Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Raven Runner on <01-23-12/1217:40>
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So my runner needs a commlink for runs, this is separate from the one that broadcasts my fake SIN. I'm trying to figure out what to get and thinking something with a high firewall would be good, I don't know the tech rules to well, so I'm trying to figure out how to increase my commlinks firewall and all I'm seeing is a table titled program cost and availability, which has the price for system and firewall, both of which seem much more expensive than the stock operating systems in the gear chapter, would this be in place of a stock OS or work like a bonus? And can you have a firewall that is higher than your system or is it limited the way programs are? All in all the rules here seem fuzzy and complex at best.
Can some one explain this for me?
Raven
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I believe the general consensus is that Firewall is part of the Operating System, therefore not limited by System like a standard Program. You will, of course, find people who disagree.
As for the Firewall / System upgrades; there are two ways to go about it.
First; many GMs will (especially at CGen) let you just build a custom commlink and OS "from scratch", simply buying the modules at the ratings you want, to represent either a piece of home-brew kit or some model not listed on the table. This is, in most (but not all) situations, cheaper than buying the listed Commlink + OS options with the same combination of stats.
Second; at any time after you have a Commlink you can replace the stock "module" in any category with another module up to two points higher. It can never go more than 2 points above it's original rating, though.
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I agree with Dude, but am too lazy to link to the other thread where it was discussed extensively.
Under "Matrix attributes" it implies that Firewall runs on the Hardware equally to the System - on its own part of the hardware. After all it is supposed to be a real Firewall, not like some crappy personal firewalls you install on your OS nowadays ;-)
I also prefer custom commlink builts! The upgrade by 2 points rule seems not well-thought-out.
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I also prefer custom commlink builts! The upgrade by 2 points rule seems not well-thought-out.
It makes some sense, if you assume there are bits in a Commlink that aren't considered part of the four Hardware Modules, to which the Modules get attached.
Eventually, when upgrading an existing machine in the real world, you reach a bottleneck where certain components (usually the Motherboard) just can't accept the higher end hardware, or can't make full use of it even if they have the slots/ports to physically accept the device.
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Considering some of the cases I've seen, JustADude has it right!
Power Supply right over the expansion slots, so nothing fits in them. Or over the RAM slots so only one stick fits. :o
Yeah, a custom CommLink case and components are the way to go for a high-end 'Link, but it'll get you noticed. Whereas if you have a iLink from the IBM-A (Industrial Business Machines-Apple Corporation) store, you blend in with all the other trendy Wageslaves that buy what the 'Trid tells them to.
That's why you have multiple 'Links. ;D
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I believe the general consensus is that Firewall is part of the Operating System, therefore not limited by System like a standard Program. You will, of course, find people who disagree.
As for the Firewall / System upgrades; there are two ways to go about it.
First; many GMs will (especially at CGen) let you just build a custom commlink and OS "from scratch", simply buying the modules at the ratings you want, to represent either a piece of home-brew kit or some model not listed on the table. This is, in most (but not all) situations, cheaper than buying the listed Commlink + OS options with the same combination of stats.
Second; at any time after you have a Commlink you can replace the stock "module" in any category with another module up to two points higher. It can never go more than 2 points above it's original rating, though.
Emphasis mine.
Holy drek! I looked up those costs to be sure, but damn. It is cheaper. I did a quick calculation and discovered that doing this to build a custom comm/OS combo 'from scratch' you could get a device equivalent to a Battle Buddy Basic from War! for half the price. Maybe I'll start doing that. *goes to see if Chummer has a 'custom comm link' option like the 'custom OS' option*
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Of course, $10,000 hammers, remember?
Typically if you know what you're doing, and wait for sales, you can build a case from scratch cheaper than getting one at a major chain with a name-brand rig. But you don't get the warranty with it either, for what that's worth.
Custom making the OS, OTOH, well, that's like having your own flavor of Linux.
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Of course, $10,000 hammers, remember?
Typically if you know what you're doing, and wait for sales, you can build a case from scratch cheaper than getting one at a major chain with a name-brand rig. But you don't get the warranty with it either, for what that's worth.
Custom making the OS, OTOH, well, that's like having your own flavor of Linux.
