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1
General Discussion / Re: 6WE Strength useless for melee users?
« Last post by Hephaestus on Today at 09:07:24 »
As they have always just been glorified brass knucks that’s the damage they should be doing. Back to 2e they have been doing sword
Level damage and that never made sense. And devalued many other attack ware like spurs or razors.

I never really understood why having a harder material grafted to your bones did more damage. I can see changing your damage code from S to P (and maybe a flat +1 STR), but no matter what material you are punching/kicking with you're still swinging with your normal body. If you wanted more damage, take STR 'wares.

Mass, actually.  The more your arm weighs, the more energy in the blow.  Force is equal to Mass * Acceleration.  The heaviness of the arm, in this case, is 1/2 the formula of how hard you hit something.

Since they are only replacing a portion of the bone with plastic/metal (say ~50%), I don't think you would be adding nearly enough mass to account for such a drastic change in damage. I mean, most industrial polymers are as dense or less dense than bone, so no additional mas per volume. And since Ti is only about 2.4x more dense than bone (4500 kg/m3 vs 1900 kg/m3) you would only be adding a kg or so to the mass of the arm of an average human. That is why I said maybe the +1 STR, but not a ramping damage code.

EDIT: And also, having more mass doesn't mean your muscles have been augmented to be able to swing that mass with the same effectiveness as you normal bones, so slightly less acceleration.
2
General Discussion / Re: 6WE Strength useless for melee users?
« Last post by steelybran on Today at 08:46:50 »
As they have always just been glorified brass knucks that’s the damage they should be doing. Back to 2e they have been doing sword
Level damage and that never made sense. And devalued many other attack ware like spurs or razors.

I never really understood why having a harder material grafted to your bones did more damage. I can see changing your damage code from S to P (and maybe a flat +1 STR), but no matter what material you are punching/kicking with you're still swinging with your normal body. If you wanted more damage, take STR 'wares.

Mass, actually.  The more your arm weighs, the more energy in the blow.  Force is equal to Mass * Acceleration.  The heaviness of the arm, in this case, is 1/2 the formula of how hard you hit something.
3
Character creation and critique / one more
« Last post by CigarSmoker on Today at 08:46:09 »
And here a Human variant without burning Edge, yeah i like building chars ;):

A Mystic Adept (3 PP; 2 Spells)

Spells
Increased Attribute, Increased Reflexes

Adept Powers
Improved Ability Conjuring III

B Attributes (16)
Body 5 Agility 1 Reaction 5  Strength 1 Willpower 5 Logic 1 Intuition 1 Charisma 5 Magic 6 Edge 7

C Race Human (9) Edge +6 Magic +2; 1 wasted 😉

D Ressources 50.000Y
+50.000Y Indebt (-10 Karma) and -4 Karma for 4*2000Y
Power Focus IV -24 Karma 72.000Y
Spirit Focus 7 -14 Karma 28.000Y

E Skills 10
Conjuring (Summoning) 7
Sorcery (Spellcasting) 2

Qualities
Focused Concentration II (-24 karma)
Mentor Spirit: Thunderbird (-10 Karma)
Aptitude Conjuring (-12 Karma)

Negative Qualities
Impaired Attribute Strength V (+40 Karma)
Impaired Attribute Agility III (+24 Karma)

This guy rolls 7+2 (Specialisation)+3 (Improved Ability) + 6  (Magic) + 4 (Power Focus) +7 (Spirit Focus) +7 (Edge)= 36 Dice with exploding 6s vs 36 to summon a Force 18 spirit
Drain he rolls ~21 with exploding 6s vs 36
Considering his Bonus Edge for Air Spirits he has 1 Bonus Edge, so enough for twice exploding Edge.

Edit: i was over +20 Karma with Qualities so took Mentor Spirit instead of Spirit Affinity, with some PingPong this would work but i think the direction is clear ^^

Edit 2: Qi Focus IV would give one more dice ^^


4
Rules and such / Re: [House Rule] Summoning Procedures (5 karma each)
« Last post by LukeZ on Today at 08:45:02 »
Think so as well, the standard banishment procedure is already pretty taxing.

