaves room for usinf edge to go first.
Why cap at 4D6? VR and Increase Reflexes mention the 5D6 cap, so this would basically nerf those things.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Rythymhack on (19:14:38/09-22-13)
Still waiting on my book. That being said, my logic was this...wired reflexes, synaptic boosters and the adept equivelent (forgot name off the top of my head) all cap out at +3d6. This makes a character's initiative (#)+4d6. The only instance of 5d6 total I have heard of was if you spent edge to go first. If everything stacks within those parameters, the (assumed) effect is that you can get creative in HOW you reach those caps without breaking the game. Also, spending edge to go first should remain special. Also I am just trying to throw out a (seems to me) simple solution (that admittedly does not take into accout wireless boni).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Rythymhack on (19:18:39/09-22-13)
But it now occurs to me that allowing improved reflexes 1, synaptic boosters1 and wired reflexes 1 to stack with eachother (even within those limits) may have some balance issues that I haven't thought of.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Veggiesama on (00:11:52/09-23-13)
And these little arguments are exactly why there needs to be a subforum for house rules.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: chromeburner on (13:34:06/09-26-13)
I want to start by saying that I love the setting and mystique of Shadowrun. Its probably one of the best, if not the best renditions of the cyberpunk genre out there. That said, I've played several sessions of Shadowrun 5e and at every turn it feels like the rules are getting in the way of experiencing that world. The players spend time planning only to find out that their depth of tactical choice is narrow, or we have to spend five to ten minutes resolving a group of mooks shooting someone. Time and again there are breaks in my player's and my own immersion because the rules are so weird. Lethality has been amped up, but its for the sake of making a "grittier game" rather than using it as the tool it can be. Rules still require a ton of cross-referencing, often with contradictory results--this creates a phenominally high barrier for entry.

Indeed.  I'm quite shocked and disappointed at how little the game improved from 4th edition.  Beyond the changes to the matrix, very little actually got any better .   I'm going to run your house rules past my group and see if they'll fly.  Thanks.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: deek on (22:51:44/10-05-13)
I'd say combat is much improved over 4A.  You have the return of the initiative score dictating IPs in a Combat Turn. The whole environmental modifiers table is streamlined, so figuring our modifiers is much quicker. Just those two things make a world of difference in the combats going on in my 5e sessions.

I started in a hybrid 1e/2e game years (decades?) ago, skipped 3e and jumped back in for 4/4A and now 5e and I certainly like the latest ruleset the most.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Cyber-Dave on (17:56:47/10-06-13)
For the most part, I am pretty happy to use the RAW (with errata). But, there is one area of the rules that is totally broken right now. In order to fix that area of the rules, I would use the following house rules:

When a target is unaware of an attack, then no defense is possible. This does not automatically apply to defenders who are already engaged in combat. In such situations, the target must make an individual surprise check. On a failure they suffer the effects of surprise.

Meanwhile, if a character has 100% cover, the attack always hits the cover first.

Finally, when using burst fire or autofire against a surprised enemy, the benefits of burst fire/autofire change. Divide the penalty that would normally be applied to your target's defense roll by 2 (rounding one half up and one half down), expressed as a positive number.  Use the value (rounded down) as a bonus to your attack dice; additionally, use the value (rounded up) as a bonus to your accuracy rating.

Those three house rules pretty much get the game working as I desire.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (05:54:22/10-13-13)
I have trouble with the Spell Drain options in the game.  While I made my character a Hermetic, it was only because I saw my Logic as being more important than my Charisma, but with the way I visualize and explained my character, Logic doesn't make sense... and neither does Charisma.  As a matter of fact, Charisma no longer makes sense for Shamans even, since they don't have Mentor Spirits.  So, while I'd allow players to use Intuition for Shamans, a stat that seems far more appropriate for their theme, I wanted to build a quick optional Tradition based a bit on my old 3e version of the same Tradition (found on my old 3e website: http://www.i-sphynx.com/Shadowrun).  Thoughts (leaving out the fluff since I'd hope everyone knows what a Psionicist is suppose to be :P)?

Psionicist
[spoiler]
Psionicist are created using the same rules as members of the Hermetic and Shamanic traditions, however they are self-restricted by their own uneducated view of the ways of magic.  They rely on intuition and self discovery to expand their knowledge of the power that courses through them.  As such, Psionicists are restricted in their forms of magic, unable to use Ritual Magic, Enchanting, or Artificing.  They also do not link any Element with School of Magic, since all their Schools of Magic are linked directly to the Mind.  This does however grant them the ability to summon Mind Spirits which appear, and act, as extensions of their own persona.  As a matter of fact, the similarities are so precise that it requires a minimum of 3 hits on an Assensing Test to identify which is the Spirit and which is the Psionicist.. 

Drain: Intuition + Willpower

Spirits of the Mind
BARSWLICEdgeEssM
F-2F+2F+2F-2FFFFF/2FF
Initiative: F*2 + 2d6
Astral Initiative: F*2 + 3d6
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers: Astral Form, Materialization, Sapience, Search
Optional Powers: Concealment, Confusion, Fear, Psyhokinesis
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (06:01:30/10-13-13)
If I were you, I'd just convert one of the traditions from Street Magic, and maybe one or two of the SM spirits.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:51:17/10-13-13)
You made it sound like your problem is the combination of character/tradition flavor and drainstats, which Street Magic is a great answer to in SR4. It has quite a number of different traditions for each of the three drain stats.

If you're simply trying to convert Psionics from 3e, what is your approach to flavor-ties? With the normal traditions, you can only get support to your own magic from the right type of spirits, so you can't use the same spirit type to help you with for example Health and Combat spells. How would that work with this one?

I did a check in Street Magic and they don't really have stats for the Psionics "flawed understanding of magic being gradually eroded by its own inability to explain many of the everyday realities and accept the fundamental conventions of modern thaumaturgy", so I guess it's not possible to do an SR4->SR5 conversion of them.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (08:19:12/10-13-13)
Fair enough on theme, I should have linked my character instead of assuming everyone had seen it.  He believes himself to be a Psionic because he's untrained.

As for magic support, I suppose that would be another limitation, spirits not helping (which would also be thematic since you don't see them as spirits but as an extension of yourself). 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (14:45:12/10-13-13)
Well, the first round of house rules was agreed on by my group.

We've gotten rid of the limit of one attack action per phase.  Wasn't causing a problem in the last 4 editions,

We don't apply the reduced defense modifier per multiple attack to targets with heavy cover.  We also don't apply due to certain certain attacks: attackers uncoordinated with each other, or attacks that score no successes on the to hit test at all.  We're contemplating an ability or at least an Adept power to ignore multiple attacker modifiers to defense--seems very appropriate for at least melle combat, to simulate the super agile martial artists who can fight multiple opponents without simply being stomepd to mud by untrained thugs.

Successes over limits apply, simply one extra success per 3 net hits over the limit.  We may lower that to 2 in the future, or discard limits altogether, but were taking this in steps.

We're contemplating modifying how you take cover--making it a free action, or keeping it at a simple action, but you remain in cover as long as you stay in place, or move within the same covering item/position.  This is only if the cover is the type that needs to be closely adhered to, or the enemy has a superior position.  If it is naturally intervening without any needed action by the player, it applies a modifier without the need for a simple action.

I'm looking at limiting reagent use to the characters Magic attribute.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (15:17:28/10-13-13)
Well, the first round of house rules was agreed on by my group.

We've gotten rid of the limit of one attack action per phase.  Wasn't causing a problem in the last 4 editions,

We don't apply the reduced defense modifier per multiple attack to targets with heavy cover.  We also don't apply due to certain certain attacks: attackers uncoordinated with each other, or attacks that score no successes on the to hit test at all.  We're contemplating an ability or at least an Adept power to ignore multiple attacker modifiers to defense--seems very appropriate for at least melle combat, to simulate the super agile martial artists who can fight multiple opponents without simply being stomepd to mud by untrained thugs.

Successes over limits apply, simply one extra success per 3 net hits over the limit.  We may lower that to 2 in the future, or discard limits altogether, but were taking this in steps.

We're contemplating modifying how you take cover--making it a free action, or keeping it at a simple action, but you remain in cover as long as you stay in place, or move within the same covering item/position.  This is only if the cover is the type that needs to be closely adhered to, or the enemy has a superior position.  If it is naturally intervening without any needed action by the player, it applies a modifier without the need for a simple action.

I'm looking at limiting reagent use to the characters Magic attribute.

You might consider applying the Physical Limit to Defense Tests as well. If the attack roll is held to a Limit, then the defense roll should be as well.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:57:28/10-13-13)
Honestly I think it's a really bad move to make. You're slowing combat down again and risk ruining the balance between gunbunnies on one hand and spellcasters+melee characters on the other. With melee adepts no longer by far exceeding the damage of guns and direct combat spells nerfed down in damage, taking away their equality in attack-opportunities might make them far from combat-capable.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Crunch on (18:08:15/10-13-13)
I agree with Michael here. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (20:42:26/10-13-13)
Honestly I think it's a really bad move to make. You're slowing combat down again and risk ruining the balance between gunbunnies on one hand and spellcasters+melee characters on the other. With melee adepts no longer by far exceeding the damage of guns and direct combat spells nerfed down in damage, taking away their equality in attack-opportunities might make them far from combat-capable.

Like I said, I haven't had a problem with it for all of the prior editions of the game. More importantly the players didn't the change either.  NPC's get to use it as well.  Given how fast recoil penalties build up, gun bunnies do other things fairly often anyway.  Mages have been doing well anyway, and have taken to indirect spells like ducks to water, as mana spells are outpaced even under the standard rules.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (21:27:12/10-13-13)
I'm just saying, if the entire game system is balanced around a combination of changes, reverting one of them has severe consequences. If you want to revert back to old editions, it's an all-or-nothing deal if you do not want to eliminate entire archetypes from the game. And if the system changes, what felt right before may no longer be balanced. If it's a risk you're willing to take, that's fine, but it's not good to turn a blind eye to the consequences of a houserule, unless you live in Egypt.

Besides, why did you houserule this change? Did the players really feel it was limiting them too much, did they dislike having to make tactical choices, did they feel mages and brawlers got to attack too often compared to them, were they simply missing getting to destroy their enemies without a single chance for the opponents to get back, or was there another reason for them to not want the 1 attack action per phase rule? Because let's face it, everyone knows "it was no problem in the previous editions" isn't a proper argument, so clearly there must have been something else going on that made your entire group uncomfortable about the new rules. Were they perhaps turned off by the increased lethality in play, resulting in their characters being in too much danger even against weak opponents? I'm curious as to what the problem was that you felt you had to resolve with such a houserule with such severe consequences.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (01:00:18/10-14-13)
If you want to revert back to old editions, it's an all-or-nothing deal if you do not want to eliminate entire archetypes from the game.

Kinds of a odd statement in a forum on house rules--if you change one rule, you may as well play the old edition? Since..well, RPG's have existed, GM's and players have tinkered with systems.


Quote
And if the system changes, what felt right before may no longer be balanced. If it's a risk you're willing to take, that's fine, but it's not good to turn a blind eye to the consequences of a houserule, unless you live in Egypt.

Certainly--if the rule adaptation isn't working well for the game, then we go back, or revise it.

Quote
Besides, why did you houserule this change?

Like every other house rule-I (and my players) didn't like the change between editions. We understood the intent, but didn't agree with the implementation.

 
Quote
Did the players really feel it was limiting them too much, did they dislike having to make tactical choices

I'd be happy to discuss the subject, but could you refrain from insulting my players?

Quote
Because let's face it, everyone knows "it was no problem in the previous editions" isn't a proper argument
,

Really? "If its not broke, don't fix it" isn't a idea worth discussing? As I said, my group didn't not find a problem with the number of possible attacks per action for characters to be a problem before, and feel there's more than enough reasons for players to choose to do other actions as well without a straight out rule.

 Were they perhaps turned off by the increased lethality in play, resulting in their characters being in too much danger even against weak opponents?

Actually, they enjoy the gritty nature of combat, and have been very appreciative that, unless you are really designed to soak damage like the tank archetype, its far better to never be shot at in the first place, and its far better to make successful defense tests than hope to resist damage.  And even with the change, take aim actions were very common in our last game, or other actions to take cover, ready items, or do helpful things--heck, the way recoil works in this game is going to do a great deal in making the gun bunnies take a pause on its own.

 Players realized that attacking twice has consequences--strict rules play, they can't even take cover without using a simple action.  There was lots of 'getup from behind object, fire, free action to drop prone) type actions going on.  Firing anything automatic means significant penalties build up rather quickly when double-firing.  As I'm very strict on just how much you can communicate with a free action, lots of simple actions are used for an additional free action to communicate, or observe in detail, then communicate. But as a group, we like the option existing for a player to really go on the offensive if they feel it is worth it.

Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (01:11:02/10-14-13)
Heck, since you didn't say you made melee attacks complex actions again, may I assume that those melee warriors are making two attacks now too (in passes after they've closed of course)?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (01:23:40/10-14-13)
Heck, since you didn't say you made melee attacks complex actions again, may I assume that those melee warriors are making two attacks now too (in passes after they've closed of course)?

Just one. We've only got one melee character, and he isn't complaining. He tends to shoot one action, swing the axe the next phase as part of the recoil cool down cycle. He's a honking big troll with a big axe, so what get hits tends to go away, or be so hurt as to not be much of a threat.  We do have a new player joining who is doing a melee specialist, so I'll be carefully scrutinizing his performance to see if our house rule will stand, or if some other change has to be made.

The axe wielding troll has made multiple attack actions though; splitting the dice pool sounds bad, but you don't have to split that hefty reach factor, so laying down the multiple strokes in one attack has been very effective for him.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (01:29:33/10-14-13)
Heck, since you didn't say you made melee attacks complex actions again, may I assume that those melee warriors are making two attacks now too (in passes after they've closed of course)?

Just one. We've only got one melee character, and he isn't complaining. He tends to shoot one action, swing the axe the next phase as part of the recoil cool down cycle. He's a honking big troll with a big axe, so what get hits tends to go away, or be so hurt as to not be much of a threat.  We do have a new player joining who is doing a melee specialist, so I'll be carefully scrutinizing his performance to see if our house rule will stand, or if some other change has to be made.

The axe wielding troll has made multiple attack actions though; splitting the dice pool sounds bad, but you don't have to split that hefty reach factor, so laying down the multiple strokes in one attack has been very effective for him.

You might still consider more than one attack for him (keeping the Simple action attacks from the new edition). Really, making melee able to attack twice without the splitting stuff (splitting being more than one attack with one action, so basically a possibility of melee and ranged getting 4 with split) would have been better than just limiting everyone to 1 attack.

I'd still advise applying Physical Limit to defense rolls. It ain't right for attack to have a Limit and defense--normally--not to.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (14:18:20/10-15-13)
Well, I finally received our Character Creation rules from my GM, and thought I'd post one that I think should be canonical.  :P  He realized the same thing I did it seems, that playing a Mystic Adept, regardless of the PP cost in karma, is overpowered.  Originally he decided that he would just ban Mystic Adepts altogether, but after some discussion, the following is his current ruling.

Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.

He also House Ruled that Aspected begin the game knowing a number of Spells equal to their Magic *2, which makes Aspected something of interest to play suddenly.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: martinchaen on (14:27:39/10-15-13)
I like the idea of allowing melee attacks as simple actions; hell, even spells can be reckless cast. I'd probably allow the same for Sprinting, too, but keep the max 1 attack action per combat turn, regardless of source bit.

Personally, the idea that if I have to sprint to reach my target I can no longer attack if I charge them is somewhat ludicrous. The current rules can end up producing weird results like a character sprinting to charge his target in one round, only to have the target move just 2m away so the character has to make another sprint test, precluding an attack action.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (14:42:12/10-15-13)
Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.

Might as well ban them outright with that, since that makes them even less of a usable option than the contradictory FAQ interpretation did in the previous edition.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (17:15:26/10-15-13)
Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.

Might as well ban them outright with that, since that makes them even less of a usable option than the contradictory FAQ interpretation did in the previous edition.

GM thought similarly, but personally, I want to play one so I can Metamagic some Power Points.  That's the only advantage to playing one, in that you can learn Adept powers in-game, something I want to do.  As stated, originally he intended to just ban them, but getting power points in-game makes them not broken.  :P
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (18:27:15/10-15-13)


You might still consider more than one attack for him (keeping the Simple action attacks from the new edition). Really, making melee able to attack twice without the splitting stuff (splitting being more than one attack with one action, so basically a possibility of melee and ranged getting 4 with split) would have been better than just limiting everyone to 1 attack.

I'd still advise applying Physical Limit to defense rolls. It ain't right for attack to have a Limit and defense--normally--not to.

If Strength wasn't such a huge component of physical limits, I'd consider it. Having a clumsy big brute be more defensive in potential than a super agile character troubles me, so I'm not going to impose limits on those tests.  I think I'll mention the  simple action on physicals to the group.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (18:52:19/10-15-13)
Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.
Might as well ban them outright with that, since that makes them even less of a usable option than the contradictory FAQ interpretation did in the previous edition.
As someone who was on the "MAs are overpowered" train from the start until the hot patch errata, I agree with A4BG that "no Power Points at chargen" is a totally ridiculous thing that makes MAs pretty much useless.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (20:15:41/10-15-13)
Mystic Adepts may not purchase Power Points at character creation.  They may however, buy Astral Perception at a cost of 5 Karma at character creation.
Might as well ban them outright with that, since that makes them even less of a usable option than the contradictory FAQ interpretation did in the previous edition.
As someone who was on the "MAs are overpowered" train from the start until the hot patch errata, I agree with A4BG that "no Power Points at chargen" is a totally ridiculous thing that makes MAs pretty much useless.

And if he and I are in agreement on the matter, that tells just how bad an idea it is.

Now, if you'll excuse me...

*runs off to go check the Hell Thermometer as it must have frozen over*
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (20:49:33/10-15-13)
I agree with A4BG that "no Power Points at chargen" is a totally ridiculous thing that makes MAs pretty much useless.

Useless? Really?

By the same argument, would you consider a build useless if they built a MA by RAW and used their starting karma for stats and qualities rather than PP?  The can still cast and conjure just fine.

Limiting them to no PP at chargen makes the comparison to Full Mages really, really easy.  So is the lack of projection and 5 karma is too much to pay for the ability to take PP at initiation?  I'll concede that the price might be a bit high; I would have given them perception for free, and let them initiate at chargen, but the ability to buy PP is no small thing.  There's still a lot of cool combinations that you can make with only a couple PP. 

Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Rythymhack on (21:16:22/10-15-13)
What about those of us that prefer to play as an Adept who happens to have a few spells? The change to no PP at chargen screws us.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (23:08:36/10-15-13)
I agree with A4BG that "no Power Points at chargen" is a totally ridiculous thing that makes MAs pretty much useless.

Useless? Really?

In terms of the fact that they gain absolutely zero benefit at chargen from being a Mystic Adept?  Incontestably.

Mystic Adepts are more or less good where they are now - people who think they're broken are generally not considering the full picture.  Mystic Adepts are better for being a "Mage/..." (Mage/Face, for example), while full Mages are better for being full Mages (due to being able to spend all of their Karma on things that make them a better mage, yielding a sizeable and measurable edge from chargen on).  That is how it should be.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (10:39:41/10-16-13)
Well, first of all I am not opposed to where Mystic Adepts are now, but I think "useless" is too strong a word for that player and a character who can cast an conjure as well as a full mage.  He has just traded off some of his astral abilities in exchange for another path to upgrade his ability. 

Lots of characters are built with the idea that "I'll do this or that as soon as I get my first few karma".  And since those changes will be in effect for 90-95% of the characters career, I don't see why they should be dismissed out of hand.

Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (13:04:33/10-16-13)
Lots of characters are built with the idea that "I'll do this or that as soon as I get my first few karma".  And since those changes will be in effect for 90-95% of the characters career, I don't see why they should be dismissed out of hand.

I have never seen a character built in which the player "waited until after the first few karma" to get the primary reason to play a particular character type. Having spells and adept powers both is the whole reason to play a Mystic Adept.

It's like waiting until later to buy a Decker his cyber-deck, or waiting until later to buy the Street Sam Pistoleer his first pistol.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: martinchaen on (13:31:52/10-16-13)
Having to wait to buy a deck is perfectly possible with Street Level rules, just saying...

I do agree that limiting Mystic Adepts in that fashion seems way harsh.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (15:32:00/10-16-13)
I have never seen a character built in which the player "waited until after the first few karma" to get the primary reason to play a particular character type. Having spells and adept powers both is the whole reason to play a Mystic Adept.

It's like waiting until later to buy a Decker his cyber-deck, or waiting until later to buy the Street Sam Pistoleer his first pistol.

There are LOTS of character concepts that require more resources than you get in character creation and his character is just one of them.  If his concept only requires a few power points, then he's not really nerfed that much by his GMs ruling.  Heck, he's even getting a discount on astral perception at only 5 karma. 

Your examples are a bit extreme, since the main schtick of the characters is clearly his spellcasting and conjuring, not his powerpoints.  That's a far cry from the utility a Decker gets from a deck or a pistolier gets from his first pistol.  This guys power points are an accessory to his main schtick.  He has paid for that privilege of getting that accessory and is willing to wait a short while to get it.

I see no terrible flaws in his character concept.  He is playing within his GMs rules and has begun with the end in mind and that just makes good sense.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (15:37:24/10-16-13)
I see no terrible flaws in his character concept.  He is playing within his GMs rules and has begun with the end in mind and that just makes good sense.

No, there isn't anything wrong with his character. There IS however something wrong with his GM's ridiculous house rule.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (15:39:51/10-16-13)
Well, I can't really disagree with you there, I was just defending the guy making lemonade with the lemons he was given.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (14:56:05/10-17-13)
It's not a ridiculous house rule at all.  When the 6 of us drew up our character concepts (and we are, admittedly, a bit heavy handed on the min-maxxing), 4 of us made Mystic Adepts.  Who would play a Mage or Aspected?  Access and purchase of Power Points far outweighs Astral Projection.  Not so much if the Power Points come much later of course.

And just because you may "want" both Power Points and Spells, doesn't mean you should get them.  We had a guy wanting to be a Techno/Mage or Techno/Adept...  Those aren't options.  Saying "No Mystic Adepts" or as we converted to "No Mystic Adepts with starting Power Points" is a logical and acceptable House Rule.  Nothing ridiculous at all about it.  o.O
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (15:01:49/10-17-13)
It's not a ridiculous house rule at all.  When the 6 of us drew up our character concepts (and we are, admittedly, a bit heavy handed on the min-maxxing), 4 of us made Mystic Adepts.  Who would play a Mage or Aspected?  Access and purchase of Power Points far outweighs Astral Projection.  Not so much if the Power Points come much later of course.

And just because you may "want" both Power Points and Spells, doesn't mean you should get them.  We had a guy wanting to be a Techno/Mage or Techno/Adept...  Those aren't options.  Saying "No Mystic Adepts" or as we converted to "No Mystic Adepts with starting Power Points" is a logical and acceptable House Rule.  Nothing ridiculous at all about it.  o.O

No, it is quite ridiculous, as it, like the complaints from certain quarters about them under the printed costs, is based entirely around what a munchkin may or may not do. This is not a reason for inclusion of a house rule, nor is it a reason to change something in the system. The same applies to what people are saying in another thread about Aspected.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (15:20:25/10-17-13)
Yes it is reason, of course it's reason.  House Rules are very much about controlling what a munchkin may or may not do (and "change something in the system" would be House ruling, it's the same thing).  Quit trying to define the definition and reasoning for House Rules across a global area.  Ridiculous for you doesn't make it ridiculous.  And I still believe it's a fantastic idea globally, though unlike you, I won't try to impress that belief onto others through derogatory insinuations.

Besides, is there anything preventing the Mystic Adept, with this House Rule, from getting Power Points with their 25-50 (or 35-70 even for Prime Runners).  Couldn't you start with 3 (or 4) Power Points via Karma?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (15:26:12/10-17-13)
Besides, is there anything preventing the Mystic Adept, with this House Rule, from getting Power Points with their 25-50 (or 35-70 even for Prime Runners).  Couldn't you start with 3 (or 4) Power Points via Karma?

Then you didn't even read the house rule that is being called ridiculous, as the one that posted it clearly stated that the house rule was the Mystic Adepts could not gain any Power Points in character generation (they already have to buy them with karma and the house rule is that they may not purchase them with karma).


Heck, you made the post. Did you forget what you typed?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (15:29:51/10-17-13)
You're right, it did... the question was a serious question though, I do not know if Mystic Adepts actually can buy Initiation at char-gen.  The reason I ask is because our GM clearly indicated that the 2 (or 5) karma cost is not allowed, something I didn't elaborate on because I don't know if Initiation is allowed at char-gen or not.  To me, his saying we can't buy power points at 2 karma a piece pretty much means/meant that we couldn't buy Power Points...  I was all ready to make an aspected until I just in the past few minutes, realized that maybe I could Initiate my Adept for power points.  :P
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (15:36:50/10-17-13)
You're right, it did... the question was a serious question though, I do not know if Mystic Adepts actually can buy Initiation at char-gen.  The reason I ask is because our GM clearly indicated that the 2 (or 5) karma cost is not allowed, something I didn't elaborate on because I don't know if Initiation is allowed at char-gen or not.  To me, his saying we can't buy power points at 2 karma a piece pretty much means/meant that we couldn't buy Power Points...  I was all ready to make an aspected until I just in the past few minutes, realized that maybe I could Initiate my Adept for power points.  :P

No, you can't Initiate in character generation. Can't remember where it was said, but I do remember that they clarified that somewhere.

Much as I hate it because the munchkins' activities shouldn't screw over those who don't abuse the frak out of everything they can, they did change the karma cost to 5, and made it so that Initiation for the Power Point 'meta-magic' is the only way to get more. With that house rule, it would be the SIXTH Initiation before a Mystic on Priority A to get what they should be able to attain in Power Points in generation (Fourth Initiation for Priority B Mystics).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (15:53:44/10-17-13)
Hmmm, can't find that clarification anywhere.  Just people assuming that because it's not listed in the chargen area, it's not allowed. 

And yeah, I realize it'd be the 6th Initiation.  Considering you're a full-fledge Mage minus Astral Projection, that seems pretty balanced.  if I were my GM, I think my house rule would have likely limited the magic ability (perhaps only sorcery or conjuring) and a choice of either starting out with the ability to buy Power Points, or some starting spells.  I also don't "like" the House Rule, I just think it's fair.  I admit, I took Adept over full Mage purely to get the 3.5PP Initiative boost.  I have no interest in being a Mystic Adept and would just 'play' it like a superior Quickening of a spell.  :P  Now I either have to wait 70 karma later for level 4 initiation, or quicken it 13+karmaboost karma later after I learn the spell. Comes out about the same in the long run, and as a Mystic Adept, I can consider conjuring at least...  Anyhows, I'm afraid I've derailed this thread too much.  I'll start a new thread if anyone wants to continue this run of discussion.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (16:41:24/10-17-13)
Much as I hate it because the munchkins' activities shouldn't screw over those who don't abuse the frak out of everything they can, they did change the karma cost to 5, and made it so that Initiation for the Power Point 'meta-magic' is the only way to get more. With that house rule, it would be the SIXTH Initiation before a Mystic on Priority A to get what they should be able to attain in Power Points in generation (Fourth Initiation for Priority B Mystics).
And if that Priority B Mystic Adept uses 2 special attribute points from their Metatype Priority to boost their starting Magic to 6, it's 6 Initiations again.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:00:57/10-17-13)
Bull stated it: No initiation/submerging at chargen.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (03:07:50/10-18-13)
Michael, unless Bull has a page reference or Errata, he stated an opinion, not a rule. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (03:10:11/10-18-13)
Michael, unless Bull has a page reference or Errata, he stated an opinion, not a rule.

Bull is a developer, so it is in fact rule.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gryphynx (Sphynx) on (03:16:57/10-18-13)
Not until it's in the Errata it isn't.  The rules are written, not distributed through hear-say on some forum.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (03:47:38/10-18-13)
Not until it's in the Errata it isn't.  The rules are written, not distributed through hear-say on some forum.

The intent of the writers is relevant.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (04:26:52/10-18-13)
Page 7 and only about 7 houserules listed so far!   I'm exaggerating of course. (at least I think I am :/ )  I really wish there was a houserule subforum.  :P

Who wants to read a new houserule?   

I've talked to several people who wish there were something more creative than bricking for Hackers to do, so I decided to come up with some interesting alternatives.  Let me know what you think.

JudasGun: Complex Action, 2 Marks, Target: Enemy Smartgun
Test: Hacking + Intuition [Sleaze] vs Logic + Firewall 
This subversion projects the firing arc of the weapon into the AR display of its target enabling more effective defensive action. Hits versus the target smartgun become a bonus to defense against any attacks made by the compromised smartgun.  If you have 3 marks on the target Smartgun, this action only requires a simple action.

ARO Distraction:  Complex Action, 1 Mark, Targets: AR equipped enemies
Test: Hacking + Logic [Data Processing] vs Intuition + Firewall
This action utilizes all the best tricks of ARO spammers out there... all at the same time.  Visual and audio distractions flood AR displays as the targets firewalls are overwhelmed with seemingly legitimate ARO display requests.  Net hits become a visibility modifier until the target reboots or takes the Full Matrix Defense Action which clears their display.  This exploit may be used against multiple targets simultaneously.  If you have only a single target or you have 2 marks on all the targets, this action only requires a simple action.

Cycle Matrix ID: Complex Action, Owner, Target: Device
Test: Electronic Warfare + Logic [Data Processing] vs Willpower + Firewall
Typically used by Riggers whose drones are under attack by a Decker, this action scrambles the Matrix ID of the device momentarily in order to throw off marks.  If your net hits achieve a threshold equal to the number of marks on the device, the all marks (from that persona) are erased without rebooting.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Noble Drake on (04:27:51/10-18-13)
Michael, unless Bull has a page reference or Errata, he stated an opinion, not a rule.
That is a shortsighted view to hold.

Bull's statement clarifies that the rules not listing initiation or submersion on the Additional Purchases & Restrictions table on page 98, and the text on the same page only referring to the Character Advancement section on page 103 in the specific context of raising attributes and skills - the rules effectively not saying "you are allowed to initiate or submerge at character creation" - means that you cannot do those things.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: DigitalZombie on (05:49:10/10-18-13)
@FasterN8 well Ive updated my houserules on page 2, so there are a lot now:)
I think your first 2 matrix trix are cool, Im likely gonna use those myself :) as for the third, Im not sure you should roll against the opponents firewall. Wouldnt it more fitting to roll against his attack/sleaze (whatever was used to put on the last mark)? I dunno it seems to be pretty powerful.

Not until it's in the Errata it isn't.  The rules are written, not distributed through hear-say on some forum.
I agree, although I also agree with the others that initiaton/submerging isnt allowed at char gen. Its nice of Bull to mention his opinion on the matter, but that doesnt make it RAW, he might even disagree with other developers and be the minority regarding those opinions.
I personally wouldnt have a problem with a rigger technomancer submerging to get the ability to jump in his drones at char gen.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (09:39:19/10-18-13)
Bull doesn't state his opinion. Claiming that when he makes such a statement it is merely an opinion is rather a rude thing to say. He can be wrong, yes. But he is not presenting an opinion as a fact. The only opinion he presented on the matter was that he'd allow it at his games.

If you don't like the rule, change it. But don't mix up statements and opinions, and don't try to dodge out of a rule.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (10:27:26/10-18-13)
@FasterN8 well I've updated my houserules on page 2, so there are a lot now:)
I think your first 2 matrix trix are cool, I'm likely gonna use those myself :) as for the third, I'm not sure you should roll against the opponents firewall. Wouldn't it more fitting to roll against his attack/sleaze (whatever was used to put on the last mark)? I dunno it seems to be pretty powerful.

It may very well be too powerful, but that's why I've got you guys to sanity check it for me.  I just wanted some ways for the Rigger to be able to protect himself against the Ddecker, although with the very high damage potential of DataSpike, I'm not sure if any of these things will offer any advantage over simply bricking your opponents electronics.

The reasoning for the Firewall defense was that the mark (after it's placed) represents a certain amount of authority to do stuff on the target device/icon.  Revoking those permissions seemed like it would be defended by the Firewall, but I could go with another interpretation too.

Here's another one for the Rigger, but it's pretty labor intensive since he has to constantly work on it to keep his guys hidden.

Hide Networks: Complex Action, 2 Marks, Target: Allies PAN
Test: Electronic Warfare + Logic [Data Processing]
The Rigger uses the processing of his RCC to redirect and obfuscate the Matrix connection of himself and his team.  Hits on the test become the Sleaze attribute of the Target for defense tests until the next combat turn.  PANs hidden in this way take up a drone slot.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lobo on (09:01:48/10-20-13)
@Faster,

I like ARO distraction - may put that in my game :)

For Judasgun, my only "problem" with using it from a balance standpoint is that (as you said in your last post) it is just worse than bricking the gun.

If I already have 2 marks on the target, then if I attack it, odds are with the extra +4 DV (not to mention any other programs I am running to increase damage), I can simply brick the gun and be done with it.

I do like that it is a Sleaze action, and will allow deckers who specialize in Sleaze over Attack a different option.

The only other problem you will run into is someone (like the mage in my game) who refuses to interact with AR - then it won't help them at all - although that's just their problem :)


Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (09:12:24/10-20-13)
@Faster,

I like ARO distraction - may put that in my game :)

For Judasgun, my only "problem" with using it from a balance standpoint is that (as you said in your last post) it is just worse than bricking the gun.

If I already have 2 marks on the target, then if I attack it, odds are with the extra +4 DV (not to mention any other programs I am running to increase damage), I can simply brick the gun and be done with it.

Yeah that's true.  The redeeming feature of JudasGun is that the effect is not immediately apparent to the shooter. So while the enemy may just switch to a backup if you brick his gun, he'll continue to use his "JudasGun", but after a while may start to wonder why everyone he shots is SO jumpy when he's about to pull the trigger.

Plus you can compromise the guards guns before the fight begins.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: DMK on (15:25:29/10-24-13)
I've been giving some thought as to what I'd do should I end up running SR5 (which I'm considering doing; probably a Missions adventure as a one-shot.)

A few things come to mind:

1) Technomancer: Priority A: Resonance Skill Group @ 5, 7 Complex Forms. Priority B: Resonance Skill Group @4, 5 Complex Forms. Priority C: 3 Complex Forms

2) Aspected Magician: Priority B: Magic 6, One Magical Skill Group @ 6; Priority C: Magic 4, One Magical Skill Group @ 4. Priority D: Magic 2, One Magical Skill Group @ 2.

3) Magical Adepts: Go with the Missions Hot Patch, basically.

4) Change the Program Submersion so that you get [Submersion Grade] programs, and allow you to buy the Submersion twice (for (2x [Submersion Grade]) programs.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bach_The_Fox on (22:23:39/10-24-13)
Considering a house rule for reagents, wanted to get some input on its fairness and any unintended consequences.

Rule: When used for Spellcasting, Reagents may only increase the limit of a spell  by double the force.

Reasoning: Casting and sustaining level 1 spells (particularly  w/Spell Foci, but also with Focused Concentration) using reagents to up the limit is not appropriately costed. It's trivial in terms of nuyen, karma, and drain to get bonuses that Street Sams or Adepts would have to expend half of their resources for. Additionally, the only limit to how many different types of bonuses they can get is also limited only by the spells he chooses to learn and sustain, without the limiting factor of essence or power points. This rule allows mages to continue to do this, but forces them to cast them at moderate forces to get good bonuses, which increases the risk of drain and how many they can have sustained at once.

I think if this limit was in the main book, no one would have batted an eye.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (22:46:36/10-24-13)
I agree that reagent limits are practical. One force 14 Fireball resisted as if it were a force 4 convinced me of that.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (22:53:21/10-24-13)
I agree that reagent limits are practical. One force 14 Fireball resisted as if it were a force 4 convinced me of that.

Don't reagents just change the limit, having no effect on other force-dependent aspects (IE, the base damage or radius of a Fireball)?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bach_The_Fox on (22:58:30/10-24-13)
I agree that reagent limits are practical. One force 14 Fireball resisted as if it were a force 4 convinced me of that.

Don't reagents just change the limit, having no effect on other force-dependent aspects (IE, the base damage or radius of a Fireball)?

