Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Official Announcements => Topic started by: JM_Hardy on (17:59:52/05-16-12)

Title: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: JM_Hardy on (17:59:52/05-16-12)
Back when we released the original Gun Heaven last year, we were very pleased with the reception. People seemed to like the large, full-color art for each piece, and the in-character descriptions. But most of all, people liked having more guns (except Bull, who told us there were enough guns in the games, and then he asked us why we didn't focus more on bringing cyberdecks back into the game, but we're used to that from him). So in that light--Gun Heaven 2 has been unleashed and is on sale now (Battleshop (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2989), DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/102362/Shadowrun%3A-Gun-Heaven-2))! Here's the rundown:


FRIEND OF THE DESPERATE AND THE HUNTED

The only friend you’ll ever need. The last friend you’ll ever have. Your gun is the one thing in your life that should be dependable, that should always make a nice loud bang when you squeeze the trigger, and should always bring down whoever you think should fall. Of course, if your weapon is going to be that important to you, you’ll need one that suits you perfectly. And to find the right match, it’s best if you have a lot of choices.

Welcome back to Gun Heaven, where your next best friend is waiting for you. Dozens of options await, from the troll-friendly Krime Cannon to the foldable Terracotta Arms Mordred, from the stylish Shiawase Arms K2072 to the true tool of the desperate, the Barrens Special. And on top of that is a new breakthrough in ammo that gives you a better chance to hit your intended target.

Gun Heaven 2 contains fifty new guns for Shadowrun, each with a large, full-color illustration and complete game information and statistics. They’re waiting for you—take a look and find that special friend that fits perfectly in your hands.

Gun Heaven 2 is for use with Shadowrun, Twentieth Anniversary Edition.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Mirikon on (18:09:08/05-16-12)
Yay! More bang bang!
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (19:21:10/05-16-12)
Yay! More bang bang!
State of the Art Grade-A Bang-Bang, no less!  ;D
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: NinthSphere on (23:01:23/05-16-12)
Because the world can always use more high-powered hole punches.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Wakshaani on (04:06:38/05-17-12)
Personally, I think you should have met Bull and I halfway and given us a hold-out Cyberdeck gun.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: JustADude on (05:43:27/05-17-12)
Personally, I think you should have met Bull and I halfway and given us a hold-out Cyberdeck gun.

Just make it a 're-skin' of the Ares Executive Protector that has a customizable Weapon Commlink as a Stock Mod. ;D
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Sichr on (07:31:04/05-17-12)
Hm
In fact, with Arsenal rules for weapon customization, I cannot see why those are not used when creating new catalog

Nice new piece of light ammo from SK, I like that :)

Everyone loves lasers and there is a lot of telling how it makes Armor obsolette
well, this I dont understand...since Lasers do 1/2 AP, while Gauss riffles do 1/2 -4 to AP...(of course there is that 8 points of availability difference)

A few battle rifles and Sniper rifles, a few fashion line things, well I can hardly see any progress or difference against classics (maybe that this come with pictures)
Saeder-Krupp definitely has the best weapon design in the catalog
Riser, who tells you that every piece on the list is crap (Who the frak is this guy, he is paid by Ares or Azies or something?)

Painfull lack of heavies (maybe 4 new? Like single shot assault cannon  ??? )

Overall for 12 bucks:
6/10 (because of nice pictures)
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: FastJack on (09:33:31/05-17-12)
Quick question. Mostly for my record-keeping.

It says on the "login" page of the book that the current date/time is 23 Nov 2072, 0635 hrs. This seems to be a mistake since the first Gun Heaven's time was 6/15/2073. Should I just mark it as 5/15/2074 (ish) to keep in line with the other books?
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (12:08:54/05-17-12)
Someone changed the time on their CommLink in order to fool some Demo Program they're using?  ;D
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Digital_Viking on (12:11:13/05-17-12)
Said it on FB, I'll say it here - I blame CanRay!

 :P
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (12:19:25/05-17-12)
Said it on FB, I'll say it here - I blame CanRay!

 :P
Despite being a major gun nut, I was not involved with this project.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Digital_Viking on (12:20:26/05-17-12)
Despite being a major gun nut, I was not involved with this project.
Can still blame for you for something ;)
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Wakshaani on (12:22:39/05-17-12)
Despite being a major gun nut, I was not involved with this project.
Can still blame for you for something ;)

Sure! Blame him for not playtesting it with his group. :D
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Sichr on (12:28:24/05-17-12)
Id blame him for NOT being part of this project. At least there may had been something with the right canadian punch. Like a FartGun or something...
(I know..those memes)
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Lysanderz on (12:38:12/05-17-12)
New guns? NEW GUNS?

