Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: LostProxy on <09-17-11/0007:02>
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So I'm at an impasse. I want a spirit killing weapon and I am deciding between these two. I think I broke down the pros/cons pretty well but inform me if I missed any.
Gauss Rifle
+More damage per individual shot
+Better AP (Depending on grenade ammo)
+Range
+Cheaper ammo
-Lacks versatility
-Cannot justify being able to move at a fast pace with it.
-Requires battery packs which depending on the situation may not always be reachable.
GL-67 Grenade Launcher modified with burst fire (no way an option with the gauss rifle) and using grenades that explode on impact.
+Higher damage with burst fire (3 high explosives grenades = at least 20 damage)
+Versatility (when not blowing up stuff gas and splash grenades are an option)
+Can justify character mobility
+Can hit multiple targets with AoE.
- To get armor divided in half requires white phosphorus grenades (expensive)
-For damage to count must fire bursts which will burn through ammo quicker.
-AP against higher force spirits is an issue (Force 8+)
-Because of AoE cannot be used against hostiles too close to allies.
So maybe someone can help me out on this?
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If your driver is spirit killing, neither. Consider these options.
1) FA weapon using stick and shock, firing narrow full burst. That's 15 + hits DV, and it halves spirit's armor. Still expensive, but very multipurpose.
2) "Alkali" capsule bullet. Halves spirit's armor. Does DV+ Rating - (penetration resist) for DV combat turns - a decent DV and even an F12 will die -- eventually. Primary disadvantage: damage is not done till end of combat turn. Secondary disadvantage: at over 100¥ per bullet (not box of 10) it's expensive ammo. (Acid damage rule: SR4A 163. Capsule rounds AR 34. Alkali AR 80.)
3) Shotgun Flare ammo. Fire damage so halved armor. Cheap (compared to many of the other choices). Disadvantages: -2 DV, allows +2 penetration resist.
4) (with GM assistance for avail and cost): "Silver bullet" (AR34) using Thermite as the 'allergenic substance'. AR 34.
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1) FA weapon using stick and shock, firing narrow full burst. That's 15 + hits DV, and it halves spirit's armor. Still expensive, but very multipurpose.
But it's still only 6+nethits for detarmining whether you beat the hardened armor or not, so doesn't really work against high power spirits that the OP is abviously looking a weapon against.
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Between the two choices, I have to say that Gauss comes out on top.
There's just too many situations where grenades are a bad, bad idea. High scatter and firing multiple of them make it even worse.
Only reason to use a GL's, it and its ammo will be a lot easier to get than a gauss rifle or its ammo.
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1) FA weapon using stick and shock, firing narrow full burst. That's 15 + hits DV, and it halves spirit's armor. Still expensive, but very multipurpose.
But it's still only 6+nethits for detarmining whether you beat the hardened armor or not, so doesn't really work against high power spirits that the OP is abviously looking a weapon against.
Really? See, I'd always added the 9 to represent the fact it's (allegedly) 10 bullets hitting. I read it not as kinetic but due to the multiples. Thus 9+6+net hits.
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OK, between the comment above and an equal remark in the Rules >> Drones,mech arms etc thread, I figured out what I was doing wrong.
DV would only apply if the spirit could be stunned. Since it can't, DV gets ignored.
I even know where I picked up the error -- DV does add for acid damage (in fact specifically mentioned).
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No matter what amount of bullets hit, they simply don't have enough power to pierce the armor.
It should have been mentioned more clearly in SR4A, but it's there on SR4A p.150, at the bottom of the table:
*Autofire does not count when comparing the modified DV to the modified Armor
When shooting a heavily armored troll, it just means he'll have to soak 16S instead of 16P, still a good chance of knocking him out of the fight. But against vehicles, if your bullets can't pierce the armor, it won't do squat.
Spirits can take stun damage. But only if the amount of stun damage is enough to "pierce" their hardened armor.
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No matter what amount of bullets hit, they simply don't have enough power to pierce the armor.