Yup, they're fine in combat. The hassle of having them ready while you're casting is also a (minor) limiting factor.

He could mean the guy just got 10 successes; easily possible with Edge.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (23:34:04/10-24-13)
I agree that reagent limits are practical. One force 14 Fireball resisted as if it were a force 4 convinced me of that.

Don't reagents just change the limit, having no effect on other force-dependent aspects (IE, the base damage or radius of a Fireball)?

Yup, they're fine in combat. The hassle of having them ready while you're casting is also a (minor) limiting factor.

He could mean the guy just got 10 successes; easily possible with Edge.

If Edge was involved, Reagents wouldn't be.  And a Force 4 Fireball with 10 successes is a LOT less powerful than a Force 14 Fireball with the same.  DV 21 AP -14 versus DV 11 AP -4, having effect over 14 meters instead of 4, and a big difference to the chances for ignition for anything caught inside.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bach_The_Fox on (23:56:27/10-24-13)
I agree that reagent limits are practical. One force 14 Fireball resisted as if it were a force 4 convinced me of that.

Don't reagents just change the limit, having no effect on other force-dependent aspects (IE, the base damage or radius of a Fireball)?

Yup, they're fine in combat. The hassle of having them ready while you're casting is also a (minor) limiting factor.

He could mean the guy just got 10 successes; easily possible with Edge.

If Edge was involved, Reagents wouldn't be.  And a Force 4 Fireball with 10 successes is a LOT less powerful than a Force 14 Fireball with the same.  DV 21 AP -14 versus DV 11 AP -4, having effect over 14 meters instead of 4, and a big difference to the chances for ignition for anything caught inside.

Ah, there isn't a head smack emote nor brain fart one. We'll go with  :-[
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (01:15:27/10-25-13)


If Edge was involved, Reagents wouldn't be.  And a Force 4 Fireball with 10 successes is a LOT less powerful than a Force 14 Fireball with the same.  DV 21 AP -14 versus DV 11 AP -4, having effect over 14 meters instead of 4, and a big difference to the chances for ignition for anything caught inside.

I did phrase that poorly,its really not force 14 with force 4+ 10 net hits;  but the force 4 fireball with 10 reagents and 10 successes ( magic skill, combat specialization, spell focus, aid sorcery) is a heck of a punch. The way we interpreted it, at the time, which I think is in error,  all of the net hits, including the ones to beat the threshold  were added to the damage.
The rationale we used was that the threshold for area spells only determines scatter, not success of the spell, but in further review, that makes for a goofy damage boost between 2 successes and three, so indeed it should have only been 11 DV, not 14. Whoops.

I'm wondering if  a cap on just how many reagents can be blown would be a bit rough on low magic rating casters who need the crutch to get by.  So limiting the high end abuse without hurting the low end would be my concern.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bach_The_Fox on (02:00:32/10-25-13)
Quote
The test is like that for grenades (p. 181):
a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) Test with scatter of 2D6
meters. Unlike grenades, you get to add your net hits on
this test to the Damage Value of the spell, but only if you
beat the threshold

Yeah, net hits would be those over the threshold. So 11DV, AP -4. Rough, but not even as nasty as a grenade.

A low magic mage has a lot of problems; a cap on reagents isn't going to do much one way or the other.  If they have a really low magic, they're going to have a similarly low drain pool and spellcasting pool. Force 1 hurts a bit, but at force 2, they're not getting much more than 4 hits anyways.

Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (03:34:27/10-25-13)


If Edge was involved, Reagents wouldn't be.  And a Force 4 Fireball with 10 successes is a LOT less powerful than a Force 14 Fireball with the same.  DV 21 AP -14 versus DV 11 AP -4, having effect over 14 meters instead of 4, and a big difference to the chances for ignition for anything caught inside.

I did phrase that poorly,its really not force 14 with force 4+ 10 net hits;  but the force 4 fireball with 10 reagents and 10 successes ( magic skill, combat specialization, spell focus, aid sorcery) is a heck of a punch. The way we interpreted it, at the time, which I think is in error,  all of the net hits, including the ones to beat the threshold  were added to the damage.
The rationale we used was that the threshold for area spells only determines scatter, not success of the spell, but in further review, that makes for a goofy damage boost between 2 successes and three, so indeed it should have only been 11 DV, not 14. Whoops.

I'm wondering if  a cap on just how many reagents can be blown would be a bit rough on low magic rating casters who need the crutch to get by.  So limiting the high end abuse without hurting the low end would be my concern.

Per definition, only hits past the threshold count as net hits. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (08:31:13/10-25-13)
By the way, don't forget a caster can use Reagents to restrict the Force of a spell as well. They could overcast a Force 12 Fireball with Reagents to make sure they only score 6 hits max and thus take Stun drain. The drain damage taken doesn't change, though, so they'll likely still go unconscious or be heavily injured for a few hours.

As for the Sustaining Foci trick: Have you considered using a few mana barriers and astrally-perceiving spirits? The downside is, after all, that you have to spend money on every cast, of which some might not roll high enough, and they have to turn it off occasionally to not draw attention. Those are at your disposal as GM without houserules.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Crunch on (08:40:11/10-25-13)
I agree that reagent limits are practical. One force 14 Fireball resisted as if it were a force 4 convinced me of that.

Don't reagents just change the limit, having no effect on other force-dependent aspects (IE, the base damage or radius of a Fireball)?

Yup, they're fine in combat. The hassle of having them ready while you're casting is also a (minor) limiting factor.

He could mean the guy just got 10 successes; easily possible with Edge.

If Edge was involved, Reagents wouldn't be.  And a Force 4 Fireball with 10 successes is a LOT less powerful than a Force 14 Fireball with the same.  DV 21 AP -14 versus DV 11 AP -4, having effect over 14 meters instead of 4, and a big difference to the chances for ignition for anything caught inside.

That's more true of some spells than others, notable direct combat spells benefit from high force less than indirect.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bach_The_Fox on (08:46:24/10-25-13)
By the way, don't forget a caster can use Reagents to restrict the Force of a spell as well. They could overcast a Force 12 Fireball with Reagents to make sure they only score 6 hits max and thus take Stun drain. The drain damage taken doesn't change, though, so they'll likely still go unconscious or be heavily injured for a few hours.

As for the Sustaining Foci trick: Have you considered using a few mana barriers and astrally-perceiving spirits? The downside is, after all, that you have to spend money on every cast, of which some might not roll high enough, and they have to turn it off occasionally to not draw attention. Those are at your disposal as GM without houserules.

Ja, of course. But I don't want to be obnoxious and have them all over the place. There's Astral mages disenchanting too - but I know my players well enough that having that happen too frequently will cause a revolt, heh.

Spirits can't do anything to foci or sustained spells, correct?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (08:55:23/10-25-13)
No, but they can notice them so a Watcher spirit might see someone walking around with sustained spells and give the mage at HQ a headsup something's possiby wrong.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (13:53:18/10-25-13)
By the way, don't forget a caster can use Reagents to restrict the Force of a spell as well. They could overcast a Force 12 Fireball with Reagents to make sure they only score 6 hits max and thus take Stun drain. The drain damage taken doesn't change, though, so they'll likely still go unconscious or be heavily injured for a few hours.

Thank you. I'll save that that for a few NPC's as a last ditch attack.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (13:59:58/10-25-13)
By the way, don't forget a caster can use Reagents to restrict the Force of a spell as well. They could overcast a Force 12 Fireball with Reagents to make sure they only score 6 hits max and thus take Stun drain. The drain damage taken doesn't change, though, so they'll likely still go unconscious or be heavily injured for a few hours.

Thank you. I'll save that that for a few NPC's as a last ditch attack.

...  Dude, that's like a TPK in a can.  If you get the 6 hits, that's DV15, -12AP, plus fire effect, and you can't dodge at all.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (14:02:57/10-25-13)
Of course many NPCs would only have like 4 Magic so would be overcasting on Force 8. Add using a reroll with Edge to make sure the thing doesn't scatter.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (18:44:40/10-25-13)
By the way, don't forget a caster can use Reagents to restrict the Force of a spell as well. They could overcast a Force 12 Fireball with Reagents to make sure they only score 6 hits max and thus take Stun drain. The drain damage taken doesn't change, though, so they'll likely still go unconscious or be heavily injured for a few hours.

Thank you. I'll save that that for a few NPC's as a last ditch attack.

...  Dude, that's like a TPK in a can.  If you get the 6 hits, that's DV15, -12AP, plus fire effect, and you can't dodge at all.

Someday I'll need probably something on that level to get there attention after a bit of advancement.  The party tank would probably have to use some edge, but could survive that, if a bit crispy. I figure an NPC at that desperate point may be struggling for 6 successes if there are wound penalties and such in play.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (21:34:00/10-25-13)
By the way, don't forget a caster can use Reagents to restrict the Force of a spell as well. They could overcast a Force 12 Fireball with Reagents to make sure they only score 6 hits max and thus take Stun drain. The drain damage taken doesn't change, though, so they'll likely still go unconscious or be heavily injured for a few hours.

Thank you. I'll save that that for a few NPC's as a last ditch attack.

...  Dude, that's like a TPK in a can.  If you get the 6 hits, that's DV15, -12AP, plus fire effect, and you can't dodge at all.

Someday I'll need probably something on that level to get there attention after a bit of advancement.  The party tank would probably have to use some edge, but could survive that, if a bit crispy. I figure an NPC at that desperate point may be struggling for 6 successes if there are wound penalties and such in play.

Yeah, but think about it for a second:  12 meter spread, probably hitting most if not all of the team.  If the tank, so far as that notion really works in Shadowrun, needs Edge to survive, isn't everyone else screwed?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (21:48:22/10-25-13)


Yeah, but think about it for a second:  12 meter spread, probably hitting most if not all of the team.  If the tank, so far as that notion really works in Shadowrun, needs Edge to survive, isn't everyone else screwed?

I'm not out to reckless and idily TPK the team, but every now and then, tossing a severe lethality risk at the right target keeps characters on their toes, and enhances players experience in the game knowing the GM isn't coddling them, skewing things so there is no genuine threat or risk out there.  And it gives them a lasting memory. "So that mage gave us his best. He tossed a spell so powerful, I don't know how he survived it. It nearly put him into a coma, and only be burning every reagent he had did he avoid it from cooking his brain to mush.  If he had  put it a few meters back, most of us would just be ashes on the ground.  But he had Bubbles, toughest darn Troll I ever saw breathing down his neck.  He knew that in a few seconds, he'd be on top of him, and it would all be over. So he dropped it on him, hoping that even if the spell didn't go quite where he wanted, he would take him down. The fireball  fragged our drones, a couple of spirits just ran back home extra crispy. But Bubbles..somehow took it. Yes he was burned, his skin scarred, his beautiful ponytail gone and the bright pink ribbons just ashy fragments, but he was still standing. He struggled over in pain, and the axe came down..and we all lived to get our pay. Bubbles spent quite a while with the streetdoc, but he's still running with us."
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Godwyn on (12:24:09/10-28-13)
Two main houserules our group is using, that I am getting to fully see in action and evaluate as the campaign is progressing.

Payment:  Add street cred as a multiplier on the pay scale.  Not sure if there should be a cap for it, as it may get out of hand, but the group is only around 30 karma currently. 

Technomancers:  Adjust priority down 1 step.  (IE. Spend B to get Technomancer A).

As there is now both a techno and a decker in the group, I finally get to evaluate that change alongside its fair comparison.  So far, it has not seemed to push the techno better than the decker.  They both do different things well.

The problem with Mystic Adepts is not in their power with magic, but that they seem to be the absolute best route to do a lot of other roles well.  Best hacker possible, mysad.  Best out of chargen?  Also a mysad.  Fastest character out of chargen?  Also a mystic adept.  Pretty much whatever niche they pick, except mage, they seem to be the best at.  Granted, I have not had enough in game experience with them to see if it holds up in actual play.  The one mysad in our game was trying to be a mage, and disappointed with his success at it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (12:39:52/10-28-13)
Probably want to cap the Street Cred factor on something like 50% of the remaining multipliers, and reduce it with Notoriety to encourage professionality.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Godwyn on (18:27:13/10-28-13)
Probably want to cap the Street Cred factor on something like 50% of the remaining multipliers, and reduce it with Notoriety to encourage professionality.

That's a good idea I didn't think of.  That way, the core pay for the job is still based on the primary factors, with a bonus for the Johnson wanting known professionals.  I think I will implement this. 

We considered factoring notoriety, but found it problematic with the variance within the group.  Taking the group average benefits those who have the most, while penalizing those with the least, and going to an individual pay per character varied calculation was more work than I wanted to do.  So they got a pass on it, this time.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (18:40:19/10-28-13)
We considered factoring notoriety, but found it problematic with the variance within the group.  Taking the group average benefits those who have the most, while penalizing those with the least[...]

And that is why you don't want to work with the notorious guy - he's a problem for the whole team.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: martinchaen on (21:59:21/11-03-13)
Here's a link to the House Rules and Interpretations we're gathering for our group. We basically put every contended rule to a vote.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18kgI86Mqa8WFhIWlB2NEFDVjQ/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Insaniac99 on (17:01:43/11-04-13)
Here's a link to the House Rules and Interpretations we're gathering for our group. We basically put every contended rule to a vote.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18kgI86Mqa8WFhIWlB2NEFDVjQ/edit?usp=sharing

No super squirt, even with the limit of 3 hits?  Any reason why?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: martinchaen on (19:18:54/11-04-13)
The general consensus is that the Super Squirt has no place in the game due to the rather ridiculous effects you can rack up. I don't think anyone really intended to ever use it before we included it in the house rules, this just makes it a formal agreement for us.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Insaniac99 on (03:40:45/11-05-13)
Fair enough.  I just wondered.  I took one look at it and my first thought was "requires Exotic Weapons, Limited to 3 hits (4 if you are an adept).... I'm not going to hit anything worth hitting with this." and ruled it out as a viable option.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bach_The_Fox on (14:48:43/11-08-13)
Rule: New interrupt action

"Hit The Deck!"
If a grenade or other explosive device is thrown at you, you can attempt to get to cover. You must have movement left to you for this combat turn, be able to move, and reduce your initiative by -5. If you move in the direction of cover, you may take advantage of that cover (see Destroying Barriers pg 197); otherwise, you simply increase the distance away from the grenade. At the end of this movement, you end up prone. This movement may be increased by the Sprint action if the limit on Sprinting hasn't been reached (see Sprinting, pg 162). Motion Activated Grenades require an opposed defense test, as normal. Resolve this interrupt after the defense test, but before the grenade explodes (if the attacker got net successes, it will explode in the spot you were in, hitting the ground; otherwise it scatters as normal).
Note: the direction of movement is determined before any scatter, so you may inadvertently run in towards an ill-thrown grenade!


Apologies if someone floated this or similar already, didn't do a search.

Thoughts? Any unseen interactions?
I worry it neuters grenades a bit much - I like how deadly they are - but I'm annoyed at the disconnect between being able to 'dodge bullets' but not get out of the way of a much slower moving projectile. This does give a tactical reason to not use all your movement up on your first action, however.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: coyote6 on (15:04:09/11-08-13)
I was thinking of letting an interrupt action (Dodge or Full Defense) be used against grenades, as a kind of teamwork test for the damage resistance test. So you'd roll the defense, plus Gymnastics or Willpower, -2 dice, and every hit would give you another die to resist the damage.

I was originally thinking about letting the hits equal meters moved, but then I thought that movement as an interrupt might be a bad precedent to set. (Can it be used against area spells? How about against suppressive fire? Or just in general, to get somewhere? Seems like a wormy can.)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bach_The_Fox on (15:23:59/11-08-13)
Against indirect area spells, no harm in treating it just like the grenades...though that certainly neuters them, as they're not as powerful as a grenade unless thrown at an obscene force.

Against suppressive fire,  I'd say it would be only useful for dropping prone - if they try moving through the suppressed area, they'll risk getting tagged as normal. Make the timing after the defense test (Reaction+Edge if you're in the zone and not in cover) like the motion grenades.

Movement is already a bit wiggy - a high initiative Street Sam could move 30-40 meters on his first action if he so chooses (for you football fans, that's like doing the 40 yard dash in 1 second - probably a 1st round draft pick  ;D ). Giving players a reason to not blow their movement all at once is a net good thing, I believe.

OR, just flat out disallow the interrupt for anything that isn't an actual grenade or other slow moving projectile. It should never get you out of a defense test regardless.


edit: speeling
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: KraakenDazs on (09:50:17/11-18-13)
Here's a few of mine, critiques welcome.

the reasoning behind these suggestions are:

1. I hate the thought of investing karma in dispellable, or one-shot use items like with the Fixate Metamagic.

2.While i do throw in the occasional overly priced tidbit (limited edition armor jacket, famous painting, etc..) ,  I want awakened characters to have decent, character advancing ways to spend their money instead of better cars and lifestyles, a thing very limited in these karma based characters.

So here are the rules.

Lost, broken, or disjoined Foci. If a character loses an attuned foci, invested xp will be returned to the character on a 1 pt /in-game week basis from the moment he decides the foci is lost to him.

Quickened Spell. Karma lost in a dispelled Quickened spell will also return at the rate of one per week. However, as an added restriction, the quickened spell may not be quickened again until the character has regained ALL of it's invested karma. It may however be sustained or recast normally through other rules (foci, quality, -2 to dice pool etc.).

Alchemy and Fixation metamagic. The character may use 500 nuyen worth of regeants in substitution of 1 karma point for alchemical purposes.(I'm also toying with the idea of allowing a bound spirit of man with the proper spell using spell binding task as an evil alternative.)It's pricy but it makes alchemy a liiiittle more flexible. No more than half the character's magic rating in karma may be substituted by reagants in any one preparation. (So they are more limited than a standard alchemy prep.)

Grimoire spells (New item)
Grimoire spells are extremely detailed spell formulaes that can be followed and used without the need of learning the spell through actual karma expenditure. This comes with a number of restrictions however. First, the spell formulae costs 10 times the price of a regular spell formulae (so 20k for 1 combat spell, 5K for healing, etc.) and requires the magician to hold the item it is inscribed into (a carbed bone prayer or the like for shamans, old vellum books for hermetics) while performing the incantation. They can also be stolen, damaged or lost normally.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Godwyn on (03:31:01/11-19-13)
I can't help but feel those give a bit too much back to the magic users.  The lost foci one seems especially troubling.  What is to stop a mage from abandoning a foci to regain the karma to use to bond a more powerful focus?  If a cyber character wants to upgrade their 'ware, do they get the money refunded from the old ware to buy the new?  I know its not entirely the same, as the focus cost money as well. 

The grimoire spells look interesting, but I think fall into an area SR tries to avoid usually.  They are almost effectively magic items that provide a proscribed effect.  Can anyone use them?  Why not?  Can an adept?  What about an aspected magician using one outside of their aspect?  If only specific awakened, mostly full mages, can use them, that specific group gets a massive boost in utility that circumvents one of the few limiting factors on awakened power, needing to spread karma out to get a lot of things.  For mundanes, one of the few advantages they have is often being able to be a bit "better" in "more" areas, but the awakened can make up for it with unique tricks the mundanes cannot duplicate, if they know the trick.  The grimoire pretty much ensures the awakened can know the trick they need, when they need to.  What do mundanes get to balance it out?

I do like the reagents cost for fixation, though I might  sugget 500 nuyen per day of extension rather than a straight 500, as there is almost no point in spending more than 1 karma anyways, as a single point/500 nuyen extends the duration to days instead.  Spending more karma only gives more dice against disjoining, so the half magic rating is almost irrelevant.  I still see a lot of potential for abuse, as it lets an alchemist prepare very high force spells ahead of time, with no risk of drain during the run.  That is a significant advantage.  At 500 it is perhaps too cheap, but 500 a day per preparation puts a harder limit on it.

I guess my view on giving anything additional to awakened characters is to resist magicrun.  My current group is already at 1 of 6 players being not awakened.  His character is the mundane decker almost entirely for backstory reasons, as the best deckers are also awakened. 

Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: KraakenDazs on (10:31:30/11-19-13)
Hm, ill admit, all valid concerns. I kind of was aiming at a way to make the lesser used magical aspects due the karma cost, more present, and i tend to see karma as a finite ressources, over nuyen which, at some point down the line, becomes plenty availible to smart/efficient runners.

But granted, all my experienced players went for awakened, and the lesser experienced went for 'wares. While it gave me a good split between awakened and non-awakened (2 v2), magic is however especially powerful down the line. Maybe they need to spend the karma and accept the losses in the end.

Still, when it comes down to experienced rpg gamers/rule lawyers, they,ll go leaps and bounds to avoir ''perma xp-loss'', so they'simply wont buy focus, or not delve into alchemy, just on the principle of the thing. The whole point of those rules was to encourage using the other magical aspects of shadowrun, albeit at an high nuyen cost.

thanks for the input!
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: NCPtarmigan on (10:52:42/11-27-13)
I don't require a cyberdeck to be directly connected to a device to get the direct connection bonuses. As long as a hacker has ownership of a device that is directly connected to the target device, and routes the data through that device, it counts as a direct connect. For example, if someone (like an on-site runner) directly connects a commlink to a maglock, a decker can then wirelessly connect the the commlink and hack the maglock as if he had a direct connection.

Fluff reasoning: The target device doesn't know whether the data is coming directly from a cyberdeck, or from some other device that is routing the cyberdeck's datastream. All the target device knows is that it is getting data over a cable, and that this overrides data coming in wirelessly.

Rules reasoning: First, this allows Technomancers to take advantage of one of the biggest benefits to hacking without getting implants or wearing goofy trodes. Second, it opens up some cool possibilities for "social engineering" type hacks. Tricking someone into plugging in a planted device can get you access to their whole security network. Third, the hacker is still going to have to deal with noise - potentially a lot of noise - by using this option, so it doesn't totally remove hackers from the scene of the crime.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Godwyn on (14:31:37/12-10-13)
New rule I am thinking of proposing to the group.  Cyberware/Bioware adaptation.

Basically pay the cost in difference on a piece of gear, and spend the same amount of surgery and recover time as the original installation, to change the grade of 'ware.  From used to normal, or normal to alpha as an example.  There is no limit to how many times a piece can be improved, but no more than one grade per surgery time.  This can only improve the grade of the 'ware, not change its rating value, orthoskin R2 to R3 is a no.  It just lets 'ware be better adapted to the individual it is installed in.

It has just always puzzled me that there is no way to tweak something once it is installed to better tailor it to the subject.  I figure actual use and observation is one of the best ways to see what isn't adapting perfectly anyways.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: martinchaen on (15:22:07/12-10-13)
Good call, Godwyn, I like that one and might steal it for myself :)

NCPtarmigan; also a good call, thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (17:03:59/12-21-13)
I've always been a big fan of background and knowledge skills in my game, and am annoyed at the lack of them you get in the 5th ed build. So in response to that, a house rule that all newly created characters start with (Intuition + Logic) x 4. It'll give a boost to skills to build one's knowledge base and background and give those who want speak other languages enough points to do so.  An alternative is to separate knowledge and language skills, giving (intuition + Logic) x3 knowledge skills, and Logic x 1.5 (round up) language skills.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (17:06:18/12-21-13)
I've always been a big fan of background and knowledge skills in my game, and am annoyed at the lack of them you get in the 5th ed build. So in response to that, a house rule that all newly created characters start with (Intuition + Logic) x 4. It'll give a boost to skills to build one's knowledge base and background and give those who want speak other languages enough points to do so.  An alternative is to separate knowledge and language skills, giving (intuition + Logic) x3 knowledge skills, and Logic x 1.5 (round up) language skills.

Either could work, but it would be good to include Intuition somehow in Language skill points since those skills are linked to Intuition.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (17:10:47/12-21-13)
I've always been a big fan of background and knowledge skills in my game, and am annoyed at the lack of them you get in the 5th ed build. So in response to that, a house rule that all newly created characters start with (Intuition + Logic) x 4. It'll give a boost to skills to build one's knowledge base and background and give those who want speak other languages enough points to do so.  An alternative is to separate knowledge and language skills, giving (intuition + Logic) x3 knowledge skills, and Logic x 1.5 (round up) language skills.

Either could work, but it would be good to include Intuition somehow in Language skill points since those skills are linked to Intuition.

I didn't look it up and was thinking they where linked with logic. I'd say then for the separate builds, do intuition x 1.5 (round up) instead of logic.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: All4BigGuns on (17:15:02/12-21-13)
I've always been a big fan of background and knowledge skills in my game, and am annoyed at the lack of them you get in the 5th ed build. So in response to that, a house rule that all newly created characters start with (Intuition + Logic) x 4. It'll give a boost to skills to build one's knowledge base and background and give those who want speak other languages enough points to do so.  An alternative is to separate knowledge and language skills, giving (intuition + Logic) x3 knowledge skills, and Logic x 1.5 (round up) language skills.

Either could work, but it would be good to include Intuition somehow in Language skill points since those skills are linked to Intuition.

I didn't look it up and was thinking they where linked with logic. I'd say then for the separate builds, do intuition x 1.5 (round up) instead of logic.

Keep the Intuition + Logic. You're already doing a lower multiplier, so that in itself will give less.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (17:32:41/12-21-13)
I've always been a big fan of background and knowledge skills in my game, and am annoyed at the lack of them you get in the 5th ed build. So in response to that, a house rule that all newly created characters start with (Intuition + Logic) x 4. It'll give a boost to skills to build one's knowledge base and background and give those who want speak other languages enough points to do so.  An alternative is to separate knowledge and language skills, giving (intuition + Logic) x3 knowledge skills, and Logic x 1.5 (round up) language skills.

Either could work, but it would be good to include Intuition somehow in Language skill points since those skills are linked to Intuition.

I didn't look it up and was thinking they where linked with logic. I'd say then for the separate builds, do intuition x 1.5 (round up) instead of logic.

Keep the Intuition + Logic. You're already doing a lower multiplier, so that in itself will give less.

It'll also mean less bookkeeping and give more flexibility to the types of non-active skills a player wishes to have.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Godwyn on (01:16:25/01-15-14)
I like the increasing the free skills.  No idea why they reduced it for SR5 anyways.

Current additional houserule that I have used.  Under crashes p. 201.  Whenever a vehicle wrecks, passengers protected by proper SRS and restraints add the vehicle body to the damage resistance test.  The rules are already kind of odd that the less protected a vehicle is (like a motorcycle) the less damage wrecking it causes.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tuoweit on (12:15:40/01-15-14)
I've always been a big fan of background and knowledge skills in my game, and am annoyed at the lack of them you get in the 5th ed build. So in response to that, a house rule that all newly created characters start with (Intuition + Logic) x 4. It'll give a boost to skills to build one's knowledge base and background and give those who want speak other languages enough points to do so. 

I'm considering a similar house rule.  I plan to use the current RAW amount for "professional" knowledge skills, the stuff runners like to get explicitly for the purposes of 'running such as "Security Tactics" and the like, and the same amount again for "flavour" knowledge skills.  These are the things like "Dance Clubs," "Origami," etc  - stuff that's more descriptive in nature that might only occasionally if ever come up in a game, not be used as a matter of course.

Most players don't like to "gimp" their character's potential by missing out on a useful skill when they can drop some "inconsequential fluff" instead.   With this rule, players can give their characters some interesting and flavourful knowledge skills without feeling like they're giving up an advantage to do so.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Dracain on (01:04:03/01-18-14)
Considering some of the earlier confusion about how cover works, I came up with this little idea.  To get cover you have to use one of two "Take Cover" simple actions, either partial or good cover. 

If the cover can only cover 25-50% of your character, you can only use the "Take Partial Cover" action, to get a +2 to defence, this bonus lasts until you move out of cover (or the cover is destroyed), and you can attack as normal from this position, with no penalties.  The is the character peering out of cover, ready to fire, while still protecting themselves. 

If the cover can cover 50%+ of your character, you can either "Take Partial Cover", as described above, or you can "Take good cover" which applies a +4 bonus (plus concealment, if your whole body is concealed), this bonus lasts until you move out of cover (or the cover is destroyed), however you can only attack with blind fire (or anything that lets you attack around a corner) while in this mode).  This is your character covering as much of their body as possible, while firing by sticking their gun out and pulling the trigger. 

Switching between the two is a simple action. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (06:33:48/01-18-14)
So someone who's looking through a shooting gap and pointing a gun through it would not be able to fire without blind fire? Sounds nasty.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Dracain on (13:48:57/01-18-14)
So someone who's looking through a shooting gap and pointing a gun through it would not be able to fire without blind fire? Sounds nasty.
The rule is more for general cover, for shooting gaps, I would probably say it is a +3, since your body is still open to return fire, but it minimizes the unprotected areas. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (19:18:01/01-18-14)
The way the explanation is phrased, it seems more to apply for when you're behind total cover, rather than good/partial, which is how I run it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Dracain on (23:13:53/01-18-14)
The way the explanation is phrased, it seems more to apply for when you're behind total cover, rather than good/partial, which is how I run it.
I was talking about my rule.  What I was saying was that my rule was for general cover, because the cover rules have multiple ways they can be read, and I feel that each has its own issue.  The core concept behind my idea is that you are either +2, which is in a position to return fire normally, or you are +4, which is hunkering down behind cover and just sticking your hand out to fire on the enemy. 

For example, assume your character is taking cover behind a car, and looking over the hood to fire (+2), now when you want to reload, you stop looking over the car, and you get completely behind it (+4), and when you're done reloading, you can either go back to shooting over the hood, or stick your hand out and blind fire (or use the guncam so you can see around the corner and still fire). 

It's just a house rule, but I think it makes sense, allowing a character to shift positions, while still being rather simple. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (11:20:50/01-24-14)
This is spillover from the Rainforest Carbine discussion in the Gear forum.

I have a proposed alternative to the typical firearms skills.  In my opinion, the word "Automatics" is too vague and only speaks to the fire mode of the weapon.  The problem is that fire mode is not a good method of categorizing weapon skills.  The US Marine Corps qualifies their units on pistols, rifles, shoulder-launched weapons, grenades, sniper rifles, various vehicles, and all kinds of other highly-specific categories.  For game purposes, these need to be made accessible and simplified.  My proposal keeps the skills valuable for Skill Groups while managing to remove the fire mode from the equation completely.

Skill Group: Small Arms
Pistols
Longarms
SMGs

Skill Group: Heavy Weapons
Gunnery
Launch Weaponry
Machine Guns

Pistols would encompass the following categories: Tasers, Hold-out, Light pistol, Heavy pistol.  SMGs would encompass machine pistols and SMGs.  Longarms would encompass all rifles (automatic or otherwise) and shotguns.  Gunnery is vehicle-mounted or otherwise stationary emplacements.  Launch weapons covers shoulder-launched and underbarrel launchers.  Machine guns covers all hand-carried machine guns.  This would be LMG and heavier categories.

I'm curious to know if anyone would like to test this out - I think that this would clarify a lot of things in regards to what skill to use with what gun.  By removing the fire mode from the "which skill to use?" debate, I think it'll make things a lot easier.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (01:15:07/01-25-14)
...  Serious balance issue - Firearms skills are reasonably balanced at the moment; SMGs would be a basically useless skill and Longarms would be damn near the One True Skill.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Novocrane on (03:53:46/01-25-14)
I'd rather see it broken down into something like the following, with the option to replace one skill per group with a related exotic ranged weapon skill. Would probably still cause problems.
Gunnery can stay a Vehicle skill.

Firearms
Small Arms(Ranged Tazers to SMGs)
Long Arms (Carbines to Sniper Rifles)
Shotguns

Heavy Weapons
Grenade Launchers
Missile Launchers
Machine Guns
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kanly on (06:32:22/01-25-14)
I'd rather see it broken down into something like the following, with the option to replace one skill per group with a related exotic ranged weapon skill. Would probably still cause problems.
Gunnery can stay a Vehicle skill.

Firearms
Small Arms(Ranged Tazers to SMGs)
Long Arms (Carbines to Sniper Rifles)
Shotguns

Heavy Weapons
Grenade Launchers
Missile Launchers
Machine Guns

So Heavy Weapons stays the same, Shotguns skill is extremely limited and Small and Long Arms are uber? :S

I don't see how this is balanced.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Novocrane on (09:24:03/01-25-14)
Last check, Heavy Weapons is one skill by RAW, not a skill group.

As it stands, I forgot that these are the current Heavy Weapon specialisations, which frees up space to further split firearms.

Quote
Assault Cannons
Grenade Launchers
Guided Missiles
Machine Guns
Rocket Launchers
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kanly on (09:46:06/01-25-14)
Hmm yes you're right, I somehow forgot to note you transformed Heavy Weapons into 3 skills.
The problem with this is that Heavy Weapons don't see that frequent use, so it's kinda unbalanced to split it any further.

And still having a whole separate skill allowing you to use only Shotguns, while another skill allowing you to use anything from Tasers to SMGs is nowhere near balanced or fair.
With this you would see most chars just buying Small Arms and leaving it at that.

I'm guessing you're playing some sort of a Military campaign? B/c there it could make sense to split HW since it will see a LOT of use - and on the other hand you wouldn't really see any "Small Arms" so that kinda works too. So my conclusion is this: if it's a military campaign it's a good ruling, if it's shadowrunning it's dangerously unbalanced.

Sorry for the negativity, didn't mean to offend, just to heavily criticize :)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (12:52:48/01-25-14)
​Okay so I was feeling a little bit constrained by the priority​​ ​system and I decided to do something about it since I don't feel like waiting for 2D6 months for Run Faster.

My goal was to come up with a solution that matches the priority table as closely as possible but gives some room to customize characters and tweak particularly tough builds on a more granular level​.​ To that end,​​ ​I've interpolated between the data points given by the priority table to provide a finer selection of build characteristics. It's a 100 point build with​ ​​the same categories as the Priority system. Each category ranges from 0 to 40 points in value, where 40 points corresponds to priority A, 30 points​ ​​to ​B, 20 points C, 10 points D and 0 points E. For the purely numerical priorities I did my best to follow a smooth progression that hit all the priority table's data points . For categories that were more complex, I did my best to fit a natural progression to the data, in most cases it was a increasing "Rate of return" (for lack of a better term) to the points allocated.

​​https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmhcKfB4dBwWdHh0YkJ3S3ladE0wRE5CLW1rUjBmTFE&usp=sharing​

​What I've ended up with is kind of more of a hybrid-priority/point-buy since it matches with the priority table so closely. The purpose was not to make a tool for creating more powerful characters, but to have some more flexibility in character creation.

​Caveats:
1) The bonus skills and spells in the magic priority have all been converted to their karma values​ so that Aspected Magicians can buy skills or spells as they see fit.  Aspected Sorcerers are much less onerous to build with this.
2) In the Skill category the point-buy levels are only linear ​if you consider skill points and group points separately. Taken together, each incremental group point creates a significant jump in value. To avoid that step-function, I combined estimated karma values for those levels and created a smoother progression. Buying skill groups is unrestricted using karma-buy for skills.
3) The karma-buy values in the skill category is somewhat subjective since something like 18 skill points (Pri E or 0 BP) can be used to get 666 in skills and is worth 126 karma whereas the same 18 points can buy 64332 (a more well rounded character) but is only worth 92 karma.
4) While most values on the chart are interpolated, I extrapolated in a couple places, like where the Metatype priority - Dwarf (0) might fall and also values above 40 BP in the Resources category for higher level play.
5) It occurred to me this morning that this could be exploited by spending BPs: 40-40-20-0-0 on the categories.  To limit chicanery of this sort I'd limit a characters highest 2 categories to a total of 70, so a character could still go 35, 35 for their top 2.

