Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Inconnu on <03-19-12/1302:08>
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You know how explosive rounds just shatter? Now i have a idea for a bullet that goes boom.
Gory Rounds( :o )
Cost-200/10
Damage- -2/2p
Ap+1
Special- Uses Chunky Salsa. If armor is pierced, deal 10p with -20 ap(The bullet is hitting you from INSIDE... Armor won't do jack shit) IF armor is not pierced, dgrade armor anyway and deal 2p with 1/2 -4 I armor.
Availibility- 12F
Explosive Dagger-
Cost-1000
Damage-Str/2
Ap+1
See gory rounds, except that if armor is not pierced, degrade 2 times, and if it is, degrade once and deal 20p. Good for fighting trolls.
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I think these are a bit much.
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exceedingly so
if its 20P thats llike a grenade going of inside of you, actually more so.
i think the secondary damage idea like in chemical resist tests and 4P at the most cause if its 20P with a dagger, the guy might die but ur losing an arm
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Isn't there a nanite that shreds you on the inside that does that?
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Chunky salsa. Chunky salsa.
That is, 10 or 20 p is understating the case.
Also, the daggger is intended to be thrown, but o figure that fanatics might walk right up to you and plant it in your gut.
Because really, with chunky salsa, the bullet wave from the rounds are only going maybe an inch.
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Chunky salsa. Chunky salsa.
That is, 10 or 20 p is understating the case.
Yes, we know.
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You can reply Chunky Salsa all you like, those things are horribly, horribly broken.
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Depends on your definition of broken.
On the other hand, we can just say it tears off the limb it hits and leave it at that.....
My definition of broken is somthing that ignores the laws of physics. Or reality. Ignoring magic for the moment.
We can balance these by saying that overuse causes notoriety.
Also, you'll have a hard time explaining the fact that your armor jacket is covered with blood...
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Depends on your definition of broken.
On the other hand, we can just say it tears off the limb it hits and leave it at that.....
My definition of broken is somthing that ignores the laws of physics. Or reality. Ignoring magic for the moment.
We can balance these by saying that overuse causes notoriety.
Also, you'll have a hard time explaining the fact that your armor jacket is covered with blood...
No. You cannot balance these through any means. They are tremendously overpowered, and absurdly so.
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Depends on your definition of broken.
One shot instant kill if it gets through your armor and if it doesn't it is just one shot horrible maiming plus your armor is in ruins is pretty much the definition of broken. This is like giving Disintegrate to a first level sorcerer in D&D, and letting them do it at will.
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Realistic or not, it doesn't seem fun.
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Its plenty realistic, but so is making characters take poop breaks, and that's not fun either (though I have afflicted a char with allergies and no toilet paper)
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Make it so that the moment you use it, you get the entire UCAS on your butt to tell you what the :-X you did?
Whatev, eh?
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Make it so that the moment you use it, you get the entire UCAS on your butt to tell you what the :-X you did?
Whatev, eh?
Or, alternately, bullets this ridiculously overpowered could just not exist (much less fall into the hands of shadowrunners) in the first place.
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Look, this is a severe case of realism vs. balance. IF a important character is hit with this, MAKE THEM USE :-X ing EDGE.
Also, this ammo cannot be silenced, and quite honestly, any time it gets through ANY serious armor, if you used normal bullets they'd have insta-died.
Edit- Want a example? Ok. Barret 121. 1 net hit. Armor of 14. 1 net hit. Bullet gets thru and insta-kills non-trolls.
Same gun. Armor 12. 1 net hit. Bullet hits armor and stays there. Deals 2 p.
Clearly the normal gun is superior against most armored targets.
On the other hand, we could say that a bullet is too small to include a detonator, and you must include a flamethrower....
Edited edit- Also, the cost is for materials. Bullets like this are required to be home brew and are exotic.
You happy?
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Look, this is a severe case of realism vs. balance. IF a important character is hit with this, MAKE THEM USE :-X ing EDGE.
Also, this ammo cannot be silenced, and quite honestly, any time it gets through ANY serious armor, if you used normal bullets they'd have insta-died.