Finally a chance to let out my inner wacko.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (21:25:10/05-17-12)
Id blame him for NOT being part of this project. At least there may had been something with the right canadian punch. Like a FartGun or something...
(I know..those memes)
The correct answer to that is the fact that the Royal Canadian Air Farce is equipped with the Chicken Cannon.  ;D
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Mirikon on (21:45:58/05-17-12)
Wait a minute! Canada has armed forces? I just thought they had lumberjacks and beavers with razor wire.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: JM_Hardy on (23:56:40/05-17-12)
Quick question. Mostly for my record-keeping.

It says on the "login" page of the book that the current date/time is 23 Nov 2072, 0635 hrs. This seems to be a mistake since the first Gun Heaven's time was 6/15/2073. Should I just mark it as 5/15/2074 (ish) to keep in line with the other books?

Yeah, sorry about that. I'll get the file updated ASAP.

Jason H.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (01:01:33/05-18-12)
Wait a minute! Canada has armed forces? I just thought they had lumberjacks and beavers with razor wire.
Yes, we do, and they bled badly in Afghanistan.  With much less than fifty different types of firearms, to keep this on topic.  (And starting the war there in FOREST Digicam.)

Standard Training for the Canadian Armed Forces is based off a manual written by the British SAS.

Now, what do you think our Special Forces team trains by?

More on topic:  I like the "Gutter Guns" of Krime Firearms.  More firearms that are likely to be in gang hands and the like.  Also, that two-shot pump will be a good shopkeeper's firearm, methinks.  Seeing as we don't have a double-barreled shotgun for some strange reason in Shadowrun.  (Other than the insanely priced one, that is.).
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: JustADude on (01:20:49/05-18-12)
Standard Training for the Canadian Armed Forces is based off a manual written by the British SAS.

Now, what do you think our Special Forces team trains by?

USMC Basic Training curriculum? ;D
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Digital_Viking on (05:45:55/05-18-12)
Standard Training for the Canadian Armed Forces is based off a manual written by the British SAS.

Now, what do you think our Special Forces team trains by?

USMC Basic Training curriculum? ;D
<3
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Mirikon on (07:44:37/05-18-12)
Standard Training for the Canadian Armed Forces is based off a manual written by the British SAS.

Now, what do you think our Special Forces team trains by?

USMC Basic Training curriculum? ;D
+1 to you, sir.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Black on (08:01:37/05-18-12)
USMC?  oh marines right?

And where do they go to train... Australia (just took another shipment of 2,500 for training thank you very much... :) )
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Digital_Viking on (08:04:43/05-18-12)
And where do they go to train... Australia (just took another shipment of 2,500 for training thank you very much... :) )

Well of course - training in desolate wasteland bereft of civilization is a specialty!

Plus we get lots of requests to visit from the sheilas  8)
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: FastJack on (08:15:25/05-18-12)
Quick question. Mostly for my record-keeping.

It says on the "login" page of the book that the current date/time is 23 Nov 2072, 0635 hrs. This seems to be a mistake since the first Gun Heaven's time was 6/15/2073. Should I just mark it as 5/15/2074 (ish) to keep in line with the other books?

Yeah, sorry about that. I'll get the file updated ASAP.

Jason H.
Awesome.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (09:32:30/05-18-12)
Standard Training for the Canadian Armed Forces is based off a manual written by the British SAS.

Now, what do you think our Special Forces team trains by?
USMC Basic Training curriculum? ;D
Nope.  All I know is that Gurkhas smile at JTF-2's training regimen.  It's classified.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Digital_Viking on (09:40:35/05-18-12)
Nope.  All I know is that Gurkhas smile at JTF-2's training regimen.  It's classified.

Played with some of the JTF boys when I was doing FAST, nice fellas - very polite.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (13:34:04/05-18-12)
My favorite comment is Kanes under the Onotari Arms Sierra Libra  ;D

Nice collection of guns.