It should have been mentioned more clearly in SR4A, but it's there on SR4A p.150, at the bottom of the table:
*Autofire does not count when comparing the modified DV to the modified Armor
When shooting a heavily armored troll, it just means he'll have to soak 16S instead of 16P, still a good chance of knocking him out of the fight. But against vehicles, if your bullets can't pierce the armor, it won't do squat.
Spirits can take stun damage. But only if the amount of stun damage is enough to "pierce" their hardened armor.
That makes no sense. According to the sequence of the preceding page, the sole purpose of comparing modified DV to modified armor is to determine whether the damage is P or S - which is where "piercing" their armor comes into effect.
1 (third in sequence p 149): Roll attacker's skill + attrib +/- modifiers VS defender's skill + attrib +/- modifiers. If the attacker's number is higher the attack hits. If it is lower it misses. Ties only count for 'touch damage'.
2: Add net hits + base DV +/- DV mods (per page 150 NOT including autofire mods) and compare to armor +/- mods. Then:
If the attack causes Physical damage, compare the modified Damage Value to the modified Armor Value. If the DV does not exceed the Armor, then the attack inflicts Stun rather than Physical damage.
And I'm confused: if spirits can be stunned then this step is skipped but spirits can still be attacked.
3: Now for damage the autofire is added back in, and defender rolls dice poll of attribute + modified armor to reduce the results. If brought to zero it no longer applies.
That's from the rules. The autofire DV doesn't help on the initial hits (which roll against defender's defense), and it doesn't count in cases where damage might be P instead of S, but otherwise it's included.
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And I'm confused: if spirits can be stunned then this step is skipped but spirits can still be attacked.
That step is just different for spirits, because they have Immunity to Normal Weapons witch acts as a hardened armor against all non-magical attacks at a rating of Forcex2.
So you compare your attacks modified damage(base DV + nethits) to the spirits ItNW-AP, if your attacks damage is less it does nothing and if its higher it does what ever damage type is.
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And I'm confused: if spirits can be stunned then this step is skipped but spirits can still be attacked.
That step is just different for spirits, because they have Immunity to Normal Weapons witch acts as a hardened armor against all non-magical attacks at a rating of Forcex2.
So you compare your attacks modified damage(base DV + nethits) to the spirits ItNW-AP, if your attacks damage is less it does nothing and if its higher it does what ever damage type is.
Can you show me this exception in the rules, please?
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Can you show me this exception in the rules, please?
Rules for both the Immunity to Normal Weapons and Hardened Armor critter powers are on page 295 of the Corebooks Anniversary edition.
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Thank you. Yeah, that helps. and frustrates.
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Trying again. (note, doing so because I really, really hate the negatives of both the OP's weapon choices AND because I'm trying to get rules down. His choices may be better anyway.) If I've made an error below, you're invited to point it out. Again, adding a rules cite (book, page, and heading) would be useful if you do.
Full auto (again), WIDE full burst, and don't forget the tracer ammo.
Assuming 24 dice for attrib+skill+ mods (including 5 for smartlink and tracer) that's ~8 hits. An F12 spirit gets 12-9=3 dice for 1 defense, leaving me 7 hits. Add 6 for the ammo is 13 net hits. That beats the sprite's 12 (hardened). For damage, then, the sprite rolls 24-1 (most auto weapons are -1 AP) for ~8 defense against penetration. The autofire does 4 hits. At that rate it'll take four shots to kill the sprite.
If this is true, a good mod is high velocity. The -11 instead of -9 to the sprite's defense dice will (usually) increase hits and final damage by 1. That's enough to drop the F12 sprite in 3 instead of 4 actions.
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Trying again. (note, doing so because I really, really hate the negatives of both the OP's weapon choices AND because I'm trying to get rules down. His choices may be better anyway.) If I've made an error below, you're invited to point it out. Again, adding a rules cite (book, page, and heading) would be useful if you do.
Full auto (again), WIDE full burst, and don't forget the tracer ammo.
