Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zen Shooter on <08-14-11/1139:56>
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The sensor range rules are confusing. SR4A 334 says that "each [sensor] package has a sensor range that indicates the limits of the sensor's reach (see the Signal Rating Table, p. 222)". I presume this means that unless the description of the individual types of sensor states a specific range, I compare the sensor's rating to the Signal Rating Table and that gives me the range.
But when I do that, I'm surprised to discover that the the rating 1 sensors on most civilian vehicles can't detect anything more than 40 meters away - not even the cameras, by a strict interpretation of the rules. One wonders how the Pilot can maneuver through traffic at freeway speeds of 90 meters per turn or more when it can't detect brick walls at a range of 41 meters.
But the individual entries on the Signal Rating Table offer examples of the kinds of sensors typical of each rating, and vehicle autonav sensors are listed at rating 3, with a range of 400 meters, which is more useful. However, that still says that a metahuman observing the world through a set of vehicle sensors will not be able to see as far as he could with his Mark I Eyeball. With sensor performance as poor as that, who would want to leave the driving up to the car?
If I presume to use the Signal rating of the vehicle to determine sensor range, I get a useful range limit, but I still run into the problem that the vehicle can't detect Mount Rainier at 401 m, which, at 90 meters every three seconds, is less than fifteen seconds down the road. So why would anyone let their vehicle drive itself?
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There ya go, trying to make the game reflect the real world (grin).
Here's my reading - take with some caution.
The critical things to note is that all sensors talk to all sensors and that there is no lag.
Your car reports what IT knows. It gets told what else is out there which is out of range.
The only times that the ranges matter are when:
a) the other sensors are spread far apart, putting yours out of reach;
b) somebody doesn't WANT to share information, so the system has to rely on its own sensors.
Functionally, driving sensors operate in a specially designed limited flexibility TACnet.
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But when I do that, I'm surprised to discover that the the rating 1 sensors on most civilian vehicles can't detect anything more than 40 meters away - not even the cameras, by a strict interpretation of the rules. One wonders how the Pilot can maneuver through traffic at freeway speeds of 90 meters per turn or more when it can't detect brick walls at a range of 41 meters.
Uhm, vehicles with are not drones have a Signal Rating of 5 or 6 (not 100% sure which, it's in the table with the sensor capacities). I think your are confusing the Sensor Rating and the sensor's Signal Rating ;)
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I think a little more clarity can also be found on p.167 where Vehicle Attributes are detailed under the Vehicle Combat section. When you jump down to Senors:
Sensors are the vehicular equivalent of the Intuition attribute. Almost all vehicles in Shadowrun have some kind of sensor array, if only to interact with GridGuide and other traffic network systems. Only retro pre-Crash vehicles lack sensors, and most of them are retrofitted with add-on sensors.
When driving a vehicle, a driver may use the Sensor attribute instead of Intuition when making Perception Tests and other Intuition linked Success Tests. Drones always use the Sensor attribute for
Perception Tests.
The ratings found in the table on p.351 relate to making Success Tests rather than the features and functions found w/ the Sensor Packages (which are purchased separately) detailed on p.334.
Regards,
AJC
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Which makes no sense and would probably be illegal in most jurisdictions, because the typical metahuman has an Intuition 3, while the typical civilian vehicle has Sensors 1.
In any case, that still doesn't answer the question of what is the maximum distance at which vehicle A can detect vehicle B?
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Per the table on p.222, vehicle autonav sensors have a rating signal rating of 3 for a range of 400m.
AJC
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In any case, that still doesn't answer the question of what is the maximum distance at which vehicle A can detect vehicle B?
As I said before, that's determined by the Sensor rating of the package. Page 334, SR4A.
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Sengir, if what you mean by that is that I should compare the Sensor Rating to the Signal Rating Table, SR4A 222, as the text you've cited seems to imply, then I find out that the typical civilian vehicle with a Sensor 1 cannot detect anything more than 40 meters away, which makes the sensors useless for a vehicle traveling at speeds of 30 meters per second or more. A metahuman using their eyes to look out through a windshield would be able to detect metahuman and car-sized objects at twenty times that distance, so why bother having sensors at all? Besides that, the typical metahuman is rolling Int 3 + Perception 3 for six dice when using their eyes. If they were using sensors, they'd get Sensors 1 + Perception 3 for four dice.
Even military vehicles with Sensor 4 can only detect an object a kilometer away. In a near-future setting where armored combat is conducted largely with missiles, that's of very little use.