Rasmus
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Mäx on (16:42:31/05-18-12)
Also, that two-shot pump will be a good shopkeeper's firearm, methinks.
I think i need to add one of those modified for SA as a backup weapon for my combat face character.
It's pretty amazing piece for a light pistol.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (17:25:12/05-18-12)
Also, that two-shot pump will be a good shopkeeper's firearm, methinks.
I think i need to add one of those modified for SA as a backup weapon for my combat face character.
It's pretty amazing piece for a light pistol.
Just watch the recoil on it.  It's got to be a steel-clad slitch!
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Mirikon on (22:45:49/05-18-12)
If I'm going with a light pistol, I've yet to see anything better than the Sakura Fubuki. However, I have been playing with the idea of a Mage/Heavy weapons guy...
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Carmody on (11:21:38/05-22-12)
Just some small remarks:
   - the 2 last pages do not have a page number (nitpicking I know)
   - In the last pages table Renraku is unfortunately spelled Reraku (n missing)
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Hermes on (10:03:47/05-27-12)
Wow.  A book of gun porn.  :P
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: hobgoblin on (11:02:38/05-27-12)
If I'm going with a light pistol, I've yet to see anything better than the Sakura Fubuki. However, I have been playing with the idea of a Mage/Heavy weapons guy...
Sounds a bit redundant.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Mirikon on (11:19:04/05-27-12)
If I'm going with a light pistol, I've yet to see anything better than the Sakura Fubuki. However, I have been playing with the idea of a Mage/Heavy weapons guy...
Sounds a bit redundant.
Depends on the spell loadout. Think, for a moment, on a mage who has a healthy array of Health, Detection, Illusion, and Manipulation spells, and uses a SA Assault Cannon and spirits for offense. For astral battles, he uses spirits and a weapon focus.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (14:08:46/05-27-12)
Troll Magician.  I mean, hell, an AK-97 looks like a toy in their hands anyhow.  ;D
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Ryo on (15:22:39/06-18-12)
I have two main nitpicks for this book.

1: Why is there an SA battle rifle? I know there are people who think Battle Rifles should use Longarms instead of Automatics, and I for one can't understand why a weapon that can't even burst fire would use the Automatics skill.

2: Why oh why was it decided that the compiled tables at the end would be sorted by manufacturer, instead of weapon category? This makes the tables basically useless, since I have to scan back through the book to find out what's a light pistol, heavy pistol, smg, shotgun, assault rifle, etc etc.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Mäx on (16:50:49/07-23-12)
1: Why is there an SA battle rifle? I know there are people who think Battle Rifles should use Longarms instead of Automatics, and I for one can't understand why a weapon that can't even burst fire would use the Automatics skill.
Why do you know all of a sudden have a problem with this, when we have had one since the start.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Wakshaani on (22:27:36/07-24-12)
See, I don't even think Battle RIfles should exist, but, I'm a negative Nancy on this one.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: JustADude on (22:35:25/07-24-12)
See, I don't even think Battle RIfles should exist, but, I'm a negative Nancy on this one.

They should, because they exist "for realsies." The problem is that, in SR4 terms, a Battle Rifle is essentially a Sports Rifles that has a bigger ammo capacity and has been modded for Burst Fire.

Battle Rifles should have gone in the Longarms skill, same way burst-fire Heavy Pistols and Light Pistols go in the Pistols skill.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (01:15:45/07-25-12)
I know a lot of folks that use Battle Rifles as their Moose Rifles.

Of course, those are bolt action, and were Battle Rifles in WWI/WWII/Korea...  ;D
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Critias on (02:25:42/07-25-12)
See, I don't even think Battle RIfles should exist, but, I'm a negative Nancy on this one.

They should, because they exist "for realsies." The problem is that, in SR4 terms, a Battle Rifle is essentially a Sports Rifles that has a bigger ammo capacity and has been modded for Burst Fire.

Battle Rifles should have gone in the Longarms skill, same way burst-fire Heavy Pistols and Light Pistols go in the Pistols skill.
The problem with that argument -- and, in my opinion the problem with introducing them at all -- is that some of those "for realsies" battle rifles from real life had already been statted up (in 1989) as Assault Rifles.  They were the good-damage Assault Rifles, but they were AR's all the same.  You just had to kind of shrug and handwave it away, or (as a buddy did in SR3) stat up your own custom monstrosities and pretend they were general-issue.

Wedging in Battle Rifles after the fact, not just several years into SR4, but 20+ years into the game as a whole, just highlights how abstract (and a little silly) the weapon categories are, because you try to fit in a weird one that's not only somewhere between two of them...but is, well, better than either (more damage and range than Assault Rifles, better rate of fire and recoil than Sport Rifles).

It was a hornet's nest that I don't think needed to get poked, in my humble opinion.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: JustADude on (03:00:24/07-25-12)
See, I don't even think Battle RIfles should exist, but, I'm a negative Nancy on this one.

They should, because they exist "for realsies." The problem is that, in SR4 terms, a Battle Rifle is essentially a Sports Rifles that has a bigger ammo capacity and has been modded for Burst Fire.

Battle Rifles should have gone in the Longarms skill, same way burst-fire Heavy Pistols and Light Pistols go in the Pistols skill.
The problem with that argument -- and, in my opinion the problem with introducing them at all -- is that some of those "for realsies" battle rifles from real life had already been statted up (in 1989) as Assault Rifles.  They were the good-damage Assault Rifles, but they were AR's all the same.  You just had to kind of shrug and handwave it away, or (as a buddy did in SR3) stat up your own custom monstrosities and pretend they were general-issue.