That's so nerdy...or shall I say nerd-eh?
/runslikehell
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Yes, run from the fearsome Canadian. Rawr. OK, I did the monster thing, can I get paid and go back to my trailer?
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And as mentioned not all agree. I don't for example in my games.
Firewall is a listed in programs and as such is limited by System (which in turn is limited by Response).
I don't allow custom links being built from scratch. You buy a shelf link and you can upgrade a module by as much as +2.
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And as mentioned not all agree. I don't for example in my games.
Firewall is a listed in programs and as such is limited by System (which in turn is limited by Response).
Is it ? In the wireless chapter it is listed among the Matrix attributes, not the Programs. In fact, it is listed before the System rating (granted, that's just alphabetical order at work). No reference is made to the System or the Response, nor any reference to the Firewall in their description. The word program is never used to describe it. It also runs on the commlink and the commlink only, and cannot be loaded into a persona or an agent like programs, or run on other nodes you have accessed.
Granted, in the gear section it is in the same table as the programs, and the table is labeled Matrix Programs, but then System is there too, and so are autosofts, which are not Matrix Programs. I believe that table is just mislabeled.
For me, the Firewall is just so important in a Wireless world than it runs independently of the System, possibly in part on its own dedicated hardware... It is not limited by System, nor does it count toward the number of programs running before the Response drops (otherwise, how could a Meta Link run anything ? Response of 1, if the Firewall is a program then it must count as the one program it can run without having the Response drop, any attempt to run anything else will drop the Response to 0 :()
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I think we need a response from one of the Powers-That-Be that made the game system here to tell us how they intended things to work. Had a talk with another person in my group who GMs and he said that he thinks it's a program. Myself, I can see the validity in both claims, but I will likely rule the other way until an official word is given on the matter, but I try to keep the game fun and give the PCs the advantage they should have. They are the "heroes" of the game and thus should be 'better' than the opposition. Challenge is all well and good, but it isn't fun for your character to be weaker than the enemies.
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And as mentioned not all agree. I don't for example in my games.
Firewall is a listed in programs and as such is limited by System (which in turn is limited by Response).
Is it ? In the wireless chapter it is listed among the Matrix attributes, not the Programs. In fact, it is listed before the System rating (granted, that's just alphabetical order at work). No reference is made to the System or the Response, nor any reference to the Firewall in their description. The word program is never used to describe it. It also runs on the commlink and the commlink only, and cannot be loaded into a persona or an agent like programs, or run on other nodes you have accessed.
Granted, in the gear section it is in the same table as the programs, and the table is labeled Matrix Programs, but then System is there too, and so are autosofts, which are not Matrix Programs. I believe that table is just mislabeled.
For me, the Firewall is just so important in a Wireless world than it runs independently of the System, possibly in part on its own dedicated hardware... It is not limited by System, nor does it count toward the number of programs running before the Response drops (otherwise, how could a Meta Link run anything ? Response of 1, if the Firewall is a program then it must count as the one program it can run without having the Response drop, any attempt to run anything else will drop the Response to 0 :()
1. FIrewall is described as software. Software is a program to me. and as you noted it is listed in table of programs.
2. MetaLink can run ergonomic programs. then again it isn't meant to be running programs, just be used for communication.
Nobody has to agree, it's just the way I interpret the rules in my games. I bumped in only to confirm that like Dude posted there are people who disagree.
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SR4A pg 221, bottom right column, Firewall is a Matrix attribute of the commlink.
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SR4A pg 221, bottom right column, Firewall is a Matrix attribute of the commlink.
There is that, however, the opponents of Firewall not being limited by System and Response argue that because it is software means that it is in fact a program (just not one that has access to the program options). This is why I say we need an actual official response as to the intent.
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ok i've tried to read that statement 8 times now and still can't wrap my brain around what you're trying to say.
4 attributes to commlinks, 2 are hardware (processor for response and wireless transmitter for signal) and 2 are software (system and firewall) running on that hardware, so in spite of our wishes, the software will be limited by the hardware capability.
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Hey, I agree with you. I was just giving the argument I see being used for the other view. Though a lot who argue that view will probably claim "overpowered" or "imbalanced" too.