However, "Banishment Formulars" might still be a worthwhile idea - but unlike the "Summoning Formulars", they don´t gate Spirit types, but unlock other, less taxing or more strategically interesting kinds of "Banishing":

Some Examples:
  • "Pushing" spirits back into Astral space and prevent them from Materializing
  • The same in reverse: "Pulling" spirits into the physical world and forcing them to Materialize
  • Prevent Spirits from Entering or Leaving a certain area (like a spontanous astral ward)
  • Slowing down Astral Movement
  • Forcing Possession spirits (I guess they will return in the upcoming sourcebooks) out of a host and/or prevent the from in inhabiting the host in the first place (i.e. Exorcism)
  • Forcing Spirits into a certain host (the "genie in the lamp")
  • Spirit-specific Formulars to better banish certain spirit types
  • "Capturing" Spirits from other Summoners for yourself.
  • Disrupting Immunity to normal weapons

This is more homebrew than houserule territory. Might be worth looking into for the Magic supplements. Banishment, like Enchanting, could use some more depth besides a power boost.

All very good ideas!

Maybe "Spirit-specific Formulars to better banish certain spirit types" could simply reduce Drain to Rolled Hits instead of 2 x Rolled Hits
5
General Discussion / Re: 6WE Strength useless for melee users?
« Last post by Hephaestus on Today at 08:42:17 »
As they have always just been glorified brass knucks that’s the damage they should be doing. Back to 2e they have been doing sword
Level damage and that never made sense. And devalued many other attack ware like spurs or razors.

I never really understood why having a harder material grafted to your bones did more damage. I can see changing your damage code from S to P (and maybe a flat +1 STR), but no matter what material you are punching/kicking with you're still swinging with your normal body. If you wanted more damage, take STR 'wares.
6
General Discussion / Re: Smartlink through the ages
« Last post by Xenon on Today at 08:29:23 »
Not sure if you meant to come off as condescending as you did, but thanks for the clarification!
Sorry that was not my intention.

It seem as if the smartgun systems in SR5 and SR6 are quite similar.



So yes, there is no doubt that 6e's Smartlink is pretty much the worst one was have seen to date
You are quite clear in your posts that you don't like SR5 (and that is fine, everyone can not like everything), but could you please elaborate what you specifically think is bad about the smartgun system (game mechanic wise) in 6th edition compared to for example how smartgun systems worked in 5th edition - because as i read it they are (game mechanic wise) quite similar.
7
Think so as well, the standard banishment procedure is already pretty taxing.

However, "Banishment Formulars" might still be a worthwhile idea - but unlike the "Summoning Formulars", they don´t gate Spirit types, but unlock other, less taxing or more strategically interesting kinds of "Banishing":

Some Examples:
  • "Pushing" spirits back into Astral space and prevent them from Materializing
  • The same in reverse: "Pulling" spirits into the physical world and forcing them to Materialize
  • Prevent Spirits from Entering or Leaving a certain area (like a spontanous astral ward)
  • Slowing down Astral Movement
  • Forcing Possession spirits (I guess they will return in the upcoming sourcebooks) out of a host and/or prevent the from in inhabiting the host in the first place (i.e. Exorcism)
  • Forcing Spirits into a certain host (the "genie in the lamp")
  • Spirit-specific Formulars to better banish certain spirit types
  • "Capturing" Spirits from other Summoners for yourself.
  • Disrupting Immunity to normal weapons

This is more homebrew than houserule territory. Might be worth looking into for the Magic supplements. Banishment, like Enchanting, could use some more depth besides a power boost.
8
General Discussion / Re: Shadowrun 6e Twilight Sins Ending
« Last post by PatrolDeer on Today at 08:00:09 »
because they didn't have the rules in front of them to reference, it seemed to me

For example one of the things that they touched upon in that video was the fact that their combat character (Havoc?) could have assaulted a facility wearing just a bikini and mechanically it works just as well as wearing armor, and they weren't wrong. When I first read the official posts talking about mechanics, and some posters calling out problems, I thought it was just the standard edition change jitters. I was wrong.

In my country we have a saying which goes: "You can't teach an old horse new tricks"

As new GM which never had any experiences with previous editions, I really like this system. As a person who also works in an industry which is heavily depending on new product development. I absolutely understand what is happening and I am calm with my CRB, even if it is missing things or it's unclear. 20 fraggin bucks.

I forced myself to watch that video and I observed a couple of things. That GM is a prime toxic shaman, not only he is toxic, but he spills his toxicity to his players, which otherwise seemed moderate with their critique. Hate breeds hate, especially on the Matrix webz.
I am so glad that I found videos and podcasts from Shadowcasters network.