Wedging in Battle Rifles after the fact, not just several years into SR4, but 20+ years into the game as a whole, just highlights how abstract (and a little silly) the weapon categories are, because you try to fit in a weird one that's not only somewhere between two of them...but is, well, better than either (more damage and range than Assault Rifles, better rate of fire and recoil than Sport Rifles).

It was a hornet's nest that I don't think needed to get poked, in my humble opinion.

Well, when you put it like that, I can't help but agree.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Sichr on (05:08:16/07-25-12)
+1.
My team would be eager for better firepower, well they maintain it by modifying existing weapons, BattleRiffles are viewed as unnecesary piece of crap.
Like...yeah, it is science fiction. So lets create some futuristic weapons...by adding more effective propelant...

Sounds like lack of crativity also...
Instead of exploiting new ways...Laser, Plasma weapons, Elecromagnetic weapons, Rail guns, Nanotechnologic warfare and Magicaly augmented "Manatech" weapons etc, even milspec weapons are still based on firing pieces of lead. I know, even in Battletech machineguns are still part of the game, well...the most advanced weapon system here is nothing but SA cannon with built-in radio. Not even fluff about its compatibility with Military grade armors, about possible acessories that make it work beter on the battlefield, standard modifications, possible ammunition selection. Also more versatile weapons, nice try made with Steyr AUG CSL (if I remember correctly) and HK XM30 (well it was nice piece of gear but its versatility was not so aparent due to firearms rules)...but that was all. Not even HK XM 307/312, todays advanced heavy weapon system, didnt made it to any source book :(

Also...they created guided ammo for guns. I can see that the first application of such priciples would be Minigrenades and High caliber rounds, possibly that Assault cannon. But it seems that the light ammo was created this way at first. Maybe developers do like challenge, because IMO it is much easier to add some technological devices and upgrades to 40mm grenade, than to 0,22 bullet.

Well, I dont think anyone from CGL would really care for this call. As far as they get their money for what they are oferring, there is no need for inovations (or correcting flaws and glitches a few NERDS had pointed out)
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Critias on (05:21:05/07-25-12)
Well, I dont think anyone from CGL would really care for this call. As far as they get their money for what they are oferring, there is no need for inovations (or correcting flaws and glitches a few NERDS had pointed out)
You know, you were doing pretty well until you decided to close this post like you did. 
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Sichr on (05:55:28/07-25-12)
Well, its not trolling. Just expression of disapointement that is growing inside for some time. Reprints missing Erratta. Some major changes for character creation allowed for HeroLabs, well never made part of rulebooks (1000Karmagen). And sources maintaining material and technological Status-Quo.
I still love this game, and I understand that mistakes happen, well I also work for company that is able to produce 40000 pieces of merchandise per month with less than 5% waste, and when such waste is produced, we are able to remove it from market before it reaches customer most times. Or repaired ASAP with apology. Still, itsindustry, not the publishing business, so maybe QA rules are different a bit.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Critias on (06:36:35/07-25-12)
I imagine the bigger difference you're dealing with is scale.  Scale, and professionalism.

You and the guys you work with work there.  The vast majority of people involved with making Shadowrun products for CGL?  This is a side job for us.  We're professors, or Amish cab drivers, or college students, or programmers, or who knows what else.  We don't get to work on Shadowrun forty hours a week.  We squeeze Shadowrun in around the edges of our real lives, between being husbands and fathers and teachers. 

Also, we don't have a single, unified, mental image.  Shadowrun's got a lot of canon, and a look at any gaming forum, anywhere, will show you just how many different ways people can interpret that canon.  I mean, hell, how many threads here or on Dumpshock have flamed out over someone interpreting a line of text one way, and someone else interpreting that same line of text another?  Disagreements happen.  There's no Bible for this that we've got secret access to.  We're all different people, working part time, trying to hammer out the details of a world that we've all got our own ideas about.

But, most importantly?  We don't really work together when we do work.  I live in Texas, Bull lives in Ohio, our nominal boss, Jason Hardy, lives in Chicago (I think?).  Hell, Patrick and I live in the same state, but that state is Texas, so we're actually about four hundred miles away from each other.  We all see each other maybe two or three times a year, at GenCon or Origins or something.  So in addition to our SR writing not being what most of us do full time, in addition to all of us having our own ideas of what the game and the game world look like (versus what they SHOULD look like), all of us do so in our own little bubbles, sharing ideas as much as we can (via text);  we have an email group and a bunch of other stuff, sure, but we're not all sitting in cubicles next to each other, having face-to-face meetings once a week to talk things over.