Please take a look and let me know if you see any glaring errors or exploits that I've missed. (or if something is terribly confusing)

Thanks,
​FasterN8​
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (14:02:00/01-25-14)
You're quite optimisic with 2D6, I'm assuming 3D6+6 myself.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Novocrane on (23:12:03/01-25-14)
Sorry for the negativity, didn't mean to offend, just to heavily criticize :)
Not at all! It's for appropriating a high octane PMC campaign that failed to get off the ground a while back due to GM's IRL stuff. While I've been mulling over different options, and don't particularly like the core weapons skills, I haven't had a strong sense of direction with it. Namikaze's post & the conversation that followed helped bring some perspective I didn't have before.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (01:44:59/01-26-14)
I could see the Small Arms and Long Arms skills being realistic, but finding a third category just to fit the skill groups would be problematic.  And I think that's ultimately the problem with the firearms skills as they are.  I've been pondering this, and I don't know of a better way to express the skills than the way that is in the book or the suggestion that I made.  I realize that SMGs is a smaller category than Pistols or Longarms, but I can't think of a better solution without getting rid of an otherwise very useful skill group.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (05:43:56/01-26-14)
I could see the Small Arms and Long Arms skills being realistic

You do have to ask yourself if that's worth the balance problems, though - realistic is not intrinsically better.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: martinchaen on (21:34:35/01-26-14)
If you want realism, just get rid of the skill groups for firearms all together... Being good at firing a shotgun does not equal being good at firing a sniper rifle, nor does being good at firing an assault rifle make you good at firing a machine pistol.

Keep the skills, split the group's entirely. Alternatively, find slightly less broad groups that actually make sense, if realism is your concern. Game balance is fairly decent right now in terms of skills in my opinion.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Davidvs on (22:32:10/01-28-14)
Most players don't like to "gimp" their character's potential by missing out on a useful skill when they can drop some "inconsequential fluff" instead.   With this rule, players can give their characters some interesting and flavourful knowledge skills without feeling like they're giving up an advantage to do so.

Another idea is to write the adventures that having an unusual skill comes into play. ex: a powerful Yakuza boss that the PCs want as a contact who will not consider their request until the PC, who is doing the talking, learns some proper skills (Origami, etc). Or PCs who need to spy on two NPCs who communicate on paper and fold the notes into Origami - so they can tell if the note has been tampered with before it is sent across the city...the PCs need the skill to unfold and refold the note without being detected.  Etc with other skills. If the PCs have the skill then they hit the easy button, if not then they have to do something the hard way.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (08:17:02/02-06-14)
Here's a quick House Rule I am considering implementing:

When an opponent is within melee range (defined in the Interception Special Action), any attack made by that opponent which offers a defense test is considered a melee attack for the purpose of defense (allowing Dodge/Block/Parry to be used) unless other rules already exist (e.g. getting run over by a car).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (17:00:06/02-06-14)
Here's a quick House Rule I am considering implementing:

When an opponent is within melee range (defined in the Interception Special Action), any attack made by that opponent which offers a defense test is considered a melee attack for the purpose of defense (allowing Dodge/Block/Parry to be used) unless other rules already exist (e.g. getting run over by a car).

I might suggest amending that to make longer weapons (Assault Rifles, for example) more vulnerable to it than shorter weapons (SMGs, as an example) so that the CQC-centric weapon types actually carry part of their real-world advantage.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kanly on (17:09:25/02-06-14)
I Houseruled that pistols don't suffer any penalty in melee. Got used to it in Dark Heresy and it makes sense too.

I friggin love your houserule, JackVII.

RHat's right about needing to differentiate CQC arms from others. It would be nice gamebalance-wise too, adding some very realistic advantages for shorter weapons (vs everyone carrying Ares Alphas, combat shotguns and sniper rifles bc of the awesome damage).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (17:14:14/02-06-14)
I might suggest amending that to make longer weapons (Assault Rifles, for example) more vulnerable to it than shorter weapons (SMGs, as an example) so that the CQC-centric weapon types actually carry part of their real-world advantage.

I had thought about it but feared getting into a gun-measuring contest. ;) It does make sense though. I guess the easiest way would be to apply it by weapon class and allow specific exceptions (like the short barreled Defiance, possibly).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (17:28:49/02-06-14)
I might suggest amending that to make longer weapons (Assault Rifles, for example) more vulnerable to it than shorter weapons (SMGs, as an example) so that the CQC-centric weapon types actually carry part of their real-world advantage.

I had thought about it but feared getting into a gun-measuring contest. ;) It does make sense though. I guess the easiest way would be to apply it by weapon class and allow specific exceptions (like the short barreled Defiance, possibly).

The other exception would be bullpupped weapons.  Personally, I'd just throw a Reach value on there, use that as the Reach if using a Bayonet on the weapon, and then from there understand that if you're in Reach of your opponent (and for Block/Parry, I'd probably include the defender's Reach in there), it opens up those active defense options along with things like disarms.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kanly on (17:39:06/02-06-14)
~Bullpup: they have a more advantageous Conceal modifier too, which seems to be based of size. So that table could help maybe?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Dracain on (15:19:03/02-10-14)
Since quickening is rather easy to cheese, I figured a house rule might be nice, so I came up with two ways to deal with it. 

A:  You can only quicken an amount of spells equal to your initiate rank

or

B:  Quickening has levels, and you can only quicken an amount of spells equal to your quickening level. 

I prefer A personally, but either work. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: martinchaen on (16:25:11/02-10-14)
I think our house rule for quickening is that you have to spend at least as much karma as the force of the spell you want to quicken.

Want to quicken Force 6 Detect Enemies? Costs at least 6 karma. This helps with the exploitation factor. Not sure if we made it so that you also only get the benefit of extra karma spent in terms of dispelling.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tuoweit on (19:26:42/02-10-14)
I am building an Aspected Magician as an NPC, and I came across an oddity with Mentor Spirits:  Many of the Magician bonuses for Mentor Spirits are either casting-specific or conjuring-specific.

To work around this and make Mentor Spirits way more useful for Aspected Magicians (and slightly more flexible for full Magicians), I plan to use this house rule: 

The Magician bonuses for Mentor Spirits that apply to "spells, preparations, and rituals" can alternatively apply to summoning the appropriate category of Spirit, according to the Magician's tradition (e.g. Combat Spirits for Dragonslayer, which would be Fire spirits for Hermetics or Beast Spirits for Shamans).  Conversely, Magician bonuses which apply to summoning a specific kind of Spirit can alternatively be applied to the spells, preparations, and rituals of the appropriate category (e.g. Water Spells for Sea, which would be Illusion for Hermetics and Detection for Shamans.)  This is an either/or choice, the Magician doesn't get both bonuses.

(Rat's a bit of a special case, since its bonus is strictly for Alchemy.  For completeness I'd allow Rat the choice of either bonus to Man, following the above rules.)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JackVII on (21:30:25/02-10-14)
With some of the opposition to the recent progressive recoil errata, I thought about what house rule I could implement to create a happy medium between the two rule sets. Here's what I came up with so far. It does a bit of a hit to FA users, but FA seems pretty powerful at the moment, particularly the simple action 6-round burst.

SA: Works as errata
BF: Requires the Take Aim action or a full action phase of non-shooting actions to clear progressive recoil. This use of the Take Aim action does not provide the standard benefits of Take Aim, it only clears progressive recoil, If no progressive recoil exists, Take Aim works as normal.
FA: 6 & 10 round FA bursts are both Complex Actions and otherwise work as errata.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: WellsIDidIt on (19:00:40/02-15-14)
I've restructured firearms in my games. I did this in SR4 as well, but here is the basics layout:

Skill Group: Firearms
Pistols
Longarms
Heavy Weapons

Instead of using automatics, which I found to be non-sense, Pistols includes everything up to SMGs (if it can be fired one handed basically) and Longarms covers everything short of a machine gun. Heavy Weapons isn't changed at all.

Another house rule I use involves gunnery. If a vehicle mounted weapon is being fired while the vehicle is not moving, the player may use the appropriate non-gunnery attack skill.

So a player firing a mounted machine gun can use Heavy Weapons if the vehicle is not moving.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Geewaagh on (07:06:13/02-18-14)
Movement issue for me:

- Too fast of movement rate
-Poof, I'm across the make on first pass before anyone can do anything
- Spend complex action to sprint, get 0 hits? You do nothing for your init pass, sorry! (I hate tell PCs that)
- Rate is too varied.  AGL 7 goes 7x faster than AGL.  This seems unreasonable. Level the playing field a bit please.  World record is not 7x fast in sprint than I am, and I am pretty low on AGL scale.

My Movement Fix
Neither my NPC's or PC's ever use movement outside of pass one (mostly) or pass two.  Could they move on pass three? sure! do they? not that often. Based on that, I think I will house rule the following:

- Movement cost you a free action and goes in pass 1 and pass 2, even if you only get one init pass.  You still get to move in 2nd pass for free action move.
- Movement is based on AGL+3, not 2x.  This means a 3 AGL is still AGLx2, but slows down top end a bit and speed up bottom end a bit.
- Movement rate is all you get during your 2 free passes.
-Sprinting: Complex like usual, but you get Movement Rate + net hits instead of just net hits. If you do nothing but sprinting for two passes, it get you back up to the 4x AGL from RAW.

Comments?  Glaring isssues?






Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:19:51/02-18-14)
You're screwing over Mages, who already need their Free Actions to center AND to counterspell AND to give their Spirits instructions, and their full Complex action to attack. Same for Melee characters, who need that movement more than gunbunnies.

The smoothing over of Movement rate seems nice though, helps balance things a bit more and it's a bit more fair to sprinters. Can't say if the exact way it's done is how I'd do it but the idea is nice.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (09:19:28/02-18-14)
I thought that once you started moving, you kept the movement rate throughout the whole Turn.  If you walk or run it doesn't cost you an action (that only happens with sprinting).  And with sprinting, your hits add to your movement, not replace it.

Characters walk normally (pp 161-162).  When they exceed their Agility x2 in meters in a Turn, they are classified as "running"  (pg 162).  Running is used for any movement up to agility x4 (pg 162).  When a character sprints, they increase their distance traveled in that Action Phase by 1 meter per hit (for dwarves and trolls) or 2 meters per hit (for everyone else) (pg 162).

I think you've got the way that movement works wrong, but I could just be mis-interpreting your post.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (09:52:40/02-18-14)
I thought that once you started moving, you kept the movement rate throughout the whole Turn.  If you walk or run it doesn't cost you an action (that only happens with sprinting).  And with sprinting, your hits add to your movement, not replace it.
You're correct (and intended movement that you cancel counts as well), however, you can use all of your movement rate in a single pass. If you try Sprinting then and don't score hits, your movement allowment won't go up so you end up not being able to cover any extra distance.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Geewaagh on (10:08:43/02-18-14)
Michael:
If you exceed walk in RAW, you lose all free actions for rest of turn anyway.
I see your point, though, and maybe could consider it as movement in addition to free action.

What I wanted to control was spreading out movement over two passes instead of "poof" your there.
My experience thus far with the game is that if there are melee types on the board and want to be in contact with enemy or if there is a place you want to be, then place your self there. Because movement is large and instantaneous on first phase.  All other games I have played lets you pull the trigger before someone can be own you from 24 meters away.  Just seems like all the movement rules could be removed and just ask character where he wants to be at status of his pass.

Namikaze
I understand the movement system in the rules. And yes, once you go over walking, you are considered running for rest of turn. But all the physical movement happens when you want it too.   In my table, that means all of it on first pass.  I play on tactical map. Most is in doors so 20 meters is a pretty large distance. At stat of my players passes, they put themselves where they want and there they stay unit end of combat. No one really moves, IMO.

Which also drives me to another idea. Anyone ever use Zones in the FATE system?  Think it could work for shadowrun?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (10:25:06/02-18-14)
See, I interpreted the rules to imply that movement happens throughout the 3 seconds of the Action Phase.  I guess I just sort of smoothed out the movement throughout the turn in my head.  Though I could see with a tactical map how this might be an incredibly difficult thing to do.  Now I understand what you're going for here.

Perhaps say that movement works like this:

Any turn that your total movement has exceeded AGI x2 is considered running and gets the benefits and penalties of such.  To move beyond that in a single turn requires Sprinting with a Running test to determine how far they can push beyond that limit?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kanly on (10:28:59/02-18-14)
How would you cover charging? When an opponent is within walk range but you still want to run up to attack in melee.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (10:55:32/02-18-14)
See, I interpreted the rules to imply that movement happens throughout the 3 seconds of the Action Phase.  I guess I just sort of smoothed out the movement throughout the turn in my head.
Yeah, it represents such movement but it got turned into 'doesn't matter when you take it', which is an abstraction that has both upsides and downsides.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (11:08:16/02-18-14)
How would you cover charging? When an opponent is within walk range but you still want to run up to attack in melee.

A charge attack shouldn't be possible unless you're running.  That's how the rules currently cover it, at least.  If I want to charge a target 3 meters away from me on my first Action Phase, then I can't get the charge bonuses.  Weird.

That should maybe be changed too.  Perhaps if the attacker is outside of Reach of the weapon being used, they can declare a charge action (Complex, Melee Attack with movement)?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Geewaagh on (11:22:11/02-18-14)
How would you cover charging? When an opponent is within walk range but you still want to run up to attack in melee.

I would say u make a complex action called charging. Same as my sprinting.  So, you get your free base move plus base move plus net hits for the "charging" action.  So to get off a charge, you would have to be no more that 2x you base move plus however many hits you think you can make on a running roll. Now I get a chance to have some nice rules for failed charge for those who want to push their luck.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (11:33:44/02-18-14)
That would work quite well for a battle mat scenario.  Failed charges would suck!

I just thought of how you can smooth out movement though.  Take the number of Action Phases that the character is supposed to get at the start of combat, and use that as a divisor for their movement rate.  So if someone has AGI 3 (normally 6 meters of walking) and 2 Action Phases, they get to move 3m per Action Phase.  If they want to move more, then that turn is treated as Running.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (11:50:21/02-18-14)
Won't work due to ways of losing/lowering Initiative. Furthermore, you'd be penalizing people with a higher Initiative by not letting them move as far, which may very well cost them their chances at reaching cover.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (11:55:20/02-18-14)
Won't work due to ways of losing/lowering Initiative. Furthermore, you'd be penalizing people with a higher Initiative by not letting them move as far, which may very well cost them their chances at reaching cover.

Touche.  Hmm, no good solution that I can think of right now.

But what I did think of is a new mechanic:

Favors
Description: score works as a dice pool modifier for tests by the contact.  Negative score reflects favors owed to the contact, positive score reflects favors owed to the character.  Score changes at GM discretion.
Uses: character can burn a number of Favor points equal to the desired Loyalty rating of the contact to increase the contact’s Loyalty.
Example: If a contact has 1 Loyalty, it takes 2 Favors to increase Loyalty to 2.  It would take 5 Favors to go from 1 to 3.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (15:56:42/02-28-14)
Won't work due to ways of losing/lowering Initiative. Furthermore, you'd be penalizing people with a higher Initiative by not letting them move as far, which may very well cost them their chances at reaching cover.

It works fine.  I know because that's very similar to how my table used to play 4th edition.  We divided movement by 3 and gave every character a free action to spend in each initiative pass regardless of initiative score.  So every player got to move in the first 3 initiative passes, but (obviously) not every character had the initiative score to actually act productively throughout all that movement.

The result of our house rule was that on the first initiative pass, people did lots of running for cover and sometimes had to make sprint tests to do it, which sounds a lot like what the start of a firefight should look like.  Rarely was anyone in combat ever just walking.  It also meant that low initiative characters were constantly engaged if only to a smaller degree.

So to translate that houesrule to 5th edition, a character with a 3 agility would have a run rate of 12, so 4 meters per initiative pass without a sprint test.  That's more than 13 feet in about 1 second starting from a dead stop.   That's enough to cross a small room or get to cover in most cases, and that's just a guy with average agility and no running skill.  Things get a lot more interesting with higher agility and sprint tests.  (I also think that sprint tests should remain simple actions)

Now, I understand that melee characters benefited greatly from the "teleport" type movement of RAW 5th edition, but the cases where an agile melee character cannot close to melee range with this system should be relatively rare (10+ meters).  And I have no sympathy for players who complain about not being able to attack with their sword from 25+ meters before the enemy can even get a single shot off.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (16:12:01/02-28-14)
It works fine.  I know because that's very similar to how my table used to play 4th edition.
When you make sure everyone has the same movement allowance percentage per IP, and you make sure they can move even in IPs they cannot act in, then yes it works. However, that's not the system he described, and without those details, the system does NOT work because someone with a high Initiative ends up having their movement rate heavily damaged. So no, what he described won't work.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (16:12:12/02-28-14)
Won't work due to ways of losing/lowering Initiative. Furthermore, you'd be penalizing people with a higher Initiative by not letting them move as far, which may very well cost them their chances at reaching cover.
It works fine.  I know because that's very similar to how my table used to play 4th edition.  We divided movement by 3 and gave every character a free action to spend in each initiative pass regardless of initiative score.  So every player got to move in the first 3 initiative passes, but (obviously) not every character had the initiative score to actually act productively throughout all that movement.
Except, of course, the flaws Michael pointed out are precisely flaws your houserule avoided, which means that the success of your houserule doesn't really say anything about how well Namikaze's proposed houserule would work.
You see, under Namikaze's proposal, someone who loses an IP due to Initiative score reduction (interrupt actions, wound modifiers, electricity damage...) would either lose out on movement or end up in the strange situation where their Initiative Score going down means they can move more in their remaining IPs, and someone who starts with 31 Initiative will have half the movement per IP as someone who starts with 20 Initiative and has the same Agility. Under your houserule, those problems don't occur.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (16:26:24/02-28-14)
Sure, his idea had some issues, he was shooting from the hip with a brand new idea.  But his idea was exactly what mine started out as and if we're constructive instead of just pointing out the flaws, then his idea would likely develop a bit more and end up as good or better than mine.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (16:47:48/02-28-14)
I'm actually going to move this topic to a new thread, so we don't clog up the House Rules thread with debates and discussion.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (17:43:01/02-28-14)
Sure, his idea had some issues, he was shooting from the hip with a brand new idea.  But his idea was exactly what mine started out as and if we're constructive instead of just pointing out the flaws, then his idea would likely develop a bit more and end up as good or better than mine.
There's little constructive about not pointing out obvious flaws.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (15:12:13/03-01-14)
Perhaps my definition of "constructive" is too narrow, but I was using it to mean criticism that included suggestions for improvement (hence construct-ive) rather than only pointing out of flaws (which still has value and necessity).

I don't want to start a debate on semantics, I just wanted to clear up what I intended by my comments.

Sorry for offending anyone.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Flip on (04:46:10/03-24-14)
I've found the rules for ramming a bit rediculous (or I might be reading them wrong).

On page 203, it says that "the base damage value of the attack is determined by the ramming vehicle's body and speed". it later says "Characters in the ramming vehicle only take half that ammount (rounding up)".

So... This means if I am in a Suzuki Mirage going 80 m/s and ram Rover 2072... I have to resist 5 damage using my characters body and armor

If I am in an Rover 2072 however and ram a Suzuki Mirage while going 80m/s I have to resist 15 using my characters body and armor.

So when I am driving in a giant van, I get more messed up ramming a Motorcycle, than I do ramming a giant van with a bike. This seems utterly absurd... So instead I decided to make my own rules.

Rammed Vehicle Body x Ramming Table Modifier(Using the Ramming vehicles speed) / 2

Still a bit wonky, but I'm not a real math/statistics/game-design wiz so it's the best I got. Thoughts?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (10:49:20/03-24-14)
I'm just an armchair physicist, but I do work with basic physics a bit.  Most of the time, my simulations already have the physics worked out correctly, but I do have to fix their formulas on occasion.  In any event, most of the damage in a collision is caused by the speed of the vehicles, magnified by a factor based on their mass.

The basic formula looks like this:
F • t = mass • Delta v

F is the force, t is the time that the collision takes effect, Delta v is the difference in velocity between starting and stopping.  So as the time goes on, the force of the collision can change, in part because of the speed difference at the moment.

So the way that I'd handle collisions is to take out the time element and the delta velocity element as well.  Just say that time is 1, and delta velocity is equal to the speed of the vehicle (the vehicle comes to a complete stop instantly).  So in this case, you'd take the mass of the vehicle, multiplied by the velocity, to determine the force of the collision.  All of these forces create vectors that interact with each other, but for simplicity's sake it might be best to simply use the Body rating of the largest vehicle on both sides of the collision.

Aside from the Body of the equation, Speed is a huge factor.  Remember that the faster vehicle will take less of the energy of the collision, so the slowest vehicle takes the most impact.  If you're in a head-on collision with another car, the best thing for you to do is speed up.  It means that the other driver is going to get hosed, but you might live.  To translate this into Shadowrun, I think that you take the other vehicle's Speed as your factor.  So if you're the ramming vehicle, you use the "recipient" vehicle's Speed to determine the damage.

The ramming damage table should be based on the largest of V1B and V2B, in both situations.  The speed should be based on the other vehicle, regardless of who is the rammer.  So if you're using the example that Flip provided of a Suzuki Mirage going 80m/s and a Rover 2072 going...  zero m/s? the Mirage takes 7 damage while the Rover takes 10 damage.  The driver (and passengers) of the Mirage take 3 damage in this situation.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Sword Emperor on (05:09:53/04-09-14)
By the rules, there is no way for the character on the receiving end of an area-effect attack to avoid the blast. There is a nod in the defense rules, but the rule doesn't explain how to actually defend against something where the character isn't the direct target.

Here, I have created a house rule to address that concern (inspired by Michael Chandra's rule, in this thread (http://www.shadowrun.com/forums/discussion/34765/unfinished-grenade-rules/p1)).

Dodging Area-Effect Attacks
Characters may attempt to avoid an area-effect attack by attempting to move away from the epicenter of the blast. This is an Interrupt Action called Move, which costs the character a -5 Initiative Score. The player makes a (Reaction + Intuition + Running) [Physical] test, at a -2 penalty. Each hit enables their character to move either 1 meter (for dwarfs and trolls) or 2 meters (for elves, humans, and orks) away from the epicenter of the blast (as per the rules for Sprinting).

This Interrupt Action counts against the character's total movement for the turn. Also, the character is considered to be running until the end of the Combat Turn, and so incurs the normal penalties and benefits of running. Finally, count this Interrupt Action against the characters maximum number of Sprinting tests for the Combat Turn.

As with any other Interrupt Action, you may combine this Interrupt Action with Full Defense. You still suffer the -2 penalty to the roll.
End Rule Text

Notes
Practically, this means that characters may be able to get further away from the blast radius of an explosion, and thus take less damage overall, or even escape it entirely. Of course, when it comes to spells, they usually need to escape the area entirely, or else they take the full brunt of the spell.

By the rule text above, a character must take the -5 Initiative in order to dodge the area-effect attack. If the player is unwilling or unable to make that sacrifice, then their cannot avoid the blast. This is intentional because of the drastic effects that this Interrupt Action has on combat. A generous GM may allow characters to make a standard Reaction + Intuition test, without the -5 Initiative Penalty; all of the other factors, including the -2 penalty to the roll, would still apply.

The rules text does not say what happens if the player fails, glitches, or critically glitches. I am divided on how I would handle this. Here's a few options.

Failure 1: Treat this result as if nothing happened. The character simply didn't have any time to react.

Failure 2: The character still suffers all the benefits and penalties of running and Sprinting, even though they don't actually make any significant movement. This represents the character already being in "run" mode, so to speak; they just haven't gotten anywhere.

Glitch: The character experiences all of the penalties, but none of the benefits.

Critical Glitch: In addition to the results of the glitch, the character, in a blind panic, runs toward the blast. Move the character either 1 meter (for dwarfs and trolls) or 2 meters (for elves, humans, and orks) toward from the epicenter of the blast. If the character is already at the epicenter of the blast, he will be knocked Prone or effectively disarmed (whichever the GM finds more appropriate) in addition to any other effects.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Coldstone on (20:32:16/04-09-14)
On the offhand, I like the overall notion of that for dealing with  'hit the deck(er)' , and using features already built in to boot.

as far as glitches go...may be more of a GM moment really. trip during the end of your movement, run into something, dash out too far and become a target on other end, etc. critical glitch I think can be spared - you're about to get a grenade (or similar) to the arse. I think a little GM mercy is fine at this point.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (04:12:57/04-10-14)
I don't have Run&Gun yet, but page 125 has an Interrupt Action called "Run for Your Life/Dive on the Grenade". Can't wait to read it. :)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (04:48:59/04-10-14)
I don't have Run&Gun yet, but page 125 has an Interrupt Action called "Run for Your Life/Dive on the Grenade". Can't wait to read it. :)

Also, options to throw the grenade back either after it lands or by catching it - just better hope to hell it's not on Motion Sensor mode.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (09:00:56/04-21-14)
Ranged Combat - Firearms
Defending against ranged attack considered an Opposed Test: Agility+Skill VS Reaction OR Intuition (the highest of those). Because I hate characters dodging three bullets in a row, standing without cover (like in The Matrix movies).

I even wanted to resurrect SR 1-3 rules of dodging - a limited Pool for dodging, refreshing every Combat Turn. But my players said it's too harsh, so we use 4e-like rule mentioned above.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (15:54:14/04-21-14)
Ranged Combat - Firearms
Defending against ranged attack considered an Opposed Test: Agility+Skill VS Reaction OR Intuition (the highest of those). Because I hate characters dodging three bullets in a row, standing without cover (like in The Matrix movies).

I even wanted to resurrect SR 1-3 rules of dodging - a limited Pool for dodging, refreshing every Combat Turn. But my players said it's too harsh, so we use 4e-like rule mentioned above.

Fact is, though, the damage in SR5 is set in no small part based on the increased dodge rate - you get hit less often that in SR4, but when you do get hit you're in big trouble.  If getting hit is almost guarunteed, charactsrs will be dropping like flies, cover or not.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (16:50:42/04-21-14)
Quote
Fact is, though, the damage in SR5 is set in no small part based on the increased dodge rate - you get hit less often that in SR4, but when you do get hit you're in big trouble.  If getting hit is almost guarunteed, charactsrs will be dropping like flies, cover or not.
That's how it's meant to be. Firefight is not a piece of cake, that's what my players quickly begin to understand. Usually there are two chummers in the firefight - the quick and the dead. Hide, take cover, shoot first or make sure your backup will geek that guy after you hit the dirt. Otherwise players' characters strart to act like Hollywood actors.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:02:43/04-21-14)
The highest Reaction possible is 10. With Cover that's 14. Take off 5 from a burst penalty, and you're at 9. If the attacker has 9 agility, 6 skill, specialization and +1 from a wireless bonus, they're at 18 dice. That's 5/6 hitchance. This is maximum defense for a non-magical-buffed character, vs a mere optimized chargen runner (and elite enemies). Add 1 more wireless bonus die and 3 skill levels, and you're at 7% chance to dodge, with maximum cover, and nothing one can do to go higher. And an Adept can have that straight out of chargen.

Ask yourself: Do you want to give your players a hard time, or do you want them to realize that it's only a matter of time before they get massacred because defense will be outbeaten by offensive quite easily, so they can kill their enemies easily but it's only a matter of time before even their toughest get mowed down? Because not even cover can save you in SR5 with your houserule, they'll die like dogs the second their enemy is anywhere near competent, no matter how smart they are.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (17:15:21/04-21-14)
Quote
Fact is, though, the damage in SR5 is set in no small part based on the increased dodge rate - you get hit less often that in SR4, but when you do get hit you're in big trouble.  If getting hit is almost guarunteed, charactsrs will be dropping like flies, cover or not.
That's how it's meant to be. Firefight is not a piece of cake, that's what my players quickly begin to understand. Usually there are two chummers in the firefight - the quick and the dead. Hide, take cover, shoot first or make sure your backup will geek that guy after you hit the dirt. Otherwise players' characters strart to act like Hollywood actors.

There is difference between dangerous combat, and  combat where you're going to die no matter what you do.  If people aren't using cover, start using burst penalties, apply the knckdown rules, and so on.  Combat is already very dangerous, so if it's not seeming that way, I start to wonder what's missing in your game.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (01:57:07/04-22-14)
Quote
If the attacker has 9 agility, 6 skill, specialization and +1 from a wireless bonus, they're at 18 dice.
My house rule isn't based on such high-end characters.

For example, there is a sudden firefight between a PC (a detective) and a NPC (street ganger). Neither of them is a street sammy or other kind of bleeding edge trained fighter.
Though, detecitve has good skil in using a pistol (4) and adequate agility (3). So he rolls 7d6.
Ganger must know how to survive and be quick enough to run the streets, so he has agility (3) and intuition (3). So he rolls 6d6.
The firefight takes place in a backyard of old house. There's no adequate cover (at least, character haven't reached it yet). They roll Initiative, detective shoots first.
SA shot provides 7d6 against 6d6 - chances are barely equal.
SA burst provdes 4d6 (if pistol has no recoil compensation and detective strength is less or equal to 3) against 4d6.

I think that such a high chance for dodging 3 bullets is too cool for a street thug.
Even ADEQUATE pistol user must have chances to hit higher, than target's chances to dodge. Because bullets aren't something you can really dodge. You can predict enemy's actions, jump and twist, making his aim more difficult (that's why you have defense roll in all editions of SR), but 50/50 chance for hit gives you opportunity to literally dance among the bullets ("haha, load one more clip and try again - I will just stand here and dodge"). Even semi-auto gun can be used for pressing enemy with a bullets, and at certain moment bullet will get him (with chance much higher than 50/50).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (02:51:50/04-22-14)
Well, putting aside that a baseline, average person with a bit of skill is still gonna have trouble hitting a moving target that's shooting back, you've got at least one rule wrong.  No character has less than 2 RC - 1+(Str/3), rounded up.  Thus, bare minimum, that detective uses and SA burst with 6 dice.

Besides that, it's not "dodge three bullets".  It's "gets missed by three bullets".  Your defense roll doesn't represent dodging the specific path of the bullet, it represents freaking moving so that the other guy has a hard time hitting you.

And as soon as you take it past that ridiculously low end, there's serious problems.  Maybe the detective picks up Muscle Replacement/Toner 2, or runs a wireless implanted smartlink, and suddenly it's 8 dice against 4 for about a 70% chance to hit.  Even the super-low-end version is about 55%.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (03:21:18/04-22-14)
Quote
If the attacker has 9 agility, 6 skill, specialization and +1 from a wireless bonus, they're at 18 dice.
My house rule isn't based on such high-end characters.
If you're forbidding players from getting decent combat potential in chargen, and disallowing them from getting SMGs with Gas-Vents, then the houserule works, but on the other hand you seem to be overestimating just how easy gunfights are. There's been guys surviving hundreds of bullets shot at them.

If a single player gets a lasersighted wireless SMG with stock and gas-vent, however, he's at 90% hit-chance under the SR5 system. Under the SR4 system, he wouldn't even need the gas-vent, he can just fire 3 rounds for the same chances. If the enemy is behind cover, this incompetent PC would still be handling 60% chances to hit with a simple burst. If the character is an incompetent street sam with a mere 6 augmented agility, a mere 4 in skills, and a wireless smartgun with implanted smartlink, then even behind cover the ganger has <2/11 chance to not get hit.

What kind of campaign are you running? Because I fail to see this houserule working the second any character functions better than a mook NPC. Mobsters roll 10 dice on offense and 4 on defense with you. The Street Samurai archetype rolls 10, 12 in melee. In fact, no archetype that has to deal with combat regularly has 7 dice, even the Face and Tank roll 8.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (04:04:51/04-22-14)
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No character has less than 2 RC - 1+(Str/3), rounded up.
My fault. I remember that, just got a critical glitch. Yes, 6d6 VS 4d6.

Quote
Your defense roll doesn't represent dodging the specific path of the bullet, it represents freaking moving so that the other guy has a hard time hitting you.
Yes, I've mentioned it above. Making the aim for difficult.

Quote
If you're forbidding players from maximizing their combat potential in chargen, and disallowing them from getting SMGs with Gas-Vents, then the houserule works, but on the other hand you seem to be overestimating just how easy gunfights are.
Quote
What kind of campaign are you running?
A long investigation with strong need in carrying weapons with yourself everywhere (visiting many places) without being busted by police. So my players' characters mostly handle semi-auto pistols and (rarely) machine pistols. Thus PCs are investigators, not soldiers. At an average they have 9 dice for SA attack roll (+3 agility +4 skill +2 spec). If an enemy (for example, corp security as sample grunt) usually has 7 dice for defense (+4 agility +3 intuition), what's the chance for hit without cover?
SA 9d6 vs 7d6
SA burst 8d6 vs 5d6.

Yeah, I know it's quite easy to obtain laser sight or smartlink, muscle replacement, enchanced/customized cyberlimbs or muscle toner, but that all leads to necessarity of being high-end to have a high chance to hit a simple target which has no cover. Acessorized auto weapons like SMGs (gas-vent and shock pad aren't that expensive) can easily provide long bursts with high recoil compensastion (-5 to defense roll, -1 or even -0 to attack roll), I admit that. But semi-auto fire is most common in my campaign, so I found it realistic to add some chances to attackers' rolls.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (04:34:29/04-22-14)
53.37% and 61.29%.

Given how this houserule won't function outside extremely-limited campaigns, I don't think it's quite useful for others. Still, if you want unrealistic gunfights because the alternative is very-long gunfights, it's an understandable houserule.

However, do keep in mind that the target isn't just standing there, he's actively avoiding the attack. Sure, you only have ~53% chance to hit on each shot, but that's because he's trying to avoid being hit, and that's against a single attack. If two people fire at the same opponent, there's only 2/11 chance they evade both attacks, due to the defense dice dropping. And the odds we're talking about here, are the same ones you'll get with good cover with your houserule. So the PCs firing at a group of gangers in a warehouse shootout would result under your rule in people easily dropping, while without it you'd take ~3 shots per enemy to hit them, and ~2 hits per enemy to take them down. With 2 IPs per CT, that's still a gunfight that's over in only 9 seconds, much shorter than a shootout in the average tv-show or movie takes, and less rounds fired. And your PCs are at that level, they're not expert shooters, they just know how to use a gun. So of course they're not going to hit bulls-eye when firing at an enemy that's actively trying not to get shot. If the guy was simply standing there, he'd have 0 defense dice after all.

(To illustrate: A gunman fired more than 65 rounds in a shootout with the cops, he killed two people, both of which pretty much by surprise. In the actual shootout, he wounded 4 people. In another shootout, the heavily-armored bankrobbers fired 1100 rounds, one got shot over 20 times in the legs by automatic gunfire by SWAT, before then the cops didn't manage to properly damage them, aside from a few lucky hits to the arms. So that's half an hour of lotsa cops firing and not hitting, and 1100 rounds only causing 18 wounded, with assault rifles and pistols.)

So while I understand you want to keep your gunfights short, I should note it's rather unrealistic, and due to the restrictions, won't really work for near-any other table.

By the way, defense isn't agility+intuition, so I assume you typo'd there.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (05:11:41/04-22-14)
Quote
(To illustrate: A gunman fired more than 65 rounds in a shootout with the cops, he killed two people, both of which pretty much by surprise. In the actual shootout, he wounded 4 people. In another shootout, the heavily-armored bankrobbers fired 1100 rounds, one got shot over 20 times in the legs by automatic gunfire by SWAT, before then the cops didn't manage to properly damage them, aside from a few lucky hits to the arms. So that's half an hour of lotsa cops firing and not hitting, and 1100 rounds only causing 18 wounded, with assault rifles and pistols.)
I see, but that's not a straight analogy. There's a strong difference between hitting statistics in facility assault and in close quarter battle.

Quote
So while I understand you want to keep your gunfights short, I should note it's rather unrealistic, and due to the restrictions, won't really work for near-any other table.
It's realistic for CQB when there's lack of cover, but yes, it's rather unrealistic for fighting inside a building with many rooms, windows, walls etc.
But I didn't say I want my PCs to always bull-eye a security grunt with a single SA shot, because in such circumstances heavy modifiers are appliable. At least +4 for defense, and also having a full cover isn't only +4, it's a blind fire and barrier shooting situation.

Yes, my houserule may be odd in some situations, but basic rules can't provide the same balance for completely different situations. Autofire inside building will be OK with basic rules, but adequately skilled character unable to hit an uncovered target with a pistol within about 8 meters looks funny for me, IMHO. I can imagine an unskilled shooter, who fails to hit a guy, which is rolling and trying to obfuscate the shooter, but skilled shooter must hit. At least at second or third bullet.

AFAIK, Cyberpunk 2020 combat system takes into account something like what I'm talking about.
I also REALLY love SR3 system with bare Combat Pool used for defending against ranged attack. Too much bullets for you, you're short on dice in the pool? Then take your damage.

