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To each their own I feel if you enforce that your killing a lot of creative potential and quite possibly fun for the players. Rules should be there to encourage people to be creative and come up with a group reality that's enjoyable for all concerned as opposed to the GM telling you how to play your character and you just being there to tell their story not your own.

There's plenty of other fluff/rules that cause more problems than they help and that's just on unclear/differing interpretations not someone saying "the book say's X therefore we can only do X and if you want to vary from that it's bad wrong fun." I can off the top of my head come up with half a dozen interesting variations of a corp SIN character that has it as a viable 25 point drawback without obeying any of that text but all those ideas are just tossed out the window because that's not how the drawback is to be played going by the posts here.

I could go on but that's not the point of this thread so this is the last I'll say on this subject here.
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Rules and such / Re: Astral Manifestation and Weapon Foci...
« Last post by Xenon on Today at 04:21:02 »
The manifesting magician does not have a physical form so he cannot be hurt on the physical plane

The manifesting magician still have an astral form and can be hurt in astral combat.

An active weapon foci have a presence in astral space and can harm an astral form..... However, the wielder must be present on the astral plane to use the foucs in astral combat.

The only way for the adept to attack the manifesting magician in this example is by using astral perception (as this would make him dual-natured and enable him to engage a wholly astral form using Astral Combat + Willpower rather than his physical attributes and skills).
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Rules and such / Re: Can mundanes see Sustained Spells?
« Last post by Xenon on Today at 04:15:06 »
That's a lot of sometimes ...
I updated the post to use the word "can" instead. Much better. Thanks for your comment :)
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Rules and such / Astral Manifestation and Weapon Foci...
« Last post by DarthRapier on Today at 04:12:25 »
This came up in our game tonight and we could not find an answer so we're asking around.

We have a Mage manifesting in the middle of the room warning the group of the impending failure. My Physical Adept with his active +2 Katana weapon Focus wants to attack him.

Yes or no?

The Foci being dual-natured should slice him up just like a manifested spirit but the rules get unclear in the separation between astral and physical when it comes to dual natured weapons. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
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Rules and such / Re: Can mundanes see Sustained Spells?
« Last post by ShadowcatX on Today at 03:50:44 »
That's a lot of sometimes and have reported for "clearly". Lol
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While willingly ending a quickened spell actually isn't covered by RAW I don't see why a table would have any troubles with it.

However, you would probably not be allowed to switch your quickened spell on and off at will. If you end your quickened spell then you have to recast it (and spend karma to quicken it again if you want to make it permanent).

(As for noticing magic, let us continue that discussion in the other thread)
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Rules and such / Re: Can mundanes see Sustained Spells?
« Last post by Xenon on Today at 03:30:53 »
1. It is clear that magic in this edition is almost always obvious and doesn't require a test to notice at all (that you only need to take a test if magic is subtle to begin with).

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
Magic is rarely subtle...But if the magic is subtle, then you have to pick up some dice.


2. It is clear that the victim of a subtle manipulation spell can notice it.

SR5 p. 292 Manipulation Spells
A victim of mental manipulation spell may roll to notice the magical effect according to the usual rules for Perceiving Magic (p. 280). Some of the less subtle mental spells (Control Actions) are pretty obvious, but more subtle spells (like Control Thoughts) can be pretty insidious.


3. It is clear that mundanes in this edition can notice when an astral form passes through their aura.

SR5 p. 314 Astral Detection
Physical beings may sense when an astral form passes through their aura.


4. It is clear that anything active on the astral plane in this edition have an astral form.

SR5 p. 312
Anything active on the astral plane, including spirits, active foci, dual-natured beings, etc., has a tangible astral form.

SR5 p. 319 Foci
While activated, a focus also has an astral form.

SR5 p. 280 Magical Ldoges
Then spend a number of days equal to the lodge’s Force dedicating the space, setting up the physical components, building its astral form, setting up barriers, and harmonizing it to your aura.

SR5 p. 301 Spirit Basics
Spirits are naturally astral forms, much like you’re naturally a physical form.


5. It is clear that spirits in this edition cause the air to shimmer (which mundanes can notice).

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
Spirits sometimes cause the air to shimmer, even from astral space


6. It is clear that you in this edition can notice magic that is being cast

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
Sometimes it’s obvious through a magician’s gestures or incantations (magicians seen by non-Awakened people are sometimes called “twitchy fingers”).... For example, if a magician with Spellcasting 6 casts a Force 4 manabolt, the threshold for spotting her do it is 2 (Skill Rating 6 – Force 4).