Now -- here's the important part -- I don't say all this to make excuses for us.  I'm explaining part of why I think the mistakes get made, and how they can slip through the process, but please believe me, I'm not making excuses.  I'm not saying those mistakes are okay.  I'm saying how I believe the problems arise, but I'm not saying these problems are okay.  Believe me, no one is more aware than we are that fans pay money for these books.  We have all paid money for books.  We're all gamers.  We all love Shadowrun.  We all bought Shadowrun books before we started writing for them, and we all still buy Shadowrun books now (I just placed an order at my FLGS this afternoon, in fact).  We know that we're making a product people pay money for, and we know mistakes get through, and no one kicks us -- no one -- as hard as we kick ourselves. 

I joked with CanRay over on DS when he first smacked his forehead, realizing he'd forgotten something for Shadowrun 2050, and as he scrambled to try and write some errata for it.  "Now you're in the club," I said.  No one is as hard on us as we are, on ourselves.  Writing his own e-book that sold pretty well on drivethrurpg.com didn't make him a veteran, was my implication.  Fucking up and trying to fix it?  That's when I felt like an industry professional.  Not when I got lucky and did well, but when I screwed up and did everything I could to fix it.  My name is on the books I write, and I take that very seriously.

And that's what makes a comment like yours suck so bad, Sichr.  Not the body of the post, no.  I was in this very thread with everyone else, just chatting, bullshitting, sharing my (very critical) thoughts on the game, same as everyone else.  And then I read your post, and I thought there were some cool ideas there.  The reason I think most of those things (the higher-tech stuff) aren't in the game, to be honest?  Because they make it too sci-fi, and not cyberpunk enough.  They move the tech level up a little too far, maybe, so lots of us have shied away from it. 

But then you closed your post like you did.  You said no one from CGL cares what you're saying (despite the fact that you know full well this forum, and plenty of other gaming forums, are crawling with us).  You said as long as we get our money we don't care (which is even funnier when one considers how very little most of us get paid).  You said none of us want to correct the flaws or glitches, or innovate (when several of us have gone out of our way to write up our own errata, to frantically try and correct mistakes that have made it through).  You put words in our mouths, and said that we called our fans nerds instead of ever listening to them.  And, frankly, fuck that. 

When you say things about everyone at CGL, you're talking about a whole lot of people.  People from all over the world, from all sorts of economic backgrounds, with all different levels of education and training and professionalism and experience.  And when you lump us all together at all that's bad enough, but when you lump us all together in order to say some pretty despicable stuff, like you did?  Stuff that says we're (somehow) all in this just to take money from our fans that we all secretly hate, and that none of us really care about the books we write, and how we don't listen at all to what our fans have to say?  That's pretty shitty, and fantastically wrong.

If you want to make the Shadowrun writers stop coming to a forum, and make us hate the fans, and make us want to tune out all criticism, and make us stop listening to fan opinions?  Comments like that, my friend, are the perfect way to do it.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: PeterSmith on (09:40:54/07-25-12)
If you want to make the Shadowrun writers stop coming to a forum, and make us hate the fans, and make us want to tune out all criticism, and make us stop listening to fan opinions?  Comments like that, my friend, are the perfect way to do it.

There's a lot of truth in this. BattleTech lost a helluva line developer because he got tired of years of listening to the same ignorant shit from the same ignorant fans.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Sichr on (10:38:29/07-25-12)
Well, I dont think anyone from CGL would really care for this call. As far as they get their money for what they are oferring, there is no need for inovations (or correcting flaws and glitches a few NERDS had pointed out)

Well, it seems Ive been wrong, exaggeratedly bitter and there ARE people in CGL who care. I only hope that it is majority of those people who are sweating blood for Shadowrun, and that it also stands for people on the top of the food chain. To such people I apologize.

BTW any news on this?
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=5245.msg83091#msg83091
Single link to comment would be more than enought. Because, you know, you dont have to be Horizon to know that some things are good for PR.

...
And that's what makes a comment like yours suck so bad, Sichr.  Not the body of the post, no.  I was in this very thread with everyone else, just chatting, bullshitting, sharing my (very critical) thoughts on the game, same as everyone else.  And then I read your post, and I thought there were some cool ideas there.  The reason I think most of those things (the higher-tech stuff) aren't in the game, to be honest?  Because they make it too sci-fi, and not cyberpunk enough.  They move the tech level up a little too far, maybe, so lots of us have shied away from it. 

From your post this is about the only thing I would like to ague, since the rest seem to be true and there is no further need to beat the dead horse.
We have outer space stations. Orbital bank. Orbital corporate court. LAV main battletanks. WWWifi. Genetic modifications. We have SciFi right now.
For that cyberpunk part...well, we no more have deckers, but thats the way it is and it reflects advancement of reality. Well I recall Schismatrix. Neuromancer. System Shock. Terminator. and sooo many other books, games, movies and shows. Most of those includes technological tools and elements coparable at least, but oftenly more advanced. But you are right that it may be a question of individual taste, and such questions are rarely answered the way that makes everyone happy.