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By the way, defense isn't agility+intuition, so I assume you typo'd there.
Yeah, I meant R+I.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (07:54:45/04-22-14)
Thus PCs are investigators, not soldiers. At an average they have 9 dice for SA attack roll (+3 agility +4 skill +2 spec).
So they're weaklings using weak weapons, which is the only level at which that houserule will work. Nevermind 18+ dice (or the most extremes case of adepts eventually being able to reach 12+6+[8 to 12]+2+1 or roughly 30 dice after ~150 Karma), it already falls apart at a regular level of 12-15 dice.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (07:57:16/04-22-14)
Thus PCs are investigators, not soldiers. At an average they have 9 dice for SA attack roll (+3 agility +4 skill +2 spec).
So they're weaklings using weak weapons, which is the only level at which that houserule will work. Nevermind 18+ dice (or the most extremes case of adepts eventually being able to reach 12+6+[8 to 12]+2+1 or roughly 30 dice after ~150 Karma), it already falls apart at a regular level of 12-15 dice.

Even at a regular low level like 9 or 10 dice, it's hugely problematic.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (13:15:42/04-22-14)
I dunno, in SR4 this houserule was a basic rule (to be specific, only Reaction was applicable unless defending character used Full Defense), and it worked fine. In SR3 things were even more harsh, and it was OK too.
Police bank assault, firefight in a supermarket? Apply blind fire and barrier modificators and there will be balance (and no unrealistic accuracy).

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So they're weaklings
AFAIR, level 3 skill is considered competent in SR5 rulebook. They are not weakings, they are simply not veteran soldiers of cyberpowered superhumans. If you say that adequate chance to hit begins at 12 dice, then you have to admit that rules are matched for playing proficient fighters, because character wich is not a proficient fighter won't get an adequate chance.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Agonar on (19:53:29/05-06-14)
My house rules for Shadowrun Addiction, to take into effect multiple uses, and frequency of use.  Now, before I go into this, the reason was because there were several parts of the current Addiction rules that didn't make sense, or seemed way too complicated.  Taking into account average die rolls, someone who drinks 1 Soykaf per week will eventually hit Burnout and fall into a coma.  Yes, as Michael (who did the math) pointed out.
If you drink Soykaf ALL the time, you'd be rolling once every 10 weeks. Let's assume Soykaf is Psysiological, so Body+Willpower to resist, that's 6 dice for normal people. 2/3 chance to succeed, so once every 30 weeks you'd fail. So you'd have to be dosing on Soykaf for 2.5 years average in a row without ever taking a break to start hitting Burnout. If you're a runner with decent stats, it's 90%, so 100 weeks per failed test. That's 8 years average of constant Soykaf drinking before Burnout.
It would take years, but the Soykaf drinker will eventually hit 0 in some stats, and that just doesn't sound reasonable to me.

Another reason I wanted to come up with something slightly different, is because in the current rules, a person who takes kamikaze once per hour is just as likely to get addicted as someone who takes it once per week.  Again, to me, this just didn't seem right.  It didn't take into account binge users, and I wanted to do something to make it more risky for the frequent users, over the casual users.

So, here goes.

Quote
1.  When you roll your addiction test, you aren't trying to beat a threshold, but an opposed test (opposed test is an amount of dice = Threshold).  This makes it a little easier to resist the first use, I know, but the presumption is that users aren't going to use just once, and it gets more difficult, as seen below.
  1a. To simplify this process, the GM can allow for "Bought" hits on both sides, unless both sides have enough dice to buy the same number of Hits, then roll.  (Ultimately, addiction might not fit into everyone's game.  And partly, this is for those GMs that want to have something for those Players who took the addiction Negative Quality, but don't want to go overboard, and soon have every PC in the game addicted to something).

2.  Addiction Rating can be used to factor in the frequency in which the addiction test changes.  For Ratings 1-3, every additional use in the same day adds 1 die to the opposed roll.  For ratings 4-6, every additional use in the same week adds +1 die to the opposed roll.  And ratings 7-9, every additional use in a two week period adds +1 die to the opposed roll.
  2a.  Another way to calculate this, if you want a little more bookkeeping, is to use the Addiction Rating as the interval itself.  Something with an AR 1 would count additional uses per day, something with an AR 2 would count every 2 days, up to the big stuff counting for multiple uses within a 9 day period.  I, personally, would stick with the day/week/2 week, because it makes it easier to keep track of, in combination with 3 below.

3.  Every week you skip usage can reduce the opposed roll by 1 die.  Using the normal 2 week period for a roll, drugs with 1 die, that are skipped for the second week, are at 0 dice, so you are safe.  Or, if you want to require rolls at different intervals, you can.  Whatever the GM wants here.

4.  Under this system, you can force a roll when it is dramatically appropriate, assuming bought hits don't pass the test (see 1a).  Or, for the case of frequent users, you can require a roll, even if Bought Hits would normally pass the test.  Ultimately, this system allows for binge users to have a tougher time resisting addiction, but it doesn't severely hurt very casual users, specially causal users of things like soycaf.

The rolls are the same, Logic + Willpower for psychological, and Body + Willpower for physiological.

If you go with the rules as they are, someone with a soycaf addiction will eventually reach the burnout stage, and then start taking permanent stat reductions until they slip into a coma.  And, someone taking 10 doses of Kamikaze a day had no more trouble with addiction that someone who took 1 dose per week, and I wanted to make it harder for the binge users.

So, here's an example of how this works.

Character has a Body 3, Willpower 3, and Logic 2.  Let's say She takes some Cram, because she wants a combat Edge.  If the GM wants an immediate roll, she would roll 5 dice (psychological) vs Cram's 3 dice.  Using Bought Hits, she has 1 Hit, Cram has 0, so she is not addicted.  Since Cram's AR is 4, as long as she doesn't take another dose within the same week, she should never really have to worry about addiction.  But, if she takes another dose within a week, The opposed dice test would now roll 4 dice, enough to buy a Hit, so the GM should require an actual roll next time, Her 5 vs Cram's 4, instead of allowing the buying of Hits.

Now, if you want to keep a Threshold, instead of opposed Roll, you can.  This system allows for that, and still makes it difficult for multiple uses in an interval, just add to the threshold, instead of the opposed die roll.

Anyway.  If you want to use it, by all means.  If you have ideas to keep it effective, but simplify it a little more, I would like to hear it. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: fenrir4life on (00:00:19/05-18-14)
So, I've read the long, numerous,  and occasionally vitriolic threads regarding the state of brawler adepts in 5e, and now that it's clear that Martial Arts in 5e have been toned done somewhat from their (admittedly hilarious) 4th edition glory, I have the following suggestion to fix their damage output problem(and yes, I do believe they have a problem): Keep Critical Strike at the new, .5 pp cost, but remove the "1 rank per weapon type" cap.  I'd say "no more than half/a third your Magic, rounded up".
This may necessitate splitting Critical Strike between unarmed and armed, since the armed version does _not_ need multiple ranks.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tyrhaynes on (01:13:07/06-12-14)
My blog for Shadowrun and Scion house rules

http://scionhouserules.wordpress.com/

My latest post: Motivation of this is to limit the really weak metamagics by linking them together. These are Attunement Metamagic Qualities that any Initiate with Attunement can purchase. I am slowly working on getting all the metamagics finished, organized, and balanced. Probably get it done when the new magic book comes out.

http://scionhouserules.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/shadowrun-overhaul-magic-attunement-metamagic-qualities/

Collection of my finished Shadowrun Overhaul rules:

http://scionhouserules.wordpress.com/compendium/
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tyrhaynes on (04:36:00/06-19-14)
http://scionhouserules.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/shadowrun-overhaul-new-metamagic-astral-protrusion/

http://scionhouserules.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/shadowrun-overhaul-new-metamagical-quality-astral-impersonation/
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tyrhaynes on (17:25:44/06-22-14)
http://scionhouserules.wordpress.com/2014/06/22/shadowrun-overhaul-metamagics-in-fifth-edition/

Latest post on a collection of metamagics.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tombstone on (13:09:03/06-23-14)
After taking a good hard look at Direct Damage Spells i decided to buff them up. I know how OP they were in the good old days, but in SR5, they dont seem to be worth the trouble AT ALL. There is virtually no situation in which an Indirect Combat Spell wouldnt be better, and even worse, there is no real incentive to use them at high Forcelevel at all.

So: Half the Value of the Force Level is the basic damage, +the Successes. For example a Force 8 Manabolt would start at 4 Damage+Dice.

What do you think, too OP?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (06:39:59/06-24-14)
Direct Combat spells actually have a pretty valuable function - compared to other options, they're damn effective against hardened or difficult to hit targets.

And I do have concerns - though I haven't run the numbers just yet - that bring in that base damage would, in combination with the single-roll, single contributor defense (compared to the dual roll, multi-contributor defense for indirect) could be imbalanced.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tombstone on (11:11:05/06-24-14)
Yeah i know what you mean. On the other hand, it just feels WRONG that a Force 12 Stunbolt in all likelyhood wont even knock out a Street Bum. (Unless you have ridicolously high stats/Foci/stuff).

Since i have no munchkins in my group who wring out every last bit of effectiveness, i guess ill just give that rule a tentative try and see how/if it works.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tyrhaynes on (17:21:36/06-24-14)
Shielding Qualities.

http://scionhouserules.wordpress.com/2014/06/24/shadowrun-overhaul-shielding-metamagical-qualities/

And Tombstone this is my grunt rule to handle that specific issue:

http://scionhouserules.wordpress.com/2014/06/14/shadowrun-overhaul-gm-optional-combat-rule-for-grunts/
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (00:51:37/06-25-14)
Yeah i know what you mean. On the other hand, it just feels WRONG that a Force 12 Stunbolt in all likelyhood wont even knock out a Street Bum. (Unless you have ridicolously high stats/Foci/stuff).

Since i have no munchkins in my group who wring out every last bit of effectiveness, i guess ill just give that rule a tentative try and see how/if it works.

Give me a day or two, I'll get some numbers together for you when I'm not so busy (probably for a few different power levels along both sides of things).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tombstone on (07:12:12/06-25-14)
@Tyrhaines: Thanks a bunch, that is a very solid suggestion.

@Rhat: Id appreciate that, i am pretty curious myself how those numbers stack up.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Agonar on (01:30:51/06-28-14)
Yeah i know what you mean. On the other hand, it just feels WRONG that a Force 12 Stunbolt in all likelyhood wont even knock out a Street Bum. (Unless you have ridicolously high stats/Foci/stuff).

Since i have no munchkins in my group who wring out every last bit of effectiveness, i guess ill just give that rule a tentative try and see how/if it works.

I have a Mage in my group that uses stunbolt to very high success.  He rarely casts a F12 though.  He'll go with a much lower Force, and then just use reagents to set the limit, and Edge to reroll Failures.  And he can fairly reliably knock out that street bum.  Using stunball with the same tactics makes him dangerous to a large number of low willpower targets.

Just because Direct spells aren't as overpowered as they were in SR4, doesn't make them weak in sr5.  It's all about how you use them, who you target with them, and the amount of Reagents to use to mess with the limit when casting.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: voydangel on (05:03:35/07-05-14)
The only serious issues we've found so far with 5e is related to spirits and a few spells. Spells are easy to deal with - just go with GM approval, etc. but the spirit rules... eek. We have been tweaking with them rather a lot trying to get them to not feel too OP. We've tried lots of different things, some have been ok, others not so much. But I think we have a winner here now. Doing theory crafting after each session to debrief each other as to whether we think things are still OP or too hard or what have you.

Starting our next session, the spirit rules we are going to be running with (which we all agreed upon) are as follows:

1. When summoning a spirit, you must resist Drain equal to the number of hits the spirit scores on its "summon resistance" roll (vs. your magic + Summoning) times 3 (instead of x2).
2. Drain caused by summon (or attempting to summon) spirits is always Stun damage regardless of the spirits force compared to your Magic. It can overflow and become physical as normal.
3. When gaining hardened armor from being materialized, spirits only gain their force times 1.5 in hardened Armor (instead of x2). All other rules for hardened armor remain unchanged.

What do you guys think? Any theory crafting/thoughts ?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (06:55:40/07-05-14)
Putting aside the many non-houserule methods to counter spirits, I don't get the second houserule: won't that just encourage oversummoning, since you can't die from it and magicians will typically have a bigger Stun track than Physical track?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: voydangel on (14:54:38/07-05-14)
The main reason we're trying that out is because with the other nerfs we were a little afraid of the spirit summoning rules/spirits being "over-nerfed". and with the drain being x3, we didn't want to kill all of the mages. Also, the hits x3 drain code seems to discourage over-summoning fairly well without it needing to be physical.

Incidentally, which all non-house rule methods are you referring to? Physically attacking a spirit is generally uselss, and even banishing often hurts the banisher more than the summoner/spirit, and even if successful, they just resummon a spirit next round.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (19:57:41/07-05-14)
Incidentally, which all non-house rule methods are you referring to? Physically attacking a spirit is generally uselss, and even banishing often hurts the banisher more than the summoner/spirit, and even if successful, they just resummon a spirit next round.
Well, there's way too many several topics about whether spirits are overpowered, but just off the top of my head:
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: voydangel on (01:02:39/07-06-14)
Yea, so, that's all fine and good for a force 6 spirit, which we don't really have problems with, but when a character can summon a force 9 spirit and only take 2 or 3 drain, and is smart enough to not stand out in the middle of the firefight to get himself geeked, most of that goes out the window.

18 defense dice + 18 hardened armor (with 27 soak dice) + an attack that has 19 dice to hit with and deals 18+ dmg per hit and a rather decent initiative score for minimal to no risk is the kind of broken that's really really hard to counter, both in game, and argument wise.

In my humble opinion, this needs mechanical fixes. But, hey, maybe it's just me.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (04:07:45/07-06-14)
Yea, so, that's all fine and good for a force 6 spirit, which we don't really have problems with, but when a character can summon a force 9 spirit and only take 2 or 3 drain, and is smart enough to not stand out in the middle of the firefight to get himself geeked, most of that goes out the window.

Again, Edge on oversummoning - 14 exploding dice has a reasonably strong chance of killing the summoner outright.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (07:49:39/07-06-14)
Yea, so, that's all fine and good for a force 6 spirit, which we don't really have problems with, but when a character can summon a force 9 spirit and only take 2 or 3 drain, and is smart enough to not stand out in the middle of the firefight to get himself geeked, most of that goes out the window.
Which is exactly why I mentioned the Edge-on-oversummoning bit: round Edge up for spirits, and that Force 9 spirit will roll 14 exploding dice, which has 2 very important effects:
Because of this, and because frequently throwing around Force-9 spirits will result in heightened anti-magic defenses sooner or later, you don't really need to balance things around Force-9 spirits, just Force-6 or Force-7. And like I said, assault rifles with APDS will do plenty to even the odds against those. And even against high-Force spirits, all you really need is astral scanners to detect those dual-natured spirits.

Like I said, there's been a lot of topics about whether summoning is overpowered, and the answer is "only if the GM doesn't understand and use its weaknesses".
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (16:45:32/07-06-14)
Would it be reasonable to change the Magician benefits of Mentor Spirits for Conjuror adepts to +2 dice to an appropriate Spirit?  Hardly any of them have a Magician benefit usable by a Conjuror Adept.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: voydangel on (17:02:15/07-06-14)
Ok, sounds like a fair suggestion, I will mention it to my GM (I'm actually a player for once!!!) and see what he thinks about just using edge for his summoning resistance rolls

Quick clarification: Can any spirit being summoned use edge to resist, or only spirits with a force above the summoners magic rating?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (04:53:00/07-07-14)
Ok, sounds like a fair suggestion, I will mention it to my GM (I'm actually a player for once!!!) and see what he thinks about just using edge for his summoning resistance rolls
Quick clarification: Can any spirit being summoned use edge to resist, or only spirits with a force above the summoners magic rating?
They can, but should not. They might depending on Spirit Index, though.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (04:54:28/07-07-14)
Quick clarification: Can any spirit being summoned use edge to resist, or only spirits with a force above the summoners magic rating?

Sure, but it would be highly unwise to have all spirits do so.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on (05:03:08/07-07-14)
From what I understand, Spirits don't particularly mind being summoned. It's how they get... spirit stuff? So most spirits wouldn't spend Edge trying to resist it. But they could; at that point they're an NPC under GM control.

The GM should probably reserve that for special situations though. Like oversummoning, or Spirit Bane, or high spirit index. It's a GM call.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (05:17:00/07-07-14)
Sorry, this spirit index - is it a new thing in Street Grimoire?  I don't think I've heard about it before.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (05:30:20/07-07-14)
Yes, something like Notoriety.
You get it by disrupting spirits and rebinding. It accumulates faster if you let it resist your drain, use long-term binding or fettering or spell binding. Even exposition to toxicity/corruption gives you an increase.
It finally gives you a dicepool penalty for interaction with spirits, so social skills and of the whole Summoning skill group (yes, even Banishing).

You can reduce it by atonement, taking a geas and may prevent it from accumulating by spending reagents.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (06:29:07/07-07-14)
That is...  A pretty good start to something I've wanted to see for a while, actually.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Ryo on (15:23:28/07-07-14)
Yeah, the spirit index stuff is the one solid Pro in Street Grimoire. Most of the rest of the book just feels like a copy+paste job from Street Magic, except Street Magic was better formatted, had more stuff and less errors. But the Spirit Index is something I've always wanted, since reputation is so important to keep summoners in line.

It's not as robust as it could be, but I'm not complaining that they tried.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (16:43:13/07-07-14)
So does the "disrupting" point also apply if you, for example, shoot an enemy spirit in the face, or only if a spirit you summoned get disrupted?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on (16:53:50/07-07-14)
I assumed it applied only if you disrupted the spirit. Surely it's not both?

It's a rather harsh rule anyway. Why can't people fight hostile spirits?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (19:35:15/07-07-14)
I assumed it applied only if you disrupted the spirit. Surely it's not both?

It's a rather harsh rule anyway. Why can't people fight hostile spirits?

You can, but if you're a lover of spirits you probably see them more as slaves anyway.  Kill the master instead.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (21:57:13/07-09-14)
Moving this over for GenPop review and availability ...

For faster/easier movement tracking:

Everyone gets four basic 'movement points' per Turn.  Each movement point equates to moving their Agility in meters.  They can move less than the full amount if they want, but if they do, that movement point is still used.


If you want to make this a cyclical sort of thing, then characters' movement point allowance regenerates equal to the number of movement points used last Turn during this initiative point; if a character has a lower initiative than last time, s/he should regenerate those MPs more readily (i.e. regenerate last Turn's IP 1 and 2 on this turn's IP 1, if last turn had 4 IPs and this one only has 2).  This keeps the maximum movement at 4 IPs per rolling Turn, which in turn means that you can't actually make the Run + Run on immediately-subsequent initiative passes if you're a hyper-fast guy, because you won't regenerate those MPs until next Turn.

Here's the kicker for this second suggestion: you continue to have Running penalties until you once again possess at least 3 movement points.  To boot, if they want to continue to get more than their one 'regenerated' movement point's worth of distance, they continue to have to use a complex action to Sprint.

This makes movement tracking easy - "Okay, Mook 3 and Mook 5 have used 1 point each, they're still fine, but Mook 4 has used 2 and wants to use another movement point, so he's now Running" - AND does not require you to track precisely how far each mook has run.

You might also allow for a basic 1m of movement per Initiative pass, just to allow for shifting and the like.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Tyrhaynes on (04:20:01/07-12-14)
http://scionhouserules.wordpress.com/2014/07/12/shadowrun-overhaul-introduction-to-initiation/
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Valkyrie on (08:46:53/07-30-14)
I've got a doozie.  So I'm of the school of thought that technomancers aren't up to par.  I feel they should be able to make much better hackers than I feel the rules allow. I know there are differing (and valid for both sides) opinions on this, and I'm not here to argue that point, I just wanted to explain my rationale and goal for the following (some of these are taken from previous posts, thanks for the ideas everyone):

General

Move the whole cost one priority down. Original A benefits at B level, etc (Since skills and attributes are so critical for a technomancer who wants to be an amazing hacker, I felt the priority system was too restrictive for this to work)

-I'm bringing in streams from 4th.

-I'm bringing in paragons (they'll basically be equivalent in power and cost to mentor spirits)

-Technomancers can form their own PAN and slave devices, but their device rating is treated as half their Resonance (round up) for these purposes.

Complex Forms

-Fading values of the following complex forms have changed:

Cleaner: L-2
Diffusion of [Matrix Attribute]: L
Editor: L-2
Infusion of [Matrix Attribute]: L-1
Pulse Storm: L-2
Puppeteer: L-1
Resonance Spike: L-3
Resonance Veil: L
Static Bomb: L-1

I tried to bring these in line with spells of similar impact and function.

New Complex Form:

Resonance Tunneling
Target: Host on which you have at least 1 mark / Duration: S / FV: L
You connect to your sprite with a thread of resonant code, allowing it to enter a host without having to use a remote task. You can continue to command the sprite from outside the host. Make a simple Software + Resonance [Level] test with a threshold equal to half the host's rating (round up). Success keeps you connected to your sprite as if it had not left your virtual presence.

Sprites

-I'll be converting the various sprites from Unwired

-Sprites mental attributes will now differ more based on type.  I'll get those together some time later.

-Sprites get a number of programs appropriate to their type equal to their level/3 (round up).

-Sprites' skills are equal to their level. (I couldn't find this mentioned in the text.  I feel it was probably just accidentally left out)

-To balance the crazy overwatch thing with sprites, the matrix has trouble recognizing sprites.  They are always considered to be running silently from the perspective of non-resonance entities with no penalty to their actions.  They cannot run silently with respect to resonance entities.

-Sprites with 3 marks on something can transfer one mark to the technomancer than compiled them as a complex action. This uses one task.

Submersion

-Submersion costs 10+(new grade*3) karma.  I feel the book's value is a typo (and if it isn't, it's too crazy high for me to consider).

-The Program Echo is replaced by Emulation (detailed below).

-Any echo increasing a Matrix Attribute increases it by the [Submergence grade]/2 (round up).  These cannot be taken multiple times

"New" Echoes (Most Shamelessly stolen from 4e)

Emulation
The technomancer may run up to her submergence grade in common or hacking programs. She can learn up to [Resonance] programs, [Resonance x2] if this echo is taken twice. Each program costs 1 karma to learn.  These programs can be swapped out just like a Decker's. A technomancer cannot emulate agents or autosofts.

Blur
Since any uses of Resonance leave a Matrix signature via sprites and complex forms, technomancers can cover their tracks more efficiently with the Blur echo. This echo creates a diffuse resonant “fingerprint” that is hard to identify and recognize later. Increase the threshold for Matrix Perception Tests to detect the technomancer’s signature by her submersion grade.

Defragmentation
With this echo, the technomancer is able to heal Matrix damage done to his living persona. He can only heal damage that would  affect  the  living  persona, not damage to his meat body from Black IC programs or Fading. To perform Defragmentation of his living persona, the technomancer makes a Resonance + Willpower (1 Combat Turn) Extended Test. Each hit regenerates one box of damage. The technomancer may not perform any other action while undergoing Defragmentation. Any damage remaining after using Defragmentation must be healed through normal rest.

Info Sortilege
The Info Sortilege echo gives the technomancer an intuitive feel for the way information links together—he can almost “feel” the right route to pursue when gathering information. More importantly, this echo enables the technomancer to analyze data he has collected for clues that will give him insight into hidden facts, allowing him to make deductions and uncover hidden connections. Some technomancers believe that they can even read the future in the Matrix by observing how the data about a person, location, or event behaves and flows.
A technomancer with this echo must possess the Computer skill. To use Info Sortilege, the submerged technomancer must first gather a small hoard of data on the subject. He then enters a mild trance state that will reveal data vestiges, links, and traces that are normally lost in the noise of the code. The insights and information from following these datatrails should be beyond what mere search operations or basic research would uncover.
Mechanically, with a suitable amount of data at hand (at least two hits in a simple Matrix Search), the seeker declares her intent to use Info Sortilege and enters a mild trance (–2 dice pool modifier to all other actions). She must then make a Computer + Resonance Test (Data Search Specialization applies) to follow the thin datatrail in the Matrix like a sleepwalker. The more hits the technomancer scores on this test, the more hidden pieces fall into place to reveal the bigger picture, how information about the subject intertwines and relates to each other. Depending how information is hidden, the search might also lead the technomancer to devices or hosts that have to be hacked to acquire the information therein.

Sift
Technomancers who possess this echo can intuitively sift through massive amounts of data to find the appropriate information they are looking for. In game terms, the threshold for Matrix Search Tests is reduced by the technomancer’s submersion grade.

Skinlink
A technomancer with this echo gains the ability to use his skin as connection to other devices, similar to an integral skinlink. The technomancer can use this link to hack any device he touches, even if wireless signals are jammed. Note that the device does not need to have skinlink adaptation. Two technomancers with this echo may mentally communicate with each other simply by touching.

Final Thoughts

This stuff makes Technomancers good, but I don't want to eliminate the decker as a valid and potent option.  Have I gone too far?  What are good ways to either reign this in or to give deckers a slight boost so they don't get left behind?  In my mind right now, deckers have a versatility edge, since they can more easily reconfigure their deck, while I've left the technomancer matrix stats fixed.  Deckers still have a solid program advantage from the outset, though with enough time and submergence a technomancer can catch up.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (15:50:37/08-12-14)
Capsule rounds seem to be a bit overpowered, so I've tried to design a houserule in order to mitigate that.

As Run&Gun mentions that single dose of toxin is enough for filling 5 rounds, it would be fluff-wise to say that single bullet brings toxin with 1/5 of standard dose's Power, e.g. narcoject payload would have Power 3 (15/5).
But RAW, IIRC, doesn't regulate number of bullets that hit the target while shooting bursts and full auto (GM can interpret high number of net hits as 3 bullets put straightly into the target or as 1 bullet put into a heart, from game mechanics' point of view it's all the same). For the purpose of houseruling capsule ammo number of net hits = number of bullets wich actually hit the target and bring the payload onto enemy's skin. Of course, maximum number of bullets which hit the target can't be higher than actual number of bullets for current attack (1 for SS and SA, 3 for short burst and SA-burst, 6 for long burst and Simple Full Auto, etc.).
As capsule ammo impacts and releases payload even via grazing hit, grazing hit itself is counted as "free net hit". So with 1 actual net hit shooter will put 2 bullets at his target (1 for grazing hit and 1 for actual net hit).

For example, sammy shoots 6-round Full Auto and wins Opposed Test with 2 net hits. 3 bullets hit the target, thus payload toxin's Power is 3/5 of standard dose's Power. Sammy's rounds were loaded with narcoject, basic Power 15.

15 x 3 / 5 = 9.
Target will make Toxin resistance test against Power 9.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (09:09:32/09-19-14)
I'm considering an alternative ruling for "Target defended against previous attack" cumulative modifier:

1) change words "since his last Action Phase" with "since the beginning or the current Combat Turn". So character's Action Phase doesn't reset that modifier for him anymore.

or

2) instead of accumulating -1 modifier for any previous attack, pile up modifiers based on firing modes (-1 for defending against previous SS/SA, -2 for defending against previous SA burst/burst, -5 for defending, against previous long burst/Simple FA, -9 for defending against  previous Complex FA).
So if you must defend against incoming burst fire and you've already defended against SA attack and Simple FA attack since you last action phase, you'll suffer -8 modifier: -1 for previous SA, -5 for previous Simple FA, -2 for current BF.

The reason is I hate situations when someone can easily dodge several simple SA/SA burst attacks with null sweat without any cover, standing in the middle of the room.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (01:18:00/09-22-14)
Then learn to shoot better or try something different that can't be dodged. Otherwise you're cheating people who invested in their defense pool.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (03:11:46/09-23-14)
Nope, I just want to prevent people from standing straight when lead is flying around. They shall use cover instead.

Quote
try something different that can't be dodged
Sure, that won't be cheating against those with high defense dice pools  ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: RHat on (20:48:41/09-24-14)
Nope, I just want to prevent people from standing straight when lead is flying around. They shall use cover instead.

First, your houserule destroys the benefits of cover, as well.  It further means that everyone HAS to build a combat character, or they're going to lose their character the instant a fight breaks out.  And besides that, you're basing this on a false assumption - that you can stand stock-still in the middle of a room and get a defense roll; you don't.  The defense roll represents moving in ways intended to make yourself more difficult to hit, and keeping out of the enemy's line of fire.  If you're actually standing still, no roll to be had.

And are you really so shocked that people with superhuman reflexes and/or senses are, well, superhuman?  If someone has Combat Sense 6, Intuition 5, and Reaction 5 ( 8 ), they very well should be almost impossible to hit - that's a massive player investment, but more importantly, the character actually has freaking Spidey-Senses.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (05:22:34/09-25-14)
Quote
First, your houserule destroys the benefits of cover, as well.
Not at all. (x+4)>x
Quote
It further means that everyone HAS to build a combat character, or they're going to lose their character the instant a fight breaks out.
No, that means they should take cover (full cover with high Armor is preferable) and use other combat options for defense. Full Defense isn't just a good addition, sometimes it's necessary, e.g. when several folks are shooting at you at once.
Quote
If someone has Combat Sense 6, Intuition 5, and Reaction 5 ( 8 ),
My house rule won't abuse those with dice pools worth 19 dice. Even two Simple Full-Auto attacks in a row will leave them with 9 dice for defense, 11 dice with running, about 14-15 with Full Defense, and back to 18-19 will good cover.

Non-optimized character with basic 8 dice (fine decker with Int 5, Rea 3; or moderate fighter with Rea 5, Int 3) can have 10 dice with running, 13-14 with Full Defense, 18 with good cover. Under my house rule two SA-bursts in a row will leave him with 13-14 dice with cover, 9-10 dice without it. These numbers aren't too low.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (07:58:52/09-25-14)
SR5 upped damage, and to compensate, armor and dodge dice. Taking away one of the compensating factors just makes things more deadly.

Quote
It further means that everyone HAS to build a combat character, or they're going to lose their character the instant a fight breaks out.
No, that means they should take cover (full cover with high Armor is preferable) and use other combat options for defense. Full Defense isn't just a good addition, sometimes it's necessary, e.g. when several folks are shooting at you at once.
I guess you missed the topic about how full cover is actually counterproductive because the barrier will only absorb 1 point of damage.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: decPL on (09:02:05/09-25-14)
I guess you missed the topic about how full cover is actually counterproductive because the barrier will only absorb 1 point of damage.
Reading throught that topic again (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17786.0 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17786.0)), I'm under the impression that while full cover is counterproductive for a high-defense char, there seems to be a consensus that the barrier stops [ROLL: Structure + Armor] + 1 points of damage (though I'm might be biased here, as I was one of those convinced by that interpretation).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (10:03:10/09-25-14)
Quote
I guess you missed the topic about how full cover is actually counterproductive because the barrier will only absorb 1 point of damage.
Actually I started that. And, as decPL has just mentioned, there was an interpretation under wich Penetration Weapons rules are to be applied AFTER Armor+Structure roll. It can result in a very good damage absorbtion, especially with Heavy Material or harder.

Also I still think that rules from the book are screwed, as SR5 is the only fragging Shadowrun edition (and possibly the only high-tech RPG) where shooting blind is easier than aimed shooting (SR3, IIRC, gave +7 TN modifier, SR4A allowed normal defense roll with Good Cover bonus). Uh, and also in SR5 SA/SS fire is more productive for shooting fully covered target than BF/FA, just brilliant.
So I houserule it as well.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (10:54:31/09-25-14)
Uh, and also in SR5 SA/SS fire is more productive for shooting fully covered target than BF/FA, just brilliant.
Unless you implement the optional rule for that situation from Run&Gun, plus if the enemy uses a periscope they will still see the attack coming and have a defense roll. But just to be clear, what you're desiring is that if 4 lousy gangers focus Long Bursts at someone, they WILL get hit?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (03:23:47/09-26-14)
Quote
But just to be clear, what you're desiring is that if 4 lousy gangers focus Long Bursts at someone, they WILL get hit?
No, I have another purpose. See, 6-rounds burst results in -5 defense modifier. 10-rounds burst results in -9 defense modifier. Three consecutive (or even simultaneous - Delayed Actions make it possible) Semi-Auto bursts, which is 9 rounds in total, result in -4 modifier. I find it unfair.

Quote
plus if the enemy uses a periscope they will still see the attack coming and have a defense roll.
A distinctive feature of Shadowrun 5ed rules discussion is a trick "yes, it's X, but you can Z", where Z is a quite questionable thing.

Just imagine. A new guy comes to play Shadowrun at my table. He's a generic folk familiar with tactical video games like Jagged Alliance and XCOM, and war films like Saving Private Ryan, so his main idea about avoiding bullets is taking cover. However, he builds an adept with 14+ defense dice pool, just in case. He dodges several ranged attacks, but at a certain point he understands it's getting too dangerous even for him, thus he moves and hides behind a wall.
BANG! He's been shot. That goon with SA pistol rolled 4 dice (10 basic - 6 Blind Fire) against adept's 4 dice and won.

- Hey, Erling, I think it's not fair. Full cover must make hitting me much more difficult. I had 14 dice without it, then why on earth I have only 4 dice now?
- Errm... You know, you could use a periscope.
- What?! A periscope? How was I supposed to use a periscope being behind a wall, far from its side?

I don't think that guy would come again.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (03:34:46/09-26-14)
Erling, that begs for a house rule in regards to the modification of the cover rules, not for nerfing those people who are built to evade that full-auto spray.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Acolyte on (04:09:40/09-26-14)
Hmm. correct me if I'm wrong, but cover simply adds to your defence roll, neh? The blind fire only applies to the attacker and as long as the defender is aware of attacks and can move, they still get a defence roll. Your adept would get 18 defence dice, if I'm reading the rules correctly. The only case where you'd only get the cover is if the adept was unaware. Good reason to go into heavy enough cover to block the shot.

Perhaps the attacker needs to make a perception check with a threshold - or verus stealth - to even know where to aim, otherwise the attack misses or maybe the attacker having lost track of the adept can opt not to shoot. For example, the adept runs out the door. Did he go just around the corner, or is he down the hall? Did he go just around the corner and drop prone? Perception check. He's an adept, there's a good chance the freaky monky's on the ceiling. If the attacker can't tell, most times they'll not shoot. Well, maybe if they got full auto they can try to suppress the hall outside.

Just a couple of thoughts.
   - Shane

Edit: just looked up the rules, and the "Defender Unaware of Attack" specifically does not apply to defenders already in combat, as per your example. Instead, the attacker would get the +2 "Character has Superior Position" bonus for having better awareness - he know where and when the shot's coming. Goon would roll 6 dice (10 - 6 blind +2 better position defender blind) vs the 18 of the Adept (14 + 4 good cover).

Hope it helps!
   - Shane
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (04:50:32/09-26-14)
Quote
Edit: just looked up the rules, and the "Defender Unaware of Attack" specifically does not apply to defenders already in combat, as per your example. Instead, the attacker would get the +2 "Character has Superior Position" bonus for having better awareness - he know where and when the shot's coming. Goon would roll 6 dice (10 - 6 blind +2 better position defender blind) vs the 18 of the Adept (14 + 4 good cover).
"Superior Position" is a melee-only bonus under RAW. Also rule from p. 197 strictly mentions that fully-covered target is considered unaware of attack. Maybe developers implied another ruling, bur most forum dwellers are sure that fully covered target gets only 4 dice roll.

But I understand and appreciate your flow of thought. House rule "Attacker rolls with Agi+Skill-6, defender rolls Rea+Int+4" is exactly what I use at my table, though I think about following the SR4A concept and making attacker roll Int+Skill-6, as novahot cyberlimbs can't help you hit hidden target.

I also thought about making shooting through full cover a Simple Test with threshold based on a rate of fire and cover size. E.g. hitting a target which is behind 3-meters wall would be 8 for SA-single/SS, 6 for SA-burst/Short burst, 5 for Long Burst/Simple FA, 4 for Compex FA. Or something like that.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: S.Miles on (05:26:59/09-26-14)
Don't make it too complicated by adding additional numbers and rules to the cover. If you can keep it simple but working, keep it simple and working ;)
I think the -6 for Attacker and +4 for Defender is quite good.

Smart opponents might still wait for the character to leave his cover, if only a bit. I think, delaying his action till the covered character leaves cover (even if only a bit) should grant the attacker the first Action before the covered character acts.