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Sensor range and signal range are not the same thing. Signal is how far away can the communications link reach.
Most sensors have an unlisted range. They're limited, essentially, to line of sight. That's why the camera and the laser range-finder don't have ranges. The sensor rating isn't for range, it's for effectiveness at sorting signal from noise.
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Sengir, if what you mean by that is that I should compare the Sensor Rating to the Signal Rating Table, SR4A 222, as the text you've cited seems to imply, then I find out that the typical civilian vehicle with a Sensor 1 cannot detect anything more than 40 meters away,
Once more and just for you:
- The "Sensor" entry for each vehicle denotes the SENSOR rating, determining how "good" the sensor "sees"
- The "Signal" entry for each type of sensor (like minidrone, vehicle, ...) is the SIGNAL rating, determining how far the sensor "sees"
A vehicle sensor has an invariable Signal rating of 5, meaning it has a range of 4 km even with a Sensor rating of just 1. Improving the Sensor rating will improve the sensor's dice pool for Perception tests, but won't affect the range.
Sensor range and signal range are not the same thing. Signal is how far away can the communications link reach.
Sorry, but RTFM:
Each package has a sensor range that indicates the limits of the sensor’s reach (see the Signal Rating Table, p. 222), though some specific sensors have their own maximum ranges
SR4A, p. 334.
And the referenced Signal Rating Table explicitly mentions some examples of sensor ranges.
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Sensor range and signal range are not the same thing. Signal is how far away can the communications link reach.
Sorry, but RTFM:
Each package has a sensor range that indicates the limits of the sensor’s reach (see the Signal Rating Table, p. 222), though some specific sensors have their own maximum ranges
SR4A, p. 334.
And the referenced Signal Rating Table explicitly mentions some examples of sensor ranges.
... OK, I grant the point. I think it's stupid, but I grant the point. On the other hand, my earlier comment upthread stands. When the pilot is driving the car it is not relying solely upon its own sensors. It is also relying on the sensors of the environment with which it is communication.
ZenShooter is wanting to know the maximum range at which it can detect another vehicle. If it's in a grid-supported area that's a null question. Provided the players know about the other vehicle and want to query it, it's detected unless it's trying to hide. If it's trying to hide, range (mostly) doesn't matter.
The question is only relevant for off-grid tracking, and there things turn wonky. One of the frustrations here is that the sensor table on 222 doesn't agree with the various vehicle stats. A 3 is "Average commlinks, residential/small business wi-fi routers, vehicular autonav sensors." That makes, to me, perfect sense as no commuter car is going to go 240 km per hour. (400 m/cbt turn is 480 kph, halved for oncoming traffic limits.)
On the other hand, the typical commuter vehicle sensor rating is 1. A sensor 1 is only good for 24 kph. Sensor 2 gets 60 kph.
As a GM, my swag (and hence in part my comment) is that for tests it's a one, and for range it's a 3, which lets me resolve both that conflict and the "reality" of the situation.
ymmv, of course.
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On the other hand, the typical commuter vehicle sensor rating is 1. A sensor 1 is only good for 24 kph. Sensor 2 gets 60 kph.
*headdesk*
I officially give up. Seems like the difference between the words "sensor" and "signal" is just beyond some people's capabilities...
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On the other hand, the typical commuter vehicle sensor rating is 1. A sensor 1 is only good for 24 kph. Sensor 2 gets 60 kph.
*headdesk*
I officially give up. Seems like the difference between the words "sensor" and "signal" is just beyond some people's capabilities...
You're the one who said to RTFM.
You are the one who made the handwave reference to some table saying vehicle sensor ranges aren't the same. I found a mention that varies - the only one so far barring you doing more than a handwave - and tried to make it fit.
RTFM, page 334 says sensors (and it's specifically referencing vehicle sensors, see the paragraphs preceding on 333) use the signal rating range (page 222). That is the source of Zen Shooter's confusion.
My solution is an attempt to squeeze a reality check into the confusion.
Now if you can give an actual page citation to a table that says vehicles use a longer range, do so. If not, quit whining about what the rest of us are finding. Either way, please cease the dramatics and aspersions.
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But when I do that, I'm surprised to discover that the the rating 1 sensors on most civilian vehicles can't detect anything more than 40 meters away - not even the cameras, by a strict interpretation of the rules. One wonders how the Pilot can maneuver through traffic at freeway speeds of 90 meters per turn or more when it can't detect brick walls at a range of 41 meters.
Completely going on a limb here, and by what I've been able to garner on the matter by reading through other threads and making comparisons.