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under matrix attributes:
the other two are software running on that hardware.
firewall and system running on that hardware. NOT firewall is running on that system.
under firewall:
Firewall is the device’s built-in security software
it is a software, like the system, yes, but its built-in + apart from the system
firewall doesn't count to the processor limit and is not limited by system.
also not limited by response. system is, because it says so under system. but not firewall.
firewall is a quick an efficient traffic filter, nothing like a big clumsy system.
firewall and system are both listed in a table with matrix programs, but i am sure the developers were just lazy to put them in an extra table.
the text description of those two softwares speak otherwise.
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Firewall has it's own built-in processor, like video cards do today, done.
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And on the other side, since there is Response listed as the hardware capability of the whole comlink, IMO there is no way to interpret this that Firewall should be running on higher response. And since System is limited by response, so is Firewall.
Also...note that r6 response/signal upgrade is availability 16, so for character creation you can use this only if you have Restricted gear quality
Firewall has it's own built-in processor, like video cards do today, done.
on the other side upgrading Firewall:
Upgrading a device is simply a matter of having the proper hardware module (for Response and Signal) or software package (for Firewall and System).
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availabilty is irrelevant. it only serve to establish difficulty of getting something that is.
in my games you cannot have firewall 6 on system 1 and that's it.
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On the other side, there is lot of Sample nodes in unwired with Firewall higher than System rating or response... :P
Some errata on this? Or FAQ?
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in my games you cannot have firewall 6 on system 1 and that's it.
probably because you think a firewall works on the system.
but actually it works beside(independent from) it.
a firewall is like well configured router, you don't need high end hardware for that.
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Does the maximum program rating limited by the System rating apply to Firewall?
No; System does not limit the ratings of Firewall since it is a Matrix Attribute. Agents, Common Use, Hacking, and all other types of programs running on the device are limited by the System rating.
And since Response limit is only listed for System RAW, that means firewall can act independently on it. Ok. I`ve been convinced...
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On the other side, there is lot of Sample nodes in unwired with Firewall higher than System rating or response... :P
Some errata on this? Or FAQ?
The FAQ exists and is explicit in this regard.
http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/ (http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/)
However, many people disregard the official FAQ because it also contains answers that appear to be directly contradictory to the rules as written.
The part that is explicit states:
Does the maximum program rating limited by the System rating apply to Firewall?
No; System does not limit the ratings of Firewall since it is a Matrix Attribute. Agents, Common Use, Hacking, and all other types of programs running on the device are limited by the System rating.
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However, many people disregard the official FAQ because it also contains answers that appear to be directly contradictory to the rules as written.
Thanks for clarification.
The FAQ is slightly outdated and in situation where its contradictory, i prefer more recent books.
In cases where the rules in books missing some explanation and give space to argue, i consider the FAQ as legit RAI at least. .. as in this case ;-)
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However, many people disregard the official FAQ because it also contains answers that appear to be directly contradictory to the rules as written.
Thanks for clarification.
The FAQ is slightly outdated and in situation where its contradictory, i prefer more recent books.
In cases where the rules in books missing some explanation and give space to argue, i consider the FAQ as legit RAI at least. .. as in this case ;-)
Whereas I need something other than the FAQ for anything. The contradictory elements of the FAQ render the entire document entirely unreliable in my opinion, so I disregard the whole thing. Should it ever be fixed so that it does not contradict the rules on ANY aspect, then I will consider it, but until then, it may as well not exist.
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On the other side, there is lot of Sample nodes in unwired with Firewall higher than System rating or response... :P
Some errata on this? Or FAQ?
The same unwired lists a lot of examples of nodes with System greater than Response. There are no examples violating the rule of Response >= System >= Program. I do believe that it was another author that written Core and Unwired, with other intents. I do think however that in case of doubts core is overriding other rulebooks.
Since there is no direct RAW that states that Firewall is exception from the rule I see no reason to rule otherwise. I believe that Response (hardware) limits software (System and Firewall) that can be run upon it. It's simple enough to upgrade response to install higher firewall, so it's not a showstopper for anyone willing to do so.