Assuming 24 dice for attrib+skill+ mods (including 5 for smartlink and tracer) that's ~8 hits. An F12 spirit gets 12-9=3 dice for 1 defense, leaving me 7 hits. Add 6 for the ammo is 13 net hits. That beats the sprite's 12 (hardened). For damage, then, the sprite rolls 24-1 (most auto weapons are -1 AP) for ~8 defense against penetration. The autofire does 4 hits. At that rate it'll take four shots to kill the sprite.
If this is true, a good mod is high velocity. The -11 instead of -9 to the sprite's defense dice will (usually) increase hits and final damage by 1. That's enough to drop the F12 sprite in 3 instead of 4 actions.
Self-correction: tracer can't be used with smartgun. +3 for full burst OR +2 for smartgun.
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Wait I'm confused I thought it was damage plus net hits. How does that other stuff apply? Like negative from wide bursts and what not? I thought that doesn't apply. Only AP.
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Wait I'm confused I thought it was damage plus net hits. How does that other stuff apply? Like negative from wide bursts and what not? I thought that doesn't apply. Only AP.
The wide burst affects the roll to determine number of hits; it subtracts from the target's defense dice and affects net hits before armor comes into play.
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But ItNW is only effected by AP. It specifically says in hardened that it is only changed by AP so the only way to lower it is AP or attacks that divide armor in half like the Gauss rifle and white phosphorus grenades.
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Wait I'm confused I thought it was damage plus net hits. How does that other stuff apply? Like negative from wide bursts and what not? I thought that doesn't apply. Only AP.
Kirk's numbers look right up until the end when he get's the spirit's armor wrong. Your confusion is because he's sometimes just saying the wrong words when he explains where those numbers came from. To clarify:
Assume a dicepool of 24 after all modifications have been taken into account. On average 24 dice will generate 8 hits.
A force 12 SPIRIT (not sprite) will have a defense of at least 12 dice (realistically we would use 14 or 15), which will be reduced by 9 dice because we are doing a full burst, wide as complex action to attack it.
This means the spirit has 3 dice (unless it chooses to go full defense). On 3 dice, the spirit will generate on average one hit. This reduces our attack's net hits from 8 to 7.
Kirk then mentions "adding 6 from the ammo". Presumably what he meant was the weapon we are using has a base DV of 6 (a typical assault rifle). We add the 7 net hits to the 6 base DV to get our modified DV of 13.
We then compare this modified DV against the spirits modified (hardened) armor of 24 minus 1 for armor penetration (the typical AP value for an assault rifle). 13 is less than 24 so the spirit is only tickled by our attack and proceeds to go about it's business unimpeded.
So that went poorly.
We get a better result with Stick and Shock ammo because it has much more massive armor penetration than regular ammo or tracer ammo. We would be comparing our 13 DV against a hardened armor of 24/2 = 12. So we'd actually hurt the spirit in this case. It then roll body (we'll just go with 12 for simplicity) + 12 (modified armor) for a average of 8 hits against our 13 DV for 5 damage.
We'd almost certainly be better off doing two long bursts, wide instead of single full burst, wide per turn.
Furthermore we probably should be making a called shot against the spirit. We'd drop our attack dice pool from 24 to 20, but our base damage goes from 6S(e) to 10S(e). With S&S's massive AP, we only need two net hits to get past the ItNW on a force 12 spirit.
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My GM banned SnS so the gauss rifle and the grenade launcher are my only option.
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My GM banned SnS so the gauss rifle and the grenade launcher are my only option.
Well, if you can get your hands on a gauss rifle (24F availability), you'll absolutely shred any spirit that comes after you. A grenade launcher is neat, but fighting spirits is not really what it's designed for, especially since you can't stage up grenade damage with your net hits.
Looking back at your original post, I'm unclear how you are getting a figure of ~ 20 damage on burst fire with a grenade launcher. Where does that number come from?
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War on direct fire grenades.
Occasionally, a gamemaster will have more than one grenade
or other explosive simultaneously a ecting a single target. In these
cases, treat the damage as a single blast with a Damage Values equal
to the sum of the highest Damage Value of one explosion plus half
the DV of the other explosions.
