Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: VajraSupremus on <07-22-12/1909:50>

Title: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <07-22-12/1909:50>
So i've been on here for a while now, but never posted because i didn't think i could provide input.
I'm a long-time fan of Shadowrun since '07, back in middle school coming across forum boards and RP fansites.

I've always enjoyed the idea of the Horrors and Invae and other Extraplanar entities, which creates a theory on how manacycles work on a galactic scale.

What if Horrors and Shadow spirits and Invae live on the astral planes(or even physical areas) of other planets, and use our connection to mana as a sort of long-way astral travel from their place to ours? Once enough mana flows in for them to construct capable enough astral forms from, they enter our world and wreak their havoc and whatnot. The planet(s) of the Horrors could be in other parts of the Milky Way, or even just in nearby galaxies can be considered plausible.

This could also give rise to the idea of magic soon being able to be worked easily in places other than Earth as it grows stronger in our solar system, as long as appropriate mana fields and generated to draw power from.

Any ideas on its feasibility? Any detractors?
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Longshot23 on <07-23-12/0404:10>
Interestiing idea, and you could certainly house-rule that being the case. But how does mana fit into a Grand Unified Field theory?

Making those threats more extraterrestrial loses something, in my opinion. Probably several somethings. Being an astral/metaplanar threat really makes them different (thought processes, motivations, fears, etc)  from an entity that originates from another ball of rock somewhere in space. It possibly also changes the astral plane to being no more than a version of 'hyperspace' - does this really fit?

Side question: Do insect spirits require a minimum mana level, or do they get what they need by forming melds with metahumans (insect spirits = Goa'uld? ;) )? Something I'd like to ask Man-of -Many-Names  8)

Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <07-23-12/0904:22>
I like it. Even though they exist in the material world, spirits would still be astral creatures, sometimes inhabiting both planes. Their innate abilities and perceptions would still make their motivations alien: Lovecraft's Outer Gods all existed on our plane as extraterrestrials and were still unfathomable.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Sichr on <07-23-12/1130:54>
Nice theory. Works well for me. Different types of space objects, worlds and creatures seem to work well for variety of astral creatures.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: DarkLloyd on <07-23-12/1212:06>
it does beg the question tho, if they are just different planets and the astral plane is used for "space travel", before the mana cycle is up in a few thousand years, would we be make space craft that will get to those worlds...
And if so how do you think the horrors would respond to a few anti matter bombs to their houses and real bodies........
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: TheVanguard on <07-23-12/1324:53>
How would you imagine the planets of Bugs and Shedim to be like? It seems like a bit of a stretch to me that there is a planet out there where insect life has developed that is identical to that of our planet in most regards, and that their astral presence is greater than that of our home-grown bugs.

The idea of Shedim from outer space would bear some resemblance to Scientology's alien ghosts theory, though. In your game universe, Hubbard might really have been on the right track.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <07-23-12/1816:25>
Interestiing idea, and you could certainly house-rule that being the case. But how does mana fit into a Grand Unified Field theory?

Making those threats more extraterrestrial loses something, in my opinion. Probably several somethings. Being an astral/metaplanar threat really makes them different (thought processes, motivations, fears, etc)  from an entity that originates from another ball of rock somewhere in space. It possibly also changes the astral plane to being no more than a version of 'hyperspace' - does this really fit?

Side question: Do insect spirits require a minimum mana level, or do they get what they need by forming melds with metahumans (insect spirits = Goa'uld? ;) )? Something I'd like to ask Man-of -Many-Names  8)


It could truly fit. The idea is that Astral space has two forms; the standard Gaiasphere that every world has(local astral space, and where all the mana used in our powers originate), and then the primary mana flow the universe has, and the latter explains how these being enter our world via this space.

See, i think that Invae use the bodies to stay there because it's on an idea i have. Because their Gaiasphere is potentially different(supporting a different planetary environment), ours is not as easily to be attached to, so Inhabitation is an adaptation to this issue. They gain a physical anchor adapted to this Gaiasphere, granting them long-term staying capacity.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <07-23-12/1822:05>
How would you imagine the planets of Bugs and Shedim to be like? It seems like a bit of a stretch to me that there is a planet out there where insect life has developed that is identical to that of our planet in most regards, and that their astral presence is greater than that of our home-grown bugs.

