Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: AceFace on (22:37:35/08-18-12)

Title: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (22:37:35/08-18-12)
So, assuming that Land of Promise (mentioned in the Jackpoint entry at the start of Clutch of Dragons) follows a fairly similar format to other location sourcebooks, it should have big write-ups for two locations and small write-ups for a number of others. I'm assuming that the two Tirs would get big write ups (though if you have other ideas, I'd love to hear them), but what other places do you think might get the lesser coverage?

I'd assume it would be other "awakened" nations/cities and would personally love to see some more info about the Black Forest Troll Kingdom (I constantly see this place mentioned, and would love to know more) and Asamando (the fiction in 6WA really piqued my interest). What do you guys think? Do you think anything will get coverage beyond the Tirs at all? The pointless, but fun, speculation starts now!
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: DarkLloyd on (22:52:35/08-18-12)
Nope. I pretty sure this will just be Tir Tiarngere (or how ever you spell it). "Land of Promise" is Tir Tiarngere translated to English....
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (00:48:47/08-19-12)
A boy can dream, can't he?  ;)

If the whole book does turn out to be about just Tir Tairngire, I hope they go the route of Seattle 2072 and have the whole thing as newb friendly as possible. I've been playing SR on and off for years, but have only recently started reading up on history and metaplot - that kind of stuff just didn't really come up in our games - so I like it when the source books cover the basics and original stuff as well as the more recent history..

If this book is just covering Tir Tairngire, I think there's room for a location book (in the style of Feral Cities and the like) that does cover awakened/meta cities in more detail at some point - what do people think? What cities/locations would you like to see covered? What titles would you suggest for such a book?
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Longshot23 on (08:21:48/08-19-12)
I hope it will include updated & further details on relations between TT and other elven . . . powers. Like Tir na nOg, the Manitou, Pomorya, the elves of Gwynedd, the Zulu elves (Heavenherds?) . . . the Sinsearach as well, I suppose.  Any others?

Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Starglyte on (10:25:23/08-19-12)
Here is my speculation. Assuming its a location book, if it sells well enough, we can get other location books, like for example one detailing the CAS!  :D
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AJCarrington on (10:29:40/08-19-12)
Yet another title to look forward to ;)  Quite like Starglyte's idea re success leading to more location books... ;D
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (11:00:35/08-19-12)
I'd really like to see a book dedicated to the NAN. Given that the Salish Shidhe are all around Seattle, I know remarkably little about them.

CAS could be fun too, especially if they concentrated on some of the little cultural differences from UCAS - what are the popular TV shows in CAS etc. Would have to be careful not to fall too far into stereotyping the South though, I guess.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (21:49:13/08-19-12)
What I want to know is, now that Horizon's dirty tricks have been made public, Hestaby's leaving the Council, Zincan's looking like a sock puppet, and the people have had a good ten years to forget how things were, whether there are any counter-revolutionary forces looking to reestablish the old regime.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (00:56:15/08-20-12)
I await the Land of Promise with baited breath. I fell in love with the old Tir Tangaire sourcebook and, assuming that this is the focus (Does it target the other Elf lands? I dunno, but I also don't care about the other two, so, hah!), I'll buy it in a heartbeat.

English and History double major, but political science and sociology are two of my minors and became true loves for me... the idea of how the Tir *works* makes my heart go pitter-patter. Oh, don't get me wrong, it'd be a HORRIBLE place to live, but damnation, I want to dig into the culture there and eat it up with a spoon.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (06:19:17/08-20-12)
I know what you mean, Wak. Iceblade was originally just an elf combat mage from Seattle. Then I got hold of the Tir Tairngir book and loved it so much that I rewrote the entire character from the ground up, and I just don't do things like that, normally.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (11:12:13/08-20-12)
There's a picture in the original TT book that gets me every time. A female police officer whose back is to the camera, hands lighting up with magic as she faces off with a bad guy.

I've made, like, five characters off of that one piece of art alone.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (11:36:44/08-20-12)
So, to clarify, the original source book is worth buying then?  ;)

I'm finding way too many things to spend my hard earned cred on at the moment...
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (14:25:00/08-20-12)
Yes, the original source book, while dated in the twenty years-ish that've passed since the in-game year it featured, is awesomely fun.

There's a few of the OLD sourcebooks that are worth grabbing, no matter what edition you're in. That's one, Lone Star's another, and Aztlan's probably the third. Each one's *rich* in data.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Critias on (14:58:59/08-20-12)
I'm going to answer what I can without dancing around an NDA, here, so bear with me.  If I'm being too vague, I apologize.  I'm trying to clarify as much as I can (to keep expectations in-line with what the product offers), but we also just received a stern lecture about NDAs, and I really don't want to get fired. 

1)  Yes, "Tir Tairngire" translates to "Land of Promise." 

2)  It is in some ways a sequel to the old Tir Tairngire book and the Tir's chapter in Sixth World Almanac, but in other ways it is meant to fill in the gaps between those two books.  We've got several years of Tir history that were never touched on in any published material, and this is an attempt to fill in those plot holes, explain what's been going on, and basically update the setting and get it playable again.  Having either/both of those would be helpful to really tackling the place.

3)  Linked with the idea of playing there, this product and the Elven Blood adventures go together pretty well, and feed off each other a lot.  While the print run of Elven Blood was a GenCon exclusive, it should be available on pdf eventually.  So if you like Land of Promise and want adventures to go with it, Elven Blood gives you several of them.