Concerning their pile of pure hate towards how the armour and close combat work. They totally didn't understand the edge system and it's capabilities. More, I personally feel that none of those players (and a lot of toxic players around the Matrix webz) ever tried to understand how REAL combat works.
Because than they would realise that just because a character has armour, doesn't mean that she won't get hit. I would advice my characters not to go in bikini to fight Red Samurai. They will gain a TON of edge over every single round and just wait when they start to re-roll characters successes on defence tests, denying characters edge, making character glitch...
If a character doesn't have armour and won't take cover, death is almost inevitable and that is very, very real.
Close combat is mainly based on fluidity of movement (agility) in order to hit. An angry woman can stab you as deadly as a troll. If you don't believe me, grab a kitchen knife and stab a stuffed pillow. That's the force you need to generate to penetrate abdomen, or neck...
Yes there should be a modifier for higher strengths in weapon close combat ( and there is, it's vaguely mentioned in the cyberlimb section)

Overall, that video is pure "resistance to change", they mentioned themselves that they played circa 300 session of 4th and 5th and they promised themselves that they won't ever played Shadowrun again. So do they hate on 6th or they hate on Shadowrun in general?

Resistance to change seems quite common among players coming from previous editions and I understand, but everything is a trade-off. If CGL decided that 5e is too complicated to attract new players ( Me and my group is the case) and they cut off a lot of mechanics which were accumulating through out years of new editions, they faced a decision - or we will get new players and piss off old players, or we will keep old players happy and won't attract new players.

Thanks to amazing support from the errata and demo team around this forum as well as active members, I was able to grasp the underlying concepts and I can't wait to play 6E with my group.

Finally, I would like to give you, Singularity,  big big props on how well you orchestrated your players and your group learning process to get into the new system. I, for certain took inspiration from you and will use this for my group as well. I would like to tell you that I feel that you shouldn't give up on the system. Take some rest, wait for new erratas to go on-line a re-visit it.
9
The bone augmentations enhance the problem, but they are not the culprit. It makes sense that you deal more damage with bone lacing than without, and it´s at least not totally unbelievable if that´s sometimes enough to make some smaller melee weapons obsolete.

The core problem is that unarmed scales with Strength twofold (Base Damage and Attack rating) while Melee weapons don´t scale at all. It´s a terrible choice that should note have made it in the finished (hard to call it that...) published rulebook.

As they have always just been glorified brass knucks that’s the damage they should be doing. Back to 2e they have been doing sword
Level damage and that never made sense. And devalued many other attack ware like spurs or razors.

But it’s just part of the problem and makes it more apparent earlier. Though if a street sam using a katana is a iconic image you want it is pretty necessary to change. I don’t think street sams will ever switch to a katana due to short range. They’d just shoot at point blank again. Potentially giving your opponent edge is a small penalty. Using a major to switch weapons is a bigger penalty.
10
Mr. Eddie the Edge Burner is a fat Troll looking like Jabba the Hut (he needs all his Strenght to move his own Bodymass, he could have 1 Str without breaking any Rules, but this would be silly right?)

A Magic Mystic Adept 4 (3 Power Points, 2 Spells)
Spells:
Increase Attribute
Increase Reflexes
Adept Power:
Increased Attribute Body (3)

B Attributes (16)
Body 10 (13) Agility 1 Reaction1  Strength 3 Willpower 5 Logic 5 Intuition 1 Charisma 1 Edge 2

C Skills (20)
Conjuring (Summoning) 5
Sorcery (Spellcasting) 6
Influence 1
Perception 5 (Aural)

D Race Troll (4; +2 Magic +1 Body +1 Edge)
E Ressources 8000Y

Karma 69 Spent:
Focused Concentration II 24 karma
Exceptional Attribute: Body 12 Karma
Built Tough 2 -> 4 8 Karma
Str 1- 3 (25 Karma)

Negative Qualities
Addiction (FastFood) VI +12 Karma
Weak Immune System +8  Karma

As long as a run is going smoothly Eddie is just a normal Summoner. Using Force 5 Spirits. His Drain Attribute as Hermetic Mage is Willpower + Logic with a dicepool 16-18 depending on his rolls on „Increase Attribute“ for the day.

But as soon as the shit hits the fan big time he releases his remaining spirits. Then he uses one point of Edge to burn and destroy any „undefeatable“ opposition by doing the following:

He uses the Burn Edge Option „Smackdown“ to have automatic success in the Summoning of a Force 18 Spirit (for example Beast Spirit) with 4 Services.
He then has to resist a dicepool of 36 drain with his 16-18 drain resistance dice, most likely physical drain. But since he has a condition monitor of 19 [8+(13/2) + 4 (Built tough IV) he is able to survive that while still being conscious most of the time (if he falls unsconcious the spirit leaves).

Now you can  argue that „Smackdown“ does not work like this on oppossed tests, but a clarification would be nice in a future errata regarding opposed tests.

Btw I dont recommend actually playing a char like Eddie, it is just some kind of fun for me creating „crazy“ chars. And while doing it finding some rules that are not clear enough/at all.



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