The idea of Shedim from outer space would bear some resemblance to Scientology's alien ghosts theory, though. In your game universe, Hubbard might really have been on the right track.

I'm not particularly versed in Scientology, but the idea is that these being come from primarily Astral space, at least the Horrors do. Invae would more likely have physical bodies that they take with them to here, but being that their bodies can't exist here, they perform Merges. Horrors could be completely Astral, stuck on planets when the mana in that area ebbs away, trapping them there and putting them into a torpor due to the lack of power, while others may scramble for the few sites of energy to be inevitably found.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Sichr on <07-24-12/0039:31>
I will add. We need to clarify why it is possible that some metaplanar beings are able to Materialize and become part of this world, while others depend on vessels...and even magicians from our own Gaiasphere are not able to materialize from astral perception, just to Manifest.
Possibilities there are:
1) It is an attribute of Gaiasphere, that every being is able to posess just one and only one materialized "body"
2) Like the worlds (and Gaiaspheres) are islands in the Manastream...inhabited islands...there are also beings that inhabit Manastream itself, having their own unique abilities. Also universal entities...ie Fire Spirits, that can find home in every star across the gallaxy.
3) Also there is a possibility that Manastream carries astral forms of entities originating from destroyed worlds, that have nowhere to return to. And such entities are trying to anchor themselves in new Gaiasphere, doing it by taking locals as hosts...
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <07-24-12/0050:58>
It also raises the question of whether humans could use Alchera or Astral Projection for interstellar travel, essentially making Deep Metaplanar quests planetary excursions.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <07-24-12/1519:59>
It also raises the question of whether humans could use Alchera or Astral Projection for interstellar travel, essentially making Deep Metaplanar quests planetary excursions.

This is actually something i thought of a campaign: PC's are thrust into discovering the remnants of a secret project that intends to create a Voyager. Someone who can traverse the Metaplanes indefinitely, defying biological limits and becoming not unlike that of a spirit's mana-physiology.

Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Sichr on <07-24-12/1526:43>
SG 1 in action :)

But you are realy inspiring something. Thank you :)
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <07-24-12/1536:33>
SG 1 in action :)

But you are realy inspiring something. Thank you :)

Oh, isn't that something great to hear! :D

Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: DarkLloyd on <07-24-12/1716:27>
It also raises the question of whether humans could use Alchera or Astral Projection for interstellar travel, essentially making Deep Metaplanar quests planetary excursions.

When I first read that I thought it said Algebra or Astral"
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: TheVanguard on <07-25-12/0143:45>

I'm not particularly versed in Scientology, but the idea is that these being come from primarily Astral space, at least the Horrors do. Invae would more likely have physical bodies that they take with them to here, but being that their bodies can't exist here, they perform Merges. Horrors could be completely Astral, stuck on planets when the mana in that area ebbs away, trapping them there and putting them into a torpor due to the lack of power, while others may scramble for the few sites of energy to be inevitably found.

Sorry, I just realized that I got Horrors mixed up with Shedim, but looks like you still got what I was trying to say.

Well, basically Scientology says that we are under attack from ghosts from outer space (Thetans) that slowly drive us insane (that's the reason why Psychology is BS). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu) if you're interested in the details.

Are there "normal" metaplanes in your game universe too, or do you want to replace them with alien planets completely ?
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <07-25-12/1546:22>

I'm not particularly versed in Scientology, but the idea is that these being come from primarily Astral space, at least the Horrors do. Invae would more likely have physical bodies that they take with them to here, but being that their bodies can't exist here, they perform Merges. Horrors could be completely Astral, stuck on planets when the mana in that area ebbs away, trapping them there and putting them into a torpor due to the lack of power, while others may scramble for the few sites of energy to be inevitably found.

Sorry, I just realized that I got Horrors mixed up with Shedim, but looks like you still got what I was trying to say.

Well, basically Scientology says that we are under attack from ghosts from outer space (Thetans) that slowly drive us insane (that's the reason why Psychology is BS). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu) if you're interested in the details.

Are there "normal" metaplanes in your game universe too, or do you want to replace them with alien planets completely ?