4)  I don't want to deflate anyone's hopes or shatter dreams, but please keep in mind Land of Promise is just a small, largely unsolicited (IE, it was the writer's idea to make the pitch, it wasn't the developer's idea to go looking for a book to be written), e-book only release.  So there's limits on what can be crammed into this sort of book, the budget wasn't the budget available to a larger product, etc, etc.  It's a pretty compact piece of work that serves primarily to update and supplement existing material, and just drag the Tir kicking and screaming into the 2070s and make it someplace fun to play in.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (15:35:16/08-20-12)
Thanks for the clarification Critias. My expectations are managed  :)

I'm a little surprised that this is "only" getting an ebook to be honest (not wanting to bad mouth the ebooks, but you know what I mean) - I'd have thought that there'd be plenty of call for a full-size treatment of the two Tirs, especially Tir Tairngire, as the Elven nations are one of the things that make the Sixth World unique and interesting. Maybe if we all buy copies of Land of Promise...  ;)
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Crimsondude on (16:18:33/08-20-12)
There's a picture in the original TT book that gets me every time. A female police officer whose back is to the camera, hands lighting up with magic as she faces off with a bad guy.

I've made, like, five characters off of that one piece of art alone.

I have no doubt that Wak also remembers it because

/Pacino in Heat Mode On

She's got a GREAT ASS!

/Pacino in Heat Mode Off
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (17:29:25/08-20-12)
That didn't hurt, I'll confess. :)
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Starglyte on (18:18:41/08-20-12)
Bummer, E-Book only. :*(

Ah well, I will pick it up anyways, just because its something I been waiting for since the supposed 4th location book Awakened Haunts ( and I am a big fan of the original Tir book). That and maybe a chance for more books like it...
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: carmachu on (19:12:33/08-20-12)

4)  I don't want to deflate anyone's hopes or shatter dreams, but please keep in mind Land of Promise is just a small, largely unsolicited (IE, it was the writer's idea to make the pitch, it wasn't the developer's idea to go looking for a book to be written), e-book only release.

Oh. Well in that case its a no go for me. Dont do any PDF's that arent also print.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Critias on (19:15:24/08-20-12)

4)  I don't want to deflate anyone's hopes or shatter dreams, but please keep in mind Land of Promise is just a small, largely unsolicited (IE, it was the writer's idea to make the pitch, it wasn't the developer's idea to go looking for a book to be written), e-book only release.

Oh. Well in that case its a no go for me. Dont do any PDF's that arent also print.
While you're certainly free to hold that opinion, it means you're missing out on an awful lot of Shadowrun.  I hope that the (generally) low price-point on some of our pdf offerings will, someday, encourage you to rethink that policy. 
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: carmachu on (19:22:17/08-20-12)

While you're certainly free to hold that opinion, it means you're missing out on an awful lot of Shadowrun.  I hope that the (generally) low price-point on some of our pdf offerings will, someday, encourage you to rethink that policy.

*shrug* Then I miss it. I generally dont see it as missing anything. It could be free and I still dont want it. I *LIKE* print books. I dont generally like nor buy PDF's ever. I like holding books. Doesnt matter the game or setting- if paizo's offerings were only PDF and not print I wouldnt download them either, even free. I pass on their piazo adventures that are for their organized society....their ebook/PDF only.

If a friend of mine didnt snag eleven blood at GenCon in print form I'd have passed on ebook/PDF versions of that as well.

Nothing personal, I hope it does well. But ebook only isnt for me. Its a dealbreaker.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Black on (19:25:12/08-20-12)
Why are people anti-pdf only?  That makes no sense to me.  \

PDFs are cheap, easy to share within your group of friends, you can print them yourself for (generally) less then $20 if you really want to, and Shadowrun has a ton of great books in PDF (Safehouses, Missions, Parabiology, Used Cars, Gun Heaven books etc. (ok some of them did make it to the Runners Black Book, but they made great PDFs.  I did get the 1st Gun Heaven professionall printed for something like $10 at the local Officeworks and the sam players loved it,).

So why not support PDF books?
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: carmachu on (19:30:52/08-20-12)
Why are people anti-pdf only?  That makes no sense to me.  \

PDFs are cheap, easy to share within your group of friends, you can print them yourself for (generally) less then $20 if you really want to, and Shadowrun has a ton of great books in PDF (Safehouses, Missions, Parabiology, Used Cars, Gun Heaven books etc. (ok some of them did make it to the Runners Black Book, but they made great PDFs.  I did get the 1st Gun Heaven professionall printed for something like $10 at the local Officeworks and the sam players loved it,).

So why not support PDF books?

I *LIKE* books. I like holding them. I like the fact I dont need an electronic devise to use. I dont have to print them out. And I can share it easily if I want. Its something I own. Too many times I've seen certain companies revoke a right or have corrupted data. But ultimatelty it comes down to I like printed books, not PDF's, Price isnt an issue.....I'll drop and have on printed books- from shadowrun's $45 print hardcovers to $119 Ptolus book ages ago to paizo's $15-$40.

I've got money set aside of shadowrun 2050 print version. But even though the PDF is available now, I'm not interested in the buddle.

Even if folks gave away the PDF's for free I still wouldnt take it. Call me old fashion. But I put my money where my mouth is.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: WSN0W on (19:41:54/08-20-12)
I totally get the desire to have the book in hands. I just can't do it any more logistically as I have 15 bookshelves already full in my house and that's after my latest moving purge. Finding a good eReader with the right case also helped sell me on .pdfs as you can get a solid tactile feel of holding and reading the book and not needing to bust out the laptop or whatever.