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Since there is no direct RAW that states that Firewall is exception from the rule I see no reason to rule otherwise. I believe that Response (hardware) limits software (System and Firewall) that can be run upon it. It's simple enough to upgrade response to install higher firewall, so it's not a showstopper for anyone willing to do so.
according to your way of ruling and since both(system and firewall) are listed in the matrix programs table, they will both count for the process limit in your games? meaning a response 2 link without any other programs, automatically gets reduced to response 1 due to overload?
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Firewall is part of the Operating System. System and Firewall attributes are derived from the Operating System (the last sentence is from the despised Unwired pg48).
The processor limit is based on System attribute. So no, neither System nor Firewall program affect the Response, but all are limited by Response rating.
The logic is simple. No hardware can run at full capacity software that is designed to run on better machine. No software component can be run at the higher rating than the frame.
RL examples.
You can run win xp on 386, just don't expect it to work at the speed of running it on laptop from 2002. On the other hand there is no noticable performance upgrade on running it on laptop from 2010.
You can open old version attachments of excel in old powerpoint, you can't open newer ones unless you strip them of tags, that old version cannot interpret.
SR examples.
You can run System 6, Firewall 6 Operating System at Response 3. But the effective attributes will be reduced to 3.
You can run Attack 6 program, on System 3, but the effective rating would be reduced to 3.
And the discussed example. You can run Firewall 6 at System 3, but the effective attribute will be reduced to 3. Note that in Core no OS have Firewall higher than System and none of the example runners have links that despite some of them having modifed commlinks violate the rule of
Response >=System>=Firewall,Program ratings
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not trying to be too contradictory, however i think that if this question ever comes up in my game, i will have to go with the hardware sets the maximum rating for all software installed. system and firewall are independent of each other, and they may be equal to the maximum rating of the hardware. the way most of it's written, the firewall seems to be on it's own subprocessor within the hardware, and that's how i'll run it.
gods only know why they stated that firewall is part of the OS, i con't even care anymore at this point.
gotta love GM caveat.
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Not really understand why anyone would install more powerful hardware for firewall than for the system. Nor why all of you think that firewall is separate device when you got within the commlink GPS, music player, calendar, notepad, browsing tool, edit tools, hacking tools, antivirus tools, analyze tools all of which are programs, that go under integrated device with a single rating but you insist on having separate piece of hardware for running higher rating firewall.
I feel so exasperated, when I see players running around with silly rating 2 commlink but boasting firewall of 6 just because it helps them feel more secure. for god sake if they want to have rating 6 firewall let them buy response 6, system 6 first that's all.
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Cyberdecks, the hardening was always decribed as hardware. I pretty much figure comlinks are sort of the same way in that regard.
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Hardening is protection against EMP - something completely different.
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i'm just saying the firewall is not part of the OS. the rating of the hardware is what i'm saying limits the rating of the firewall.
if one of my players wants to run around with rating 2 device loaded with rating 6 firewall, they paid for it and they can have it, but it won't run higher than the response rating anyhow. so they paid extra for 4 unusable rating points of firewall. cash sink and wasted space in the memory too, amen.
the fact the firewall is software and must be dealt with as such (price listed with other software) just it easier to find in the books. i've been feeling like the firewall should be treated as firmware, to sidestep all the confusion of taking up system resources (or even falling under system at all).
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So you'd allow on Response 6 running System 3 to run a Firewall of 6.
Which basically means, that you'd want to run at full capacity McAffee's Firewall from year 2012 to run on Win 3.1 from 1990 installed on laptop from 2012?
Good luck.
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yup, exactly, though your current tech analogy fails.
assuming i had a laptop with built-in router/firewall, with the best hardware i could buy, bought the latest firmware and drivers for the router and then a midlevel OS, say redhat linux for noobs.
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Here's a direct quote from SR3, page 206 on Hardening in that system.
Hardening
Hardening represents internal deck programs specifically designed to reinforce the deck's resistance to invasive code such as viruses, gray and Black IC, etc.
I looked that up mainly to confirm for myself that Hardening incorporated more in SR3 than in SR4, but I felt that I should share the knowledge once I discovered that I was thinking correctly.
As to the Response-System-Firewall question, as I've said for now, I'm going to keep ruling that Firewall is restricted by System until I see something official coming from the design team at CGL saying otherwise (I will not include the FAQ until the contradictory sections of it are repaired).