There are. Metaplanar dimensions will be either seperate Astral dominions, or areas that are coterminous with celestial bodies(suns, moons, comets, planets). This kind of diversity helps bring up the idea of a homeworld for Invae, and other spiritual beings. Horrors seem most certainly astral, being essentially sapient negative emotions and mana, with attractions to life- infused worlds for sustenance.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Mason on <07-26-12/1223:03>
How would you imagine the planets of Bugs and Shedim to be like? It seems like a bit of a stretch to me that there is a planet out there where insect life has developed that is identical to that of our planet in most regards, and that their astral presence is greater than that of our home-grown bugs.

The idea of Shedim from outer space would bear some resemblance to Scientology's alien ghosts theory, though. In your game universe, Hubbard might really have been on the right track.

Ender's game.


As for the topic at hand, wouldn't every spirit having a planet make us a type of spirit? If we leave our bodies, that is? Shouldn't that then mean that whenever we leave our bodies (our 'anchors', if you will) that we can be summoned by an extraplanar entity? Could that mean that spirits which pop up here unexpectedly are on a metaplanar quest? If we are spirits, would that make us spirits of man? When we summon spirits of man, are we summoning ancestor spirits, spirits of fellow mages that failed to return from the metaplanes, or what? If we are spirits, can we eventually learn materialization and transcend the need for physical bodies (for a time)?
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <07-26-12/1445:27>
That would certainlt add a new danger to being awakened, being summoned yourself. Could explain freaky nightmares, unsolved disappearances, and any number of strange things.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <07-26-12/1519:39>
Not really though. The theory implies the existence of planetary bodies for only some spirits. Most metaplanar dimensions, like the Elemental Planes for the five known elemental spirits, are Astral, though other little "colonies" can exist( small star home to Fire spirits, Water in space holding Water spirits, etc.)in physical space.

Metahumanity is a physical entity, as is most life on Earth. So unless we develop magic that can conjure us, i doubt we'll be summoned anytime soon.

Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <07-26-12/1532:28>

Metahumanity is a physical entity, as is most life on Earth. So unless we develop magic that can conjure us, i doubt we'll be summoned anytime soon.

Still, parts of metahumanity that can Astral Project being "called" while projecting would make an interesting plot device.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <07-26-12/1544:35>

Metahumanity is a physical entity, as is most life on Earth. So unless we develop magic that can conjure us, i doubt we'll be summoned anytime soon.

Still, parts of metahumanity that can Astral Project being "called" while projecting would make an interesting plot device.

Extremely so. Sorta like a spirit using the metahuman version of their "True Name" to bring them there.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Jareth Valar on <08-08-12/1557:10>
Something VERY similar to this has been the running theory at our table for a long time now.

As a matter of fact, the last campaign (3+ years) we just ended a few months ago merged Shadowrun and Warhammer 40,000 (somewhat, LONG convoluted metaplot ???) with this concept.

Horrors = Chaos (Daemons specifically), Invae = A form of scout/pre-invasion force. The reason they look like our bugs is the same reason that when we go to the metaplanes our astral form gets altered to appear to "blend in".  :D
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Sichr on <08-08-12/1600:22>
Ive got that W40K vs. SRA idea also...for one shot run, since my players tend to be quite militant I want to give them taste of real warfare :). Planned that for this years xmass session :)
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Jareth Valar on <08-08-12/1609:58>
LOL, works wonders omae.

We did a lot of stuff from the Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, Rogue Trader stuff. I even have a direct conversion from their damage system (for gear at least, mever used most of it, but once you know the math it's hard to stop :P) to SR4 that everyone at our table thought worked near perfect. (i.e. Unarmored vs. bolter round = chunky bits). Glad to share if interested.

Might be a bit much for most people, but, everyone likes a different flavor.   8)
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Sichr on <08-08-12/1820:15>
Indeed :)
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Jareth Valar on <08-08-12/2031:41>
If you have access to the Dark Heresy stuff the math is pretty simple. Add the Min damage and the Max damage and divide the whole thing by 3 (round normal). We just used Pen as AP straight

That makes an auto pistol 5P with SA/FA; a shotgun is 6P, etc.