Additionally: Always remember throwing grenades behind cover to chase those frightened chickens out of there. Or use Chunky Salsa to make their day even worse.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (05:29:05/09-26-14)
Quote
Erling, that begs for a house rule in regards to the modification of the cover rules, not for nerfing those people who are built to evade that full-auto spray.
It begs for house rules for both issues.

On one hand, dodging 9 bullets (3 simultaneous SA bursts) must be difficult. Maybe not as difficult as dodging 9 bullets shot from FA-weapon ("not enough ammo"+Complex FA, -8 defense modifier), but at least -6 (-2 x 3).
On the other hand, cover must be you friend. It gives your enemy -6 attack modifier, and it also provides you +4 defense bonus. And even if you'll get hit, damage will be reduced due to Penetration Weapons rules and (if you interpret rules in a certain way) due to Structure+Armor roll.

Someone may say "OK, maybe 3 simultaneous SA-bursts or short bursts must be a tougher thing to dodge. Let it be cumulative -2 per burst. But you make simultaneous FA-bursts almost impossible to dodge! You're nerfing adepts with high defense dice pools!"

No, I don't. Average NPC will have -2 attack modifier due to recoil with Simple FA/long burst (6 rounds minus 1 free RC point, 1 for Str, 2 for weapon mods), -6 modifier with Complex FA. Now add -6 Blind Fire modifier for the total of -8/-12! Many NPCs will have no chance to hit you.
Also really cool dodger can still have a defense roll (14 in base, +4 cover, - 15 from 6+9 bullets, end up with 3 dice - not bad, escpecially since shooter has from -8 to -12 attack modifier).

And even if you get hit (if you're under attack by corp spec ops with attack dice pool 14+), you will have at least 3 boxes of damage reduction if enemy shot 6 rounds, and at least 4 boxes damage reduction if he shot 9 rounds. Add some from Armor+Structure roll (if you interpret rules that way). Add you own damage resistance roll. Eventually you may end up with 1-2 boxes of stun damage of with no damage at all.

The result is:
1) dodging multiple attacks is difficult;
2) cover saves.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (05:35:42/09-26-14)
Quote
I think the -6 for Attacker and +4 for Defender is quite good.
Fair enough :) At least it prevents full cover from being nerfed.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Acolyte on (05:41:48/09-26-14)
Ah, you are correct about the Superior Position being melee only. My bad. However, pg 189 under Defender Unaware specifically says that this does not apply to characters already in combat. Pg 197 says different.

What you have here are two game mechanically sound rules that seem to contradict each other. As a GM, I'd take it to the group to see which one makes sense, not in terms of "realism" but for the game. I'd be learry of trying too hard to inject realism into a game where a cybernetically enhanced troll with a bazooka might decide to cast a fireball at you.

I do like the simple test with threshold, though. One thing to keep in mind, with the combination of -6 to hit and +4 defence, you've already penalized the attacker by a net 10 dice. Could be that's enough.

   - Shane
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: S.Miles on (05:47:06/09-26-14)
The 10 net dice simply cause the attacker to think twice. Not shooting every Action phase might actually be a good idea sometimes ;) There are plenty of things you can do during combat. Shooting people behind hard cover is probably not the best of them.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (05:55:50/09-26-14)
On one hand, dodging 9 bullets (3 simultaneous SA bursts) must be difficult.
It's not simultaneous. People aren't perfect, you're not facing a machine perfectly orchestrating those bullets. That's why you can get hit 3x but also 0x. If there WAS a perfect enemy, then wouldn't it be technically a 9-round burst with perhaps a slight GM-call flanking bonus to increase the defense penalty?

Of course technically there can be systems that let you combine the fire. Now in SR4, I had a simple houserule for this when the players were involved in a military anti-paracritter operation. The TacNet had been modified and if people delayed to the exact same time, like you would do with a Small Unit Tactics maneuver in SR5, then a simple rule applied: All fire was simultaneous and the highest defense penalty (from multiple attacks) applied to ALL attacks. No silly "just four gangers firing long bursts is enough for you to take a guaranteed hit despite them being sucky at shooting and the spraying being as sucky as their praying."

Oh and yes you ARE nerfing people with high defense pools. That is what your entire idea is about. The only question is whether the nerf makes sense, not whether a nerf exists. Now if I were to claim you are forcing people to get massive defense dice pools, or telling the players with high defense pools that you want them to kill off their characters, THAT you could believably deny with arguments and intent.

The 10 net dice simply cause the attacker to think twice. Not shooting every Action phase might actually be a good idea sometimes ;) There are plenty of things you can do during combat. Shooting people behind hard cover is probably not the best of them.
I agree with Miles btw, if an enemy is behind good cover and uses a periscope to still have a defense test, giving him +4 rather than 4 defense dice while the attacker loses 6 dice, you simply throw a grenade to flush him out. I used the Run-From-Grenades rules from Run&Gun in Missions, playing Carbon Copy, and that fight was delightfully tactical. Even though the scene took 2 hours, the players, even the not-really-into-combat players, greatly enjoyed it!
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (06:00:12/09-26-14)
Quote
The 10 net dice simply cause the attacker to think twice. Not shooting every Action phase might actually be a good idea sometimes ;) There are plenty of things you can do during combat. Shooting people behind hard cover is probably not the best of them.
Damn straight. And that's my intention, after all: tactical combat.

You're under heavy fire. Take full cover behind a low wall. Make pop-up attack (stand up Simple + shoot Simple + kneel Free). Wait for your next Action Phase. Use sprint to retreat. Ask your buddy to start suppressive fire.

The enemy's behind full cover (a wall or something like that). Move and flank him. Through grenade if you have one. Delay action and wait until he'll show up.

With "full cover provides only 4 dice pool and burns you Rea+Int roll" rule cover isn't so useful, and combat isn't so tactical.

Quote
However, pg 189 under Defender Unaware specifically says that this does not apply to characters already in combat. Pg 197 says different.
Yeah, you're right.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (06:07:53/09-26-14)
Okay, let me just note something really important: Those 4 dice vs -6? That's IF they even know where you are! Which requires secondary sight (drones, ARO, stuff like that) or them obviously seeing your gun sticking out, or hearing where you are, etc. So if you dive into a corridor and they fire through the wall, they won't be able to hit you just like that.

I had players hack marks, then use Trace Icon + AROs to let everyone see where the enemies were. That was a perfect appliance of the -6 vs 4 dice. But without it, spraying the building likely wouldn't have hit a single person. I had a player use their vision gear to give the sniper sight of the enemies, who used that to reason where he had to fire. Shot a bug spirit through two walls. That's lovely tactical combat. Using Periscopes to be behind Full Cover yet still being able to see the enemy's attacks coming and being able to fire at them? That's tactical combat. It's already all in the system.

By the way, Defender Unaware makes clear not being able to see the attack counts. So yes, normally in combat it doesn't matter that the enemy comes from behind or whatever. But if it's a sniper, or your sightline is completely blocked, you fail. Basically, in combat you'd assume 360-degrees vision for your players, so only things they still cannot see can catch them unaware. Full Cover without periscope means unaware, while 99% cover (or 100% cover with periscope) means not unaware so +4 dice for you. If you're behind full cover with the periscope, the enemy takes a -6 and wants to use a grenade, if you're behind 99% cover a good shot can still hit you just fine, or flush you with tactical combat. So again, already in the system.

So the question is: Is it bad that a bunch of poor shots that spray a lot of ammo in the timespan of 1 second still miss the super-reactive dodge monster that's going all movie-crazy on them? I don't think so myself. And a single lucky shot still kills.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Erling on (09:54:13/09-26-14)
I agree with Miles btw, if an enemy is behind good cover and uses a periscope to still have a defense test, giving him +4 rather than 4 defense dice while the attacker loses 6 dice, you simply throw a grenade to flush him out.
I'm not sure if Miles implied using a periscope.

Oh and yes you ARE nerfing people with high defense pools. That is what your entire idea is about. The only question is whether the nerf makes sense, not whether a nerf exists. Now if I were to claim you are forcing people to get massive defense dice pools, or telling the players with high defense pools that you want them to kill off their characters, THAT you could believably deny with arguments and intent.
OK, I got it.

No silly "just four gangers firing long bursts is enough for you to take a guaranteed hit despite them being sucky at shooting and the spraying being as sucky as their praying."
In fact I do believe that dodging 4 bursts in a row being at short range must be very difficult. And btw in SR5 even sample gangers roll 8 dice for attack (9 with aim). That's a pretty good dice pool. For a ganger.

"Guaranteed hit even being sucky" is a feature of the system, not my invention. Most hi-tech RPGs (including SR1-3) roll attacker's abilities (skills or attributes) against a certain difficulty level (Target Number), and if attacker succeeds, target rolls for dodge. But SR5 doesn't mix up Simple and Opposed tests, so attacker doesn't need to roll good - he just needs to roll better than target does. So if you have small defense dice pool (or it was reduced by modifiers), yes, sucky shooter will hit you.

Okay, let me just note something really important: Those 4 dice vs -6? That's IF they even know where you are! Which requires secondary sight (drones, ARO, stuff like that) or them obviously seeing your gun sticking out, or hearing where you are, etc. So if you dive into a corridor and they fire through the wall, they won't be able to hit you just like that.
That's a very important proposition, because it makes full cover even more useful than with "-6 for attacker, +4 for defender and no periscopes". In wich situations would you consider attackers unable to hit the target? What if a target is fully hidden behind a 2-meter long low wall? Would you call for a Perception roll for attacker?

use Trace Icon + AROs to let everyone see where the enemies were. That was a perfect appliance of the -6 vs 4 dice. But without it, spraying the building likely wouldn't have hit a single person. I had a player use their vision gear to give the sniper sight of the enemies, who used that to reason where he had to fire. Shot a bug spirit through two walls. That's lovely tactical combat.
Yes, that's a good tactical combat. But that doesn't contradict my assumptions, as you're talking about situations when enemies are not just fully covered - there're literally unaware, they have no idea about shooter's position, and they didn't see him at previous Combat Turns.

If you're behind full cover with the periscope, the enemy takes a -6 and wants to use a grenade, if you're behind 99% cover a good shot can still hit you just fine, or flush you with tactical combat. So again, already in the system.
"You don't need full cover to be good because you can piss off your enemy so much he will want to throw a greande. Expose yourself a bit - that's a good tactical decision".
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: S.Miles on (10:06:29/09-26-14)
One thing about the 3 gangers firing at once:
Only lessen the dodge chance, if failiure indicates getting hit once, not three times. So if 3 gangers work together, spraying in your direction, firing 10 Bullets total, the total defence penalty should be 9 and failiure on the defence test should result in a single damage value (highest/lowest net hits for the gangers + base DV/AP of their guns).
If you add the defence penalty AND apply damage 3 times, you overkill anything with this tactic. Especially if your PCs can do 6-Bullet bursts with Assault Rifles. So don't overdo it here.

I personally think, dodging bullets Neo-Style is a good part of Shadowrun, emphazising the "more than human" nature of higher-end PCs against goons. This imposes superiority over lowlifes and gives the PCs a moment of coolness and dominance, which never hurts if you usually get f'ed by the Corps.

As for cover:
I would apply full defense pool +4 even without periscope, as you can still move in cover and most defenses are anticipating the enemy, not seeing the bullets (A MBW 3 Sam with 30+ Initative might actually see the bullets, but below its probably combat movement and anticipation).
I would not agree to the attacker not being able to hit a target in full cover, as he can't see it. Again, this is a case of anticipation, which comes from the "blind fire" modifier. Firing in absolute darkness resolves the same penalty and you can't see your opponents here either.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (11:01:28/09-26-14)
"Guaranteed hit even being sucky" is a feature of the system, not my invention.
False. The system doesn't give you -5, -10, -15, -20 if 4 gangers seperately fire 6-bullet bursts at you - your invention does.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on (08:05:25/09-28-14)
So I have to admit, the whole "Defender unaware" thing bugged me as well. So I reread the rules.

The cover rules do state that a defendant in full cover "is considered unaware of the attack" (p197). But what does that do? The barrier rules don't specify that they loose their defense pool, they only refer to the unaware rules. And they state, quite clearly, that
Quote
If the defender is unaware of an incoming attack (he does not see the attacker, the attacker is behind him, or he is surprised), then no defense is possible. Treat the attack as a Success Test instead. This does not apply to defenders who are already engaged in combat (see Character Has Superior Position, p. 187).
(Emphasis mine)

So sure, the defender is unaware - but the penalty doesn't apply if the defender is in combat. The rule doesn't state "This doesn't apply in combat unless the defender is really unaware because of cover" - it just doesn't apply at all if the target is in cover. That does mean that the full cover thing only helps for people who don't expect to be attacked though, which is sort of weird (as they'd be unaware regardless). Still though, ignoring that line doesn't seem right to me. In fact, "defender doesn't see the attacker" is specifically referenced in the Defender Unaware-rules, which means it's also specifically overruled by the "does not apply to characters in combat" rule.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (11:09:16/09-29-14)
Due to the reference to Superior position, though, it can be read as that you are assumed to be at 360-degree sight in combat, which means that if you can't see it coming at all it still won't apply. One reading could be that if you reasonably can expect an attack from a direction, you still get a defense test, but it's also quite easy to argue that if you cannot see the attack, you cannot avoid it either, even if you're in combat. Which would be an interesting debate subject in its own topic.

Also note that, as far as I recall and I don't have a pdf with me right now, the Cover rules are very clear on the Blind Fire vs Full Cover thing. So in full cover you are unaware at only Cover dice, so no defense normally. The "attacker behind you" doesn't apply, but you CAN still be unaware to the point of no defense test. But if you use a way to see the enemy, then that wouldn't be a problem, and you could still be behind 99% cover and get a defense test instead.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on (13:04:27/09-29-14)
Due to the reference to Superior position, though, it can be read as that you are assumed to be at 360-degree sight in combat, which means that if you can't see it coming at all it still won't apply. One reading could be that if you reasonably can expect an attack from a direction, you still get a defense test, but it's also quite easy to argue that if you cannot see the attack, you cannot avoid it either, even if you're in combat. Which would be an interesting debate subject in its own topic.
That's a... fairly big assumption. The Defender Unaware rule is clear, it says it doesn't apply in combat. Not if someone is behind him, not if he doesn't see him, and not if he is surprised (well, besides the initial surprise, of course) - all three are listed as examples of "defender unaware" and they as a whole are said to not apply if a character is already engaged in combat. Saying that that only applies to one of the three because of a reference that doesn't only refer to being behind is a stretch. Indeed, the "Superior Position" rule also mentions an advantage in perception as giving the bonus.

Quote
Also note that, as far as I recall and I don't have a pdf with me right now, the Cover rules are very clear on the Blind Fire vs Full Cover thing. So in full cover you are unaware at only Cover dice, so no defense normally. The "attacker behind you" doesn't apply, but you CAN still be unaware to the point of no defense test. But if you use a way to see the enemy, then that wouldn't be a problem, and you could still be behind 99% cover and get a defense test instead.
I checked and they are not clear on that point at all. The rules (on Barriers, Cover rules mention none of this) only refer back to the Defender Unaware rules - which state they don't apply to someone already engaged. There ís an example in there as well, but the example doesn't make it clear whether the victim is considered engaged in combat.

The Defender Unaware rule is simple. It states:
There are three examples of "being unaware" listed. There is no difference listed between the three.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (15:11:32/09-29-14)
That's a... fairly big assumption. The Defender Unaware rule is clear, it says it doesn't apply in combat.
It points at Superior Position after that. So the rather-strong implication there is that it doesn't get ignored at all times in combat, but that things as being in a poor position in combat would normally be Superior Position in melee instead, but unaware still applies in some situations. Otherwise we get the argument "I'm in combat so the invisible sniper at 1000m distance can't hit me", which is rather ridiculous. So it makes most sense that you simply count as 360-degree vision. Anyway, as I said, this is better discussed in its own topic.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (09:01:05/09-30-14)
Back to normal House Rules, here's one I made:

Norse Tradition is Charisma-based, not Logic-based. The whole negotiating with Spirits makes Logic sound just plain weird to me, so I'm sticking to the SR4 style of "all Guardian-Spirit religions are Charisma".
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (14:55:54/09-30-14)
I'd agree with the former, at the very least.  I haven't examined all the 'Guardian-spirit religions' in order to make the latter general blanket ruling, though.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (04:52:57/10-01-14)
Back to normal House Rules, here's one I made:

Norse Tradition is Charisma-based, not Logic-based. The whole negotiating with Spirits makes Logic sound just plain weird to me, so I'm sticking to the SR4 style of "all Guardian-Spirit religions are Charisma".
Zororastrianism was LOG-based in SR4 and had Guardian Spirits. They kept the attribute but lost the spirit type in the conversion, though.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:16:51/10-01-14)
My bad, forgot to include 1 word, I meant "All Combat-Guardian-Spirit religions are Charisma".
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: incrdbil on (01:49:55/10-02-14)
Ok, I'm contemplating a fair exchange rate  during character creation, for converting skill groups into skill points and vice versa. Sometimes I just don't want any skill group, and other times, I'd love to enhance an existing skill group with skill points.

Skill Points/ Skill Group Exchange.
1 Point Skill Group = 2 Skill Points (3 total levels of skill--3 at level 1)
2 Point Skill Group = 4 skill Points (6 total levels of skill--3 at level 2)
3 Point Group = 6 Skill Points (9 total levels of skill--3 at level 3)
4 Point Group = 8 Skill Points (12 total levels of skill--3 at level 4)
5 Point Group= 10 Skill Points (15 total levels of skill--3 at level 5)
6 Point Group = 12 Skill Points (18 total levels of skill--3 at level 6)

So, say example you had a Group 2 skill group, and there's no Group you want to take.  You trade it in for 4 individual skill points. You get more control, but less overall levels.

Or lets say you want to increase a level 2 group to level three, and you are out of Karma in generation. You look at the difference (6-4) and pay two skill points to boost the group rating.  or you just want to add a level three group--you  spend 6 skill points, and there you go.

I'm worried about the buying group skills. Should I deny that, and keep that only Karma at creation can boost groups, or just limit it, and  cap the ability to trade in skill points to boost skill groups to more than 3 points--either one group to three, or a total of thee points of increase to multiple skill groups.

I'd be happy for your input on the totals, the limits, and if you think the impact is too generous to players. Thanks.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (02:04:41/10-02-14)
What you might instead look at is the relative karma cost.  Most groups cost 6 karma (3 skills) for level 1 in all skills in the group, or 5 for the group, so you're looking at an overall exchange of 2.5 regular points for 1 group point.  Round how you wish.  ;)

Offhand, I'd only allow breaking apart, not combining - trading group skill points for regular skill points, and at the above rates.  Encourage those players to build groups.  Of course, I also allow purchasing a group to a point, and then breaking it to enhance one skill by several more, so ...
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:38:24/10-02-14)
A House Rule I made about the Nine Paths To Enlightenment:

First of all, of the two possible readings, we use the one following the first indication. Namely that the Gamemaster gets to pick the attribute. This means a player cannot grab an extremely-imbalanced pair so they easily succeed.

This leads us to the situation where this Ordeal will on average take 3+ months even with a balanced pair of attributes. Combined with the time required for the Arcana+Initiation test, this can lead to really massive durations. This leads us to the houserule:

The Nine Paths To Enlightenment Rite replaces the entire Initiation Rite, so no Arcana + Intuition test is required and karma is paid afterwards, not before the Ordeal is done.

This way, rather than players abusing stat imbalances for better odds, they are pushed to using balanced pairs first, yet don't spend twice the time on the Initiation. It also offers a way out for Adepts that don't have Arcana+Intuition at high values.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Mason on (03:26:35/10-13-14)
Revised limits

Rename Physical Limit to Physical Conditioning Limit. This limit applies to NON COMBAT Physical rolls of any kind.
Keep Mental and Social and Astral
Add two new limits

In Astral Space, use the Astral limit to limit defense tests.
In the Matrix, use Firewall as the limit on Defense tests against any Matrix damage. Use Mental Limit for any damage to your Condition Tracks.

Accuracy Limit: (Agility x 2 plus Reaction plus Intuition)/3. This replaces all Accuracy stats for weapons. Any weapon or weaponless physical attack uses this limit. Weapons that have exceptionally low or exceptionally high Accuracy instead have a penalty or bonus to the roll itself; these weapons are inherently harder or easier to use, whether you are an expert or professional or amateur or some guy on the street.

Reaction Speed Limit: (Reactionx2 plus Intuition plus Agility)/3. Use this limit for all defensive tests to avoid physical attacks.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on (03:48:16/10-13-14)
Revised limits

Rename Physical Limit to Physical Conditioning Limit. This limit applies to NON COMBAT Physical rolls of any kind.
Keep Mental and Social and Astral
Add two new limits

In Astral Space, use the Astral limit to limit defense tests.
In the Matrix, use Firewall as the limit on Defense tests against any Matrix damage. Use Mental Limit for any damage to your Condition Tracks.

Accuracy Limit: (Agility x 2 plus Reaction plus Intuition)/3. This replaces all Accuracy stats for weapons. Any weapon or weaponless physical attack uses this limit. Weapons that have exceptionally low or exceptionally high Accuracy instead have a penalty or bonus to the roll itself; these weapons are inherently harder or easier to use, whether you are an expert or professional or amateur or some guy on the street.

Reaction Speed Limit: (Reactionx2 plus Intuition plus Agility)/3. Use this limit for all defensive tests to avoid physical attacks.
I like the Accuracy limit one myself. Why limit defense tests though? What would be the advantage of introducing those?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (04:38:27/10-13-14)
I'm with TopDog as I'd question the usefulness of applying a limit to defense tests.

Where would you set the value of especially high/low weapon accuracy? Would you still allow to add smart and the personalized grip? I ask because my Elven Streetsam would get his Yamaha Raiden to Accuracy 15, which for me would be a point to stop bothering about accuracy.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (06:52:46/10-13-14)
I have to disagree with the Accuracy Limit mechanics because of fluff reasons. No matter how good you are, unless you get a lucky shot (in other words: Push the Limit), there should be a limit to how well you can aim with really crappy guns. A penalty/bonus on your Accuracy Limit might be better, or perhaps go the other way around: lower the base Accuracy of weapons by 2, and add (Agility x2 + Reaction + Intuition)/6 to this value. That way, characters aren't automatically 'forced' into a certain attribute point distribution if they want to shoot well, but the one who do do get a bonus.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (20:26:36/10-14-14)
A sadistical one, based on how Shedim are too squishy now:

Harrow power for Shedim:
For normal Shedim, gives them Immunity to Normal Weapons at a Hardened Armor value equal to their Force. For Master Shedim, gives them Immunity to Normal Weapons at a Hardened Armor value equal to 1.5x their Force.

The 1.5x instead of 2x is to compensate for the fact they can wear Armor.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Mason on (21:37:09/10-14-14)
Some of the guns in the book are incapable of killing an unarmored person on the street with one shot even if you Call a Shot for increased damage and max hits with the Accuracy (assuming they roll average two hits to move out of the way and average 1 hit to soak damage). Mostly holdouts, but still. That doesn't make any sense to me. So its either set Accuracy based on how good you are, or make the claim that the weapon has an inherent limit sure but you need to raise those limits by 2 across the board.

That's how I feel about it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (21:39:56/10-14-14)
So because not all guns are one-shot killers the system is flawed?_?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (00:27:24/10-15-14)
Honestly, that's a 'dead to rights' sort of thing.  Most pistols, properly placed against a target who cannot functionally resist, are going to kill the target - at least, most targets.  I can see a very durable ork, troll, or cybered-out anything taking the headshot / eyeshot / earshot and surviving, just from a freak of the bullet's bounce off an especially tough skull.  That having been said, though, it is IMO pretty much a hand-wave.  "You have him bound at point-blank range, unable to resist; you kill him."

Of course, the converse will generally work too - but then, I don't generally let nameless mooks use Edge to miraculously survive.  (Not generally, anyhow.)  That's why PCs are PCs.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (05:38:06/10-15-14)
Some of the guns in the book are incapable of killing an unarmored person on the street with one shot even if you Call a Shot for increased damage and max hits with the Accuracy (assuming they roll average two hits to move out of the way and average 1 hit to soak damage). Mostly holdouts, but still. That doesn't make any sense to me. So its either set Accuracy based on how good you are, or make the claim that the weapon has an inherent limit sure but you need to raise those limits by 2 across the board.

That's how I feel about it.
Guns =/ Pistols, so I don't understand the point you try to make. If you count Submachine Guns in, than the lowest you have with max Accuracy and Called Shot is 14 P, which is good enough.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules (Mystic Adepts & Versed Mages houserule)
Post by: ZeConster on (12:06:58/10-17-14)
So there are a number of issues people have with the way Mystic Adepts work now:

At Top Dog's suggestion, I've reworked my houserule proposal to include different Priority levels, so here it is:
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: iamfanboy on (06:31:45/10-22-14)
ZeCoster, I do like your idea (though to fit the rest of the book might change it to Qi); however, any way you cut it the mystic adept gains 2 points of Magic/Qi over a dedicated adept or mage at the same Priority level. I'm not sure that's bueno.

Perhaps changing the starting values to:

A Mystic Adept Qi 4 Magic 2  Versed Adept Magic 4 Qi 2
B Mystic Adept Qi 3 Magic 1 Versed Adept Magic 3 Qi 1
C Mystic Adept Qi 2 Magic 1 Versed Adept Magic 2 Qi 1

That fits with the Mage/Technomancer progression of Magic/Resonance, and further points in either could be purchased as per normal character gen rules, at the price for more Magic points - I'm not a fan of the mystic adept getting 'cheap' adept powers, so that little bit gets axed. It would take investment to take a starting character up to 6/6 (A to Magic, B to Race (human) so you get 7 points), but you lose Edge to do it.

Seems fair to me? I dunno though, it's all theoretical at this point to I.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on (07:01:39/10-22-14)
ZeCoster, I do like your idea (though to fit the rest of the book might change it to Qi); however, any way you cut it the mystic adept gains 2 points of Magic/Qi over a dedicated adept or mage at the same Priority level. I'm not sure that's bueno.
The Versed Mage trades in a fair number of spells and the ability to astrally project and perceive for the 2 chi (he can buy back one of those, but then he'd have to pay for it so that's a wash). He's worse off than a core rule Mystic Adept by 5 karma (although the tradeoff might be worth it for many MA's).

The Mystic Adept (ZeConster style) is worse off then a pure adept since he starts at lower Chi compared to an adept of the same priority.

So in both cases I don't understand what you mean by gaining 2 points over a dedicated adept/mage. I mean, yes, but at a steep cost.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (08:15:57/10-22-14)
The secondary attribute only costs 5 Karma per rank (similar to how core-rules Mystic Adepts have to pay 5 Karma per Power Point), and with the spells trade-in, both MAs and VMs get 5 Karma less worth of stuff on the higher priority levels (+2 Chi/Magic, -3 spells; or +1 Chi/Magic, -2 spells) than the core-rules Mystic Adept. The biggest reason to put the primary attribute at 6 at Priority A is to not penalize Metatype priorities that start with 0 special attribute points.
Making both attributes cost special attribute points (which I think is what you're suggesting) would penalize MAs and VMs too much compared to the current system, where they simply pay 5 Karma per Power Point compared to 5 Karma per Chi rank (as VM) under my houserule. My goal isn't to nerf them, but to make them more fun to play while not deviating too far from the core-rules mechanics.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: iamfanboy on (12:57:45/10-22-14)
The secondary attribute only costs 5 Karma per rank (similar to how core-rules Mystic Adepts have to pay 5 Karma per Power Point), and with the spells trade-in, both MAs and VMs get 5 Karma less worth of stuff on the higher priority levels (+2 Chi/Magic, -3 spells; or +1 Chi/Magic, -2 spells) than the core-rules Mystic Adept. The biggest reason to put the primary attribute at 6 at Priority A is to not penalize Metatype priorities that start with 0 special attribute points.
Making both attributes cost special attribute points (which I think is what you're suggesting) would penalize MAs and VMs too much compared to the current system, where they simply pay 5 Karma per Power Point compared to 5 Karma per Chi rank (as VM) under my houserule. My goal isn't to nerf them, but to make them more fun to play while not deviating too far from the core-rules mechanics.
Well, part of the problem with mystic adepts as in the core rules is that they have all but one mage ability, all of the adept ability, and sacrifice nothing for it (ooh, they can't astrally project - with all the dangers GMs spring on mages that try to astrally scout, it's a crapshoot anyway). At the core, they give up very little for a lot of benefit; that's why minmaxers gravitate towards them.

I went back to the core idea of a mystic adept when they were first introduced - that they split their power between slinging spells and channeling qi - when I suggested that their attributes match their non-magic counterparts. With your pricing, picking a mystic adept puts them at near-parity with a normal adept or mage while also giving them (effectively) priority C in their non-speciality. IMHO, they should not be the equal of a mage or adept in those class specialties; they're dilettantes, dabbling in both worlds, and their values should represent that.

As of now, they don't, and that's why they're munchkin bait. Your method comes close to fixing that, which I like, but it doesn't go quite far enough.

Also, no other magic class can spend Karma points on improving their Magic/Resonance; why should mystic adepts get a free pass to do so instead of using Special Attribute points like everyone else? There's a reason it's a Priority system; you have to sacrifice something if you want to play a troll mystic adept who kicks ass at slinging mojo and, well, kicking ass.

Part of the problem with mystic adepts back in 2e/3e is that they had to Initiate to raise their ability (which a starting character couldn't do) leaving them WAY weaker than their other magic counterparts. Special Attribute points address that neatly.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (13:06:35/10-22-14)
It seems to me that what you have an issue with is the way Mystic Adepts work in 5th Edition, not my proposed houserule itself.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: iamfanboy on (14:39:14/10-22-14)
That's kind of correct, but like I said, your houserule has a chance to fix my problem with mystic adepts: For the price of 10 starting Karma, (not counting the 2 spent on being able to astrally percept) the ONLY thing they're missing from either the Adept or Mage ability list is the ability to astrally project. They give up an ability that for most players won't matter in exchange for 3.5 metric butt-tons of ability. That is unbalanced, and needs to be corrected.

I mean, look at the start of this thread. Half the posts on the first page are talking about mystic adepts and the need to balance 'em.

I also LIKE mystic adepts (played one back in 3e when they sucked, the last time I was a full time player), but I also know enough to follow my inner munchkin player - and if it's saying, "Play a mystic adept in 5e, they're the best choice" then my inner gamemaster knows that it needs fixin'.

Hell, my munchkin friend's first statement after spending some time with the new rules is, "I wanna be a mystic adept." And this is a guy whose ability to absolutely destroy the D&D 3.5 rules is legendary and only tolerated because he's hilarious.


Question for anyone who owns the new magic book, though (because I can't afford the Street Grimoire and probably won't be able to for a long time), was what ZeConster and I are arguing about fixed in the Grimoire? 'cause if so, then there's little point talking further about it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (14:48:44/10-22-14)
That's kind of correct, but like I said, your houserule has a chance to fix my problem with mystic adepts: For the price of 10 starting Karma, (not counting the 2 spent on being able to astrally percept) the ONLY thing they're missing from either the Adept or Mage ability list is the ability to astrally project.
25 starting karma, 5 for Astral Perception. It's 5 per PP, 2 karma was a mistake that was never intended and was already announced as wrong even before the official release of SR5, it's been in the HotPatch Errata quite soon and in the official errata for a while now.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: iamfanboy on (15:45:30/10-22-14)
Ah, OK - I was going to read the FAQ AFTER I finished digesting the rulebook.

...and now I can't seem to find it. *sigh*

Still, I'm not sure I like the idea of Mystic Adepts having an 'exception' about buying what amounts to Magic points. That's why I like the idea of separating Magic/Qi into two categories and enfolding it into the Special Attribute rules: makes the 'cost' of being a dilettante that they don't start out as good at magic or adeptery as a dedicated character, but if you choose to, you CAN become that strong - at the cost of spending points on other stuff.

In other words, yeah, I'll use my version at my table, but your tables are your own. :D
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (16:08:32/10-22-14)
If you force people to take really-high SAPs for Edge, Magic AND Chi, I feel you're pushing Mystic Adepts out of the game and you should just ban them instead.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Malevolence on (18:32:51/11-04-14)

Based on the concept from FATE and the Cypher system (and to a lesser degree D&D 4th) where you can perform some quick self healing a limited number of times, I have created some house rules to do so in Shadowrun. These are meant to exemplify a mixture of "I just need a second to catch my breath" and "that damage wasn't really as bad as I originally thought" to gain a small number of damage boxes back. These are, mechanically, new uses for Edge that allow you to bypass the time requirement for gaining the benefit of Natural Healing.


Shrug it Off
As a Complex Action, you may spend a point of Edge to immediately make a Natural Recovery test to heal stun damage as if the character had rested for 1 hour (Body + Willpower). This can be done as often as the character desires as long as the following two conditions are met:
1. The character must have a point of Edge available to spend
2. At least 1 hour has to have passed since the last Natural Recovery Test (whether granted from an hour of rest, Shrug it Off, Only a Flesh Wound, or any other means)


Only a Flesh Wound
Similar to Shrug it Off, but more potent. The Character may BURN one edge point and use a Complex Action to immediately make a Natural Recovery test to heal physical damage as if he had rested for 1 day (Body x 2). So long as the character has at least one point of Edge to burn, he can do this as often as he likes.


I am seeking input on how unbalancing the community at large feels it might be, how the verbiage might be changed to better describe the effect (and avoid misinterpretation or undesirable edge cases), and input for fine tuning. For example, right now I have it as allowing a heal check roll returning a random value which could be quite high for high BOD/WIL characters, so it might be better to use a different test or a straight value. Or maybe Only a Flesh Wound is weak for burning a point of edge and it should allow you to add your edge pool to the roll as well?


What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: 8-bit on (18:57:16/11-04-14)
Shrug it Off is going to be easily abusable (as are all Edge actions) by a High Edge character. Most commonly Trolls and Humans. Although not too abusable. Medkit/First Aid + Heal Spell + Shrug it Off most likely heals you to full, or at the very least removes many boxes of damage from your condition monitors.

Only a Flesh Wound us going to be highly powerful on high Body characters who have only 1 Edge. Similar to the conversation (can't find it atm) of abusing Not Dead Yet, a 1 Edge character can Burn and Edge, then use 5 Karma to regain it back. Obviously the GM can stop that, and they do lose out on Karma, but for when you need your mega tank who has Symbiotes and Body 7+ back in the game, it will be good. I would be tempted to let it add the Edge pool as well, but that won't make much of a difference on those who are in a position to abuse it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (20:23:26/11-04-14)
Honestly, it has echoes of video-game 4e AD&D - where it's virrtually impossible to really put the PCs into a risk-it-all do-or-die situation where they're down to the bloody edge.  It'd work great for a very cinematic campaign, sure, and if that's your goal, this'll work great.  But understand that with this, the PCs become considerably more unkillable, and it makes it tough to really endanger them without killing them outright, which is a complaint I heard from many more than a few people about 4e AD&D,

SR5 rules for healing already allow for incredibly fast healing - not 'action movie' cinematic, but at least 'action noir' cinematic, where the main character has to lay low for a day or two, and is pretty much at full health after that.  This turns it up to 14, and makes it 'action movie' cinematic.  Again, though, if that's what you're going for, this would do it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Malevolence on (21:07:44/11-04-14)
As with most things, this would also be usable by NPCs. But yes, it is mostly targeted towards more cinematic games (hence the names), though considering the other uses of edge, it doesn't have to be limited to them.


The problem I saw that made this interesting its that despite all of the rapid healing and nearly instant healing methods, characters were still mostly annoyed with lingering wound modifiers. They weren't endangering them - having 3 boxes on each track is nowhere near life threatening, it was simply inhibiting dice pools. Wound modifiers are a great mechanic, don't get me wrong, but in the excitement of a prolonged run where you don't have the luxury of sitting still for an hour (i.e. - the GM is Doing It Right), getting an unlucky ding early on means dealing with a one or two dice inconvenience for the rest of the run. If it is a minor inconvenience it might not be worth spending/buring a point of Edge to do something about, but if it is becoming annoying (and the player fun level is possibly suffering as a result), this provides the option to spend a relatively valuable and restricted resource to gain a dice or two back to your pools.


This will probably mostly benefit magic users as it gives them a limited but quick way to heal drain damage that would otherwise cripple them for hours/days. Not that mages need much help, but due to the opportunity cost of putting points into Magic, they tend to have lower Edge overall and so this becomes relatively more expensive for them.