There are tons of awesome pdf only for Shadowrun and I'm super pumped about this one. I have a Tir Ghost game I have in the cold storage locker the players and myself have been considering thawing out to continue.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Critias on (19:45:21/08-20-12)
For what it's worth, I don't mean for my above bullet-point to give people such low expectations they think they're getting a pdf scan of some notes scribbled on the back of a napkin, or something.   ;D  There's plenty of awesome stuff in the book!  I'd tell you what's in there if I was allowed to, just so y'all could see what cool stuff you're gonna get, but I'm not allowed to do that sort of thing.  I just want to make sure folks don't expect a couple hundred pages of in-depth socio-economics and history and whatnot, like Mr. Findley's original book.  It's an update, much more than a rewrite, of that seminal classic.

And, also for what it's worth, Carmachu I don't hold it against you for having a no-pdf mentality.  I'm a historian and writer, I know very well the pleasure that can come from holding a book in your hands and slowly paging through it.  I've got no hard feelings, and I'm not out to argue with you or anything, I just feel bad because there's a whole line of products you're missing out on. 

WSNOW, you guys should like this one plenty once it hits e-shelves. 
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: carmachu on (19:57:32/08-20-12)

And, also for what it's worth, Carmachu I don't hold it against you for having a no-pdf mentality.  I'm a historian and writer, I know very well the pleasure that can come from holding a book in your hands and slowly paging through it.  I've got no hard feelings, and I'm not out to argue with you or anything, I just feel bad because there's a whole line of products you're missing out on. 
.

For what its worth, I hope its very successful. I'm not demanding folks do it the way I want. Simply pointing out, its a deal breaker for me. Figured it had to be said so to speak. I might be missing some products but for my own tastes, its nothing I'll miss. I have a whole shelf of 20 years worth of Shadowrun stuff. A handful of PDF's in comparison isnt much. Good luck!
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: WSN0W on (20:08:08/08-20-12)

WSNOW, you guys should like this one plenty once it hits e-shelves. 

I fully expect to. I have a PbP game with a player that is also bouncing off the walls for it so it's really a top pick item.

So to quote some Spaceballs. "When will then be now?"
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Critias on (20:24:38/08-20-12)
So to quote some Spaceballs. "When will then be now?"
While I don't have a hard date, it shouldn't be very long.  As far as I know, all that's really left is layout and final-final drafts on some artwork.  GenCon takes up a ton of our attention and basically locks up production for a little bit, but once we're all back in the swing of things and recovery from the epic Indianapolis pilgrimage, it shouldn't take long, I think.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Starglyte on (22:43:10/08-20-12)
I am another one who prefers books to e-books (odd for a history major like myself who loves that its so much easier to research with online resources). I just happen to occasionally let myself pick up a e-book if and only if it won't see print.  That is of course assuming I really want the content, like in this case.  Usually, e-book only won't get my cash.  One of the reasons I dropped White Wolf before they got their POD actually working.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (23:51:40/08-20-12)
Another historian here (We're a clique!) and, yeah, I'm not a big fan of PDFs. Mind you, I've worked on one already (Street Legends: Home Edition ... it's free! You know you want it!), but when possible, I'll pick a book every time.

That said, there *are* print on demand services (Tho I don't know how they work exactly with Shadowrun PDFs.Hrm. I should find that out.) and, of course, you can always fire up the ol' home printer and get to tabulating.

CanRay, for instance, rather famously printed out Shadowrun 2050 and made himself an oldschool 3-ring binder book out of it. That was tres keen!

So, yeah, I get why the PDF-only stuff isn't your bag, but it never hurts to give 'em a try.

(But you can have my bookshelf when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.)
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (01:24:01/08-21-12)
The reason I prefer PDFs is because having a few laptops/tablets at a table is infinitely easier on space than having two suitcases full of books, which can happen easily for something like D&D 3.5.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (02:48:35/08-21-12)
I don't mind pdfs actually, but that's only since I got an iPad (as WSNOW said, it gives them a tactile element that's not there on a laptop screen). I'd still always prefer a full-fat book, because I like looking at my lovely shelf o' goodies. That being said, I'd have sworn blind three years ago that I'd only buy music on CD for roughly the same reasons, and now I'll often buy electronically over "hard" format. Maybe the pdfs will win out in the end. What sort of length do the ebook only products tend to be, out of interest? I've bought some Missions, but the only other SR ebooks I own are also available in DTF.

On the subject of Land of Promise, I do hope that the book is accessible to those without the original Tir Tairngire source book - it makes me sad when I spend money on a sourcebook and it turns out that it requires specific previous purchases to be of much use. I don't mind there being call-backs and references aimed at the people who own the old books (those hard-core guys that have been buying more-or-less everything for years are a big market I assume), but I remember buying Shadows of Europe back in 3rd, because I wanted info on the UK and surrounding countries, and all I got was a load of garbled bits and bobs that made little sense to me because I didn't own the original London sourcebook. I ended up writing my own UK history, heavily inspired by 1984 and V for Vendetta, which was fun, but wasn't what I'd set out to do.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (03:22:50/08-21-12)
From what I've seen, the PDF only products tend to be 40 pages or less, and cost between $3-$18.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Bull on (18:57:11/08-21-12)
From what I've seen, the PDF only products tend to be 40 pages or less, and cost between $3-$18.