I think it may refer to a sensor's capacity in detecting signals within its reach -- which, in a Grid-assisted system, should conceivably cover all bases. So, say, a rating 1 sensor can detect signals that broadcast within its 40 meter range (which is roughly 131 feet), which likely includes the signals and such of nearby vehicles, the Grid sensors and its information relays. I think it's fair to assume that it's supposed to be wonky and mostly ineffective at a rating of 1 (unless the vehicle is exclusively confined to Grid systems). Ergo, its use may not necessarily be recommended outside of a Grid-assisted road (or street, etc.) where a brick wall being undetected at 41 meters could likely pose a very real problem.
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Don't forget that Shadowrun cars are a lot tougher than the ones we drive today. A brick wall would be less of an issue for one... (http://youtu.be/KFzfLPk6Uds)
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My original point was that the sensor rules are confusing, ambiguous, and illogical, and I think the debate in this thread proves that. If the rules were clear, there would be no debate.
Kirk's argument is that the vehicle is part of the wireless network, and receives information about traffic conditions from networked sources other than its own sensors. It would certainly make sense for a system to be designed that way, but I'm afraid the rules don't say that explicitly. It is reasonable and expedient to assume it...but that still leaves us with a problem that shadowrunners are likely to encounter, which is that if you can't or won't be part of a wireless network feeding you traffic info, your sensors aren't much good.
Sengir's argument is that vehicle sensors have a fixed signal of 5, and cites the Signal Range Table on SR4A 222, although that offers "vehicle autonav sensors" as an example of a device with Signal 3. But even if we assume that Sensors 3 have the same range as Signal 3, that's still only 400 meters, and the unaided eye can detect objects the size of an automobile, if not a metahuman or even a dog, at ranges much further than that - so why have sensors?
In any case, all of the arguments in this thread are either interpretations of very ambiguous rules or pure house-ruling. I think it was CanRay who said vehicle sensors work to the same range as line of sight, and I think for practical expediency, that's the rule I'm going to use.
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But even if we assume that Sensors 3 have the same range as Signal 3, that's still only 400 meters, and the unaided eye can detect objects the size of an automobile, if not a metahuman or even a dog, at ranges much further than that - so why have sensors?
It's my belief that sensors become more important when factoring in a vehicle's auto-piloting capabilities more than being something which could conceivably give an advantage while actually driving a vehicle oneself.
The ruling you suggest does seem to be a very fair approach for those reasons you mention.
Cheers.
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You're the one who said to RTFM.
And the manual says that microdrone sensors have Signal 2, minidrone sensors have Signal 3, small, medium, and large drone sensors have Signal 4, and vehicle sensors have Signal 5. Independently of the Sensor rating of the drone/vehicle in question.
If the difference between "sensor" and "signal" is too much for you, oh well...
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You're the one who said to RTFM.
And the manual says that microdrone sensors have Signal 2, minidrone sensors have Signal 3, small, medium, and large drone sensors have Signal 4, and vehicle sensors have Signal 5. Independently of the Sensor rating of the drone/vehicle in question.
If the difference between "sensor" and "signal" is too much for you, oh well...
What page of which manual, please?
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See above...
In any case, that still doesn't answer the question of what is the maximum distance at which vehicle A can detect vehicle B?
As I said before, that's determined by the Sensor rating of the package. Page 334, SR4A.
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See above...
In any case, that still doesn't answer the question of what is the maximum distance at which vehicle A can detect vehicle B?
As I said before, that's determined by the Sensor rating of the package. Page 334, SR4A.
You mean the one where the top row is Sensor Packages, Capacity, and SIGNAL? The one on 334, not the one the section you cited says which is on page 222? You couldn't be bothered to say, "The table on 334?"
I have been searching this frigging book by every means I know looking for Sensor because you emphasized Signal and Sensor were different, and in the end YOU are talking about SIGNAL AS SENSOR?
If the difference between "sensor" and "signal" is too much for you, oh well...
Condescension and derogation, meet your petard.
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You mean the one where the top row is Sensor Packages, Capacity, and SIGNAL? The one on 334, not the one the section you cited says which is on page 222? You couldn't be bothered to say, "The table on 334?"
The fact that it took you until now to acknowledge something I posted in my first reply to this thread (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4498.msg66075#msg66075) probably speaks volumes on why I should have stuck to my capitulation. And I will do so from now on.
PS: re-reading my older posts, I realized it should have said "Signal" here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4498.msg67231#msg67231)