If you want to make the Shadowrun writers stop coming to a forum, and make us hate the fans, and make us want to tune out all criticism, and make us stop listening to fan opinions?  Comments like that, my friend, are the perfect way to do it.

There's a lot of truth in this. BattleTech lost a helluva line developer because he got tired of years of listening to the same ignorant shit from the same ignorant fans.

On the other side, I dont see that calling complaining customer "Ignorant" is a step to the right direction...I may had used inaproriate language or arguments, but that doesnt render that post completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: PeterSmith on (11:29:08/07-25-12)
On the other side, I dont see that calling complaining customer "Ignorant" is a step to the right direction...I may had used inaproriate language or arguments, but that doesnt render that post completely irrelevant.

Sichr, if you took my post as calling you ignorant, don't. If I thought you were ignorant, I would say it to your face. Or as face-to-face as a message board can be. With the three points you mentioned (reprints without errata rolled in, undocumented changes to HL, status quo) two of them bother me too. I know CGL is very able to roll errata into reprints, three of my four versions of Tactical Operations have errata rolled in. The changes that are showing up in Hero Labs? They should be documented and posted here so that everybody at the table is on the same page.

Arguing about status quo, on the other hand, is like arguing about story direction. You've swerved well into the world of opinion. In the case of status quo, it's the worst thing to get to. To have an unchanging story means you're not developing anything new. Significant change will never happen, which will lead to stagnation, which will end up with a dead game system.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: All4BigGuns on (11:56:21/07-25-12)
Well, I dont think anyone from CGL would really care for this call. As far as they get their money for what they are oferring, there is no need for inovations (or correcting flaws and glitches a few NERDS had pointed out)

Well, it seems Ive been wrong, exaggeratedly bitter and there ARE people in CGL who care. I only hope that it is majority of those people who are sweating blood for Shadowrun, and that it also stands for people on the top of the food chain. To such people I apologize.

BTW any news on this?
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=5245.msg83091#msg83091
Single link to comment would be more than enought. Because, you know, you dont have to be Horizon to know that some things are good for PR.

...
And that's what makes a comment like yours suck so bad, Sichr.  Not the body of the post, no.  I was in this very thread with everyone else, just chatting, bullshitting, sharing my (very critical) thoughts on the game, same as everyone else.  And then I read your post, and I thought there were some cool ideas there.  The reason I think most of those things (the higher-tech stuff) aren't in the game, to be honest?  Because they make it too sci-fi, and not cyberpunk enough.  They move the tech level up a little too far, maybe, so lots of us have shied away from it. 

From your post this is about the only thing I would like to ague, since the rest seem to be true and there is no further need to beat the dead horse.
We have outer space stations. Orbital bank. Orbital corporate court. LAV main battletanks. WWWifi. Genetic modifications. We have SciFi right now.
For that cyberpunk part...well, we no more have deckers, but thats the way it is and it reflects advancement of reality. Well I recall Schismatrix. Neuromancer. System Shock. Terminator. and sooo many other books, games, movies and shows. Most of those includes technological tools and elements coparable at least, but oftenly more advanced. But you are right that it may be a question of individual taste, and such questions are rarely answered the way that makes everyone happy.

If you want to make the Shadowrun writers stop coming to a forum, and make us hate the fans, and make us want to tune out all criticism, and make us stop listening to fan opinions?  Comments like that, my friend, are the perfect way to do it.

There's a lot of truth in this. BattleTech lost a helluva line developer because he got tired of years of listening to the same ignorant shit from the same ignorant fans.

On the other side, I dont see that calling complaining customer "Ignorant" is a step to the right direction...I may had used inaproriate language or arguments, but that doesnt render that post completely irrelevant.

Well, after your post, he clarified that he wasn't calling =you= ignorant, but he is right. A lot of times when someone goes from 'random Joe on the street' to 'customer' their I.Q. seems to drop like 50 points--especially noticeable when someone steps up to a fast-food order counter.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Sichr on (12:29:46/07-25-12)
On the other side, I dont see that calling complaining customer "Ignorant" is a step to the right direction...I may had used inaproriate language or arguments, but that doesnt render that post completely irrelevant.

Sichr, if you took my post as calling you ignorant, don't. If I thought you were ignorant, I would say it to your face. Or as face-to-face as a message board can be. With the three points you mentioned (reprints without errata rolled in, undocumented changes to HL, status quo) two of them bother me too. I know CGL is very able to roll errata into reprints, three of my four versions of Tactical Operations have errata rolled in. The changes that are showing up in Hero Labs? They should be documented and posted here so that everybody at the table is on the same page.