But yeah, at the other extreme, it can give you one more option to avoid death if you have full or nearly full damage tracks. In that case, you are using Only a Flesh Wound and your other Edge based option is Not Dead Yet, which is probably the better value as it ensures your survival rather than simply improving your odds.


Maybe I'm trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. That's why this is up here. Both pieces of feedback have been helpful. Thank you. But in light of them I thought it might help to explain more what I was hoping to achieve with them.


Perhaps restricting them to once per session or in-game day would better address the potential exploitability/unkillability issues that were brought up?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: 8-bit on (21:23:01/11-04-14)
Limiting Shrug it Off to once per in-game day would balance it perfectly IMO.

Unfortunately, I don't see a way to prevent the low-Edge spam of Only a Flesh Wound (same with Not Dead Yet, but that's another thing), since it basically makes tanks, well, really tanky. Medkit + Heal spell is already huge, but that just helps even more. I think it would be better perhaps if it was just Body + Edge pool; that would give higher Edge people a better pool to heal with, while low Edge people have a much lower heal. Then again, I'm not sure if it's worth Burning Edge at that point.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (21:35:33/11-04-14)
Honestly, it has echoes of video-game 4e AD&D - where it's virrtually impossible to really put the PCs into a risk-it-all do-or-die situation where they're down to the bloody edge.
We had a few too many fights inbetween rests at one point in our D&D campaign, and the healer ran out of healing surges, which meant potions only healed him 1 HP - he literally had to hide under a table during a boss fight against a demon.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (02:19:16/11-05-14)
It all strongly depends on the degree of optimization of the party and the opposition. I saw three Rangers at our tables, the only one with Twin Strike started with 14 STR and used Scimitars, and one of the others uses Shield of Blades ...
I managed to force some Death Saving Throws and we recently had some characters get to zero surges or very close to it in another campaign, but other than that it was more cinematic, yes.

How strong or maybe overpowered the suggestes recovery options are depends IMHO on the amount of action the group faces and how many possibly critical dice rolls have to be made. If you regularly have to expect to need 2 or 3 Edge per run and are already sitting at 4, you have another strong option to reduce wound penalties. I wouldn't think such an option to provide any real benefit to the play experience.

PS: @ The Wyrm Ouroboros
The "Advanced" from D&D is long gone.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:22:38/11-05-14)
We had a few too many fights inbetween rests at one point in our D&D campaign, and the healer ran out of healing surges, which meant potions only healed him 1 HP - he literally had to hide under a table during a boss fight against a demon.
A demon capable of throwing fireballs, which meant I had to hide at a large distance and occasionally shout healing messages at the others. And I already had gone down once that fight so I was at 1 HP.

Back on topic: I kinda prefer the current lethality. There's several ways to temporarily recover Stun damage, and First Aid deserves to be promoted. And the inconvenience is nice, since risk is supposed to be risk. ZeConster having to hide at a large distance and sending his Spirit in solo, was due to a really good anti-Summoning roll from me and poor Drain resist from him. Being able to just shrug that off takes the fun out.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: 8-bit on (21:52:20/11-11-14)
Recently, I participated in a game where I had a number of stun boxes from a Flashbang. Ironically, I had a headache while playing it. I then thought about how a Flashbang would probably give my character a headache, and I know that eventually, you get drained from continuous pain. I then thought of this idea for a houserule. Basically, if you have any damage on your condition monitors, you have a chance to "bleed out" per se. This makes Shadowrun slightly more lethal, and I'm curious as to what everyone thinks about it. The Stun damage rule focuses on your force of will, as well as your body's ability to resist pain. The Physical damage rule focuses on just how strong your body is and how fast it can heal, when you are bleeding out, it doesn't matter about your willpower.

---------------------------------

Stun Damage

If you sit around with Stun Damage on your Condition monitor for a certain amount of time based on the following table, you have a chance to accumulate more stun damage through sheer fatigue of headaches, bruises, etc.

Make a Body + Willpower test with a threshold equal to your wound penalty. Any effects that boost, or lower, these attributes factor into the test. If you fail to meet the threshold, then you take Stun damage equal to the Threshold minus your hits. A glitch forces you to take at least 1 Stun box (cumulative with additional if you fail the test). A critical glitch, along with the additional Stun Box from a glitch and the boxes you take from missing the threshold, means that you must immediately make another test. If you succeed on the test, you no longer have to make any more tests unless you gain more Stun damage through external means.

So, for example, a Human with 6 Stun Damage has sat around for 1 hour. He must make a test. He rolls Body 3 + Willpower 3. His threshold to meet is 2. He rolls 2 hits on 6 dice. He takes no boxes of damage. He does not have to make another test, unless he gains more Stun damage through external means.

A Troll has 10 boxes of Stun Damage, and has sat around for 30 minutes. He rolls Body 7 + Willpower 5. His threshold is 3. He rolls 2 hits. He takes one more Box of Stun damage, putting him at 11 boxes of Stun. He does not need to make another test for 30 minutes.

Time Interval between Tests:

1 to 3 Stun Damage - 2 hours
4 to 6 Stun Damage - 1 hour
7+ Stun Damage - 30 minutes

Damage Compensators treat your Stun damage for the threshold and time intervals as # of Stun Boxes minus the rating of your Damage Compensators. Pain Editor completely negates this accumulation of damage, as you feel no fatigue.

This damage can never overflow into your Physical Monitor or Overflow Monitor, although it can cause you to fall unconscious. Symbiotes have no effect on this test.

The Allergy Quality applies a dice pool penalty to the resistance test according to it's severity. -2 for Mild, -4 for Moderate or Severe, and -6 for Extreme. This only activates if the allergen is present.

Any painkillers that are taken may halt the accumulation of Stun Damage in this manner. The GM can decide how long these painkillers last.

Taking a short rest (as per the rules to recover Stun Damage), even with the Insomnia Quality or if you fail to get any hits on your healing tests, stops this accumulation of Stun Damage. Any time spent while resting (as per the rules to recover Stun Damage) pause the time until the next test (similar to registering Sprites and their OS score), however, if you are interrupted, the timer resumes.

Physical Damage

If you sit around with Physical Damage on your Condition Monitor for a certain amount of time based on the following table, you have a chance to accumulate more Physical damage due to your body being severely damaged.

Make a Body x 2 test with a threshold equal to your wound penalty. Any effects that boost these attributes factor into the test, and wound penalties are the only ones that apply. If you fail to meet the threshold, then you take Physical damage equal to the Threshold minus your hits. A glitch forces you to take a box of Physical Damage (cumulative with any boxes that you may accumulate if you fail the test). A critical glitch, along with the additional Physical Box from a glitch and the boxes you take from missing the threshold, means that you must immediately make another test. If you succeed on the test, you no longer have to make any more tests unless you gain more Physical damage through external means.

For example, a Human with 4 Physical Damage has gone for 90 minutes without the boxes being removed. He rolls Body 3 x 2. His threshold to meet is 1. He rolls 0 hits on his 6 dice. He takes one box of Physical Damage. He does not need to make another test for 45 minutes.

A Dwarf has 8 boxes of Physical Damage, and has gone for 15 minutes without the boxes being removed. He rolls Body 7 x 2. His threshold to meet is 2. He rolls 2 hits, but also glitches. He takes one box of Physical Damage. He does not need to make another test unless he gains more Physical damage through external means.

Time Interval between Tests:

1 to 3 Physical Damage - 90 minutes
4 to 6 Physical Damage - 45 minutes
7+ Physical Damage - 15 minutes

Damage Compensators, Pain Editor, and Symbiotes have no effect on this test. Platelet Factories may trigger, as usual.

The Allergy Quality applies a dice pool penalty to the resistance test according to it's severity. -2 for Mild, -4 for Moderate or Severe, and -6 for Extreme. This only activates if the allergen is present.

The Weak Immune System Quality applies a -2 penalty to the test, to represent the body's weakened ability to handle infection and general health.

This damage can go into Overflow, and eventually kill you.

A Medicine + Logic [Mental] test with a Time Interval equal to the number of Physical Boxes divided by 3 (rounded up) in minutes may be performed to stop this accumulation of damage. This is to represent applying pressure, and torniquets, etc. that can be used to allow a body to begin to heal itself.

Taking a long rest (as per the rules to recover Physical Damage), even if you fail to get any hits on your test, stops the accumulation of Physical damage. Any time spent while resting (as per the rules to recover Physical Damage) pause the time until the next test (similar to registering Sprites and their OS score), however, if you are interrupted, the timer resumes.

---------------------------------

So, what do you guys think? This is, admittedly, a very rough first draft, and it may be confusing in some places. Feel free to point out any places that are lacking in clarity. I also realize that this makes Shadowrun much deadlier, but it is a house rule for a reason. I also think it fits in with "real-life" stuff, especially the stun damage part. I cannot tell you how many times I've been unable to function at anything due to a headache (the equivalent of stun damage) until the pain got so pervasive I had to sleep it off.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (01:49:19/11-12-14)
I like the idea of it, but then I love anything that makes the game harder.  This would integrate nicely with the advanced medical rules from Bullets & Bandages too.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (02:11:06/11-12-14)
It has advantages, and I like the rule, but this is an inevitable slide into death.  You take one box of damage, and if you keep going, even if you don't take any more damage from other stuff, eventually you're going to be dead, because you don't account for the body's natural ability to compensate, shut down blood vessels, coagulate, etc.  Resting for hours to recover one box of damage isn't necessary; the body does this on its own.  Perhaps once you match the threshold on the test, you can stop needing to track this - but up the threshold by one to compensate.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: 8-bit on (02:13:59/11-12-14)
It has advantages, and I like the rule, but this is an inevitable slide into death.  You take one box of damage, and if you keep going, even if you don't take any more damage from other stuff, eventually you're going to be dead, because you don't account for the body's natural ability to compensate, shut down blood vessels, coagulate, etc.  Resting for hours to recover one box of damage isn't necessary; the body does this on its own.  Perhaps once you match the threshold on the test, you can stop needing to track this - but up the threshold by one to compensate.

I like that idea, as you're right. Eventually, if you don't rest, it's going to kill you. The Physical part was a little overkill (but I figured it should be, because, you know, bleeding to death is kind of serious). Passing the threshold would be a good way to just end the test then and there.

Perhaps up the threshold to Boxes/2 (round up)? Seems sort of ridiculous once you get to 7 boxes though, as you are hitting 4+ threshold, which can get dicey even at 14 dice. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, what do you mean by upping the threshold by one?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (05:43:56/11-12-14)
Instead of (Boxes/3, round up) - which is essentially the wound penalty of whatever row of damage they're on - make it (Boxes/3) + 1.  So for 1-3 boxes, they have a threshold of 2; for 4-6, a threshold of 3; etc.

I do have something of an issue of wound penalties applying; that's kind of double-dipping, since the wound penalty (at least the one that you're working towards) is, after all, the threshold.  When it comes to healing, as compared to making a skill roll to HELP healing, wound penalties never apply.  Otherwise you'd wind up overfrequently with a TPK, as one hit basically means that you're screwed no matter what .
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (06:21:22/11-12-14)
So The Wyrm Ouroboros, you want people to die over night just because of having some minor injury?
So with BOD 2 you'd eventually die with just one box on your physical monitor? If you go to sleep for 6 hours you might have gone to 4 boxes of damage within 4.5 hours and then spiral down to death even faster.

I don't like it, because it's especially harmful to humans and elves while being more or less neglectable by the others.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: 8-bit on (10:56:13/11-12-14)
Hmm, back to the drawing board with that one, I'll see if I can get a revised version up soon-ish.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (10:11:17/11-13-14)
Wow.  Did I somehow offend you, Lucean?  Never mind that.  You failed to read 8-bit's original post, where he suggests:
Taking a short rest (as per the rules to recover Stun Damage), even with the Insomnia Quality or if you fail to get any hits on your healing tests, stops this accumulation of Stun Damage.

... and ...

Taking a long rest (as per the rules to recover Physical Damage), even if you fail to get any hits on your test, stops the accumulation of Physical damage.

So if you settle down with the full intention to rest and make it through the full rest time, even if you completely fail your roll, it stops the above described process.  This rule is meant for people who are injured but who cannot, for one reason or another, stop to take a breather - whether it's because it's a '24' scenario, time pressures, being hunted, or for some other reason - or whose rest is wrecked by some method of interruption or another.

That given, then yeah - I like this rule, and I'd use it, or something very similar.  I honestly wouldn't begin to force a roll until you actually had gained penalties, and THEN I'd keep it simple: I'd simply make the wound penalty the 'natural stabilization' threshold.  You generally won't keel over and die because your finger got broken (one box) - but if every bone in your hand gets busted up (five boxes), you have a much higher chance of something going south - a clot heading somewhere it shouldn't, that sort of thing.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: 8-bit on (11:03:11/11-13-14)
Yeah, that was the idea. To force people to eventually rest, instead of being able to run for hours or days without any penalty. I mean, your willpower and/or body does eventually get ground down by pain.

I agree that you shouldn't die of a broken finger though.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (12:17:10/11-13-14)
Ok, so starting to rest would stop it instead of having to complete it? This is better, then.
And people with BOD 2 or less should avoid the shadows anyway.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (15:29:17/11-14-14)
Uh, no again, Lucean.  You still have to make it through the rest time - complete it - in order to not have to roll any more.  If you get interrupted, then you'll still need to make the rolls.  However, if you make it through the rest time, even if you didn't get any successes on the healing rolls, you no longer need to make the rolls for the rule above.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: 8-bit on (15:59:17/11-14-14)
Uh, no again, Lucean.  You still have to make it through the rest time - complete it - in order to not have to roll any more.  If you get interrupted, then you'll still need to make the rolls.  However, if you make it through the rest time, even if you didn't get any successes on the healing rolls, you no longer need to make the rolls for the rule above.

This is what I meant.

Basically, if you take an hour long nap (aka Stun rest rules), you no longer have to worry about stockpiling Stun damage. If you manage to go a full day without being interrupted (aka Physical rest rules for recovery), then you no longer have to worry about accumulating Physical damage. The point of it is that someone with a Headache is going to feel that and eventually start to feel worse if they don't stop to take a break. The point of the Physical rule, is that someone who has been physically damaged shouldn't be able to go an infinite amount of time without resting (as long as they don't accumulate more damage). Also, the Medicine test is much shorter, although you have to meet a threshold.

It is meant to make it somewhat more realistic, in my opinion. A physically weaker person should be more impacted by a physical wound than the super bulky troll. If someone has no willpower to push through pain, eventually the pain should get to them. I have edited the rule, here are the changes.

Wound penalties no longer apply. Succeeding on the test means you no longer have to make any more tests (unless you take another hit to your condition monitors, such as another gunshot or another flashbang). The threshold is equal to your Condition Monitor Boxes/3 + 1 (round up final result). If you are in the middle of resting, the timer between tests is paused; if you get interrupted, it starts going again. Any Allergy that is triggered applies the penalty (as the description states) according to it's severity. So, a Mild Allergy to Pollen will apply a -2 modifier to the resistance test, regardless of whether it is Stun or Physical; while an Extreme Allergy applies a -6 modifier. Finally, the Weak Immune System Quality applies a -2 penalty (as it's description states) to Physical accumulation only. This is to represent that their body is not functioning as well as it should to fight off infection.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (23:19:47/11-14-14)
I still believe that 1-2 boxes should not require a roll; this is a ding to the head (Stun) or a minor injury (Physical) that winds up killing you.  Because of this, I would simply make the threshold equal to the current wound penalty for that track.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: 8-bit on (00:13:33/11-15-14)
I still believe that 1-2 boxes should not require a roll; this is a ding to the head (Stun) or a minor injury (Physical) that winds up killing you.  Because of this, I would simply make the threshold equal to the current wound penalty for that track.

Good idea; changed. Intervals all right though?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (04:10:44/11-15-14)
Intervals seem fine to me, though I haven't played with it (obviously).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Archaos on (13:28:21/12-01-14)
I think there are good innovations in Shadowrun 5 (the magic and perhaps the Matrix (not tested)) and bad (the limits) but my main complaint is that the system is heavy, or even heavier than previous (complexity of fireshots and adding limits).
Good innovations make me want to play to SR5, but my players and me have had enough of this system crawls.

So I worked on a new system with the following objectives:
  - Prune Shadowrun 5: less rolls, less dices, fewer attributes, fewer skills, etc. order to have a faster, easier and more fluid game.
  - Obtain a relatively compatible system with conventional rules and equipment (scale attributes and skills, d6, damage, equipment, etc.) or at least adaptable without much difficulty.
  - Keep the richness of the system and the world of Shadowrun.

Other considerations taken into account:
  - There must be a difference between a professional (skill 3) and amateur (skill 1).
  - Facing a troll melee should be scary.
  - The conjuration is too strong in SR5 and SR4 where mages are doing everything with their spirits.
  - Different versions of Shadowrun have the Qualities to integrate the characters in the Sixth World. Provide historical bases would help design a character really related to this universe.

I think I managed to do all this. The documents can be found on the SRA page of my web site (http://"http://www.archaos-jdr.fr/shadowrun5/index.php?page=SRA") (SRA =  Shadowrun Alternative).

The basic principle of the system is that the skills set the threshold of the dice (2 in a skill that only the 1 and 2 on the dice are succes). That's less than we throw dice (only the attribute and bonuses) and that skills have real importance. One action = one roll. All dice rolls 'secondary' (drain, defense, etc.) are replaced by constants or removed to speed up the game. Firearmes use and Matrix are simplified.
Small drawback: it's in French (not very complicated French). Sorry for my poor English.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Darzil on (16:45:51/12-19-14)
I have a personal bugbear with glitches and the statistics of the rule. It's worse in some other game systems, as usually you roll many dice in Shadowrun, but my issue is with the way when you increase a dice pool to an even number of dice, the chance of a glitch increases, rather than decreasing.

So, if you roll an even number of dice, and they come up with an equal number of 1's and non 1's, then it's a glitch. However, had you rolled one less die, it would have had only a 50% chance to have glitched (equal chance for the removed die to be 1 or non 1), and had you rolled one more die, it would only be a 1 in 6 chance to have glitched. Either way, by having an even dice pool, you have a larger chance to have glitched.

My suggested house rule for getting rid of this would be if you roll an equal number of 1's and non 1's, then you roll a d6. On a 1 or 2 it's a glitch.

That simple rule, which admittedly does involve sometimes rolling an extra die, means increasing a dice pool always reduces the chance of a glitch.

Thoughts ?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ZeConster on (18:29:40/12-19-14)
In 5th edition, it's "more than half", not "half" (although there's an example on page 209 which still uses half), which makes the odd numbers of dice more likely to glitch. Seems like your houserule (albeit with "1 more 1 than non-1" instead of "the same amount of 1s and non-1s") would still make for a smoother progression of glitch chances, though. Sounds like a good idea.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: anchoress on (17:20:16/01-07-15)
In 5th edition, it's "more than half", not "half" (although there's an example on page 209 which still uses half),

Where do you have this from? In my rulebook it says "if half or more ..."
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (01:32:55/01-08-15)
Could you provide a quote then, please?

p. 45 CRB starts on glitches with:
Along with fives and sixes, you need to pay attention to how many ones show up when you roll the dice. If more than half the dice you rolled show a one, then you’ve got problems. This is called a glitch.

And this seems to be the only time the number of dice is mentioned in rules text.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: anchoress on (07:58:51/01-08-15)
I was curious, because my SR group played it like this all the time (i for myself am relatively new to SR). I don't have my (german) rulebook around right now. So i looked it up in the quick-start rules and there it is stated like posted above. But in the german quick start rules it is said "more than half". I will wait until today evening and look it up in my german CRB.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (09:20:19/01-08-15)
Then maybe it's a holdover for them from SR4.
It's sometimes problematic if you go to a new edition and "remember" how things used to be. I discovered quite some contradictions that were claimed to be rules but have become a habit.
So if you're new, do yourself and maybe also your group a favor and do look things up, if you're unsure :)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: anchoress on (11:08:44/01-08-15)
Thanks for your kind words! I will definitly do that, especially after all the locksmith discussion ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (13:15:35/01-12-15)
Commercial lifestyle, from Run Faster page 218:
Suggestion: Allow player character to roll appropriate business skill tied to Logic or Intuition instead of Etiquette + Charisma [Mental].

Justification: I don't necessarily agree that someone's business savvy is wholly a measure of Etiquette. A great mechanic could be successfull on account of his legendary skill despite being somewhat brusque, just like an awesome talismonger (*cough* Lothan *hack*) could be widely regarded as the best in the biz around town despite being an arrogant, insufferable lout.

This would allow characters to own and run anything from mechanic shops to (il)legal clinics without having to be a charismatic individual of social renown.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Damien Granz on (02:36:16/01-24-15)
We all love the Shadowrun setting and adore the Shadowrun game, but not every rule is appropriate for every table. What if you want your game to be more Pink Mowhawk, or more Intrigue? What if you want grenades to be less lethal--or more? How do you tweak the game to suit the needs of you and your players?

Post it here, we want to know.

This might uh, not matter as much for everybody else, but our table is very sensitive to transgender issues, and so we always sort of house ruled that Essence was more or less your soul/body's link's inability to cope with being made into 'not human'. So we always removed the Essence cost to anything body modification wise that doesn't change the person's inborn nature.

That is, gender reassignment surgery, breast implants, and the like, cost 0 Essence, because 'transman now with a penis' isn't any less holistic to us than like, not. The justification otherwise is that, cloned or Type-O organs or blood might not be YOUR organs, but don't cost Essence either. Like if you can get shot in the liver and get it replaced with a cloned organ or a Type-O organ replacement, you don't lose Essence.

Essence costs still work normally for like, cyberware implants or bioware that change, basically the functionality of the person away from human (or metahuman or what not). So a Type-O heart replacement is fine, but a new heart that pumps super platelets into your body on command would cost Essence as normal.

But this change might only matter to a small number of players, but it's done a lot to make some of the people I play with much, much more comfortable with the game.

I hope that uh, it doesn't bother or offend anybody though, and I don't expect anybody to really make this kind change on their own or become 'canon' to 5E when the new augmentation book comes out. But that's probably one of the biggest house rules we have.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Namikaze on (10:49:08/01-24-15)
This might uh, not matter as much for everybody else, but our table is very sensitive to transgender issues, and so we always sort of house ruled that Essence was more or less your soul/body's link's inability to cope with being made into 'not human'. So we always removed the Essence cost to anything body modification wise that doesn't change the person's inborn nature.

That is, gender reassignment surgery, breast implants, and the like, cost 0 Essence, because 'transman now with a penis' isn't any less holistic to us than like, not. The justification otherwise is that, cloned or Type-O organs or blood might not be YOUR organs, but don't cost Essence either. Like if you can get shot in the liver and get it replaced with a cloned organ or a Type-O organ replacement, you don't lose Essence.

Essence costs still work normally for like, cyberware implants or bioware that change, basically the functionality of the person away from human (or metahuman or what not). So a Type-O heart replacement is fine, but a new heart that pumps super platelets into your body on command would cost Essence as normal.

But this change might only matter to a small number of players, but it's done a lot to make some of the people I play with much, much more comfortable with the game.

I hope that uh, it doesn't bother or offend anybody though, and I don't expect anybody to really make this kind change on their own or become 'canon' to 5E when the new augmentation book comes out. But that's probably one of the biggest house rules we have.

That makes a lot of sense to me.  I think in previous editions, if my memory serves, cosmetic surgeries didn't take away Essence at all.  While it might be more than cosmetic to the character's beliefs and such, what you're describing would definitely quality as "cosmetic" in game terms.  Thank you for sharing!
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Damien Granz on (22:07:08/01-24-15)
That makes a lot of sense to me.  I think in previous editions, if my memory serves, cosmetic surgeries didn't take away Essence at all.  While it might be more than cosmetic to the character's beliefs and such, what you're describing would definitely quality as "cosmetic" in game terms.  Thank you for sharing!

Thank you for your kind response. :)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Archaos on (07:45:06/02-08-15)
I used ab automatic translator to wite in English my alter rules (http://www.archaos-jdr.fr/shadowrun5/index.php?page=SRA) for SR5.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: anchoress on (19:49:22/04-30-15)
Actually, in the last weeks i thought about a problem i've got with high attribute + low skill stats. Not sure if i'm the only one, but thinking about that an average talented human (ATT 3) with years of training (Skill 6) is as equal as a high talented meta (ATT 8) with almost no knowledge in what he is doing (Skill 1) really bothers me.

What came to my mind is this: Creating a new limit. How?
You either use your attribute limits (phsyical, mental, social) OR your skill rating, and you ALWAYS use the lower one (with a minimum of 1). This would bring a bit more of diversification into the successing of skills. Still runner with a high attribute have a lot of dice, but if they are improving or using a level-1 skill they will only succeed with one success.
So a character, who has invested a lot of time and hard work to train and learn a certain skill gets rewarded for that.

A good example for this would be the artisan skill. A character with high INT but only one skillpoint can't just outscale the work of an experienced artist, 'cause s/he is only able to use one success when rolling the skill. Don't know what you think about it - so please let me know ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lucean on (03:45:18/05-04-15)
There are already skills that make success dependant on your skill, like First Aid.
In addition you can provide better results for Teamwork, when you have someone capable in the required skill, because bonus dice are capped at your skill level.

Possibly capping limits to the skill in question would completely ruin balance, as there'd be no point to low skills at all.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: TallonHunteR on (13:16:06/05-12-15)
This one is a simple gear one, my apologies if it has already been posted, did not want to sift through a huge backlog: 

Jensen Lenses:
Cybereyes, but you keep your natch eyes. so...not so much a house rule as this is mostly character style.

you take the same essence loss as you are having DNI's Drilled through your temples instead of eyesockets. you are also bolting the housing to your brow ridge. then you have the sensor housings back near the temples(or a strip along the brow ridge). and finally you have the retracting lenses upon which your image link, smartlink, thermo, w/e is projected.

I guess you COULD bump the cost due to still having eyes (and therefore not as much of a detriment to social tests while someone can see your eyes).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (23:01:51/05-12-15)
I ... would not say that that wouldn't be a detriment.  You would appear, if anything, significantly weirder than a standard natural-looking eye-implant individual, considering this would kind of be a backward-tech steampunkish thing.  I'm not say it ain't interesting (it is!) or stylistic (again, it is!), but it's going to run a higher risk of being damaged, awkwardness, weight issues leading to neck trouble ...
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: SoulGambit on (15:24:39/06-21-15)
Creation and Advancement
- There is no "Magic" or "Metatype" Category for Priority.
- There is no Priority E or D. Note that you can adjust the powerlevel of your game by selecting which priorities are no longer available.
- You have 6 points to spend among the following traits.

- Your "Magic" Attribute is equal to your Spellcasting + Power Points.
- There is no penalty for being at Essence 0.
- If you select Resonance, you may not also select Spellcasting and/or Power Points. If you select Spellcasting and/or Power Points, then you may not also select Resonance.
- You can increase Special Attributes (Essence, Spellcasting, Power Points or Resonance) at a rate of 30 Karma per point. You may only purchase a Non-Essence trait you have at 0 with ST permission.
- Initiation / Submersion does not increase your current or maximum Magic / Spellcasting / Power Points/ Resonance / Essence. You may purchase Magic, Resonance, and Essence indefinitely.

Edge
- Characters begin each play session with 3 Edge.
- Characters who begin with a higher than normal Edge (such as Humans) instead have +1 Edge Point.
- Any other reference to Edge as an Attribute instead refers to Essence.

Magic
- Every character with at least a single point in Spellcasting may cast spells.
- Every character capable of casting spells has a number of "Charges" equal to their Spellcasting Attribute.
- Every time a character casts a spell or summons a Spirit, it consumes 1 Charge.
- Charges spent on a Sustained Spell or a Summoned Spirit (including a Bound Spirit) may not be recovered until that spell ends or the spirit is no longer under the Mage's control.
- Sustained Spells do not impose a cumulative -2 Penalty.
- Spells and Summoning have no Drain.
- As a Complex Action, a Mage may "Refocus." They take 6P damage that may be soaked with Magic + (Attribute dependent on the Mage's Tradition, i.e. Logic for Hermetic or Charisma for Shamanistic), but regain all of their Charges.
- Spells are automatically cast at a Force so that their Drain would normally equal 3 + Grade.
- Use (3 + Grade) in place of Magic for skill rolls that normally use Magic.
- A Mage with Alchemy may prepare up to (Alchemy)/2, rounded up Spells in advance, using the normal rules for Alchemy. These spells do not consume Charges, may not be Overcast (see below), and are not subject to Counterspelling.
- Reckless Casting is removed.
- Summoned and/or Bound Spirits do not have their own Initiative Score. Instead, once per Combat Turn, on the Spellcaster's Initiative, they may have a Spirit take an action as though it was turn during an Initiative Pass. This is in addition to the Mage's normal action. The Spirit's action may take place before or after the Spellcaster.
- Summoned Spirits may not have access to Spells that the Mage does not have, and may not use Sustained or Permanent Duration Spells.
- Summoned Spirits may have a Force up to 3 + Grade.
- A Mage may "Overcast" when casting a spells or summoning a spirits. By taking 2P damage or consuming +2 Charges when casing a spell or summoning/binding a Spirit, they may increase the maximum Force of that action by 2 or their Grade, whichever is higher. A Mage do this multiple times, increasing the Force of their Spells and Spirits as high as they want so long as they are willing to accept the cost. Mages may not Overcast Permanent or Sustained Spells.
- A Mage who Refocuses or Overcasts may not be healed by any means until they are allowed to rest for the equivalent of a full night. Any effect that would heal them still stabilizes them as though they were healed.

Resonance
- Technomancers have a number of "Charges" equal to their Resonance Attribute.
- Every time a character threads a Complex Form, it consumes 1 Charge.
- Charges spent on a Sustained Complex Form or a Compiled Sprite (including Registered Sprites) may not be recovered until that complex form ends or the sprite is no longer under the Technomancer's control.
- Sustained Complex Forms do not impose a cumulative -2 Penalty.
- Complex Forms have no Drain.
- As a Complex Action, a Technomancer may "Refocus." They take 6P damage that may be soaked only with Resonance + Willpower, but regain all of their Charges.
- Complex Forms are automatically cast at a Level so that their Drain would normally equal 5 + Grade.
- Use (3 + Grade) in place of Resonance for skill rolls that normally use Resonance.
- Compiled and/or Registered Sprites do not have their own Initiative Score. Instead, once per Combat Turn per controlled entity, on the controlling Technomancer's Initiative, they may have a Sprite take an action as though it was turn during an Initiative Pass. This is in addition to the Technomancer's normal action.
- Sprites may not have access to Complex Forms that the Technomancer does not have, and may not use Sustained or Permanent Duration Complex Forms.
- Compiled Sprites may have a Level up to 3 + Grade.
- A Technomancer may "Overcast" Complex Forms and Sprites. By taking 2P damage or consuming +2 Charges when Threading a Complex Form or Compiling a Sprite, they may increase the Level of that action by 2 or their Grade, whichever is higher. A Technomancer may do this multiple times, increasing the Level of their Complex Forms and Sprites as high as they want so long as they are willing to accept the cost. Technomancers may not Overcast Permanent or Sustained Complex Forms.
- A Technomancer who Refocuses or Overcasts may not be healed by any means until they are allowed to rest for the equivalent of a full night. Any effect that would heal them still stabilizes them as though they were healed.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on (05:17:21/06-22-15)
That's...ambitious.

I understand that cyberware works the same as before? As in, it reduces essence (and can't make essence drop below 0), so if you want to 'ware it up, you need to get Essence points?

That makes Adept/Street Sams very common, probably. Anyone that would otherwise end up at 1+ essence (which is most people, because money) will instead go for the cheap Adept stuff.

"- Use (3 + Grade) in place of Magic for skill rolls that normally use Magic." gets silly fast. Initiation is already a good deal - and not for the Magic increase, you get it for the metamagics. Initiating to grade 3 before anything else is already a faily common option, and doesn't take that long. And that means you're suddenly throwing around Force 9 Lightning Bolts all the time.
This would also mess with Focused Concentration and Sustaining Foci, unless you can cast them optionally at a lower Force for those. But then again - are FC and Sustaining Foci still a thing in this edition?

On the other hand, mages start out very weak, with a "skill Magic" of 3 out of chargen (since skills don't use the Spellcasting + Power Points formula, but 3+Grade. Why have 2 formula for Magic anyway?).

While the Force of spells is boosted, the Force of spirits is nerfed a lot. In general, these rules are quite harsh on spirits (why the ban on Permanent spells? That makes no sense. I understand Sustained for balance reasons, but Permanent spells aren't ongoing magical effects).

Why the prohibition on healing? I get it if the mage actually took damage, but 6P is doable to soak (with decent odds) fairly quickly once you get a few metamagics (which you will, because of Force). If you take no damage from drain, and then take a bullet to the face, can that not be healed?

"Any effect that would heal them still stabilizes them as though they were healed." isn't  a thing, by the way. Healing never stabilizes - this isn't D&D. Stabilizing is a completely seperate thing.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on (05:18:59/06-22-15)
Also, on spirits: what happens if a spirit enters combat, but his master does not (for a Remote service, for example)?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Stoneglobe on (10:42:55/07-05-15)
My first post to the board.

If any of the mods would prefer to move this to another location I perfectly understand.

I've always had a problem with techomancers as I feel they are an interesting character type but so woefully underpowered that they become virtually unplayable.

In order to make them more interesting I have made the following house rules for technomancers which I personally feel brings them more in line with what the idea behind them is.

Character Creation

Priorities remain the same for creation but all technomancers automatically receive the complex form Transcendant Grid free of charge - I believe this complex form is almost the natural way that technomancers would travel around the grid and that all should have it automatically

Living Persona

One of the biggest issues I have with technomaners is how dependent they are on so many attributes so instigated the rule below for the living Persona:
Total ASDF = Resonance x 3.5 rounded up
ASDF max Limit = Resonance + 1
Re-configure your Living Persona with a free action
Also the +2 dice pool for Hot VR works for Resonance actions

Automatic Abilities
All technomancers receive the following abilities:
Skin Link - no longer an advanced echo but just a natural part of being a technomancer
Techno Link - All technomancers automatically receive both the image link and smartgun link free as a side effect of their unique powers. These are not cyberware implants and do not cost any essence.
Resonance PAN - protect a number of devices up to Resonance/2 round down, but Living Persona must be active (AR or VR). Simple action to swap logic/2 round down devices
To reflect their advanced and unique connection to the matrix all technomancers receive a Resonance/2 round down dice pool for all matrix actions. This bonus does not apply to Resonance actions.

Sublimation is allowed using starting karma from character creation (I also allow magicians to initiate)

Complex Form Fade adjustments

Personally I find that the Fade rating of complex forms is just too high so I have adjusted them to fall in line with the equivalent drain a magician will suffer for similar spells:
   
Cleaner    L-3   Equivalent to spell Sterilise
Derezz       L-1   Based on amended Resonance Spike with additional modifier for Firewall reduction. No damage resistance test (as per Resonance Spike)
Diffusion Of [Matrix Attribute]   L-2   Equivalent to spell Decrease [Attribute]
Editor      L-2   Equivalent to spell Magic Fingers. Ignores Databombs
FAQ           L   Equivalent to spell Mind Probe
IC Tray   L-2   Equivalent to spell Detect Enemies
Infusion Of [Matrix Attribute]        L-3   Equivalent to spell Increase [Attribute]
Misread Marks   L-2   Similar to Spell double Image but only effects IC so reduction in Fade
Pulse Storm   L-3   Equivalent to spell Confusion
Puppeteer   L-1   Equivalent to spells Control Actions/Thoughts
Redundancy      L-2   Sits somewhere between the spells Increase [Attribute] (F-3) & Reinforce (F-1)
Resonance ChannelL-3   Equivalent to spells Clairvoyance/Clairaudience
Resonance Spike   L-3   Equivalent to spells Manabolt/Powerbolt
Resonance Veil   L-1   Equivalent to Spell Phantasm
Static Bomb   L-2   Equivalent to spell Invisibility
Static Veil   L-2   Equivalent to spell Invisibility
Stitches   L-4   Equivalent to Heal. Can also be used on a living Persona
Tattletale   L-3   Equivalent to spell Confusion
Transcendent Grid   L-5   All technomancers automatically receive this complex form free of charge

Echo Amendments
Skin Link is removed as becomes a natural ability
Resonance (Program) - this allows the Technomancer to create a number of program slots on his Living Persona equal to Resonance/3 round down. The Technomancer must have previously bought the program and committed it to memory (Software + Resonance [Resonance] 60 minutes) test. The Technomancer may memorise a number of programs equal to his Resonance and can swap memorised programs into the active program slots with a Free Action.
All other echos remain the same

New Complex Form

Resonance Infusion
Target: Device   Duration: I    Fade: L-1 (equivalent to spell Mana Bind)
The Technomancer channels pure Resonance into the target device allowing the technomancer to effect the device in the same way as if it were wirelessly active. This can be targeted on any device that has wireless capability regardless of whether the device is currently running in wireless or not.
As the technomancer is using resonance to effect the device rather than wireless matrix the device only defends with it's personal ratings rather than the increased ratings available if included in a PAN/WAN (unless in another technomancer's Resonance PAN).
Make a Hardware+Resonance [Resonance] vs Device Rating + Firewall with the effect lasting for 1 + net hits rounds.
The owner of the device will be unaware of the attack unless they are also able to access the Resonance in some way."