Actually, I believe all of our 40 page or less PDFs are under $10 (usually $4 to $8), and generally price is determined by how much art is in them.  Something like Missions, 99 Bottles, or Another Rainy Night is cheap, because it's more text than art (and sadly, text is cheap).  But something like Miltech or Gun Haven which has a piece of art on every page, that's going to be higher on the pay scale.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Crimsondude on (19:38:04/08-21-12)
and sadly, text is cheap

...
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Black on (21:29:00/08-21-12)
and sadly, text is cheap

...
... But highly valued and appreciated.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Crimsondude on (22:35:02/08-21-12)
I could write off my freelancing income as a Hobby Loss.  ;D
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (01:04:18/08-22-12)
Well, you can always work on your pencils, good sir.

Heck, I have an art credit now. :D
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Crimsondude on (01:52:25/08-22-12)
I'd just as soon license a reproduction of the elf drawing I use as my avatar.

But my pencils (http://statigr.am/p/161668005997264805_31185206) are a whole other matter.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Teknodragon on (04:21:22/08-22-12)
For what it's worth, I've found that I much prefer .pdf over .dtf when it comes to Shadowrun. A big chunk of that is due to having a tablet (Galaxy 10.1). I used to lug around an aluminum Attache Case of Doom stuffed with gaming references when I played something to do with dungeons. Or was it dragons? Anyway, I can now do searches and swap between books quickly without taking up lots of table space. And floor space. And chair space. When building a character or trying to decide on how to spend that hard-earned karma or nuyen at my desktop, the searchability and space-savings become even more apparent. There's also nigh-instant satisfaction as well-- as soon as a book like Land of Promise comes out electronically, I don't have to mail-order it (bad local bookstore, no $$ for you!). I simply spend ten minutes trying recall my username and password for  Battlecorps, click over to the item I want, and in less time than it takes to drive to that local bookstore (for given values of local), I'm chortling gleefully over the latest antics of our favorite (and some not-so-favorite) Jackpointers whilst one or another tries to drum useful info into the reader's head.

Seriously, Shadowrun is the first (and so far only) RPG where I buy rulebooks for the tidbits of fiction, rather than the other way around. I hope y'all at Catalyst, both full-time and freelancers, get some warm fuzzies from this praise. Oh, and thank you. As I once heard, since the best thank-yous come in the form of dollars, I'll keep on buying your stuff!
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AJCarrington on (06:46:50/08-22-12)
Seriously, Shadowrun is the first (and so far only) RPG where I buy rulebooks for the tidbits of fiction, rather than the other way around. I hope y'all at Catalyst, both full-time and freelancers, get some warm fuzzies from this praise. Oh, and thank you. As I once heard, since the best thank-yous come in the form of dollars, I'll keep on buying your stuff!
+1

Could any have said any better.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (07:38:30/08-22-12)
Seriously, Shadowrun is the first (and so far only) RPG where I buy rulebooks for the tidbits of fiction, rather than the other way around. I hope y'all at Catalyst, both full-time and freelancers, get some warm fuzzies from this praise. Oh, and thank you. As I once heard, since the best thank-yous come in the form of dollars, I'll keep on buying your stuff!
+1

Could any have said any better.
Another from me. It is the fiction that first made me fall in love with the setting. For instance, even though I started with 4th, I've gone back and read classic books like Missing Blood, Bug City, Shutdown, and System Failure multiple times, just for the sheer pleasure of reading the fiction.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: WSN0W on (12:08:46/08-22-12)
I'll offer a 'hear, hear!' to that as well.

Please keep it up. The only collection of unified fiction I've read more of is Star Wars and honestly, that's largely because there are no more SR being published. The RPG line is a wonderful 'fix' for that.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: CanRay on (18:53:51/08-22-12)
(and sadly, text is cheap)
I'll remember this quote...

I'll remember it.  YOU WILL RUE THIS DAY!!!

RUE IT I TELL YOU!!!

...

I've had my moment.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Bull on (16:20:56/08-23-12)
Err, why?  It's just a truth.  Writers get paid crap compared to artists, in general.  It sucks, I don't like it, but there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (16:34:21/08-23-12)
Genuine question - does it work out unbalanced if you take the hours worked into consideration? Presumably a one page piece of art takes a lot longer to complete than a page of text, so does it not balance out in the long run? It really should if it doesn't - a lot of the writing for SR supplements is aces, whilst some of the artwork is not so much *thinks of metavariants in Runner's Companion and shudders*.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (00:00:10/08-24-12)
Depends on the writer and the artist. You have some that can bust out a drawing in ten minutes, ink it, then paint it in less than two, while others can take a month for a single piece.

Ditto for writers. You have good ones like Bull, and then you have hacks like me ... I'm fast, but hoo buddy, those first drafts are *terrible*. It takes a few passes before they look even halfway decent, but if needed, I can do up around 10,000 words in an eight-hour session. I won't be HAPPY, but I can do it. Nobody who reads it will be happy, either. :)

As for art, I'm shoddy, but I can do up super-hero style people at a fairly decent clip. Ask me to go outside that boundry and do, say, buildings, or a car, or normal people with clothing (So many folds!) and detailed hands (*whimper!*) and I'll direct you to an ACTUAL artist, thanks. If you want a cartoon doodle of Batman's head, I can do that, but beyond that? Yikes.

So, uhm, "It depends"?

The bold-faced truth of the matter is that writers are more common than artists, especially artists that can work a certain style. That drives the prices down. Yay, market forces! Wait. I mean, BOOooooo, market forces!