Arguing about status quo, on the other hand, is like arguing about story direction. You've swerved well into the world of opinion. In the case of status quo, it's the worst thing to get to. To have an unchanging story means you're not developing anything new. Significant change will never happen, which will lead to stagnation, which will end up with a dead game system.

OK. I just wanted to accent that there are other things in my post we can talk about, not just the last paragraph.
About Status quo, I didnt mean it as a Story status quo. Story is moving forward pretty good and every new book has something new to offer, creating marvelously rich setting for story driven GMs and Players. I was talking about technological status quo...the fact that in the world of weapons shadowrun is surprisingly similar to current state of technology...and the SR world is 50 years in the future, where even spirits and Artifical inteligencies of some sort are helping designers and engineers to create new tools of destruction and killing. Not just design developement, as we can see it in books, is pretty traditional and conservative. So, IMO it would be nice to step out of box with that and instead of inventing Battle riffles try to invent something really new. As Ive seen in other threads, some people are considering DV/AP values of most weapons quite ridiculosly underpowered. Well, I dont have problem with that...its part of the game and balance. On the other side, there is the fact that when you look at all those guns, they are pretty similar...Id say cloned almost. They offer only little of anything like competitive advantage on the market...in fact the only way how weapon producers can win the customer is to get  weapons loaded truck in fromt of his house  and bring him in so he can buy the riffle or a gun. Because otherwise it is all he same:
"I want a handgun."
"Take this"
"Some parameters"
 "OK. it has between about 16 rounds in a clip. Light recoil. Moderate stopping power. Unable to pierce personal armor."
"OK and what about this one?"
"Oh. That has between about 16 rounds in a clip. Light recoil. Moderate stopping power. Unable to pierce personal armor."
"And that one?"
"Oh. That has between about 16 rounds in a clip. Light recoil. Moderate stopping power. Unable to pierce personal armor."
"Anything special?"
"Oh yes. All those gun have smartgun. Interrested?"

...
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: PeterSmith on (14:01:50/07-25-12)
I was talking about technological status quo...the fact that in the world of weapons shadowrun is surprisingly similar to current state of technology...and the SR world is 50 years in the future...

Ehh...I wouldn't put too much stock in the fifty year mark. Next year marks fifty years since the US Air Force adopted the M-16. The US Army is moving to the M-4, which is a variant on the M-16.

On the other side, there is the fact that when you look at all those guns, they are pretty similar...Id say cloned almost. They offer only little of anything like competitive advantage on the market...in fact the only way how weapon producers can win the customer is to get  weapons loaded truck in fromt of his house  and bring him in so he can buy the riffle or a gun. Because otherwise it is all he same...

Take a look at the Light Pistols in Shadowrun. They're almost all 4P B damage. Heavy Pistols move to 5P B-1. Each class of weapon has the same range bands. It really comes down to brand loyalty in Shadowrun, which is something that fits with the game.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: All4BigGuns on (14:12:41/07-25-12)
I will admit that I think that the heavy weapons need a serious damage boost. As-is, there's no reason to go for a light, medium or heavy machine gun over an assault or battle rifle.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Tsuzua on (14:48:40/07-25-12)
There's actually some noticeable differences between guns in the same category.  The differences that matter are innate recoil compensation (usually fluffed as chamber systems) that stack with all other forms of recoil compensation, useful modifications or special abilities that you can't normally add such as the foregrip of the MP9 or the -0/-1 recoil of the Fubuki, and expensive/difficult modifications built-in such as Ceramic/Plasteel Components 3 included in the Elan. 
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: PeterSmith on (15:02:15/07-25-12)
There's actually some noticeable differences between guns in the same category.

It depends on how much your character cares about them.

If I'm a Sam or a PhysAd then probably care about the details of the specific handguns. If I'm a mage, I might ask the guy I bought it from to put a note on there to remind me which way to point at the enemy.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (15:05:10/07-25-12)
I care about how they look, which the Gun Haven Heaven books are great for!

...

What, I like my Gear Porn!
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: All4BigGuns on (15:07:24/07-25-12)
I care about how they look, which the Gun Haven Heaven books are great for!

...

What, I like my Gear Porn!

Agreed. We need more images of more of the weapons and armors and vehicles.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: PeterSmith on (15:07:57/07-25-12)
I will admit that I think that the heavy weapons need a serious damage boost. As-is, there's no reason to go for a light, medium or heavy machine gun over an assault or battle rifle.

I can think of a reason: lack of access.

Player: "I want to pick up a Ultimax 150."
Armorer: "Sorry man, I don't have any of those. I have an Ultimax MMG ready to go right now, or I can get you an 150 if you don't mind waiting a month."
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: PeterSmith on (15:08:31/07-25-12)
I care about how they look, which the Gun Haven Heaven books are great for!