Would be interested to hear other player and gamemaster views on the above.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (11:15:08/07-05-15)
I think your house rules are pretty good, Stoneglobe, thank you for sharing!

Some might think it's a little overpowered to give them smartlink for free in addition to skinlink and imagelink (no soundlink?), but I don't think it's too bad and people could always house rule that one themselves. I'm a little wary of your Resonance Infusion, however; what's the range limitation? If you can do it to any device anywhere without needing line of sight or touch it's way too powerful for my taste. I'd add a range requirement of Resonance meters or something like that.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Stoneglobe on (12:07:24/07-05-15)
Thanks for the feedback Herr Brakhaus

You know, I always forget the sound link when I'm writing these things up

Also the Resonance Infusion is based on Line Of Sight out to Resonance2 meters. Didn't notice that I'd missed that when I was copying and pasting from my house rules pack. Thanks for pointing that out.

I personally don't find the addition of the smartgun link particularly overpowering in gameplay but as you have said if anyone choses to use these they can modify them as much as they wish.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Top Dog on (15:17:54/07-05-15)
I don't think I'm a fan of completely decoupling ASDF from mental attributes as a technomancer. Perhaps limit the relevant ASDF stats to the linked ability +3? Leaves a lot of freedom, but you can't dump them outright as a technomancer.

I don't see a big problem with free smartlinks. It's only a +1 extra (for an archetype that's traditionally quite terrible at combat) plus a few nuyen saved. Sounds good. Image/Sound Link makes sense too.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Stoneglobe on (17:29:32/07-05-15)
I don't think I'm a fan of completely decoupling ASDF from mental attributes as a technomancer. Perhaps limit the relevant ASDF stats to the linked ability +3? Leaves a lot of freedom, but you can't dump them outright as a technomancer.

It's a perfectly valid option that I did consider when re-designing the rules but in the end preferred my way as it gives additional encouragement for technomancers to continue with sublimation and also doesn't penalise or reward playing certain metatypes. With my system you can finally have a Troll Technomancer who can hold his own against the elven one.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Chronos on (20:16:44/08-09-15)
So ultimately it will be up to my table, as we take turns GMing and we are doing everything pretty by the book, but I was going to propose the following as an option for aspected mages. (I assume our mage will be for it, considering he aspected and that was less than awesome). Anyway, I would love to hear some thoughts on it from you guys.

Aspected perks!
Basically when you pick aspected this houserule would give you something for it. "X" in each instance is the number of spells a full mage of one higher priority would get and "Y" corresponds to the priority as well. So for priority B:X=10 Y=3, C:X=7 Y=2, D:X=5 Y=1.

Sorcery: X spells or rituals for free and a Yforce spell focus of whichever school they like.

Enchanting: X alchemical spells, X10 reagents, Yforce enchanting focus.

Conjuring: X2 karma worth of already bound spirits (none of which may have a higher force than the mage's magic), X50 reagents, Yforce spirit focus.

All foci come unbound and if it's a practical item (a spear or staff or something) you must buy that item. Thoughts?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: falar on (09:52:17/09-29-15)
Alchemy Rewrite

Over the last couple of weeks, I've been working on a rewrite of Alchemy. A lot of it stays the same, but there are a couple of key differences throughout. A summary of the changes and additions are as follows:

If you want to look at any of this in more depth, check out my REALLY LONG POST ON REDDIT. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/3mqpzw/5e_falars_alchemy_rewrite_wall_of_text/) I basically took the SR5 rules and inserted my changes and added stuff at the end.





Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: fenrir4life on (14:02:25/10-20-15)
I seem to have fallen onto the Technomancer Issues bandwagon.  I'm toying with the idea of a restructuring with the following purposes:
1) allow a technomancer to protect the party's devices in a similar way to a decker
2) circumvent the problem of technomancers having to submerge to get abilities that seem completely intuitive for every 'mancer to have.
3) reduce the Technomancer's painful combination of MAD/MSD and matrix limits that prevent them from accomplishing most hacking tasks without spending Edge
4) fix some of the "trap" complex forms and bring fading values a bit more in line with actual effect
5) Do the above without further enhancing the pokemancer playstyle, as it doesn't really need much help.


To that end, I'm considering the following changes
1) Resonance PAN.  Your resonance is your living persona's device rating, as established on p.251,  I don't think extending PAN functionality to technomancers is particularly harmful; while they might be able to protect a great number of devices, a midcost deck running a common-use program can still have a higher Firewall than any 'mancer can start with, even with the other changes I'm proposing.

2) Smartlink. imagelink and soundlink compatibility.  Choice of Browse, Signal Scrub, or MMRI/Mind Over Machine as an innate ability (the ones not chosen can still, of course, be taken as echoes- the intent is to grant a starting 'mancer a choice of speed, range, or the ability to be a ghostdamned rigger out of the gate)

3) When using your Living Persona: Resonance may be substituted for Logic, Intuition, Willpower or Charisma when calculating Matrix attributes(but not die pools for Matrix actions).  You can change which one you are substituting as a free action(Intended to alleviate the MAD pressure without removing it entirely).  Resonance may also be substituted for the Cracking skill group.  This does not actually give you the skill group, nor can you take specialties in these skills, unless you purchase them separately, starting from rank 1 (which, if you plan to grab a deck at some point, isn't necessarily a bad idea- the purpose of this is to give 'mancers a baseline intuitive functionality in the matrix, but one that is far more expensive to improve than raising the actual skills would be.  The best Hackermancers are still the ones that are actually hackers)

4) Enact the following changes to CFs that emulate spells
Diffusion/Infusion CFs will inherit the Drain/Fade values of the Decrease/Increase attribute spells: L-2 and L-3, respectively.
Puppeteer:  Will behave essentially like the Control Thoughts spell:
Target: Device  Duration: S  F: L-1
You push Resonance commands into a target, forcing it to perform Matrix actions. Pick a target and make a Software + Resonance[Level] v. Willpower + Firewall test.  Keep track of your net hits, as they determine how long you can sustain the complex form. While the complex form is sustained, the owner/user of the device may take a Complex Action on their turn to resist by making a Willpower+Firewall Test with a dice pool penalty equal to the complex form's Level; every hit the target gets reduces the technomancer's net hits by 1. The device's owner/user can take this action even if they wouldn’t get an action because of the complex form. The complex form ends when your net hits are reduced to zero.  These subsequent resistance rolls may only be made once the device's owner knows something is amiss- generally, after the first action they didn't tell the device to perform, although an owned-but-unattended device will be significantly more vulnerable.
Resonance Spike: inherits the drain value of the single-target Direct Combat spells it emulates: L-3


Thoughts?  Am I going too far?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bulshock on (14:24:13/10-20-15)
@Fenrir4life I like them overall, but number 3 is very very powerful.  I would recommended putting some sort of hard limit on it for those.  Especially for a long game.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: fenrir4life on (19:06:40/10-20-15)
For the Cracking substitution, I think it's fairly self-regulating, given how much more expensive it is than raising the skills.  For ASDF, I can see hardcapping it at 9- the 'mancer in question still isn't going to stack up too well against anything by Shiawase or Fairlight, and their die pools will still be based on their actual attributes.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bulshock on (19:25:44/10-20-15)
I was more referring to it then being used instead of the Cracking Group, and then is also used with all the Resonance skills, making it the one true ability for a Technomancer to raise.  If I was playing a Technomancer with that rule I would ditch the Cracking Group entirely, as raising a Skill Group costs as much as raising an Attribute, and you're likely to already be planning on raising Resonance.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: fenrir4life on (19:46:14/10-20-15)
I hear you, but that's... kind of the idea.  Let technomancers actually splash some other skillset, too.  Learn to shoot, learn to talk to people, hell, learn to fly a helicopter.  If you want to be a true master of the matrix, it's worth your while to buy those skills up and take specialties, but if you want to be, say, a face or a rigger, then you can be decent at that and still be a technomancer.
And if you are equating costs, I'll point out that each point of resonance above 6 will also require submersion.  It's not that you don't get anything else from submersion, but a lot of the echoes are pretty lackluster, and it's still a cost speedbump.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Bulshock on (20:15:20/10-20-15)
I've been playing a Technomancer for a while, and even with the lackluster Echo's and Resonance not being able to replace Cracking Group I still keep going back and forth on if I should raise Resonance or if I should raise Cracking stuff.  With that change I would go Resonance each time, no question.  As that would raise the Level of stuff that I can do with my Resonance abilities as well as give me better hacking.  Because to be a Hacking Technomancer you still need Resonance.  So I would be looking at it as 'well I could Submerge and raise my Resonance... or I could Submerge, raise my Resonance and raise my Cracking Group...".  Though maybe I'm just odd in not being able to think of a Technomancer that wouldn't use Resonance based abilities while being focused on hacking.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: fenrir4life on (11:25:24/10-21-15)
Don't really want to exacerbate echo taxation, but I could see capping it at 6 for Cracking substitution, with an echo you could take twice to raise the cap by 3 each time...
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: falar on (11:40:14/10-21-15)
I think a better way to do it might be to just add "Cracking Skill Group at 2/Cracking Skill Group at 4/Cracking Skill Group at 6" to the appropriate priorities in priority-gen.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: fenrir4life on (13:58:35/10-21-15)
That would help address the issue that TMs get less per priority teir than most awakened, and it avoids the godstatting of Resonance that my approach could lead to.  Thanks!
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: falar on (15:07:23/10-21-15)
My adjusted priorities gave them 2 technical skills at the same rating as the resonance skills.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: gradivus on (15:07:05/11-30-15)
Quality- Aged

Right now, Aged is a same fit for everyone which is not sensible since different metatypes have different life expediencies. So I believe it should be something like this:

             -1             -2           -3
Ork/Troll   40-47   48-54   55+
Humans   50-59   60-69   70+
Dwarf   60-79   80-99   100+
Elves   100-199   200-299   300+


I really need to learn how to format in these forums

The age groups in red should not normally be allowed as these metatypes haven't been around long enough to be this old yet. However, the exception would be a person born human who later changed metatype during the surge.
 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: LukeZ on (11:19:29/12-04-15)
I was thinking about creating 4 new "archetype" Positive Qualities:
- Street Samurai
- Decker
- Rigger
- Face

I still don't know what they could/should do...
Any ideas?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Fizzygoo on (02:40:22/12-15-15)
Cross posting from GM's Toolbox as it contains house rules, vehicle gear, etc. (prefer comments/questions there to avoid stepping on existing conversations here):

What started as a compilation of vehicle mods/additions soon snowballed into this. With Rigger 5.0 coming soon, I figure it's mostly moot but maybe not. Anyway, if you need to string together some vehicle changes this may be the bailing wire and duct tape you need until the professional Rigger 5.0 :)

Juryrigged (http://fizzygoo.com/Sr/Support/juryrigged.pdf)

(Note: I am aware it needs editing, there's only so many times one can read their own work out loud until the bleeding clogs up one's hearing. But I'm always appreciative of specific examples, etc. More important is how well the new rules integrate into the core rules, issues arising from there, etc.)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lorebane24 on (22:26:59/01-27-16)
I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but it seemed to fit.  In any case, I wanted to find a way to give a little something back to the community here, and this is all I can come up with.  These are the "fixes" that I've come up with to the problems that have been most common in my own games, and a lot of these are aimed towards addressing a power disparity in PCs when a couple have a significantly higher degree of system mastery.  Figured a few people might want to use these, or maybe a few vets can spot problems in these changes that I have missed.  In any case, here are the changes I've made to RAW in my games since the inception of SR5, along with explanations as to why I felt the need to make the changes.

Changing Nuyen to Karma
   Everyone needs karma, but some need more than others, and most of the time those guys don't need that much nuyen.  Between runs, you can pay out nuyen to get a special type of karma (We're just calling it Special Karma) that cannot be spent to increase skills or standard attributes (this is good for increase Magic or Resonance, learning new spells and binding foci, submersion or initiation, picking up new qualities, etc...).  You gain 2 points of special karma for every 2500 nuyen spent, and cannot spend more than 10,000 nuyen in this way between runs.  This expenditure is represented in-game as donations to charity, spent on special training, or invested into special reagents that may accelerate meditation.

Running Programs on Commlinks
   A commlink can run standard (non-hacking) programs.  It can run a number of programs equal to 1/3 its rating.

Changes to Slaved Devices
   An active commlink or deck CAN slave devices.

Changes to Technomancer
   Right now, technomancers are gimped to the point of having exactly one playable build, and that build is still usually not as good as a decker.  The following changes to their creations rules should open up some options for them.  Generally speaking, a technomancer under these rules will be less versatile than a decker, but more consistently potent in the areas in which they chose to focus on.  A decker will likely also have a higher upper limit in a single Matrix Attribute at a time, while Technomancers will usually have a few Attributes that are always almost as high, while being more vulnerable in the Attributes they neglect.
   A technomancer's matrix attributes are not derived from their mental attributes.  Instead, a newly created technomancer gets a number of points to distribute among these attributes equal to their Resonance x3 +3.  No attribute can ever be higher than their mental limit.  This limit is ignored by the attribute-enhancing submersion abilities.  Whenever their Resonance attribute increases, they gain 3 more points to distribute.
   A technomancer is capable of learning special complex forms that essentially duplicate the effects of programs, but they cannot utilize as many as a decker.  They can learn a maximum number of these programs equal to half their Resonance (rounded up), and cannot learn any of the attribute-enhancing programs or the configurator program.  These programs require no check to run, and do not need to be sustained, but he can only learn a total number of programs equal to half his/her Resonance.  Note that these programs are generally not as powerful as actual complex forms, so learning them is a less efficient use of resources for the technomancer, but sometimes a specific program may be crucial to a build or playstyle, and this allows a player to acquire that program without having to go through submersion.
   Finally, a technomancer's abilities stand up slightly better to essence loss than a mage's, and they do not take penalties to their Resonance score until AFTER they have lost one full point of essence.  It is very common for technomancer to get an implanted datajack to allow them to make direct connections.

Split to Sneaking (Urban) Specialization
   The sneaking specialization of (Urban) is just way too good considering that you're almost always in a city.  It is being split into (streets) and (indoors).  The former applies when you are moving through an outdoor urban area, the latter when you are attempting to sneak while inside a building.

Run-And-Gun Combat Styles
   These are cool, but I think they're just a little too expensive.  Each trick of a combat style costs 3 karma each, and it costs you 5 karma to pick up the first trick in a style.

Hard Cap on Die Rolls
   To keep things from ever getting crazy out-of-hand, and to encourage versatility over extreme specialization, you can NEVER roll more than 25 dice for a check, after modifiers.  Your base die pool can exceed 25 dice, but once that happens, you are essentially gaining free dice to spend on tricks that result in penalties, that might soak up some extra AP, or you might split your die pool so you can get them all.  In a nuthsell, one roll will NEVER be more than 25 dice, with a possible exception made for great dragons.

Free Skills
   Everyone automatically starts off with 1 rank each in Pistols, Perception, Sneak, Etiquette, and Computer.  These are skills no shadowrunner should ever default on, and cost you no points to obtain.  They can be improved normally, but you cannot pick up a specialization in them until your rank has already been improved to at least 2.

Free Fake SIN
   A fake SIN is an absolutely critical item to shadowrunning, but they are quite expensive, and represent an enormous tax on anyone who wants to choose Priority D or E for resources.  The same priority for nearly any other aspect is far less crippling, so to give the poor a little bit of love, everyone has a free Rating 4 Fake SIN.

SINer Negative Quality
   The Corporate and Corporate Limited SINs return far too many points for what they do.  You gain 5 Karma back for having a Corporate Limited SIN, and 10 Karma for a Corporate SIN.  Furthermore, if you have either of these qualities, it means that you are still in a corporate database and on at the least friendly terms with that corp, because if you had pissed them off they just would have burned your SIN.  This means such a quality is an important part of your character's backstory.  You may even still be on corporate payroll.  Finally, if you chose the basic SINer quality (a national SIN) you must chose which nation you are a citizen of.

Physical Adepts Starting Conditions
   If you chose a priority for being a physical adept that would grant you free ranks in an active skill, you may instead chose to learn a fighting style from Run & Gun.  You must chose a single style, and you know 1 technique from that style for each rank in an active skill you would have otherwise gained.
   Also, the Ways in Street Grimoire go a long way in making adepts playable, but still feel just a little bit costly.  It costs 15 karma to follow a Way rather than 20.
   Also, the Astral Perception adept power has what I think is a bit of a vaguery in it, and I want to clarify how I interpret it here.  It DOES allow you to engage astral beings in Astral Combat, but their astral form must be close enough to yours for you to reach them as you would in the physical world.  Since you cannot project, your astral form is tethered to your physical form, which means that it is relatively easy for astral entities to avoid you if they are capable of flight in the astral plane.  Of course, if there is any sort of astral cover, this works in your favor as well, since other creatures cannot attack you through it, normal.

Mystic Adepts and Power Points
   Right now, Mystic Adepts are just too good.  More importantly, they're too predictable, so I'm making a targeted strike at the very common build of a Mystic Adept who takes level 3 Improved Reflexes and Astral Perception to effectively become a magician with +3d6 initiative dice.  I don't mind seeing Mystic Adepts in the game, but I'm hoping that making the more powerful adept abilities more costly for them will lead to a greater variety of builds, while also letting Physical Adepts retain more of a niche by making those powers quasi-exclusive to them.
   Instead of the usual 5 karma per power point, a Mystic Adept buys power points on a gradient scale, paying a cumulative 3 karma per power point.  For example, their first power point costs 3 karma, their seconds costs 6 additional karma, their third costs an additional 9, etc...  This, combined with the change to Astral Perception, ensures that while they can still be potent, they are not as astrally versatile as a dedicated magician and that the most powerful Adept powers are now the domain of dedicated Physical Adepts.

Summoning Smackdown
   Summoning spirits is currently one of the most overpowered things in the game.  A single skill gives you access to a diverse variety of spirits who are all extremely potent in a variety of areas, allowing a specialized conjurer to do basically anything, especially when you factor in the fact that they continue casting spells at their enemies once the spirit is summoned.  There are a couple of measure that I am taking to try to reign in the potency of players using spirits.
   First, when you summon a spirit, you must invest a portion of your own magic to keep it grounded in the material world.  When it manifests (or possesses someone, in the case of possession-based traditions), you temporarily lose one point of Magic that is returned to you when the spirit is returned to its home plane for any reason.  If you bind a spirit, you bypass this limitation, as the karma you spend in the binding process is enough to sustain your spirit.  This should help to make binding a more viable option.
   Secondly, I want to focus on reigning in the “do everything” ability of summoning rather than a spirit's power to perform in its intended role.  To that end, a mage must learn to summon each individual spirit type, just as they would a spell.  They can do this by learning the spirit formula and spending karma, or by using their spell slots at character creation.
   I am making it riskier to summon spirits with very high forces.  This risk kicks in whenever you attempt to summon a spirit with a force greater than your post-summoning magic score (so a magician with Magic 6 would risk this mishap when summoning any spirit with a Force of 6 or greater).  If you try to summon such a spirit and fail to obtain any services, the spirit is summoned as an uncontrolled free spirit.  In addition to having very unpredictable immediate consequences, this will negatively impact your reputation in the local magical community in a large way.
   Finally, please keep in mind that summoned or even bound spirits are not under your direct control.  You use a service to tell them what to do, and they fulfill that service to the best of their ability.  If you have a poor reputation in the spirit world, spirits will do what they can to twist the wording of your commands.

Buff to Aspected Magicians
   Currently these dudes sucks major ass.  We're gonna work on changing that.  Based on which priority you choose, you receive a set numbers of ranks in a relevant skill group, and bit of free stuff based on which skill group you take.  Spellcasting skill group grants free spells and rituals, Enchanting skill group grants free alchemical formulas and artifacing recipes, and Conjuring skill groups grants spirit formulas and a number of free bound spirits.  These spirits have a Force equal to your Magic -1, and owe you a number of services equal to your starting ranks in the Conjuring skill group.  Here is what you get:

Priority B:  6 Ranks, Spellcasting (8 spells + 4 rituals), Conjuring (5 spirit formulas + 3 bound spirits), Enchanting, (8 alchemical formulas + 4 recipes)

Priority C:  4 Ranks, Spellcasting (6 spells + 2 rituals), Conjuring (3 spirit formulas + 2 bound spirit), Enchanting (6 alchemical formulas + 2 recipes)

Priority D:  2 Ranks, Spellcasting (3 spells + 1 ritual), Conjuring (2 spirit formulas + 1 bound spirit), Enchanting (3 alchemical formulas + 1 recipe)

This skill group does NOT count against the standard limit on skill groups, and note that Priority B even allows you to bypass the usual rank cap on skill groups for new characters.  Also, aspected magicians can astrally project, just like a dedicated magician.

SMG and Recoil
   Mechanically, there is very little reason to use an SMG – they are barely more concealable than an assault rifle, and they do significantly less damage while lacking the armor penetration.  This give them a bit of oomph, all SMGs have 1 extra point of natural recoil compensation to account for the fact that their larger frames can more easily handle the pistol-caliber bullets they typically fire.

Machine Gun Damage Boost
   It's really weird to me that a lot of the machine guns in the game are actually worse than their lighter assault rifle cousins, so they're going to be getting a sizable buff.  For starters, all LMGs have -3 AP, MMGs all have -4 AP, and HMGs have a whopping -5 AP, unless any specific gun already has a higher AP rating (as is the case with the vidicator minigun).  They pack a punch, but they aren't subtle and usually require heavy investment in recoil compensation to use effectively.  There are going to be weapons that can shoot bullets faster, weapons that do more damage, or weapons that pierce armor better, but I want to make this class of weapons king when it comes to marrying the three.  They are the loud, unwieldy workhorses of killin' folk  As for damage, that is being updated on a case by case basis as follows.
   Ingram Valiant – 11P
   SA Nemesis – 10P
   Stoner Ares M202 – 12P
   FN Mag-5 – 11P
   Utlamax MMG – 12P
   RPK HMG – 14P
   Ruhrmetall SF-20 – 13P
   Ultamax HMG-2 – 12P
   
Minor Flechette Ammo Buff
   Flechette ammo is cool as hell, but as written, it gives you what is BARELY a statistical buff to damage because of the bonus an armored target gets to resist.  I'm scaling this bonus back just a notch to make the advantage of this more expensive ammunition type more consistently noticeable.  Flechette ammo gives a target +4 AP instead of the RAW +5.

Increased Availability on OP Weapons.
   There are a few items (generally weapons) that, while technically being available to new characters, are objectively the best items in their class, outperforming even some of their more difficult to obtain “upgrades.”  I am increasing the availability of the following weapons, which also puts them beyond the reach of new characters.
   Ares Alpha Assault Rifle – 16F
   Enfield AS-7 Shotgun – 15F
   Mossberg AM-CMDT Shotgun – 14F
   Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle – 24F
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (22:35:28/01-27-16)
*stuff*
Nuyen to Karma - That's already a thing, though mainly for Missions games. It's called "Working for the Man" or "Working for the People" and it's 2,000¥ to 1 Karma, up to 10,000¥ or 5 Karma per downtime. So your Street Sam can turn up to 5 Karma into extra money for that shiny new chrome. Or your Mage can turn up to 10,000¥ into extra Karma for learning spells and binding Foci.

Commlink programs - Also a thing in Data Trails, sorta. They can't run Cyber-programs, but there is a listing of programs that a Commlink could run.

Slaving Devices - Also a thing... if you just look past that single solitary sentence and realize how huge the ramifications would be for trying to include such a stupid and asinine interpretation (not you personally, this is just my pet peeve). If you can't Slave devices to something that's active, how do Riggers maintain a PAN for their drones?

Technomancers
- At first glance, I kinda like the idea of distributing Resonance stuffs out to your ASDF. Something to consider would be re-distributing like Deckers can.
- Duplicating programs is pretty cool, and it's lame that they have to waste an Echo to learn a single program. Maybe keep it as an Echo, but they only need to take it once in order to unlock the ability to learn 1/2 Resonance worth?
- Essence loss is supposed to be scary, both for Mages and for TMs. I don't think this suggestion needs to happen. The way I worked around TM Direct Connection, is to have them plug in a Commlink directly, and use that as a WiFi Hotspot. They aren't hacking "with" the Commlink, just using it as a means to talk to the target device.

Specializations - By that measure, most of them are "too good". Take Pistols (Semi-auto) and suddenly +2 to anything that counts as a Pistol anyway. Riggers who don't take Pilot Craft (Remote Control) for a constant +2 are touched in the head.

Hard Cap - Nah... the basic mechanics are clearly working towards fat handfuls of dice.

Free Skills - Again, not a fan. Not everybody learns how to shoot (Cyril Figgis), or how to stick to the shadows (Kronk), or talk their way into the fancy restaurant (Ferris Bueller), or even check email (Grandma). You're deflating people's uniqueness. The only skill everybody should have is Perception, but I still wouldn't give it out for free. I did however, make character sheets with Perception printed on them to remind people.

Free SINs - Once again, deflating uniqueness. Runners are notorious for being SINless. If you have one, even a fake, you're no longer SINless. These things are there for a few reasons; to unburden Runners of some moneys now and then, and so they can decide just how much effort to put into cover identities (if any).

SINner - If you have an actual Corp related SIN, it's only a matter of time before you're dead. The reason they're expensive is b/c they are a hazard to your health. The first time you leave evidence at a crime scene, you will be implicating your Corp in the crime. They run the blood or fingerprints, and a screen comes up that says "Warning: Records sealed. Ares Personnel Only" and now they know that you have ties to Ares. At the same time, the hit on your record alerts Ares directly, and they send a HTR to stop you from getting fingers pointed at them.
- Also, if you chose to be an ordinary SINner, of course you have to choose the nationality. You can't just walk around today saying "Sure I'm a citizen. I've got a passport and everything! ... A citizen of where? Well, uhh... countries."

Astral Adept - Yes, you've described Astral Perception correctly. You become Dual Natured, and gain an Astral Form which overlaps your physical. You cannot engage Spirits that are flying off into the distance (since you lack ranged Mana spells) but you can go hand-to-hand with them. Anyone who thought otherwise should re-read Perception vs Projection. Oh, except for the Astral cover thing, that's wrong. Nothing physical exists in the Astral, so if you're hiding around a corner, a Spirit could come through the wall behind you, or just claw you through the wall.

Summoning - I kinda like this stuff. Spirits are an annoying iWin button.

Aspected - Nope, nope, nope. Aspected are not Specialist Mages. They don't get to be more awesome for having dedicated their lives to a single school of magic. They are handicapped runts, riding the short broom, wearing pointed hats with chin straps. They don't need more, they need to go away. They should have stayed an NPC archetype.

Availability - Umm... the Ares Alpha, and both of those shotguns, were kinda meant to be "the go to" choices on purpose. That's why they're as awesome as they are.
- The Gauss rifle is a typo which got corrected in the errata already. It's supposed to be 24F.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lorebane24 on (22:55:02/01-27-16)
I admit, I was rather proud of the technomancer and summoning changes.  The big thing I'm aiming for with these changes is diversity in games.  It felt to me before like there was pretty much one technomancer build you could play and be viable, summoning was, as you described, and "i win" button, mystic adepts were always basically mages with +3d6 initiative dice, and everyone was toting around the same weapons (hence the availability increase.  It's a personal preference, but I prefer there not be a single best option for new characters).  This is also my purpose between my hard die pool cap - I want to encourage versatility over extreme specialization, and I've had a history of PCs who use the system to shatter the laws of physics and really turn newer players off to our group.

I'm hoping that these changes to technomancers are going to make them better at Matrix combat, being able to have consistently high attributes in several important stats, while deckers are likely to be better at legwork and digging, since you are usually only using one matrix stat at a time in that circumstance and it's easy for them to shuffle around their programs to make sure that that stat is always as high as it can be for any given test.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: falar on (11:45:27/01-28-16)
One thing that I noted - using karma for binding is not in the rules. You can do it at character creation, but during play, it just costs money. I think a karma cost for bound spirits is definitely a decent house rule.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (12:20:26/01-28-16)
One thing that I noted - using karma for binding is not in the rules. You can do it at character creation, but during play, it just costs money. I think a karma cost for bound spirits is definitely a decent house rule.
I missed that part on the first read through, but you're right. Summoning and Binding doesn't require Karma, it requires Reagents. Which I think is fair, given that even though Spirits are powerful they are also disposable. If you're constantly sacrificing Karma just to make them, you're never going to grow as a character. That would be like making someone pay Karma every time they used a Focus, instead of just the first time they Bind it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: falar on (12:57:15/01-28-16)
Honestly, I can see something where bound spirits is something that you actually progress. You can have one spirit bound as a Mage/Mystic Adept. To be able to bind another spirit costs 10 karma. You can have a maximum number of bound spirits equal to your Charisma.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: jim1701 on (13:03:14/01-28-16)
Honestly, I can see something where bound spirits is something that you actually progress. You can have one spirit bound as a Mage/Mystic Adept. To be able to bind another spirit costs 10 karma. You can have a maximum number of bound spirits equal to your Charisma.

That's a lot of Karma for one bound spirit.  As useful as bound spirits can be that seems too much like a karma pit for my tastes.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: falar on (13:05:17/01-28-16)
Five is probably more appropriate. Make it another Spirit Formula. 5 for the Summoning, 5 for the Binding.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lorebane24 on (23:41:23/01-28-16)
I've been thinking about tweaking the addiction negative quality.  I feel like it's not particularly interesting right now, and with the way that addiction rules currently work, it seems like someone could take a mild addiction to a substance with a low addiction threshold and low frequency of rolls and pretty much never notice a negative effect from it.  Basically, what I am pondering is that instead of having a craving strike once a month or once a week or whatever, each addiction quality has a threshold attached to it for Will + Cha rolls characters will have to make to avoid indulging.  Maybe starting at Threshold 2 for a mild addiction and increasing by 1 for each bump up in severity.

Now there are two ways that addictions can come into play.  First for addictions that do not have stat-based penalties, such as gambling or BTLs.  When the character is confronted by the object of their addiction, they have to make a roll against their threshold to avoid indulging.

It works a bit differently for addictions that result in actual penalties, such as drugs.  Every so often based on the severity of their addiction (Maybe once per two or three sections at mild, once or twice per session at sever and burnout, to set a spectrum) the GM has the character roll against their threshold before something important happens, like meeting with Mr. Johnson or infiltrating a building.  On a failure, the character has been unable to resist their vice and shows up under the influence of their vice.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: jim1701 on (15:21:44/01-29-16)
I've been thinking about tweaking the addiction negative quality.  I feel like it's not particularly interesting right now, and with the way that addiction rules currently work, it seems like someone could take a mild addiction to a substance with a low addiction threshold and low frequency of rolls and pretty much never notice a negative effect from it.  Basically, what I am pondering is that instead of having a craving strike once a month or once a week or whatever, each addiction quality has a threshold attached to it for Will + Cha rolls characters will have to make to avoid indulging.  Maybe starting at Threshold 2 for a mild addiction and increasing by 1 for each bump up in severity.

Now there are two ways that addictions can come into play.  First for addictions that do not have stat-based penalties, such as gambling or BTLs.  When the character is confronted by the object of their addiction, they have to make a roll against their threshold to avoid indulging.

It works a bit differently for addictions that result in actual penalties, such as drugs.  Every so often based on the severity of their addiction (Maybe once per two or three sections at mild, once or twice per session at sever and burnout, to set a spectrum) the GM has the character roll against their threshold before something important happens, like meeting with Mr. Johnson or infiltrating a building.  On a failure, the character has been unable to resist their vice and shows up under the influence of their vice.

Thoughts?

Mild addiction is only a 5 point NQ so it's not supposed to be a constant drag on the character.  As long as he paying to support his habit I don't see a problem with it not causing other issues for the character.  What it sounds like you are proposing is bumping up the severity of each level of addiction without a corresponding bump in karma. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lorebane24 on (21:25:17/02-04-16)
So I'm thinking about implementing a new Matrix house rule (along with a lot of others my old GM pulled from a website - they're tested and true), but I figured I'd try to get an opinion or two here before actually going live with it in my game.

I love deckers, but in the past, when I've played them they don't seem to have time to do much because of how fast encounters play out.  Their need to Mark everything first seems to set them back a bit.  Now I don't want to just remove marks because the varying number required for different actions is a balancing factor.

So what I was going to do was make Matrix actions simple actions instead of complex actions provided you have a DNI, with a couple of stipulations.  First, you can only ever undertake a single marking action in a turn.  Second, if you take two actions, they have to be keyed to different Matrix attributes (attack, sleaze, data processing, firewall) because your deck or living persona is dedicated all of it's programs or whatever of that sort to that action.  Third, if you are in AR and undertake both a Matrix action and an action in the physical world, you are considered distracted for both actions and take a -2 die pool penalty to each of them.

Does this seem okay?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (00:02:47/02-05-16)
Suggest you open up a thread for it; this one is not meant for (well, meant a lot less for) discussion.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (01:30:22/02-16-16)
So I'm thinking about implementing a new Matrix house rule (along with a lot of others my old GM pulled from a website - they're tested and true), but I figured I'd try to get an opinion or two here before actually going live with it in my game.

I love deckers, but in the past, when I've played them they don't seem to have time to do much because of how fast encounters play out.  Their need to Mark everything first seems to set them back a bit.  Now I don't want to just remove marks because the varying number required for different actions is a balancing factor.

So what I was going to do was make Matrix actions simple actions instead of complex actions provided you have a DNI, with a couple of stipulations.  First, you can only ever undertake a single marking action in a turn.  Second, if you take two actions, they have to be keyed to different Matrix attributes (attack, sleaze, data processing, firewall) because your deck or living persona is dedicated all of it's programs or whatever of that sort to that action.  Third, if you are in AR and undertake both a Matrix action and an action in the physical world, you are considered distracted for both actions and take a -2 die pool penalty to each of them.

Does this seem okay?

I have a houserule for this issue.  It's what I've called "blitzing" your actions.  It's similar to trying to get two marks at a time with Hack on the Fly or Brute force, but a little more costly in exchange for the versatility and speed.

So combining 2 different matrix actions at a a time (like HotF and Snoop) can be done with this houserule but it will cost you. 
First you roll only once and use the lower dicepool of the two actions in question.  (so codeslinger probably won't help)
Second, you take a -4 just like you were trying to place two marks with a single action.
Third, you must also spend your free action to make the necessary tweaks to your hack.

If you succeed, then you get both things done with one action.  The penalty means you won't be able to swing this against a host, but hacking mooks with a commlink becomes much easier.  Also, if you want to try this with 3 matrix actions at a time (like 2 marks and a trace) you can also do that, but it's a -10 (just like placing 3 marks) and you still spend your free action. 

If you consider this houserule to be too strong, you might make the marks obtained in this way context dependent - that they only work for the actions they were combined with, but I have not found the need to do this. 
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (01:36:01/02-16-16)
In a similar vein, I'm considering allowing reckless spellcasting to be used for a -9 to the spellcasting roll instead of a +3 to drain.

I know -9 is harsh, but it roughly translates into 3 successes, which is what you need on drain to compensate for the normal penalty. 

So with this you could recklessly spellcast to hit hard and take heavy drain or cast poorly and take light drain.  It's not meant to be a powerboost just an option for tactical flexibility. 