My entry vector for geekdom was from comics, and there, artists make *way* more than writers. That's well known and expected. Keeps me from too much envy over the art peoples. I just wish that they weren't all thin and pretty while writers tend towards fat and glasses-y. Keep the pay, just make me beautiful! *fainting slump*
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Critias on (00:23:28/08-24-12)
Genuine question - does it work out unbalanced if you take the hours worked into consideration?
The issue there is that there's no way to really know how long someone's worked on something (it's not like we have time clocks in our houses or all turn on our webcam as we start working, or something).  What's more, the amount of work involved in a product is...well...inconsistent, even for the same writer or working on very similar projects.  Sometimes one chapter will hang a writer up for a while.  Sometimes one piece of ~3,000 word fiction only takes about an hour.  It all varies wildly, not just from writer to writer, but from page to page. 

So we get paid for the work we do, not for the amount of time it takes us to do it.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (04:30:15/08-24-12)
So, are there ever occasions when you think - I was very well paid for X piece of work (because it just came fairly naturally) or do you always end up feeling underpaid? It makes me sad to think of you guys feeling under-rewarded for what's usually pretty sterling work.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (08:25:00/08-24-12)
Well, considering that, for years, I've written for free?

And now I get paid to write for a game I love, to share my enjoyment with other people and maybe, just maybe, inspire new people to pick up the game and see all kinds of adventure the ame way I have?

I have utterly no problem with the pay scale. :)

You write RPG stuff because you love RPGs, not to get rich.

If I can switch thi sup into a story?

When I was a kid, I didn't have roots. I was three days old when my family hopped in a U-Haul and left my birthplace (A town that I've never been back to, by the by), and over the next 8 years, we moved 27 times. I never had roots, and I made few friends simply because when I did, I knew that we'd move again and I'd lose them. What I *had* were books; Richard Scary and Dr Seuss were friends that I could take with me, that would be waiting for me after school no matter where we lived. Books were a touchstone that I relied on and that got me through some rough years. I'm in debt to these two men, and it's been my goal, ever since I was able to comprehend that, to give back to the community in a way that they'd taken care of me. I know that somewhere out there's a kid in the same situation I was, and if I can be the hand that writes a friend that they can carry, even for just one person, then I've done my job as a human being.

In other words, the money's nice, but that's not why I do this.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (10:35:37/08-24-12)
That's great dude. I always forget how nice it must be to do something you love for a living.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Critias on (11:24:12/08-24-12)
It's also worth pointing out, I think, that most of us don't do this "for a living."  We're not freelancing to pay the rent or put food on the table.  It's not the income we rely on to keep a roof over our head.  We've got "day jobs" (as we tend to call them) which are our real careers and/or income, and the freelancing is a side gig we do 'cause we can rather than 'cause we have to
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Simagal on (13:50:50/08-24-12)
I prefer books, those trees will pay for droping sap on my car. I used to be anti PDF, because I felt like it was hurting my flgs. But if it will never see print then I will eventually by it. Besides I can enlarge PDFs so I don't need to wear my glasses.
Land of Promise will likely bump Safehouses from the buy list when I have spare money.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Crimsondude on (18:53:47/08-24-12)
What Critias said. Though some of us are more published that others, and since we're mostly paid by the word the people who are writing large chunks of sourcebooks or entire book-length modules have it a little better than others. I have had around 125,000 words published now with Clutch, but 100,000 of those were between late 2010 and last December. Clutch is the only thing I've written for this year. Critias has written a ton of material for Missions, but no one got to see it until Gen Con. Aside from that there were only a couple short stories between this and last year's Gen Con. Of course, it's not a matter of skill (He's the best writer by far) so much as time and interest as well. I've been crazy busy myself, but I was insistent on writing the pieces I did for Clutch (the people who fight/hate dragons).


That said, it's nice to get a check for 43,000 contracted wordcount. Though to be fair it's more "Look at what they let me write!" (DeeCee! Finally!?!) than "Whoo! Money!"
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: CanRay on (22:46:30/08-24-12)
I lost money on Safehouses and Burn.  So far, the Matrix Chapter of SR2050 is the only piece that I've actually seen in the black.

Oh, and I bet Safehouses will be MUCH more useful for you than Land of Promise will EVER be.  It should be the purchase you have higher on the priorities IMHO.  ;D
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (22:52:59/08-24-12)
Now, now, CanRay, let the people who actually play decide what their priorities are. ;)
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Bull on (23:12:58/08-24-12)
At the end of the day, the check?  That's nice.  I consider that bonus money to my day job.

But having a Shadowrun fan tell you they liked something you worked on, or seeing a kickass review of your product on Drive Thru or Dumpshock or here?  Just knowing that something I wrote or edited or developed or whatever helped someone have a good time with the game world I love?  That's worth more than a measly paycheck, and it's why I don't get too upset about artists generally making more than me.

At the end of the day, pretty pictures help sell product.  But it's the words that make the game fun.

Bull
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Bull on (23:14:32/08-24-12)
By the way, and I can'tr stress this enough...  Please, review stuff you buy.  If you buy a PDF, review it on Drive Thru,.  Or drop a review here.  or on Dumpshock.  Or RPGnet.  or wherever.  Doesn't need to be lengthy, doesn't need to be glowing.  It just has to be honest.  Feedback helps us do better next time, and feedback is often what keeps us coming back for more.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: CanRay on (23:40:16/08-24-12)
Now, now, CanRay, let the people who actually play decide what their priorities are. ;)
Had to try.   :-[
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (00:08:34/08-25-12)
Oh lord yes. Writers are often neurotic messes and we need validation! Or, you know, mockery. When I screw up, I like knowing it, so I can fix it next time. On the one hand, we can know what people want more of or liked by looking at sales figures, but on the other hand, getting specifics from reviews can be huge.