...

What, I like my Gear Porn!

Who doesn't?
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Sichr on (16:43:06/07-25-12)
I will admit that I think that the heavy weapons need a serious damage boost. As-is, there's no reason to go for a light, medium or heavy machine gun over an assault or battle rifle.

I can think of a reason: lack of access.

Player: "I want to pick up a Ultimax 150."
Armorer: "Sorry man, I don't have any of those. I have an Ultimax MMG ready to go right now, or I can get you an 150 if you don't mind waiting a month."

Well this changes when you are trying to get:
 
Ultimax + 100 rounds of belted ammo (13F) X Battle riffle with 1 clip of HP rounds...(20F)
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Sichr on (16:47:03/07-25-12)
...
Well, after your post, he clarified that he wasn't calling =you= ignorant, but he is right. A lot of times when someone goes from 'random Joe on the street' to 'customer' their I.Q. seems to drop like 50 points--especially noticeable when someone steps up to a fast-food order counter.

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eREiQhBDIk
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Carmody on (07:54:45/08-12-12)
I have not read the whole discussion, but I agree that all weapons of any given category seem to be copy-paste.
However this is not very surprising given that:
   - the dissimulation value has been removed (one less option to differentiate two weapons)
   - more important to me: the amount of modifications that can be done afterward on weapons makes them very similar: this one does not have a smartgun, I'll add it later. This one has a better recoil compensation, I can add the same on this other one. Built-in modifications could be a very good and easy way to create some diversity among weapons, but this ability is killed by the modifications rules.
OK for the ones that are trying to find the limits with maximum possible optimisation, then the base package makes some sort of difference, but it is even worse: there is almost 1 single best weapon per category :(

I do not say that modifications shall be forbidden, but that they are part of the explanation why all weapons look alike.
my two cents
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Wakshaani on (00:44:07/08-13-12)
I care about how they look, which the Gun Haven Heaven books are great for!

...

What, I like my Gear Porn!

Agreed. We need more images of more of the weapons and armors and vehicles.

I believe that the Gun Deck cards at GenCon are something along this line.

I *think*.

I've not seen them, mind, but in my head, they'd have the name and art on one side, the game data on the back. Make 'em darn useful *and* darn pretty.
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Bull on (01:03:27/08-13-12)
Wak:  I've seen them.  And that's pretty much exactly what they are.  the only way they'd be cooler is if they doubled as a deck of Playing Cards. :)
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Wakshaani on (03:25:45/08-13-12)
Color me jealous, then!

And there's some for vehicles as well?

Dude.

*dude*
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: hobgoblin on (05:56:07/08-13-12)
I have not read the whole discussion, but I agree that all weapons of any given category seem to be copy-paste.
However this is not very surprising given that:
   - the dissimulation value has been removed (one less option to differentiate two weapons)
   - more important to me: the amount of modifications that can be done afterward on weapons makes them very similar: this one does not have a smartgun, I'll add it later. This one has a better recoil compensation, I can add the same on this other one. Built-in modifications could be a very good and easy way to create some diversity among weapons, but this ability is killed by the modifications rules.
OK for the ones that are trying to find the limits with maximum possible optimisation, then the base package makes some sort of difference, but it is even worse: there is almost 1 single best weapon per category :(

I do not say that modifications shall be forbidden, but that they are part of the explanation why all weapons look alike.
my two cents
And this is different from real life how?
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: CanRay on (09:12:59/08-13-12)
Wak:  I've seen them.  And that's pretty much exactly what they are.  the only way they'd be cooler is if they doubled as a deck of Playing Cards. :)
I keep wanting to have my future told using my Deadlands deck, but I'm afraid of what I'll awaken if I try.  ;D
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: Carmody on (10:15:12/08-13-12)
And this is different from real life how?

I don't know. I have zero knowledge in weapon-smith and have no clue about what changes a decent weapon-smith can make on a weapon.
How easy/hard it is to turn a revolver to FA mode, how easy/hard it is to reduce the barrel of a submachine gun (say an UZI)... I guess in those cases it is pretty hard but I may be proven wrong!

But, are there that many differences between current weapons of the same category? I mean, differences that can be expressed in SR4 statistics or modifications.
And in case realistic aspect opposes to interesting gameplay, which one should prevail?

PS: these are really open questions, I do not try to promote any answer :)
Title: Re: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!
Post by: hobgoblin on (10:25:40/08-13-12)
Wak:  I've seen them.  And that's pretty much exactly what they are.  the only way they'd be cooler is if they doubled as a deck of Playing Cards. :)
I keep wanting to have my future told using my Deadlands deck, but I'm afraid of what I'll awaken if I try.  ;D
Heh, tempting the great huckster?