It gets ugly when you do the advanced weapons, for example:
AutoCannon 18P, AP -4, SA/BF/FA
Heavy Stubber 6P, AP -3, FA
MP Lascannon 25P, AP -10, SS (yes I know lasers are AP-half, but this makes more sense
IG Boltgun 7P, AP -4, SA/BF

That's not even the Astartes stuff.  :o 8)
Their boltgun is like a BF panther cannon (only 1 more damage)  ::)
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Dampfish on <08-10-12/0526:39>
That would certainlt add a new danger to being awakened, being summoned yourself. Could explain freaky nightmares, unsolved disappearances, and any number of strange things.

As well as comas. People don't wake up because their spirits have been summoned to another plane.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Irian on <08-31-12/1433:16>
What if Horrors and Shadow spirits and Invae live on the astral planes(or even physical areas) of other planets

Nice theorey, but I think it doesn't fly. Why? Because the metaplanes are much more than any other planet could be. There's a metaplane with cowboys, equipped with clockwork-cyberware riding on dinosaurs, for example. That simply doesn't feel like another planet. You could try to explain horrors with "from another planet", ok, but many, many other things you cannot explain that way. So personally I would say, no, it's pretty unlikely, that the metaplanes - the place where all these beings come from - are simply different planets, connected by the astral space. They are much more than that, not even bound by the same basic physical laws as our world. Another planet would follow similar rules, but the metaplanes aren't bound by these rules. Thus they aren't simply a physical place somewhere else and thus cannot be another planet.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <08-31-12/1605:04>
What if Horrors and Shadow spirits and Invae live on the astral planes(or even physical areas) of other planets

Nice theorey, but I think it doesn't fly. Why? Because the metaplanes are much more than any other planet could be. There's a metaplane with cowboys, equipped with clockwork-cyberware riding on dinosaurs, for example. That simply doesn't feel like another planet. You could try to explain horrors with "from another planet", ok, but many, many other things you cannot explain that way. So personally I would say, no, it's pretty unlikely, that the metaplanes - the place where all these beings come from - are simply different planets, connected by the astral space. They are much more than that, not even bound by the same basic physical laws as our world. Another planet would follow similar rules, but the metaplanes aren't bound by these rules. Thus they aren't simply a physical place somewhere else and thus cannot be another planet.

You kinda missed the follow-up, unless i wasn't clear. The potential for other specific spiritual beings to have physical counterparts to their metaplanar homes is incredibly viable. Similar to Primordial spirits who make homes on our world, there could parallels on other planets like this. That's the theory. Not just Invae or Horrors, but any spirit with a penchant for territorial proclivities. Anywhere from Hive-worlds and giant crypts full of corpses to play with or anything a spirit's power could conjure into being.

Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <08-31-12/1610:23>
And besides, who says our concepts of physics or even logic would apply to strange dual-naturex beings? Especially of the "alien and superior" type, like F6+ spirits
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Sichr on <08-31-12/1929:27>
What if Horrors and Shadow spirits and Invae live on the astral planes(or even physical areas) of other planets

Nice theorey, but I think it doesn't fly. Why? Because the metaplanes are much more than any other planet could be. There's a metaplane with cowboys, equipped with clockwork-cyberware riding on dinosaurs, for example. That simply doesn't feel like another planet. You could try to explain horrors with "from another planet", ok, but many, many other things you cannot explain that way. So personally I would say, no, it's pretty unlikely, that the metaplanes - the place where all these beings come from - are simply different planets, connected by the astral space. They are much more than that, not even bound by the same basic physical laws as our world. Another planet would follow similar rules, but the metaplanes aren't bound by these rules. Thus they aren't simply a physical place somewhere else and thus cannot be another planet.

Even watching Firefly, BSG, Gundam series and lots of other movies and series proves this statement wrong.
Next...
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Bull on <08-31-12/2212:35>

I'm a long-time fan of Shadowrun since '07, back in middle school coming across forum boards and RP fansites.


That popping noise you hear is the sound of me visibly and physically aging 10 years after just reading that sentence :)  I thought I felt old already, but now I feel freaking ancient :(

(For what it's worth, I think it's awesome we have younger fans like you playing Shadowrun.  That's the kind of thing we need to keep the game and our hobby alive.  :))
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <08-31-12/2224:40>

I'm a long-time fan of Shadowrun since '07, back in middle school coming across forum boards and RP fansites.