I'm still mulling it over since my concern would be for the spells that are more dependent on hits than force.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (08:08:49/02-16-16)
Drain doesn't deprive you of successes. It just hurts you after the fact. The Matrix equivalent would be Matrix damage (harsh) or Overwatch Score.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (09:37:30/02-16-16)
 Yeah, I realize that but I figured that gaining three in one category (drain) might roughly compensate for  losing three hits in another category (the success test).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (10:01:18/02-16-16)
Except they're completely unrelated. Drain is how mentally and physically taxing it is to cast a spell. Or in this case, to try and cast several spells in a very short period of time. Successes are how well you perform some task, which wouldn't necessarily suffer for trying to multi-task. Or at least, wouldn't suffer this badly. Most of the "distracted" penalties in the book are only -2. Hitting someone with a -9 is going to erase the majority of their dice pool. Like I said, the Matrix equivalent for suffering Drain would either be a couple points of Matrix damage for overtaxing your hardware, or scoring additional OS for making such a digital mess of things. If you're aggressively throwing code as fast as you can, it's going to be "loud" and obvious.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: falar on (10:18:13/02-16-16)
I like two actions in one roll generating more OS. There's a couple of good underpinnings for this:


I'd do it as a program that can load two actions and do them. It costs a free action to load your actions, then a complex to trigger the two actions. If both are Sleaze/Attack limit actions, you get double OS from it. If one is Attack/Sleaze and the other is Data Processing/Firewall, you get 1.5 OS (round up) from it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: FasterN8 on (21:41:54/02-16-16)
Double the OS for doubly illegal actions (2 attack/sleaze actions) makes sense, but it doesn't have a precedent when placing 2 marks with HotF or Brute Force, so I didn't go there, but it wouldn't break anything if you did.

    As far as the alternative to reckless spellcasting goes, I think the -9 is fitting for cutting the time to cast a spell in half.  You might also go with half the spellcasting pool thus mirroring a shooter engaging multiple targets, but the -9 makes it an elite thing and even then it's only for a quick and dirty casting when you only need 1 or 2 hits to be effective. 
    But anyway, it's just a houserule so take it or leave it as you like, I haven't playtested it like I have the matrix thing.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (22:26:18/02-16-16)
Whoa whoa whoa...

I just realized, there were 2 completely different topics going on at the same time. (I think I was busy the first read through and got confused lol)

I thought you were saying you would allow a Technomancer to perform 2 different Matrix actions at once, but they would have a -9 penalty. As I re-read, I see that you have them performing with a -4 as per placing 2 Marks at once. That sounds much better than a -9, though I would still double their OS on account of all the attention they're drawing.

As for Reckless Spellcasting (I thought you were comparing this Matrix blitz, not changing the topic) I still think hitting anyone with a -9 is pretty rough. That will take away a vast majority of anyone's dice pool, even if they are a seasoned veteran. Especially when earlier on that page they discuss Casting Multiple Spells, and say that all you need to do is split your dice pool between the two spells (same as multiple attacks). So from that it seems casting spells is no more or less distracting whether done slowly or quickly. The difference is how taxing it is on your body, hence the extra Drain.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ClaytonCross on (23:35:06/02-20-16)
Chrome and steal added the Skimmers mods for cyber legs. (12 capacity)
For the cost of .45 essence per leg 10,000 neyen each leg
Add a skimmer for -4 capacity and 2,000 nuyen each leg
(Grand total of 0.9 essence and 24,000 neyen)
This is a very important add for any cyber character intent on close combat designs.

Adepts however have:

"Improved physical attribute (agility)"
Cost:  1PP per level
This power allows you to increase a physical attribute (Body, Agility, Reaction, and Strength). This augments your attribute, so your Physical limit may also increase with the new Attribute rating. This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.

I am currently trying to convince my GM to allow a lesser form for speed only:

"Improved Speed"
Cost: 0.25 PP per level
    This power allows you to increase your walking distance by +2 and running distance by +4 per level taken. This movement speed increase cannot be combined with other technological, magical, or drug induced increases directly to movement speed. Increasing strength attribute or pools, running skill or pools, and agility attribute will increase this effects of this ability indirectly and are not prohibited by this ability.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Aaron on (17:55:41/05-23-16)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Prime Mover on (21:15:57/07-11-16)
Been messing around with some changes to 5th edition possession.  Trying to find a balance between 5th Ed and 4th ed.

*  Use spirits stats physical ( when higher then possessed ) and mental ( no math and keeps stats equal with regular spirits ).
*  Add half spirits force in automatic hits to the damage resistance test in place of Modifier to penalties.

This retains a feature of ITNW and keeps stats in line with other spirits.
Does this sound reasonable?

Edited: To clarify stat bonus.

Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gingivitis on (21:07:41/08-07-16)
I have been playing Shadowrun for 20-22 years now and have experienced every edition with each of their flaws and complexities.  Though I feel that 5th edition is the best so far, we all know the editing of the core rule book is appalling and a lot of the mechanics feel wonky.  This is my very extensive attempt to consolidate, normalize, and simplify the mechanics of the game.  In this attempt, I did not worry about the source book's fiddly-bits (like the price of things or the balance of character creation or advancement).  I looked only at the mechanics of PLAYING the game (the best part).

For my players, and my sanity, I have condensed the 475 page rule book into 28 pages of (what I feel are) concise, intuitive, and consistent mechanics for game play.  This does not replace the setting/flavor, the character creation, the spell and gear catalogs, etc. so you still need to buy the book, but you may not need to reference it during game play.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kdg25a6w1rdjm2p/SR5%20House%20Rules%20-%20Notated.pdf?dl=0
(Includes Initiative, Movement, Actions, Matrix Actions, Combat Resolution, Matrix Resolution, Vehicle Resolution, Combat Rules, NPCs)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ck8ig6ccnzwk7vi/SR5%20House%20Tables%20-%20Full.pdf?dl=0
(Charts for the above House Rules.  5 Tabs. [Edit] Now with a Printer Friendly tab!)

Also: I do not take credit for ALL of the concepts in this document, but I do take credit for painstakingly crafting and editing this document.

Let me know what you think...
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lorebane24 on (20:47:47/09-13-16)
So I was wondering I was the only one who felt the d6 system was a bit tedious?  A lot of my players have told me (after playing both pathfinder and shadowrun) that they prefer the style and setting of the latter, but would rather play Pathfinder because the system involves less excessive and it is generally easier for them to wrap their heads around.

After reflecting on this, I am starting a personal project to take the setting of Shadowrun but putting together a d10 system to run it one, taking what I've thought to be the best elements of several other systems I've worked with.  I was wondering if anyone would be interested in seeing the rules for such a system posted here?  So far what I'm looking at is eliminating the fistful of d6s, the concepts of hits, and instead have a system in which most checks just have a threshold you need to meet.  The rolls I'm looking at are similar to what you'd see in Savage Worlds or Arcanis (but the former I find too basic and generalized, and the former too tied to its own setting), with the player's attributes having a die rating between d4 and d12 instead of a numbered rating.  They would roll a d10, plus the relevant attribute die, with the ranks in the relevant skill being a flat bonus to that roll, and then magic, cyberware, or perhaps racial traits offering a smaller flat bonus to rolls on your attribute die.  Obviously there is a lot more I'll have to put together here, such as as how damage and armor works, and I'd have to rework the mechanics on most published items, but hey, I've been wanting a project.  Once this gets underway, would anyone want it posted, and, if so, where would I post it?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Sternenwind on (11:43:07/01-05-17)
Are there any threads or documents about SR5 System hacks focusing on the Matrix rules?
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Gingivitis on (01:45:28/01-06-17)
@Stern:  A good deal of my House Rules deal with simplifying Matrix, Matrix Actions, and IC.  (See Above)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kesendeja on (04:52:38/08-12-17)
Here's a new Positive Quality I was considering adding as a House Rule:

TechnoMagic Harmony (10 or 25 points)
Your familiarity and understanding with magic and technology has allowed you to mitigate some of the challenges with combining the two. You must be awakened to take this quality.

10 Points:
- Reduce the Object Resistance Dice Pool Modifier by one level. The level can be reduced no lower than "Natural Objects"
- Reduce the dice pool penalty for applying Health Spells to Low Essence characters by half.

25 Points: For the purpose of calculating maximum Magic, essence loss due to cyberware/bioware installation is divided in half. If this change is taken after chargen and results in a Maximum Magic score higher than current Magic, karma must be spent to raise Magic to its new maximum as normal.

Too much? I started drafting it at only the 10 point level but then thought the 25 point level might be a natural extension.

After playtesting these in my game we made the following change.

TechnoMagic Harmony (25 points)
   Your familiarity and understanding with magic and technology has allowed you to mitigate some of the challenges with combining the two. You must be awakened to take this quality.
   Reduce the Object Resistance Dice Pool Modifier by one level.
   The level can be reduced no lower than "Natural Objects"
   Reduce the dice pool penalty for applying Health Spells to Low Essence characters by half.

TechnoMagic Attunment (25 Points)
   You can ignore up to one point of essence loss for purposes of determining your magic.

Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kesendeja on (05:21:46/08-12-17)
Found long ago online, need some help with determining cost, as 10pts was way too cheep for what they do.

Shielding Metamagical Qualities:

Mass Shielding:
This Quality costs xx Karma. The Initiate can protect an area with her Counterspelling equal to her Magic Rating + Grade in meters or a number of individuals within LOS equal to twice her Magic Rating + her Grade. This is a popular Quality amongst military and mercenary magicians.

State of the Art Shielding:
This Quality costs xx Karma. It allows the Initiate to apply her Grade in dice as a defense against any type of magical effect from any source.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kesendeja on (05:29:37/08-12-17)
Something Ported over from 4th we really liked, buying metamagics outside of the standard one per grade.

Learning Extra Meta Magic
   If the gamemaster approves, Awakened characters can learn metamagic techniques through other methods, in addition to the one they acquire at each grade of initiation. It costs 20 Karma to learn a metamagic technique outside of initiation. The maximum number of metamagic techniques that may be learned in this way is equal to the character’s initiation grade.

Adepts and Power Points
We also allow mystic adepts, to buy power points each time they raise their magic, instead of spending a metamagics on it.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ShadowcatX on (09:40:35/08-12-17)
TechnoMagic Attunment (25 Points)
   You can ignore up to one point of essence loss for purposes of determining your magic.

I would probably change it to be exclusively for cyberware and cost 15 or 20 points.

My reasoning is that prototype transhuman does it for bioware already and is (basically) a 20 point quality. Also bioware > cyberware when you are wanting to save on essence. I would also add that it could not be stacked with prototype transhuman.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kesendeja on (03:43:56/08-13-17)
Went over it with my group.

Technomantic Shaper (10 points)
Your familiarity and understanding with magic and technology has allowed you to mitigate some of the challenges with combining the two. You must be to take this quality.
Reduce the Object Resistance Dice Pool Modifier by one level.
The level can be reduced no lower than "Natural Objects"

Technomatic Harmony (3 Karma)
Reduce the dice pool penalty for applying Health Spells to Low Essence characters by two, to a minimum of one.

Technomantic Attunment (15 Points)
You can ignore up to one point of essence loss from cyberware for purposes of determining your magic or resonance.


Shielding Metamagical Qualities:

Mass Shielding (7 Karma)
This Quality costs 10 Karma. The Initiate can protect an area with her Counterspelling equal to her Magic Rating + Grade in meters or a number of individuals within LOS equal to her Magic Rating + her Grade. This is a popular Quality amongst military and mercenary magicians.

State of the Art Shielding (20 Karma)
This quality allows the mage to add their shielding dice to any roll to resist critter powers or abilities that rely on magic.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (07:53:43/08-13-17)
Technomantic ...
First suggestion: change the name.  'Technomantic' is far too close to 'Technomancer', and the former definitely suggests the latter.  'Technomystic' would work better, IMO.

Technomantic Shaper (10 points)
Your familiarity and understanding with magic and technology has allowed you to mitigate some of the challenges with combining the two. You must be Awakened to take this quality.
Reduce the Object Resistance Dice Pool Modifier by one level.
The level can be reduced no lower than "Natural Objects"

Hm.  This ... *double checks Object Resistance*  This is not a small thing.  The minimum you are doing is hitting the object with a -3 dice pool penalty.  Because reducing 'Highly Processed' to 'Manufactured High-Tech' is lowering it by 6 or more, I wouldn't allow it to reduce it by one level.  Otherwise, it reduces the dice pool by -3.  If you want this to just do that, great - find out what Quality (if any) reduces the opposition's dice pool by 3, and ballpark this off of that Quality.  If there is none (and I don't think there is), have it reduce the object's pool by a flat -3, minimum 3 dice (i.e. that of natural objects), and jack the price to 15 karma.

Technomatic Harmony (3 Karma)
Reduce the dice pool penalty for applying Health Spells to Low Essence characters by two, to a minimum of one.
Again, look up other  two-die penalty reductions.  I'd be willing to bet they're worth more than 3 karma.

Technomantic Attunment (15 Points)
You can ignore up to one point of essence loss from cyberware for purposes of determining your magic or resonance.
Hm.  ... 15 points I can agree with, I think.

Shielding Metamagical Qualities
Honestly, all of these are good ideas, but none of these are quite right - and should be either items studied as techniques, special actions for someone with the right metamagic, or else new metamagics entirely.

Mass Shielding (7 Karma)
This Quality costs 10 Karma. The Initiate can protect an area with her Counterspelling equal to her Magic Rating + Grade in meters or a number of individuals within LOS equal to her Magic Rating + her Grade. This is a popular Quality amongst military and mercenary magicians.
You're doing multiple possible things here; as a consequence, I think you need to split it up.

Expanded Shielding (Technique, 5 Karma): As a simple action, the Initiate can add her Initiate Grade to the number of individuals she is protecting as well as to her Counterspelling dice.  This requires a simple action for every combat Turn in which the Initiate desires to use it.
Area Shielding (Technique, 5 Karma): As a complex action, the initiate can protect with Counterspelling an area with a radius equal to one-half her Magic Rating + Intiate Grade in meters (or her Magic Rating + Initiate Grade in diameter).  This area is centered upon the Initiate; this cannot be changed.

State of the Art Shielding (20 Karma)
This quality allows the mage to add their shielding dice to any roll to resist critter powers or abilities that rely on magic.

Hm.  This ... is a significant upgrade.  Learning how to intercept the wide variety of weird magic-based Powers of various critters is something that's going to require an overall advancement of your knowledge of magic, which is why it says to me that it would need to be a new metamagic that requires Shielding.

Paranormal Shielding (Metamagic, requires Shielding)
The mage has learned to recognize the magic in, and thus defend against,  the magical abilities of paranormal critters.  This is an imperfect interaction, however; the mage may only apply 2/3 of his Counterspelling dice against critter powers.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kesendeja on (08:37:44/08-13-17)
Could you tell me what book the rules for metamagic techniques are in. I can't seem to find them. But other than that I like your suggestions.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: ShadowcatX on (09:06:04/08-13-17)
Technomantic Shaper (10 points)
Your familiarity and understanding with magic and technology has allowed you to mitigate some of the challenges with combining the two. You must be Awakened to take this quality.
Reduce the Object Resistance Dice Pool Modifier by one level.
The level can be reduced no lower than "Natural Objects"

Hm.  This ... *double checks Object Resistance*  This is not a small thing.  The minimum you are doing is hitting the object with a -3 dice pool penalty.  Because reducing 'Highly Processed' to 'Manufactured High-Tech' is lowering it by 6 or more, I wouldn't allow it to reduce it by one level.  Otherwise, it reduces the dice pool by -3.  If you want this to just do that, great - find out what Quality (if any) reduces the opposition's dice pool by 3, and ballpark this off of that Quality.  If there is none (and I don't think there is), have it reduce the object's pool by a flat -3, minimum 3 dice (i.e. that of natural objects), and jack the price to 15 karma.

Strive for perfection, which is 12 points but carries with it a penalty. What if this did the same? You want to cast on machinery, fine, but it results in diminished ability to target metahumans. Take a penalty on your skill roll equal to the Target's essence when directly casting on a being with an essence score.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (00:04:26/08-15-17)
Could you tell me what book the rules for metamagic techniques are in. I can't seem to find them. But other than that I like your suggestions.

There are several metamagics (5, 8?) in the core book; many more are in Street Grimoire, the primary magic book for SR5.

Strive for perfection, which is 12 points but carries with it a penalty. What if this did the same? You want to cast on machinery, fine, but it results in diminished ability to target metahumans. Take a penalty on your skill roll equal to the Target's essence when directly casting on a being with an essence score.

*hunts*  Okay, Strive for Perfection, Assassin's Primer, p. 17.  Halves the Called Shot penalty; while the standard is -4, Run & Gun's 'Specific Target' called shot locations replace that and run from -6 to -10 but are still Called Shots, so a player would have a notable point in a debate getting 5 points taken off that penalty on a called shot to the eye.  Penalty is that they always have to make Called Shots, unless they're doing something that's basically a flat-out 'not aiming at all anyhow', like Covering Fire.

Hm.

I ... think I would simply make Technomystic Shaper a twist on Strive for Perfection: Halves the Object Resistance dice pool of the item being cast upon, 12 karma.  I like your penalty idea, ShadowcatX, but it doesn't go quite far enough.  I think I would impose a penalty of a living target's Essence or Magic, round up and whichever was higher, on the Spellcasting / Ritual Spellcasting dice pool of whatever mage possessed this.  (After all, too much 'ware and the person starts to get closer to machine than man, right?)  This isn't a bonus to the defense of his target, but a penalty to his own pool; this is also in addition to whatever penalties a target might have due to low Essence, e.g. for Health spells.  (Which means healing a Street Samurai just got a bit tougher for the guy.)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Finstersang on (07:59:56/11-03-17)
Paranormal Shielding (Metamagic, requires Shielding)
The mage has learned to recognize the magic in, and thus defend against,  the magical abilities of paranormal critters.  This is an imperfect interaction, however; the mage may only apply 2/3 of his Counterspelling dice against critter powers.

TBH, it seems counterintuitive to me (and a lot of mage players I had at my table) that RAW counterspelling can only be used against actual spells cast by magicians and not against other magical powers. The use of the skill should be expanded to magic critter powers by default, without the need for an additional quality. If any, it should be an easily achievable and unexpensive perk.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Finstersang on (08:47:11/11-03-17)
Adept Powers
Killing Hands: Often overlooked for their ability to circumvent immunity to normal weapons, but I think they should be made even deadlier to fit the title. Suggestion: Change "When inflicting damage on the target of an unarmed attack, you may choose whether to cause Stun or Physical damage." to "When dealing damage to a target with an Essence Score (e.g. Living beings and Spirits) while this power is active, the damage is always physical, regardless of armor or other perks that would turn it into stun damage."

Adding to that:

Improved Killing Hands (0.25 PP, max. Rank 3, Requires Killing hands): Your Killing Hands Power has become even more destrucive by attacking the very soul of your victum . When using the Power, raise the Damage Code of your Attacks against targets with an Essence Score (e.g. Living beings and Spirits) by 1 for each Rank in this Power. However, the bonus Damage is also limited by the target´s Essence score (rounded down) - when there´s just not enough soul left in that cybered up Street Sam, the power can only do so much  ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (20:13:28/11-04-17)
Paranormal Shielding (Metamagic, requires Shielding)
The mage has learned to recognize the magic in, and thus defend against,  the magical abilities of paranormal critters.  This is an imperfect interaction, however; the mage may only apply 2/3 of his Counterspelling dice against critter powers.
TBH, it seems counterintuitive to me (and a lot of mage players I had at my table) that RAW counterspelling can only be used against actual spells cast by magicians and not against other magical powers. The use of the skill should be expanded to magic critter powers by default, without the need for an additional quality. If any, it should be an easily achievable and unexpensive perk.
If this were in a world where magic was, in general, pretty thoroughly understood and in which it 'took a hard left turn', yeah, that would make sense.  Thing is, SR is not that world; paranormal magic is notable in that it only works somewhat like standard magic.  Sometimes 'somewhat' is 90%; sometimes it's 10%.  Putting it at a general 2/3 is a good balance - and, in all honesty, might be well more than should be actually permitted.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Nelphine on (14:59:11/02-07-18)
I quite like Sum to Ten. However, it's not particularly balanced between the differences in priorities between different categories. For instance, taking resources A insyead of B is a much bigger improvement than what you lose by taking attributes D instead of E. Similarly, taking one higher magic priority is almost always better than taking one higher metatype (assuming you're already choosing at least D for magic.)

So I'm intending to completely redo the priorities in order to make them more balanced.

However, as much as I want to do this and I'm planning on making other changes as well to match it, some things elude me.

Why are resources set to the values they are? As far as I can tell they're purely arbitrary, but I could be wrong. Are any of the resource values specifically needed? Is 6000 or 50000 or 140000 somehow important?

To explain a bit more what I'm getting at, it's things like: choosing Trolls priority A instead of Trolls priority B is the biggest jump in the metatype table, by a noticeable amount. However, this is somewhat necessary in order to be able to choose a magic using Troll who has at least a few points of edge. So while it seems like a huge jump, it's got deeper reasoning for why it exists, and changing it has far reaching consequences.

On the other hand, attributes D and C being only +2 stats over the previous one seems to have no required reasoning so I'm intending to change attributes to provide 3 extra stats for each priority.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Nelphine on (15:50:26/03-23-18)
Next area I'm focusing on: skills for different archetypes.

Specifically, skills of a mage vs a street Sam.
Generally the priority difference between a mage and street same is magic vs resources. However, for both, utility in ability to do things other than their focus is highly important. This usually ends up in the skills category, which both then need to take at some priority depending on utility desired.

However, a mage can simulate most skills via spells.

The most extreme version of this is actually NOT utility, it's pure combat.

A mage can attack in melee, attack at range, and do area attacks, all on one skill. In fact they can also do almost all of their utility on that one skill as well.

A Street Sam on the other hand required at least 3 skills (melee, ranged, throwing or heavy weapons) in order to do all the combat things a mage can - and could actually be using upwards of 9 skills depending on the weapons involved. And then even more skills for the utility.


So my assumption is that the skill balance between Mage and street Sam (or more accurately, mage and any other non awakened non matrix type) is far from balanced.

To start, I change the 5 specialties of spellcasting into their own individual skills (and then break up those into distinct specialties - for example, the combat spellcasting specialty becomes the combat spellcasting skill, with specialties in touch, direct, direct area, indirect, indirect area).

However, is this enough for balance? The mage now has extra skills, and already had quite a few utility skills, but the street same still needs as many as 9 combat skills to match the mages combat spellcasting skill.

That being said, the mage will probably want at least one of those combat skills themselves, and has 5 other mage specific skills as well. So it's pretty close. This change makes it so, assuming both mage and street sam have one basic combat skill in common, the mage needs up to 9 other skills to do everything, and the street Sam needs up to 8.

It's not the same split, but at least it's a pretty similar split.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Lorebane24 on (16:12:59/03-23-18)
I'm a huge fan of sum-to-ten as well.  I'm dealing with the biggest issue (doubling down on priority A) by adding a cavaet that everyone is limited to a single priority A.  There are a few concepts that are made more workable that might prefer 3x B instead of havine one A.

I was also thinking of doing a street level thing that, instead of using the wildly imbalanced street level rules, has the players use sum to ten but they arent allowed to have priority A in anything.

I also feel like the higher "special point" values allow for some weird monkyshines, and was just going to nix any entry above a race's minimum priority+1 (humans can have only E or D in race, elves can have only D or C, etc...)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JucaBala on (21:11:15/05-01-18)
Well, I don't know if this is the right place, but we're testing some house-rules, and, while we just tried it for a single session, it seemed good enough, so I'm putting it here for you guys to review and point the obvious inconsistences, errors or game-breaking consequences that I'm just don't saw.
We're long time shadowrun players, and, while we had our share of problems and grudges with the system (we're migrated to Gurps for some time, in a very free-form conversion), the game just don't feel like shadowrun without the proprietary system, so back we went, but one thing jumped to our perception as we began to try 5th edition - there is almost no reason to not grab the heaviest, largest gun and armor that you can lay your hands on, and, while it can be seen as "realistically", it makes everyone just use pistols and rifles, ignoring submachine-guns, machine pistols, machine guns and shotguns, so we though about giving a reason to use those "forgotten" guns.
The first thing that we've done was consolidate the Range Table, instead of having one range value for each category of guns, we have only one, which is used for all of them:
Range    Close (0-10m) Short (11-50) Medium (51-150) Long (151-350) Extreme (350+)
Penalty         0                   -1                        -3                   -6                    -10
As you can see, we also added another range band...
Now, each weapon has a Optimal Range, in which the threshold is 0, for each range band higher (or lower!) than the optimal that you are shooting, your threshold rises by 1, so, if you're firing with a heavy pistol (Optimal Range Close) fires at a target 90m distant (medium range), the attacks is made with a -3 penalty to the dice pool AND the threshold is 2, meaning that the first two successes are "wasted". In the same vein, shooting at someone at short (15m) range with an assault rifle (Optimal Range of Medium) is going to rise the threshold to 1.

We expect it to give submachine-guns a reason to be used (as a good all-around short range weapon). What do you think?

Thanks, and sorry if it is in the wrong topic.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Beta on (21:32:17/05-01-18)
Interesting!  I hope you'll post an update on how you are liking it after a couple more runs, and if you have tweaked it at all.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (18:32:39/07-26-18)
Noise House Rule

I’ve bitched about it a few times here, so here is my personal “fix.”  Unfortunately, there are a couple of systems that interact with Noise that could use some tweaking as well, so this will get a bit involved.


1)  If a Device can’t get Wireless bonuses for any reason, they can’t be a part of a PAN.
   This seems kind of common sense-y to me, but I do not think it is called out in RAW.  So here it is.

2)  Device Rating.
   I would love to go through every device to come up with a different / more appropriate DR…  However, the easiest way to deal with it is to deal with the two largest infringers on the overall DR system.
   Credsticks.  These are too high at a DR of 5, although they are always Wireless Off so it is okay to leave them as is.  Changing them won’t do anything appreciable.
   Commlinks.  These break the DR ceiling, and not in a good way.  The simplest thing to do is to divide the comms DR in half, rounding up when needed.  Now hold on, don’t start typing away just yet.  Hear me out.
      You might be tempted to give the higher cost comms in a particular DR tier some compensation, I recommend an additional point in Firewall, Data Processing, or even both in the top of the line for that DR tier.

3)  A devices DR counts as inherent Noise Reduction for that device.
   I told you to hear me out, and this is where you understand why comm DRs had to be reduced.  With this system, a Fairlight Caliban or Fuchi Cyber-X7 lose functionality in a Noise area of 9 instead of 8.

4)  Noise is calculated for the devices at each point (keeping negative numbers), then added together. You then add any modifier for distance, ignoring any result that is negative, to determine the exact effect of Noise.

5)  It is possible to buy items at a higher device rating.
        Does not apply to items that already have Rating scale.  Each addition DR point doubles the cost and Availability of the item.  This also applies to any add-on or mod that has any Wireless functionality of it's own.
        So, it is possible to have a gun with a DR higher than two now.  It will just be a special item that is difficult to find and costs quite a bit - especially if you have Smartgun on it.

OPTIONAL:  If you want a bit more realism, calculate Noise on a per-hop basis.
   If a character is connected to their comm through their Datajack, they can’t get the benefits of Antennae earware since they don’t come into play.  Fresnel Fabric as a jacket or cloak doesn’t do any good going from the RCC to the drone because the RCC is sitting on the bench next to the Rigger.  Etc..
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Cabral on (23:06:24/10-20-18)
Noise House Rule

I’ve bitched about it a few times here, so here is my personal “fix.”  Unfortunately, there are a couple of systems that interact with Noise that could use some tweaking as well, so this will get a bit involved.


1)  If a Device can’t get Wireless bonuses for any reason, they can’t be a part of a PAN.
   This seems kind of common sense-y to me, but I do not think it is called out in RAW.  So here it is.
Except that you can plug a device into a PAN. Wireless bonuses require wireless,  but PANs do not. You can have a completely wired PAN. Plugged in your smartgun instead of connecting wirelessly? It's part of your PAN.
(This is a small part of why wireless bonuses are terrible as written.)
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JudgeMonroe on (13:35:49/02-27-19)
Noise House Rule

1)  If a Device can’t get Wireless bonuses for any reason, they can’t be a part of a PAN.
   This seems kind of common sense-y to me, but I do not think it is called out in RAW.  So here it is.

I don't think that's "common sense-y" at all. Anything with a Matrix Condition Monitor should be allowed in a PAN, i.e., anything that could be the target of a Matrix action. For example, AR Glasses don't have a "wireless bonus" but absolutely should be in a PAN, as it can be bricked.

Quote
2)  Device Rating.
   I would love to go through every device to come up with a different / more appropriate DR…  However, the easiest way to deal with it is to deal with the two largest infringers on the overall DR system.
   Credsticks.  These are too high at a DR of 5, although they are always Wireless Off so it is okay to leave them as is.  Changing them won’t do anything appreciable.
   Commlinks.  These break the DR ceiling, and not in a good way.  The simplest thing to do is to divide the comms DR in half, rounding up when needed.  Now hold on, don’t start typing away just yet.  Hear me out.
      You might be tempted to give the higher cost comms in a particular DR tier some compensation, I recommend an additional point in Firewall, Data Processing, or even both in the top of the line for that DR tier.

I think I see where you're coming from. A starting runner can hit the streets with a Rating 6 commlink but only a Rating 4 Cyberdeck (based on availability). The deck has better attributes but should any commlink be harder to brick than a deck? A sufficient fix is probably to halve the commlink DR for most purposes but use the current DR as the commlink's attribute rating.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: PiXeL01 on (17:24:49/02-27-19)
Indirect Area Spells: the limit on hits dictated by the force of the start from the fourth dice to allow the existence of area spells of a lower force than 3.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: JucaBala on (18:23:36/03-09-19)
Interesting!  I hope you'll post an update on how you are liking it after a couple more runs, and if you have tweaked it at all.
It went actually well, with smgs and shotguns being more used than before. Unfortunatelly, the game ended two or three sessions after that post, so we couldn't really stress test it that well.
After a long hiatus in RPGs in general, it could be that I gonna be playing (as GM, but it IS playing!) a sci fi RPG, and we are intending to use SR5e as the "base system". As me and another friend have some online time to discuss rules and such, and the game probably won't start before July, we are thinking about some other house rules, some borrowed from other games, some to alleviate some warts.
1 - While still using the modified range table that were proposed, telescopic sight increases the optimal range of the weapon by one range band.
2 - We loved counting ammo when we're young, but nowadays it is more trouble than its worth, so we decided that each weapon has one or more "ammo boxes" per maganize. While you're shooting single shots, you don't track ammo, you're supposed to use your ammo efficiently. If you use it in semi-auto mode (double taps, semi auto-bursts, you name it), you roll +1d in the attack, but you spend 1 "ammo box", if you fire a short burst, you mark two boxes, and roll +2d to attack, same for long bursts (three boxes and +3d) and full auto bursts (4 boxes and +4d). In the paper it seems a little fiddly, but its easier to track than bullets on a one on one basis, and, lets be sincere, it is very rare for a Runner to actually empty a gun maganize in the current rules. This is almost the same rule as seem in the "Ghost Ops" RPG, and it works well there. An automatic pistol, like the Predator, would have about 3 ammo boxes, a good assault rifle, between 4 and 6, larger weapons, like HMG, 20-30, and revolvers as little as one ammo box. Also, on a glitch, you spend an ammo boxe, so you can go dry while firing single shot, is only harder.
3 - I guess this is the bigger change, which we began using in the ill fated shadowrun campaign, and, while it was received with suspicion by some players (mostly min-maxers), it was embraced by the group: the maximum amount of dice rolled is 10, period. If your pool is higher than 10, you remove dice from the pool in groups of three until you're left with 8, 9 or 10 dice. You roll these dice, and, IF successfull, you add 1/3 of the removed dice as bonus successes. To exemplify: Camper has 17 dice in Shooting plus Agility, before rolling, he removes 9 dice from the pool, and roll the 8 left. If he scores at least 1 success, even if it is less than the necessary threshold, he adds 3 success to the final roll, from the 9 dice removed. We tested it for only one session, but it seemed to speed things a little, and removed a little of the excessive edge that hyperspecialized characters had in their field of expertise.

Well, I think that that's it. Sorry for my confusing english.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on (23:16:39/03-09-19)
Indirect Area Spells: the limit on hits dictated by the force of the start from the fourth dice to allow the existence of area spells of a lower force than 3.

This feels really weird. Why would this one category alter limits to apply to net hits when nothing else does? It seems perfectly reasonable that a low force spell means you either need to spend reagents to increase the limit or get lucky (edge) in order to get spot-on target.

You can cast a Force 1 indirect area spell without upping the limit, you'll just always have to roll for deviation. Not like the spell fails, because you don't get the 3 hits.
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: PiXeL01 on (04:38:25/03-10-19)
Why would that make sense? Lower force means lower power and therefore more control.
But now that I think about it, the limit should actually be force +2 so a force 1 spell would just land though a force 2 allows you to stage the damage a little bit
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on (05:27:12/03-10-19)
That's not how any spells have ever worked since at least 4th edition. Lower force means less potential, you can't get as many hits on any spells that are cast at an extremely low force.

Force 2 Lightning Bolt? Good luck hitting anything with only 2 hits. Force 1 Powerbolt, most creatures can get one hit to resist that. Force 2 Mob Mood? It isn't all that difficult to resist 2 hits with Logic+Willpower.

The only time low force means measurably more control is the relationship between Force and Skill Rating determining how noticeable the pure act of spellcasting is. Low Force spells are primarily just less noticeable and less draining. Aside from how noticeable a spell is (which I chalk up to the simple idea that lower force spells are less noticeable) I don't remember any fluff describing less power means more control. Overall, the theme is actually closer to the opposite. More Force means more energy being channeled, which gives a greater ability to fine-tune and control that power. All with the drawback of with too much power comes too much backlash (drain).
Title: Re: [SR5] House Rules
Post by: neomerlin on (07:51:22/03-29-19)
Force 2 Lightning Bolt? Good luck hitting anything with only 2 hits. Force 1 Powerbolt, most creatures can get one hit to resist that. Force 2 Mob Mood? It isn't all that difficult to resist 2 hits with Logic+Willpower.

Sorry. I haven't actually read this whole conversation but this takes me back to my favourite first edition combat exploit where a mage could be devestating by spamming Force 2 manabolts and then throwing their whole magic dice pool i to the attack.

Basically, anything with Willpower 3 or less was prettt much guaranteed to die because a starting mage could roll 9 dice, only need a 3 or better for a hit on each die, while their target rolled 3 dice and needed a 5 or better. If the mage got at least 3 net hits, the target was dead. Then they rolled their Drain resistance and had to roll a 2 or better. If their dice pool (easily 6+) got 4 hits, no drain at all. It was that was easy. But not since 1st edition has a low Force spell actually been a more effective way of killing someone than a high force spell.

Ahem. Anyway. I actually came here to share a house rule I have been using since I was flipping through the old Virtual Realities book and came across the fast matrix runs rule for abstracting basic datagrabs in legwork. I think Matrix Search covers most of this but I wanted something for the protected but not crucial info Matrix Search can't find but isn't worth investing a whole matrix run on. This is basically what the rules in Virtual Realities was for. So I made a new Matrix Action of sorts.

Data Grab
MARKs required: None.
Test: Extended Test. Intuition + Hacking [Sleaze] (Varies, 1 hour)
The decker goes in search of particular information across the matrix. They begin by compiling a list of likely locations (in an age of digital information, global interconnectivity, and labyrinthine corporate networks, it’s unusual for data not to be shared) and targeting the least secure locations. The decker hacks into low rating Hosts and devices with a mind to keeping a low profile, and never staying in one place too long. Any time Overwatch gets close to convergence, or the decker is marked, they reboot and start over on the next likely location so as not to put anyone on high alert. This is an Extended Test with an interval of one hour. The Threshold for widely spread and commonly accessed or shared information is 6 hits. For information of limited availability or only used by a small group, the Threshold is 12. The most sensitive, secret, and protected data kept exclusively in one or two places or in archives cannot be found this way. Such information is the goal of whole shadowruns, not rapid snatch and grabs.