What? No, it's not a case of realism vs. balance. Where does such ammunition exist in the real world? What's realistic about it? Find me a round this explosive that is still an ammunition type (IE, can be loaded into a Hold Out, a Light Pistol, etc), instead of simply being the custom ammo of a high-caliber weapon (like 20mm explosive rounds). What does this ammunition do "realistically" that existing explosive ammo, or EX, does not?
It's a case of the ammunition being unrealistic and imbalancing. Why would anyone ever, shoot any other lethal ammo (especially since these "realistic" rounds have the same availability of EX and only cost double what flechette rounds do)?
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I'm normally very hesitant to use the term 'broken', as I think it is bandied about far too much (in most cases referring to things that really aren't), but in this case, I have to agree that these pieces of gear are horribly so. There is no need for things like this, and crying 'realism' on it (though I'm in doubt as to whether these would be) simply does not excuse the ridiculousness of them.
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Ok, well first, now it needs to be custom made, and availibility is how easy it is to get it, and what the law does if it finds it. A garrote is "only" 0F.
Also, on a glitch your gun becomes a frag grenade...
You don't WANT to know what happens on a CRIT glitch...
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Also, there is the "minor" fact that explosive rounds only do +1, which is HORRIBLY unbalanced.
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Also, there is the "minor" fact that explosive rounds only do +1, which is HORRIBLY unbalanced.
You consider +1 DV unbalanced, but you don't think these ridiculous rounds and daggers are borked all to hell? :o :o
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Ok, well first, now it needs to be custom made, and availibility is how easy it is to get it, and what the law does if it finds it. A garrote is "only" 0F.
Also, on a glitch your gun becomes a frag grenade...
You don't WANT to know what happens on a CRIT glitch...
You can keep on backpedaling and trying to think of minor inconveniences to keep throwing in the way (now it has to be custom made, now it does different stuff on a glitch, now the law really cracks down on you about it, and on and on and on), or you can just accept that these things are overpowered.
I mean, everyone who has been bothered to reply to you is saying "Hey, yeah, these things are overpowered," and instead of seeming to listen, at all, you just keep making excuses.
Also, there is the "minor" fact that explosive rounds only do +1, which is HORRIBLY unbalanced.
What? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here, or why you're using quotation marks there, or what's even going on.
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Explosive rounds shatter.
Ex-Explosive rounds penetrate and shatter.
How are these different, description wise, from EX-Explosive when they just penetrate and shatter but do ridiculously more damage. Screw calling them Gorey rounds or Chunky Salsa rounds, these are flat out nuke rounds that cause miniature mushroom clouds to rise from the ashes of your corpse. Might as well add Lethal Radiation Poisoning to their list of effects for the odd troll that may survive the opening burst from them.
Shadowrun doesn't have a damage system designed for realistic damage simulation. It can be lethal (although the current edition is the least lethal of the bunch), it can be gritty, but it isn't in any way realistic. Trying to force it to be realistic is like trying to force a walrus into a tutu. Completely unnecessary. You can find other, more willing things to put a tutu on (translation: there are systems for realistic damage, I suggest Deadlands which isn't too hard to port over to SR if you really want).
What? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here, or why you're using quotation marks there, or what's even going on.
I think he was aiming for sarcasm which is hard to do in text. He thinks explosive rounds should do more I believe.
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Correct.
i mean, there is the "minor" fact that one or two of the shattered fragments may travel trough your bloodstream, which alone is worth onother point of dv....
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I don't think quotation marks mean what you think quotation marks mean. It's making it very difficult to make sense of you, or what you're trying to say, or -- quotation marks aside -- what your point was in posting this thread (since you clearly don't seem interested in listening to what people have to say about your gear ideas).
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This thread reeks of troll.
More on topic: Horrendously overpowered, ridiculous concept. Unbalanced, unrealistic and quite simply unfun. (Yes, I made up the word.)
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Yeah, I'm done with this. Let's see how well the Ignore List works.
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You know how explosive rounds just shatter? Now i have a idea for a bullet that goes boom.