To go political for just a moment, if a survey question asked, "Is President Obama doing a good job", and there were lots of 'No' votes, that tells you something. If you then get additional reponses that say, "He's horrible and needs to sign more Republican laws into effect!", it gives you a different tale than "He needs to fight against the Republicans more! I say he sucks because he rolls over!" Two different stories that both generate "He's not doing a good job" scores, but for *radically* different reasons.

(For those who now want to launch into a political thing, please don't! We try to keep that out of the forums! This was a one-off example that was being used as an example only. Much obliged!)

So, when you say if you did, or did not, like a product, giving reasons why is very, very vital. Maybe the rules weren't followed and that bugs you. Maybe soem canon was violated (The capital of the UCAS is Toronto? Lofwyr is actually a Century Ferret in disguise? WHAT?!), maybe there was too much humor, maybe there wasn't *enough* humor, maybe some bit of data got reposted on five straight pages and you're wondering who did the layout, or maybe, just MAYBE, you got a book that gave you a bunch of cool run ideas, enriched teh world, gave you well-balanced new toys, and you can't wait to tell your friends so they can buy one too ... trust me, that kind of thing brightens someone's day.

So, write reviews, tell us what you think, and know that, hey, we're fans *too*. We want to do cool stuff! Help us out, and we can make the world even more awesome than it already is.

...

Wow, we're way off topic. Hey look! Land of Promise! Elves! Gotta love 'em, right?
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (02:53:06/08-25-12)
I hadn't realised how much of a game I love is made by people doing it mostly for the love and generally not/barely turning a profit. Thank you very much for your honesty chaps - you've really got me thinking. Will definitely make more effort to review the stuff I buy in future and will definitely be looking into purchasing some more of the pdf only products. You guys rule!
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (08:27:40/08-25-12)
I hadn't realised how much of a game I love is made by people doing it mostly for the love and generally not/barely turning a profit. Thank you very much for your honesty chaps - you've really got me thinking. Will definitely make more effort to review the stuff I buy in future and will definitely be looking into purchasing some more of the pdf only products. You guys rule!
Agreed. Also why I actually purchase a copy of the book/pdf, instead of checking one of the numerous sites that will let me steal borrow acquire them through this thing called bittorrent. Unlike my music collection, where I've 'acquired' 50-60 DAYS of music for my iPod.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: shrike on (10:16:25/08-28-12)
So excited about this book. Cant wait to see what Critias has in store for me to "ooh" and "ah" about.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: DarkLloyd on (09:41:27/09-06-12)
Soooo, stop the speculation please, Drivethru rpg has it up for sale..

Lets here the skinny on it people!!
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: shrike on (11:02:07/09-06-12)
The pdf is 24 pages long. Opening fiction is excellent, as always. It reads like a travel brochure with comments dispersed throughout about various subjects: political climate, Peace Force, and what have you. Plot hooks, stats, gangs, and a new magical group. Love it. All of it.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: AceFace on (11:08:37/09-06-12)
How "noob-friendly" is it? Am I going to struggle if I don't have the original Tir Tairngire book?
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (11:22:14/09-06-12)
I'll leave a real review for a real reviewer, BUT, a few things that I look for include:

Update Demographics. There's over 5  millions people in the Tir, wit 78% of 'em being Elves. Eyeballing the older data, the Tir's lost around half a million people, mostly to exodus but fatalities racked up during the Troubles as well. The older rate was also 85% Elf. (For the math inclined, the old Elf population was 4,768,500 in all, while the new is 3,900,780, so 20 years down the line, some 867,000-ish Elves are no longer around.) Orks are the top minority, having passed up Dwarves, while humans are in fourth. Trolls have moved rom 'Negliable' to 1%, while 'Other' has dropped from 2% to 1%, but probably still outnumber Trolls.

Demographic info is skipped over by most people, but this is the kind of thing I chew the Hell out of. A country that sees a ppulation decline over 20 years must have gone through a rough patch, and since Elves haven't been around long enough for any to die of old age, so this would imply both a massive exodus (About a sixth of the country left, semi-replaced by new people) and a slow birthrate. The per capita income of the place has gone done (Mind you, it's still over 40,000Y a year, which would make the typical Seattleite drool, but) ... so, the economic issues are still a factor, but a loss that significant comes from the top, not the bottom ... lots of those missing Elves were *loaded* and took money out of the country with them. Not all of it, clearly, but big chunks. There're adventure hooks in there, following the money of the old Princes, trying to track down missing people, and so on.

Education wise, 98% of the population has at least a high school education, but fully a third of the nation has a college degree as well. Teh Tir is a land that insists that, to get ahead, you have to go to college, which implies a high level of literacy. Even Orks get out of there with at least a HS diploma, but there might be a "Gentleman's C" agreement going on or an alternative schooling path. I wouldn't at all put it past the Tr to insist on a 'separate but equal' school system, where long-lived Elves are given different lessons that short-lived Orks... this isn't mentioned (In either era!), so YMMV, but, it's notable.