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Firewall is part of the Operating System. System and Firewall attributes are derived from the Operating System (the last sentence is from the despised Unwired pg48).
Yes, but it doesn't say Firewall is based on System. An OS has a System rating, but its not the only things that defines an OS. Firewall is part of the OS too. The OS has not one rating, but two. System and Firewall together define the capability of the OS. How well it can run other programs and how well it protects. Two different things, two different ratings, totally independent from each other. Both together form the OS.
They are as independent from each other as Response and Signal. Sure, for sending and receiving a signal you will need hardware too, but why would you limit the signal rating by response. Its two different things!
Not really understand why anyone would install more powerful hardware for firewall than for the system.
You don't. Sorry, but i can only assume, that you don't know what a firewall in RL does. Every broadband router has a firewall inside. You don't need an extra OS for it, you almost don't even need hardware for it, because its only a tiny, tiny packet filter. That's why it can't be limited by either System or Response rating.
Since the operating systems of peripheral nodes are far more limited and focused, their System rating is not restricted by the Response rating, as is the case with standard nodes
For peripheral nodes it says, that the System is not limited by Response. They did not write that Firewall is not limited by Response.
In the table next to it, you see examples, where the Firewall and System is greater than Response, even some Firewall greater than System.
This can only be explained in two ways:
- they have lots of printing errors in that table, which they didn't even fix in the errata
- its already taken for granted that the Firewall can be higher than System or Response, so its not needed to mention it again
All this together points obviously to the second case, that its taken for granted!
I rest my case!
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I have just one thing to say on this subject:
Clips.
... ... ...
From a real-world standpoint, a proper Firewall is a hardware device, running firmware or drivers like any other machine. However, the Shadowrun Rules and Reality are only tangentially connected, common sense and real-world precedent are pretty well useless, and said rules are quite murky on the subject... so it all comes down to the personal bias of whoever is reading them and what they want them to say.
There is the FAQ, and it's quite clear on the subject, but there are plenty of people who foo-foo the FAQ and refuse to accept it as valid evidence of Rules As Intended.
Speaking as someone who's fallen off that cliff a time or two, I think this discussion may be getting just ever so close to the edge of where there's no more sense in continuing debating the point: either you accept the FAQ as valid, except where it contradicts the RAW, in which case the answer is clear as a bell, or you disregard the whole thing, in which case there is no clear answer and it becomes one big circle jerk.
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+1
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Seconded!
+1
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I have just one thing to say on this subject:
Clips.
OH! Can I start the argument now???
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I have just one thing to say on this subject:
Clips.
OH! Can I start the argument now???
No! Bad CanRay! *whacks CanRay with a rolled up newspaper*
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I have just one thing to say on this subject:
Clips.
OH! Can I start the argument now???
No! Bad CanRay! *whacks CanRay with a rolled up newspaper*
no good he will just rip it as part of the game
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I have just one thing to say on this subject:
Clips.
OH! Can I start the argument now???
No! Bad CanRay! *whacks CanRay with a rolled up newspaper*
Hands All the BanHammer. Blue arcs of electricity spark across it's carved dead-black head. "Try this instead."
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I have just one thing to say on this subject:
Clips.
OH! Can I start the argument now???
No! Bad CanRay! *whacks CanRay with a rolled up newspaper*
Hands All the BanHammer. Blue arcs of electricity spark across it's carved dead-black head. "Try this instead."
Wait. Thats JackHammers brother!!!
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I have just one thing to say on this subject:
Clips.
OH! Can I start the argument now???
No! Bad CanRay! *whacks CanRay with a rolled up newspaper*
*Whimpers and Sobs* I'll be good. :'(
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I have just one thing to say on this subject:
Clips.
OH! Can I start the argument now???
No! Bad CanRay! *whacks CanRay with a rolled up newspaper*
Hands All the BanHammer. Blue arcs of electricity spark across it's carved dead-black head. "Try this instead."
Wait. Thats JackHammers brother!!!
You have to say that in a Randy Savage voice.
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Wow, I don't feel so bad for being totally confused about this. Like to see something coming from the designers to clear this all up though.
Thanks for the various input and ideas.
Raven