In point of fact, I know all about bullets that shatter and shells that go boom. I left the service a while ago, but I was a Gunner's Mate 2nd Class in the United States Coast Guard. Oh sure, I didn't get to play with the really big toys that the Navy gets or the Army has, but I know my way around smallarms well enough. Here in the real world, we don't have bullets that explode, anything big enough to contain explosives is going to be an artillery shell. I won't bore you with such pesky things like physics but if you want a tiny object like a bullet to penetrate something as dense as a human body, it needs a given degree of force. That means density and speed. That means no hollow for explosives
I've also bee playing Shadowrun for twenty-odd years, so I know its a science-fiction game, and I know how to read the book. "Explosive rounds are solid slugs designed to fragment and explode on impact." (SR4A, p.323; emphasis added.) I have no clue how that works, but its a scifi universe with flying cars, colonies on Mars, and supercomputers I can install in my eyeballs.
If you want ammunition that is more than "rounds just shatter," it is right there for you on p.323: Garden varetiy Explosive Rounds, which fragment and explode or their bigger, badder cousins the EX Explosive Rounds which do the same thing, only moreso.
The concept behind your super-bullet has already been addressed by the existing Explosive Rounds. The special rules for your super-bullet are just gross overkill, ignore most principals of SR's game design, and... To be blunt, your attitude in the face of criticism sucks.
If you think your super-bullet has a place in the game, fine, use `em. I beleive that anythign that lets a GM and his players have fun is kosher... But I don't want your super-bullets at my table. To be blunt, again, based on your attitude I don't think I want you at my table. Enjoy the game, have fun, but please... learn how to respond to criticism before you make another post looking for feedback.
Edit: Fixed an unclosed tag.
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Isn't this just an airtimed microgrenade?
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That's it. I'm sick of all this "EX Bullets only being +1 DV" bullshit that's going on in the SR4A system right now. EX Bullets deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine EX bullet in Detroit for 2,400,000 nuyen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even explode slabs of solid steel with my Ex Bullet.
Automatic bullet presses spend years working on a single bullet and robots fill it with best explosives known to mankind.
EX Bullets are thrice as powerful as normal bullets and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a normal bullet can pierce, a EX Bullet can pierce through better. I'm pretty sure a Ex Bullet could easily bisect a Juggernaut though hydrostatic shock alone.
Ever wonder why Lofwyr never bothered conquering UCAS? That's right, he was too scared to fight the disciplined Ares Firewatch teams and their EX Bullets of destruction. Even in shutdown of the Universal Brotherhood, corporate soldiers targeted the insect spirits with the EX Bullets first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? EX Bullets are simply the best bullets that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the SR4A system. Here is the stat block I propose for EX Bullets:
Cost-200/10
Damage- -2/2p
Ap+1
Special- Uses Chunky Salsa. If armor is pierced, deal 10p with -20 ap(The bullet is hitting you from INSIDE... Armor won't do jack shit) IF armor is not pierced, dgrade armor anyway and deal 2p with 1/2 -4 I armor.
Availibility- 12F
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of EX Bullets in the fluff, don't you think?
tl;dr = EX Bullets need to do more damage in SR4A, see my new stat block.
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I fired EX rounds once and Chuck Norris ran away!
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This is how the ammo looks like
http://aneverydaything.typepad.com/.a/6a014e8b59d4ac970d0154360db3f7970c-800wi
;)
and that
http://illadelstylez.com/blog/2011/08/07/18-round-revolver-got-damn/
is just the right gun for this kind of ammo/player
or rather like this
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SMzDkTpxtro/S3r8HvuSMOI/AAAAAAAABSM/dDgWe2MbkE0/s400/biggest-gun.jpg
with a silent Dance
Medicineman
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lol, last couple of posts made this thread a whole lot better.
That second one would be a pretty darned cool mod for the Ruger Super Warhawk... but it would probably end up being as big as the last one.
"But how did those guards know I was carrying a weapon?! I had it in a concealed holster!"
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I fired EX rounds once and Chuck Norris ran away!
He didn't run away, he was running towards you the long way around the planet. ;D
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EX rounds are made of the new compound Norrisite. One gram will destroy an entire building.
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He's not a troll -- at least not intentionally. He's my son, and he asks me these types of questions all day & night. Sometimes his ideas are good (i.e. need minor tweaking). Sometimes his ideas are ridiculous (read: completely unworkable).