Also notable is that, as Orks have become teh second-largest race, and the High Prince is an Ork as well, that they're bound to be more noticable and agitating. The assumed watchword for this is that "The Tir was formed as a land for all Metahumans, not an Elven Homeland. Treat us with respect." Just seeing this, I confess to being terribly tempted to play an Ork from the Tir, socially-active and fluent in Sperethiel (Can't speak it worth a dang, due to tusks, but able to understand it quite well, thanks) that could spin some heads. That the Ork population has roughly doubled in 20 years, despite the Troubles and certainly a large number of deaths in the riots and such, implies that Orks are on a rapid upswing. If you use bad projection, in 2139, Orks become the majority race in the Tir. 70 years is soon enough that the first generation of Elves will be able to see it happen, while the tenth generation of Orks will be coming of age.

...

Did I mention I suck at reviews?

Oh, and further indicator about life in the Tir, the poverty level slipped from claiming 15% of the population to 20% ... not only did the High Princes leave and take vast riches with them, but those left behind still haven't recovered. Some of the newly poverty-stricken are bound to be Counts and similar ranking Elven nobility, now living a whole new life after their patron fled the nation. There's some bitterness there. We also get an estimated SINless number, something that didn't exist in the old Tir. More and more interesting, eh? You now have a population that features a surging demographic and a fifth of the nation is poverty stricken, while a healthy chunk is SINless ... which means that you have a health number of local Shadowrunners. Outside Talent is also possible, as the weakened economy and loss of teh Immortals rocked the military/police pretty hard. It's now MUCH easier to get into teh Tir, and hiding inside once you get in is very much possible now, and not just for Elves. Just like that, you have a nation ready for use as an adventure setting, rather than the impregnible fortress of old that was cool to READ about, but horrible to actually ADVENTURE in. It's still tough to get in, but nothing like it used to be, which means 'runners have a reasonable expectation of success, so, major kudos to that. A setting that players can't go to and enjoy isn't good for anybody.

Education and changing demographics get an in-document nod, while "Getting in to the Tir" gets a nicely-sized write-up with far more detail, reminding me that the parts of a book that curl my toes are quite different from normal people. Some basic landscape stuff, a note about Tir currency and the hard copies that they make (Paper! Coins! Whee! I'm a huge fan of cash-in-hand, and love to see this pop up. More countries should be doing this in teh wake of Crash 2.0 wiping out digital fortunes. Not as efficient or easy to use, but holding money in your hand adds a tangible element that people cling to in times of worry. There had to be an absolute CLAMOUR for this in teh wake of the Crash, and politicians had to buckled under public pressure or get booted. The banks aren't happy, and obviously not every location will accept the stuff, but it's a godsend for any poor or economically depressed area. You can certainly imagine Redmond and Pullyup demanding that the Seattle get its hand on cash money. Something for the future, hmm?

You know, I'm doing way more speculating and extrapolating than reviewing, and I'm, what, 4 pages in? I think I'll just hush up now and let somebody who knows what they're doing take over. I'm doing this all wrong. FUN, but wrong. :)

Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Critias on (11:29:49/09-06-12)
I worked on those demographics for...a while.  Sat with the old Tir Tairngire book and Shadows of North America in front of me, for a long time, looking at the numbers, fast forwarding, basing it all on what little's been written about the Tir since those days (mostly about how Puyallup's full of refugees, and how that implies other places are full of refugees, too) thinking about some classes I've taken (and taught), talking with a faculty friend that teaches Poli-Sci instead of History so he could double-check some stuff for me (who tolerated me asking for help because he's a huge Tolkien fan).  And the whole time I was thinking "I'm a dummy.  No one will notice this.  No one will care.  This is a waste of time.  Go write something, ya dork!"

Wak, brother, I love ya. 
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: CanRay on (11:44:20/09-06-12)
How "noob-friendly" is it? Am I going to struggle if I don't have the original Tir Tairngire book?
It's so user friendly that it has a tourist version of the Microsoft Paperclip as part of the book!

...

Yes, I wish to burn the damned thing now as well.  ;D
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Crimsondude on (12:08:05/09-06-12)
Opening fiction is excellent, as always.
I know something you all don't know ... :D
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Nath on (13:47:03/09-06-12)
Update Demographics. There's over 5  millions people in the Tir, wit 78% of 'em being Elves. Eyeballing the older data, the Tir's lost around half a million people, mostly to exodus but fatalities racked up during the Troubles as well. The older rate was also 85% Elf. (For the math inclined, the old Elf population was 4,768,500 in all, while the new is 3,900,780, so 20 years down the line, some 867,000-ish Elves are no longer around.) Orks are the top minority, having passed up Dwarves, while humans are in fourth. Trolls have moved rom 'Negliable' to 1%, while 'Other' has dropped from 2% to 1%, but probably still outnumber Trolls.
Shadows of North America already introduced much larger changes, as part of a major overhaul of most demographic datas in North America (I liked the idea someone proposed a while ago that the NAN lied on their population figures because of some Council votes weighing them in, but that wouldn't include Tir Tairngire).

By settling halfway between Tir Tairngire and Shadows of North America, The Land of Promise is somewhat retconing the retcon. I wouldn't try to make sense of figures that say GDP fell from 308 billions nuyen to 125 in a decade, then back to 210 (that would be Norway becoming Slovakia, then Finland, if you want a comparison).
Though you could make all three Per Capita Income figures somewhat make change by stating SoNA inverted two numbers, 25,000 instead of 52,000.