7. It is clear that you in this edition can notice when magic is in the area

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
People have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area.


8. It is clear that mundanes in this edition can specialize in noticing magic

SR5 p. 314 Astral Detection
Security personnel are trained to recognize this feeling as a sign of an astral intruder. This specialization of Perception is called Numinous Perception, which includes both the chilly tingle of astral forms and the “bad vibes” of noticing magic (p. 280).




In this edition it is not clear that a sustained spell would be impossible to notice.





edit to rephrase my comments from "sometimes" to "can"
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I'm not sure if you play pink mohawk or what but a lot of times in black trenchcoat a guard going "oh, magic is happening nearby" is totally the same as the guard going "invisibility was cast at force 6, armor is quickened at force 5, etc."

Maybe so, but what more can I say?  The rules clearly say that any form of magic being present (including the specific example of a spirit doing nothing but being present astrally) there's a chance to perceive that magic is going on.  Certainly people don't have to like that it means mundanes can detect that magic is present.. but it's inarguable that the rules say that's indeed the case.

Honestly, I don't know what the big hangup is.  If an astral patroller sees the shadowrunner with sustained spells, the gig is still up anyway.  It's just a matter of mundane security still being relevant even if you use magic, and I can understand how that paradigm might be clashing with notions of how Shadowrun is supposed to work.

Well I think you will find most everyone is going to disagree with you about what that rules actually says, and I suspect many will have a lot to say about it. But I really do wanna know how it turns out. So please do report back when it happens.

Best of luck.

Well it very well could be a horror show, as the regular Missions GM for local play has been operating under the impression that Awakened means the same thing as Dual Natured, and as such mages have to test to go thru Wards even if no spells/foci are active, Indirect Combat Area spells allow a dodge test, and well lots of things that just presumably got decided over the course of play to keep a session from derailing over digging into rulebooks but have since become accepted/confused as being the actual rules.  This is just one of the many things, so yeah.  It's absolutely going to be a case of culture shock with different GMs, and as such it'll be important to let slide what truly is allowable to slide and pick battles to be stubborn on "well y'all have been doing it wrong the whole time, the rules actually say *this*"... 

Honestly haven't decided if this is going to be one of the chosen battles or to just let it go.  For the purposes of the forum discussion it's more appropriate to have a "you're wrong, but here's why" kind of discussion in a purely abstract sense than at a gaming table where people are naturally prone to be invested in an outcome... and thus coloring what should otherwise be a pure logic and reason discussion :)
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Rules and such / Re: Can mundanes see Sustained Spells?
« Last post by Marcus on Today at 02:43:44 »
I'm not sure if you play pink mohawk or what but a lot of times in black trenchcoat a guard going "oh, magic is happening nearby" is totally the same as the guard going "invisibility was cast at force 6, armor is quickened at force 5, etc."

Maybe so, but what more can I say?  The rules clearly say that any form of magic being present (including the specific example of a spirit doing nothing but being present astrally) there's a chance to perceive that magic is going on.  Certainly people don't have to like that it means mundanes can detect that magic is present.. but it's inarguable that the rules say that's indeed the case.

Honestly, I don't know what the big hangup is.  If an astral patroller sees the shadowrunner with sustained spells, the gig is still up anyway.  It's just a matter of mundane security still being relevant even if you use magic, and I can understand how that paradigm might be clashing with notions of how Shadowrun is supposed to work.

Well I think you will find most everyone is going to disagree with you about what that rules actually says, and I suspect many will have a lot to say about it. But I really do wanna know how it turns out. So please do report back when it happens.

Best of luck.
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I'm not sure if you play pink mohawk or what but a lot of times in black trenchcoat a guard going "oh, magic is happening nearby" is totally the same as the guard going "invisibility was cast at force 6, armor is quickened at force 5, etc."

Maybe so, but what more can I say?  The rules clearly say that any form of magic being present (including the specific example of a spirit doing nothing but being present astrally) there's a chance to perceive that magic is going on.  Certainly people don't have to like that it means mundanes can detect that magic is present.. but it's inarguable that the rules say that's indeed the case.

Honestly, I don't know what the big hangup is.  If an astral patroller sees the shadowrunner with sustained spells, the gig is still up anyway.  It's just a matter of mundane security still being relevant even if you use magic, and I can understand how that paradigm might be clashing with notions of how Shadowrun is supposed to work.
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