So here's the type of conversation I might have with my son on this:
A bullet is already explosive. There's a measured shaped charge in the bullet casing that when smacked by the gun's hammer causes a small explosion IN your gun that propels the bullet out hopefully in the intended direction (which is why there's a barrel to help you aim & why a crit glitch can jam your gun and burn your hand). There are hollow-point bullets, etc. etc. But what type of explosive could you put in the tip of a bullet that wouldn't be set off by the initial explosion in the gun, but would explode on impact? (and who wants to test these new bullets out?)
Are EX & Ex-Ex Rounds the best science has to offer in 2070? Who knows. However, I would never want to put (name your volatile explosive of preference) in the tip of a bullet to try to find out. These types of weapons could theoretically be possible (with much moderating on the proposed effects -- nerfed from what was proposed), however the only people crazy enough to create them and carry them around would be people with a death wish or completely fanatical about what they're going to do with them (i.e. willing to die for their cause). That puts these ideas into Evil Villain and Crazy Fanatical Faction territory i.e. the GM can pull them out and use them as part of The Story whenever they want, but the player won't have them in their own weapon. ("Sorry, they only had 3 of those bullets....")
Assuming your character doesn't have a Will to Die, your character wouldn't be in their bullet lab with the materials needed to make them, and no fixer would source or sell them for fear of someone dropping a few of them and blowing themselves to smithereens. It's a No Go™ even if It Could Be Possible™. It's a fun "what if" moment, an intellectual curiosity, and that's all. And it needs to stop there.
So anyway, folk, sorry for the inconvenience. The Shadowrun system allows you to make characters with build/repair skills, and between that plus Inspired quality plus the Juryrigger quality plus Artisan skill, my son's creativity, he's constantly coming up with these proposals for new gear/items for the game....the game is not made to say "This is the list of Stuff You Can Have™ and that's all that's possible." And that's become my 7-day-a-week headache ;) He's not trying to be a pain -- he's actually thinking of these ideas and thinks they might work, even if not for a character.
p.s. keep the Chuck Norris jokes coming :)
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My apologies, had I known the original poster was a young'un I would have bit my tongue... er, keyboard*.
* Note to Self: Don't try that again, aluminum is bad for your teeth.
But to add one minor quibble, the primer compound in small arms ammunition deflagrates, a fancy way to say "burns really rapidly," it does not detonate... which is a less fancy way to say explode**. Gases from the burning powder pressurize and expand the ammunition's casing, sealing it against the chamber wall. These propellant gases push on the bullet base, and as Newton all taught us, pushes the bullet in the opposite direction. Most of the time, the bang you hear from a firearm is the tiny sonic boom made by the bullet as it goes downrange.
** And yes, there is a difference between "explode" and "detonate," but only other overly technical gun nerds like me are going to care enough to quibble.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM25_CDTE
That's essentially what he's trying to do. Except he's trying to stick it in a pistol... which ain't gonna happen.
Also, explain to him that armor has soft parts and is designed to stop stuff from getting in not out. While armor might contain the blast slightly, it would actually get redirected out the weak spots in the armor. In game, this means that it would damage the protection value of armor, a pre-existing rule governs that.
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Well, there are pistol form-factor minigrenade launchers, like the Armtech MGL-Mini6 if you feel like digging through some old sourcebooks. Not subtle in the least... but, if he really has a craving for salsa.
My freinds and I all came to a gentleman's agreement never to use these things after one of us (who shall live in infamy) fired one inside a cargo elevator we were all inside. :o
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Well, there are pistol form-factor minigrenade launchers, like the Armtech MGL-Mini6 if you feel like digging through some old sourcebooks. Not subtle in the least... but, if he really has a craving for salsa.
My freinds and I all came to a gentleman's agreement never to use these things after one of us (who shall live in infamy) fired one inside a cargo elevator we were all inside. :o
Yeah, he likes the idea of salsa a lot.... so I threw a bit of nasty at the party once -- baddy goon 1 ran by their parked van, pistol-whipped the passenger-side window, followed by baddy goon 2 who ran by and tossed in a flash-bang grenade through the hole (and they kept running). One of the "wired" (actually physadept) NPCs in the van won surprise/init & dove over the front seat to toss it back outside so it just blew glass into the van... Just a tad of "warning" to the PCs that baddies can use nasty tactics right back. Later in the same combat another goon shot out a tire (which led to the PCs using an Air Spirit to re-inflate the tire & maintain air pressure, and a good laugh about the "Noxious breath" power). Baddies don't have to be dumb.