Tir Tairngire (2054)
Population: 5,610,000
Metatypes: Human 1%, Elf 85%, Dwarf 7%, Ork 5%, Troll Negligible, Other 2%
Per Capita Income: 55,000¥
Population Below Poverty Level: 15%
Education: High School Equivalency 53%, College Equivalency 30%, Advanced Studies Certificate 13%

Shadowrun of North America (2063)
Population: 5,010,000
Metatypes: Human 4%, Elf 81%, Dwarf 7%, Ork 5%, Troll 1%, Other 2%
Per Capita Income: 25,000¥
Below Poverty Level: 26%
Education: Less Than Twelve Years 6%, High School Equivalency 55%, College Degree 29%, Advanced Degrees 10%

Land of Promise (2074)
Population: 5,001,000
Metatypes: Human 3%, Elf 78%, Dwarf 8%, Ork 9%, Troll 1%, Other 1%
Per Capita Income: 42,000¥
Population Below Poverty Level: 20%
Estimated SINless: 7%
Education: Less Than Twelve Years 2%, High School Equivalency 52%, College Degrees 35%, Advanced Degrees 11%
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Crimsondude on (15:07:27/09-06-12)
Shadows of North America ...
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (15:09:09/09-06-12)
Quote from: Land of Promise, pg 19
> I think I know one reason for Willamette’s edge. Rumor is a certain whitehaired
friend has shown his head somewhere, both digitally and in realspace.
He’s working with Compustat, not Telestrian, for help in his never-ending
search. Jesus, Buddha, and Zeus only know what tricks he’s showing them in
exchange, who else he’s been consulting for these last few years, or what he’s
capable of now.
> FastJack

> White-haired and searching? Puck’s no friend of mine, Jack.
> Bull

> No, this one’s an elf. He’s also quite a bit older and infinitely more artful than
Puck …
> FastJack
Am I the only one who thinks this is a reference to Leonardo?
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Critias on (15:11:05/09-06-12)
Quote from: Land of Promise, pg 19
> I think I know one reason for Willamette’s edge. Rumor is a certain whitehaired
friend has shown his head somewhere, both digitally and in realspace.
He’s working with Compustat, not Telestrian, for help in his never-ending
search. Jesus, Buddha, and Zeus only know what tricks he’s showing them in
exchange, who else he’s been consulting for these last few years, or what he’s
capable of now.
> FastJack

> White-haired and searching? Puck’s no friend of mine, Jack.
> Bull

> No, this one’s an elf. He’s also quite a bit older and infinitely more artful than
Puck …
> FastJack
Am I the only one who thinks this is a reference to Leonardo?
I sure hope you are.  I thought I was bein' more clear than that.   :-\

Here's a hint -- he's so "artful" that he was on the very first Shadowrun covers ever printed, and was also on the cover of one of our most recent publications.  But he dodged all the rest of them in between the two. ;)
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (15:22:55/09-06-12)
Heh. You say old, white-haired elf and mention art, my mind leaps to Leonardo. Nice to see Dodger is still around, though.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Black on (16:43:52/09-06-12)
Opening fiction is excellent, as always.
I know something you all don't know ... :D

That is so cruel... To tease but not spill something...  A little bread crumb at least?  Plllllleeeeaaaasssssseeeeee!  :'(
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Wakshaani on (16:55:16/09-06-12)
I worked on those demographics for...a while.  Sat with the old Tir Tairngire book and Shadows of North America in front of me, for a long time, looking at the numbers, fast forwarding, basing it all on what little's been written about the Tir since those days (mostly about how Puyallup's full of refugees, and how that implies other places are full of refugees, too) thinking about some classes I've taken (and taught), talking with a faculty friend that teaches Poli-Sci instead of History so he could double-check some stuff for me (who tolerated me asking for help because he's a huge Tolkien fan).  And the whole time I was thinking "I'm a dummy.  No one will notice this.  No one will care.  This is a waste of time.  Go write something, ya dork!"

Wak, brother, I love ya.

Much love to you too, amigo. Damn good job.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Critias on (17:12:59/09-06-12)
Opening fiction is excellent, as always.
I know something you all don't know ... :D

That is so cruel... To tease but not spill something...  A little bread crumb at least?  Plllllleeeeaaaasssssseeeeee!  :'(
It's nothing terribly juicy.  I just snuck in a little wink and a nod to a friend's old PC, there in the fic. 
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (13:32:28/09-07-12)
Given that Puyallup and the Tir Border is a bit more leaky makes this sourcebook of interest as I have a collection of escapees holed up in Puyallup working on creatinga 'Nob hill' section and paying off KE to patrol the area.
Title: Re: Land of Promise - Rampant Speculation Please!
Post by: Mirikon on (14:36:20/09-07-12)
Given that Puyallup and the Tir Border is a bit more leaky makes this sourcebook of interest as I have a collection of escapees holed up in Puyallup working on creatinga 'Nob hill' section and paying off KE to patrol the area.
Just remember that getting from Seattle to the Tir involves TWO border crossings. There's a nice chunk of Salish land between Puyallup and the Tir border, afterall. Also, most of the southern area of Puyallup is Tarislar, which is already home to a lot of Tir refugees and expats.

And the book says that the official border crossings are looser, but you can bet that getting through in places that aren't so 'official' is still going to be tough, and if you get caught, you're still going to get dosed with Laes and dumped naked on the other side of the border, if you're lucky. If you're unlucky, Ehran's old Paladins will be the ones to find you, instead of the Peace Force.