That popping noise you hear is the sound of me visibly and physically aging 10 years after just reading that sentence :)  I thought I felt old already, but now I feel freaking ancient :(

(For what it's worth, I think it's awesome we have younger fans like you playing Shadowrun.  That's the kind of thing we need to keep the game and our hobby alive.  :))

It made 8th grade a whole lot better, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Bull on <08-31-12/2229:50>
By comparison, I was in 10th grade when Shadowrun debuted back in '89. :)

Course, I know folks who play and were out of college when it came out, so...  Even I'm not the oldest dog around here :)
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: VajraSupremus on <08-31-12/2247:39>
Well you certainly are the Bull though ;).

Say, where would a discussion on reasonable, Essence-free implants be appropriate on here? I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Sichr on <09-01-12/0228:53>
I thought that time means nothing for Amish taxi drivers. Something like:
In business since 19th century.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Jareth Valar on <09-01-12/0817:49>
By comparison, I was in 10th grade when Shadowrun debuted back in '89. :)

Course, I know folks who play and were out of college when it came out, so...  Even I'm not the oldest dog around here :)

Woof, woof, omae.  8)
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: DarkLloyd on <09-03-12/2337:26>
By comparison, I was in 10th grade when Shadowrun debuted back in '89. :)

Course, I know folks who play and were out of college when it came out, so...  Even I'm not the oldest dog around here :)
Yeah I started SR in '90 (it took two years to filter down to Backwoods GA) and I was in 11th grade then. It really makes me feel old to know I have characters older than some of the posters here....... :P
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <09-04-12/1017:04>
By comparison, I was in 10th grade when Shadowrun debuted back in '89. :)
By comparison, I was 23 and halfway through my miltary service....
Quote
Course, I know folks who play and were out of college when it came out, so...  Even I'm not the oldest dog around here :)
Alarmingly enough, neither am I....
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <09-04-12/1018:38>
It really makes me feel old to know I have characters older than some of the posters here....... :P
I have dice older that some of the posters here. And a lot older than some of the guys at my FLGS....
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <09-04-12/1036:23>
It really makes me feel old to know I have characters older than some of the posters here....... :P
I have dice older that some of the posters here. And a lot older than some of the guys at my FLGS....

I have dice older than you, Patrick, and I'm one of the SR3 whipper-snappers. Ah, hand-me downs from old gamers.
But I was only 2 when SR first debuted
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: FastJack on <09-04-12/1320:32>
It really makes me feel old to know I have characters older than some of the posters here....... :P
I have dice older that some of the posters here. And a lot older than some of the guys at my FLGS....

I have dice older than you, Patrick, and I'm one of the SR3 whipper-snappers. Ah, hand-me downs from old gamers.
But I was only 2 when SR first debuted
:o

dammit.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: DarkLloyd on <09-05-12/1449:49>
It really makes me feel old to know I have characters older than some of the posters here....... :P
I have dice older that some of the posters here. And a lot older than some of the guys at my FLGS....

Heh. Yeah one of my D6's was given to me by my uncle, and he confiscated it from an inmate when he was a guard at Alcatraz. I always make sure that one is in my Shadowrun dice, to remind the other dice what happens to my character if they fail me.  ;)
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: CanRay on <09-05-12/1714:31>
It's AWOL at the moment, but I have a brass D6 my Father made me back when he was a Machinist.
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Red Canti on <10-10-12/2225:36>
Shouldn't that then mean that whenever we leave our bodies (our 'anchors', if you will) that we can be summoned by an extraplanar entity?
And if such entities are capable of summoning us, what's to stop them from hiring us?

"Wait, Mister Johnson is a what?"
Title: Re: Theory on Astral beings and physical dimension placements; a dissertation.
Post by: Mithlas on <11-29-12/2114:10>
That would certainlt add a new danger to being awakened, being summoned yourself. Could explain freaky nightmares, unsolved disappearances, and any number of strange things.
A very interesting possibility.

I'm basing the astral world in my Shadowrun game off of sumrak ("twilight" in the book translations into English, "the gloom" in the English translations of the movies) from Nightwatch, a Russian novel series.