Plus this
When using a grenade launcher with contact-triggered
minigrenades, you can re directly at a target. You must declare
that your character is doing so before the attack. Make a Heavy
Weapons + Agility Opposed Test against the target, using the
normal rules for ranged combat (p. 150, SR4A), using net hits to
add to the base Damage Value of the grenade for only the target
that was attacked. e grenade also damages those within its blast
radius normally, using its base Damage Value and ignoring the net
hits from the attack. If the attack misses, roll for scatter (with a
reduction for net hits) to determine where the grenade detonates,
resolving the blast as normal.
So 3 HE grenades = 20 + net hits. 10 + 5 + 5
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Wait I'm confused I thought it was damage plus net hits. How does that other stuff apply? Like negative from wide bursts and what not? I thought that doesn't apply. Only AP.
Kirk's numbers look right up until the end when he get's the spirit's armor wrong. Your confusion is because he's sometimes just saying the wrong words when he explains where those numbers came from. To clarify:
Assume a dicepool of 24 after all modifications have been taken into account. On average 24 dice will generate 8 hits.
A force 12 SPIRIT (not sprite) will have a defense of at least 12 dice (realistically we would use 14 or 15), which will be reduced by 9 dice because we are doing a full burst, wide as complex action to attack it.
This means the spirit has 3 dice (unless it chooses to go full defense). On 3 dice, the spirit will generate on average one hit. This reduces our attack's net hits from 8 to 7.
Kirk then mentions "adding 6 from the ammo". Presumably what he meant was the weapon we are using has a base DV of 6 (a typical assault rifle). We add the 7 net hits to the 6 base DV to get our modified DV of 13.
We then compare this modified DV against the spirits modified (hardened) armor of 24 minus 1 for armor penetration (the typical AP value for an assault rifle). 13 is less than 24 so the spirit is only tickled by our attack and proceeds to go about it's business unimpeded.
So that went poorly.
We get a better result with Stick and Shock ammo because it has much more massive armor penetration than regular ammo or tracer ammo. We would be comparing our 13 DV against a hardened armor of 24/2 = 12. So we'd actually hurt the spirit in this case. It then roll body (we'll just go with 12 for simplicity) + 12 (modified armor) for a average of 8 hits against our 13 DV for 5 damage.
We'd almost certainly be better off doing two long bursts, wide instead of single full burst, wide per turn.
Furthermore we probably should be making a called shot against the spirit.
Thank you, but two corrections and clarifications. First, I was assuming stick and shock for the +6. Thus it's 7 net hits plus 6 from the ammo, hence, using the halved armor (12) of the spirit (not sprite, again thanks). Which you demonstrate with your later paragraph.
Second, I keep thinking like the technomancer I tend to play. Remote control fire through a drone is a complex action, hence using the full burst instead of long. Of course, I also tend to focus fire from three separate weapons against hard targets. (Oh - and long burst is only +/-5. Against an F12 spirit it might not be enough.)
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Thank you, but two corrections and clarifications. First, I was assuming stick and shock for the +6. Thus it's 7 net hits plus 6 from the ammo, hence, using the halved armor (12) of the spirit (not sprite, again thanks). Which you demonstrate with your later paragraph.
We'll that was a bit unclear. You referenced Tracer ammo, and you took into account the weapon's AP -1 without referencing S&S's AP-half.
Does S&S's AP stack with the weapon's AP? I haven't been doing that....
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Agreed I was unclear, hence thank you for the clarification.
And the way I took it, yes the AP reduction from weapons applies -- but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
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And the way I took it, yes the AP reduction from weapons applies -- but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
No it doesn't, just like the guns normal damage code doesn't matter.
S&S has it's own damage code and AP value.
My GM banned SnS so the gauss rifle and the grenade launcher are my only option.
Well you could also go for a called shot(+4 to damage option) with Deviance ex Shocker, that does minimum of 13S(e) witch beats the ItNW of a force 12 spirit.
And hey, that baby is completely legal with out anykind of permits. ;D
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He seems to love Guardian spirits. Melee range of guardian is a plan F for F it I'm going to die anyway :P
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one thought for trying to up the damage of the grenade launcher is to use MRSI software - that way the damage codes add together and the spirit would get a single roll to soak it, right?