Maria Mercurial had to buy the Underwold 93 troll bouncer a new van, by the time the adventure was through....
So it's no wonder my son's looking for some extra Edge....I keep warning him, though, that if he dreams up things like Triple-X Ex Rounds and exploding throwing knives that the enemy is more likely to have & use them against the party....
Look at it this way: you pull off nastier and nastier stuff, the baddies get wind of it and their higher-ups will hire bigger goons with better gear to take you out. If you keep a low profile and the baddies don't know just how bad you are, they will underestimate you and try to cut corners on their budget by hiring the cheaper goonies. If you're in an arms race with the Mob, the Yakuza, AAA corps, the government, the Policlubs, etc. you're going to lose. You are much better off sticking to what shadowrunners are built for: slipping in under the radar, exploiting weaknesses & tactical advantages of small teams working in the realm of "unnoticables".
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The thing to keep in mind is that there are whole megacorporations throwing hojillions of nuyen into R&D, who would splooge themselves at the idea of stuff like "triple-X explosive rounds" and that sort of thing. If they can figure out a safe, reliable, way to pack that sort of destructive power into a bullet, they will, it probably won't be some Shadowrunner who moonlights by putting a 3 or 4 into Logic and Armorer, or something.
There's no reason not to assume that the current ammunition choices are, more or less, the top-end of what's realistically possible with the tech level in the setting.
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strange enough there are rounds like what he is describing, but they're as big as my forearm and are meant to clear out rooms,
check out future weapons for some seriously badass shit
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There's no reason not to assume that the current ammunition choices are, more or less, the top-end of what's realistically possible with the tech level in the setting.
Especially now that we can work at the Nano-Molecular Level.
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My apologies, had I known the original poster was a young'un I would have bit my tongue... er,
same here ;)
HougH!
Medicineman
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My apologies, had I known the original poster was a young'un I would have bit my tongue... er,
same here ;)
Yeah... damnit, kind of embarrassing.
Anyways, more Chuck Norris jokes!
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Yeah, he likes the idea of salsa a lot.... so I threw a bit of nasty at the party once -- baddy goon 1 ran by their parked van, pistol-whipped the passenger-side window, followed by baddy goon 2 who ran by and tossed in a flash-bang grenade through the hole (and they kept running).
Behold, the Shadowrun (Live Action Roleplaying Edition) of the classic Leeroy Jenkins! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Ttw0Tz7kY&feature=player_embedded) scene. (PG-13 Language)
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On the balance side, it is important to remember that anything a 'runner can get his hand on, his opposition will often be able to get a hundred of, if not more.
So if you really want these ex-ex-ex explosive rounds in the game, be prepared for short campaigns as the player characters get shredded in the first or second mission.
-k
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I'm reminded of players attaching monowhips to rotodrones for some reason.
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I don't think the kid wanted super extra explosive rounds, he wanted to implement the chunky salsa effect by detonating inside the target's armor. But that is fundamentally flawed unless it is a full military suit with seal.
If you're looking for the 'superior' EX type bullet, look into the Californium bullet.
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before my time but one of my bomb disposal instructors talked about back in the day they tried bullets loads with 2 grams of lead azide, or mercury fulminate (about as much that is in a blasting cap) . Unfortunely he said the lead azide worked ok, the mercury fulminate was a little too unstable. Said it blew up in the chamber of the gun after a couple rounds.
That being said Check out the AA-12 with the mini explosive rounds (technical a 12 gauge fin stabilized grenade)
Back to the point these rounds are severely just wrong. Not counting that in shadow run, if you get caught using something like this your gonna spend some quality time with loan star, and a probe named mister hammer, until you give up where you got them.
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I'm reminded of players attaching monowhips to rotodrones for some reason.
Witch makes me ask the question has anyone stated a Manhack drone?